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Horza Gobochul
Caldari ACME Grease and Shovel
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Posted - 2011.02.19 11:49:00 -
[1]
The limits of stargates - A brief refresher
As we all know, stargates act as the primary means of transit between the numerous solar systems of Eve. In fact, within high security space there is no alternative to using stargates when travelling between solar systems, as the only remaining option - jumping to a cynosural field is not permitted in hi-sec. We also know that stargates have limited capabilities. A carrier for example is not capable of jumping through stargates, confining him to low- and null-sec.
What is a stargate? Simply put, it is a device which transports a mass between point a and point b within a short period of time. When determining the capability of a stargate, it stands to reason to look at the mass as the limiting factor.
So far so good, but when we look at the actual capabilities of stargates in the Eve universe, it is easy to come across a some serious inconsistencies. Let me demonstrate this with a simple example. All the data that follows has been pulled from the official Eve Wiki. I'm assuming they are the same within the game. Please feel free to point out any factual errors I may have made.
The Orca has a mass of 250,000,000 kg. Well above the mass of the heaviest non-capital combat ship that I could find, which is the Vargur with a mass of 106,100,000 kg. Both ships can pass through stargates. The lightest capital ship I could find is the Nidhoggur. With its mass of 1,014,750,000 kg it may not use stargates. Thus it is safe to say that maximum mass that can be transported through a stargate must be somewhere in between that of the Orca and the Nidhoggur.
Obviously, when determining whether a ship is capable to use a stargate, it is not enough to simply look at the mass of the hull. The mass of the ship's cargo has to be taken into account as well. Let's do the math again, this time making some reasonable assumptions.
- A Megathron is on its way to battle with his cargohold full of cap booster charges 800. It can hold 35 units of cargo, with a mass of 80 kg per unit.
Hull: 98,400,000 kg Cargo: 2,800 kg Total: 98,402,800 kg
- An Orca is on his way home from a successfull mining op. His cargohold is full of Veldspar. It can hold 500,000 units of cargo, with a mass of 4,000 kg per unit. (Disregarding the cargo bonus)
Hull: 40,000,000 kg Cargo: 2,000,000,000 kg Total: 2,040,000,000 kg
As we can see, the total mass of the Orca is twice that of a carrier. And yet this monster is allowed to roam freely through high-sec space! Similar inconsistencies can be found when looking at many other industrial class ships, violating the inner logic of the game universe and causing a less than ideal gaming experience. We as players should not have to put up with inconsitent in-game physics, just so industrial players can have an unfair advantage over others, yet in Eve Online the very laws of nature are twisted to cater to this particular niche of players!
One solution could be to allow cynosural fields in high-security space, another one is to expand the capabilities of stargates to allow capital combat ships to jump through, which would allow them to travel into high-sec. This step would seem rather extreme to many people, and I agree. I would like to put forward a more modest proposal: require capital industrial ships to use a jump drive and cynosural field when travelling between star systems and send them to low- and nullsec where they belong. I put my full trust into CCP to remedy this flaw in the near future.
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Khamelean
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:17:00 -
[2]
Perhaps the limit on stargates is one of policy rather than physics. Perhaps Concord doesn't want capital class war ships in high-sec?
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James Tiberius Kirk
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:23:00 -
[3]
Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk on 19/02/2011 12:34:19 Same with EVE, same with real life. Governments don't want you to cruise around the city with an APC, you can't own a personal aircraft carrier with armed and loaded aircrafts and dock up on a city harbor. Tanks are able adhere traffic rules, but you don't see any tanks on traffic.
Same with EVE.
In before someone with their 8 year old logic, yeah, that doesn't work in real life either.
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Chatea
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:26:00 -
[4]
Take into account the other things you are forgetting, then redo your math and see what you get. A Nidhogger carrier has 600,000 m3 more room for ships in it's bay, it's drone bay is 89925 m3 greater, has more low slots for further expansion of carghold (though this own't make s much difference you have to take it into account).
I'm not so sure the Orca wins the "Biggest Loser" this time. |
Khory Thunderstar
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Posted - 2011.02.19 12:56:00 -
[5]
It might also be a limit on physical size.
You know? a ship having to go INSIDE the stargate to be able to be launched?
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Shintai
Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io
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Posted - 2011.02.19 13:53:00 -
[6]
So the OP bought a carrier and cant afford the fuel? --------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:08:00 -
[7]
Proof that math is no substitute for common sense. -
I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Proof that math is no substitute for common sense.
common sense: so rare it's a freakin' superpower ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Governments don't want you to cruise around the city with an APC
Well....actually
For the record, my local transport department will let me register that. They might take the machine guns off me, since I don't have a license for them. The Adelaide meet, be there! |
Unknown
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:23:00 -
[10]
lol since hulkageddon the price of fuel has gone up. :P
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.02.19 14:26:00 -
[11]
That was brief?
I'd hate to see how much you type when the subject can't be summed up in a single sentence.
Sincerely, Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
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Posted - 2011.02.19 15:20:00 -
[12]
My Providence has an empty mass of 900.000.000 kg and can hold approximately 835.000 m3 with my current skills. If I fill it up with Veldspar (as in your example) it gets a total mass of (835.000 x 4.000 x 10) + 900.000.000 = 34.300.000.000 kg. Yes, that's right, Thirty-four-billion-three-hundred-million kilograms! And it can still use stargates. It's not even the biggest freighter out there and I don't have max skills, so the figures can be even more ludicrous. So the reason for not allowing capital combat ships in high sec is a political one, not physics. And I, for one, can live with that. |
James Tiberius Kirk
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Posted - 2011.02.19 15:27:00 -
[13]
Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk on 19/02/2011 15:37:35
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Governments don't want you to cruise around the city with an APC
Well....actually
For the record, my local transport department will let me register that. They might take the machine guns off me, since I don't have a license for them.
And how would your local transport department would feel when you use an APC to pick up your kids from school, everyday. I'm pretty sure you'll get a hefty fine, if not jail time for endangering human lives.
Having a license =! Using it on streets.
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Harold Tuphlos
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:16:00 -
[14]
I see that nobody here has lived in a wormhole, since if they did they would know that cargo does NOT add to the mass of the ship, nor do offlined mods. The "explination" is that the cargo hold is a field of some sort that doesn't add mass.
tl;dr cargo doesn't count.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk on 19/02/2011 15:37:35
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Governments don't want you to cruise around the city with an APC
Well....actually
For the record, my local transport department will let me register that. They might take the machine guns off me, since I don't have a license for them.
And how would your local transport department would feel when you use an APC to pick up your kids from school, everyday. I'm pretty sure you'll get a hefty fine, if not jail time for endangering human lives.
Having a license =! Using it on streets.
False. A dad that awesome would probably get a trophy. Also, schools worldwide would likely hold fundraisers to erect their own statue of The Awesomest Dad (ideally, he would posed on top of an APC. He would be wearing shades, looking super badass and smoking a cigar. Pretty much Duke Nukem. I wish Duke Nukem was my dad.)
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DeBingJos
Minmatar The Reformed Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.19 16:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Edited by: James Tiberius Kirk on 19/02/2011 15:37:35
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk Governments don't want you to cruise around the city with an APC
Well....actually
For the record, my local transport department will let me register that. They might take the machine guns off me, since I don't have a license for them.
And how would your local transport department would feel when you use an APC to pick up your kids from school, everyday. I'm pretty sure you'll get a hefty fine, if not jail time for endangering human lives.
Having a license =! Using it on streets.
False. A dad that awesome would probably get a trophy. Also, schools worldwide would likely hold fundraisers to erect their own statue of The Awesomest Dad (ideally, he would posed on top of an APC. He would be wearing shades, looking super badass and smoking a cigar. Pretty much Duke Nukem. I wish Duke Nukem was my dad.)
^^ this!!!
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Xan Akira
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Posted - 2011.02.19 17:37:00 -
[17]
I seem to vaguely remember a topic about this some years ago and the determination about the mass of the ship is this:
Ship mass + cargo mass = total mass. So, when you pull the info on a ship, the mass that is reported is the cargo + hull.
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