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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.28 06:35:00 -
[91]
Good man! ----------
Prom4csm
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Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.28 07:00:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
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Inggroth
GOP KOHTOPA
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:02:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Inggroth on 28/02/2011 11:02:07 Strongly supported.
I'm not too sure about the speed nerf. Yeah it does makes sense that a faction frig should be slower than nanoed ceptor, but then you can get a Mach to outperform a Vaga in terms of speed/agility - :angelCartel:
Other than that perfectly reasonable changes to make frigsize less about "Dramiel" vs. "how do i trap-fit $OTHER_FRIG to pwn Dramiels"
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Yankunytjatjara
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:38:00 -
[94]
No brainer, really.
Also check the proposal in my sig - it caters to the same who like this idea imo.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
AntonioBanderas
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2011.02.28 13:13:00 -
[95]
yes please __________________________________________________ I can say ASS!!! And ****!!!! \o/
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Flaming Lies
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Posted - 2011.02.28 13:37:00 -
[96]
+1
dramiels are imba And give AF's a fourth bonus
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.28 19:02:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
Bad troll, wrong forum ----------
Prom4csm
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Tyrehl
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.28 22:59:00 -
[98]
****, goons.
pew-pew |
Kayl Breinhar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.02.28 23:48:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar Edited by: Kayl Breinhar on 28/02/2011 07:03:00 So evidently it's too difficult for PL to fit Hyenas, Rapiers, and Huginns into their fleet dynamics?
Or is this prompted by our reimbursement program and it's cutting into your K/D ratios?
Bad troll, wrong forum
It's not a troll.
There is a counter to the speed of the Dramiel. It's called a stasis webifier, followed by warp scramblers. Perhaps you've heard of them.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.01 00:05:00 -
[100]
my experience shows that sniper Loki is very effective at killing Dramiels. It's achieved without webs or even warp scrambling. Simply 1-2 shot them as they try chase you. I got me 5 Dramiel kills in 1 week that way.
That's not to justify anything, I'm merely presenting a viable tactic for current situation.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.01 12:02:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ephemeron my experience shows that sniper Loki is very effective at killing Dramiels. It's achieved without webs or even warp scrambling. Simply 1-2 shot them as they try chase you. I got me 5 Dramiel kills in 1 week that way.
That's not to justify anything, I'm merely presenting a viable tactic for current situation.
Yeah, too bad the idea is to get some semblance of 1v1 balance back to the frigate class as well as give interceptors (and to some extent, AFs) their viability back... Fact is, lots of things kill Dramiels, you don't need to alpha them in a 500 mil T3 (That would 1-2 shot most other frigates as well, duh!), 50 mil is sufficient for the job TBH. But it doesn't change the fact that as it stands the Dramiel is dominating the frigate arena way too much and it's making the game *very* boring by now... ----------
Prom4csm
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Rye Contini
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.03.01 14:00:00 -
[102]
pikacat speaks the truth, nerf without making it boring or useless ftw.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.01 14:06:00 -
[103]
It's not about counters or tactics. Everyone knows that counters and tactics exist. But it does not necessarily follow that frigates are balanced.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.01 19:09:00 -
[104]
I still believe that balance to the frigate scene can be returned by significantly restricting supply of Dramiels, resulting in significant cost increase for the superior ship.
That way when people lose Dramiels, they lose a lot of money, making it unsustainable for bad PvP pilots. The same form of balance we have with officer mods in PvP.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.01 20:09:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Ephemeron I still believe ..
Might have made sense 3 years ago before Eve got all those insane ISK making addition: PI, Moons, Incursions, Low-sec BS rats, Sanctums etc.
ISK was not a balancing factor back then and should certainly not be one now that anyone can put together half a billion in a week .. Look at the explosion in super-capitals and T3's flying around, we are richer than ever before.
Supply should be brought down to DD level at least, but not for balancing purposes but because it is the right thing to do .. ship will still be OP in the frigate realm no matter what it costs.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.01 21:39:00 -
[106]
I don't like the proliferation of supercaps. But I really like that many people use T3 for PvP. People invest 500+ mil and a few days training into PvP ships - that's a very good thing.
Use of expensive stuff in PvP makes it more exciting for everyone - for both sides, those who fly it, and those who eventually get to kill it. It is one of the things that allows EVE to maintain interest of long term player. Without it, PvP gets boring in a year or less.
CCP should do more to encourage people to PvP with expensive ships. They should also make sure that super-cheap alternatives (such as Drake and Hurricane) cannot dominate the battlefield. People should choose - either be powerful and fly something expensive, or be weak and cheap, and gain strength through numbers (blob tactics).
There should always be something "elite" for long term players to pursue, something rare and expensive. And it is wrong to assume that the end game is all in the mega alliance supercapitol stuff. The small gang people need goals too.
Dramiel can be raised above all frigs, not one of them any longer, but something special. And as such, it should be more rare and much more expensive.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2011.03.01 22:51:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Mimiru Minahiro on 01/03/2011 22:58:07 As HY says ISK has never been a balancing factor. Think of all the people who used to dump a bil into thier vagas. Most were not crazy good pilots, many lost multiple ships/month due to sneaky tactics and being over confident. And yet they still kept fitting the same.
If something is out of balance, it is out of balance. Making it more expensive just means that only rich people get to have unbalanced ships. Making them cheap means everyone can have an unbalanced ship.
Unfortunately only nerfing the Dram doesnt really change things. Nerfing the Dram just moves the FOTM the next "best" ship. There has to be a wholistic approach if you want balance. Then again- balance is something few people really want. They just want "diffferent". If you nerf the Dram then the ship that takes its place will be the next thing people complain about in a year or two.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.01 23:06:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 01/03/2011 23:08:09
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro As HY says ISK has never been a balancing factor. Think of all the people who used to dump a bil into thier vagas. Most were not crazy good pilots, many lost multiple ships/month due to sneaky tactics and being over confident. And yet they still kept fitting the same.
If something is out of balance, it is out of balance. Making it more expensive just means that only rich people get to have unbalanced ships. Making them cheap means everyone can have an unbalanced ship.
Isk plays integral part in game balance of EVE. Just a few major changes to costs of various things can totally **** this game up.
As any game with economy, as with real life, there will be rich people and there will be "unbalanced" benefits that rich people buy. That's just the nature of economics.
The real question we should be asking is: does destroying rich guy's ship hurts him or not? Can a smarter, more prepared group of people destroy the rich guy's source of wealth? For most things, EVE allows you to destroy somebody, except when: *) they employ bot army *) they run level 4's in high sec *) they won the t2 BPO lottery years ago
Alliance moon goo stuff pretty close to being invulnerable too. EVE should have more ways to disrupt logistics involved in transferring the goods from 0.0 to empire markets.
If we are really interested in perfectly balanced PvP game, then we should erase economy completely. All ships and fittings should be available for free. All unbalanced things such as officer mods should be eliminated.
But as long as there is money involved, unbalanced things must exist.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2011.03.01 23:38:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ephemeron Isk plays integral part in game balance of EVE.
So if CCP introduced a ship that was totally invulnerable, but made the cost of that ship sufficiently high enough, it would be balanced?
Cool story bro.
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar. Did you used to post under a different name? Like 3-4 years ago?
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.01 23:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
Originally by: Ephemeron Isk plays integral part in game balance of EVE.
So if CCP introduced a ship that was totally invulnerable, but made the cost of that ship sufficiently high enough, it would be balanced?
Cool story bro.
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar. Did you used to post under a different name? Like 3-4 years ago?
CCP already introduced such a ship - check out some of the Jove ships - like Enigma. They exist, yet nobody complains.
Why?
Because impossibly overpowered ship is impossible to get.
simple extension of the principle that crappy ship is easy to get. Strong ship is hard to get. The power to cost ratio should make a geometric curve.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:01:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar.
It is called 'WoW mentality'...
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:16:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro
As an aside- your diatribe sounds really really familiar.
It is called 'WoW mentality'...
You can't destroy other people's assets in WoW, so it has no bearing on this discussion at all.
All my power / cost arguments are laid on fundamental principle that everything dies in EVE. If it cannot be destroyed, it shouldn't exist and I won't defend it.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:20:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Mimiru Minahiro on 02/03/2011 00:23:17
Originally by: Ephemeron CCP already introduced such a ship - check out some of the Jove ships - like Enigma. They exist, yet nobody complains.
Why?
Because impossibly overpowered ship is impossible to get.
simple extension of the principle that crappy ship is easy to get. Strong ship is hard to get. The power to cost ratio should make a geometric curve.
I thought about laughing at your avoidance, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and reframe the question:
If CCP offered a ship to the playing public, sold through NPC station or something, that put out 100kk DPS, had billions of EHP, and could tank (active) any sub 500man fleet (meaning it was nearly impossible to kill but not totally) would that ship be "balanced" so long as CCP had a sufficiently high ISK price?
A simple yes or no will suffice :)
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.02 00:49:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Ephemeron on 02/03/2011 00:53:34
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro I thought about laughing at your avoidance, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and reframe the question:
If CCP offered a ship to the playing public, sold through NPC station or something, that put out 100kk DPS, had billions of EHP, and could tank (active) any sub 500man fleet (meaning it was nearly impossible to kill but not totally) would that ship be "balanced" so long as CCP had a sufficiently high ISK price?
A simple yes or no will suffice :)
Simple answer - yes. If the costs were astronomical, something in order of 5 trillion isk - and that's ONLY if it was possible to blob kill it with 100~ people.
I made a little graph that illustrates my way of thinking better than words:
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.03.02 01:29:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Supply should be brought down to DD level at least, but not for balancing purposes but because it is the right thing to do .. ship will still be OP in the frigate realm no matter what it costs.
'Overpowered' is subjective here, and people are looking at the whole thing from the wrong angle. There are frigates (even cheaper ones) that have equal or better target selection, while having worse combat avoidance ability.
Combat avoidance ability doesnt mean much in frigate combat if you dont land in a heavy camp with a brick frigate or get caught in a bubble.
If we are honest for a second, the truth lies somewhere entirely different. The Dramiel may be the fastest frigate with still decent firepower.
Now compare that to the Machariel, a *battleship* that does outrun not only other battleships, but does outrun the fastest battlecruisers, and even most cruisers! Without using anything but t2 modules. While having a solid battleship grade tank, impressive damage output and flexibility in range. If any angel ship needs a good whack with the nerfbat, the Machariel needs it first no doubt.
So what is different, why is this absurdity of a battleship not seen as a problem? The answer is simple, the entry level barrier is much higher, the mere peons cant afford it.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:02:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
'Overpowered' is subjective here
Same damage as other AF or faction frigs = Checked Same HP as other AF or faction frigs = Checked 50% or more faster than other AF or faction ships, faster even than inties = Checked No drawback = Checked
There isn't anything subjective here. It is clear and simple.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:32:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Omara Otawan ...So what is different, why is this absurdity of a battleship not seen as a problem? The answer is simple, the entry level barrier is much higher, the mere peons cant afford it.
Players have never had more ISK than now, the only barrier in regards to ships like the Machariel is time (SP).
Reason why the Machariel is not a problem and why the Cynabal is often glossed over as well is "available counters within its class". Anything and everything sub-capital goes against the Mach .. that is a lot of options, Cynabal can have everything sub-BS/BC thrown at it which again is a ton of options. When you hit the frigate/destroyer level the amount of options dwindle to less than a handful if that, which is why the Dramiel represents the biggest problem.
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Sinikka Huiputti
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:40:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ephemeron Tech 3
Yeah. It takes some isk to buy hull and submods. Sadly you only need tech 2 fitting to make them more effective than tech 2. Which means you don't need so good fittings there. Imho it's more like +/- 0. A bit like marauders. Less modules to loot, more effectiveness. Isk is tied to hull which explodes. Funnily enough salvage does not seem that good either. Common evelogic. It's ok to spend isk on ship as long as no one gets loot.
I may be just bitter.
Originally by: Ephemeron drake+cane
These battlecruisers are hardly only alternative if you get creative. It is actually good thing there is useful cost effective ships for newbies to fly. imho.
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Tyrehl
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:49:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Tyrehl on 02/03/2011 11:50:08 Ephemeron, i cant get it. Are you defending the dramiel in its current state?
DRAMIELS DOMINATE FRIGATE PVP.
SOME PEOPLE ARENT DUMB (dont participate in blob warfare only) and they want to roam solo and get some goodfights / fun.
NO SHIP SHOULD DOMINATE ANY SHIP CLASS IN EVE.
Also nothing should be killable only by ships fit specifically for this situation, so no "hurf durf but this counters dramiels". This is not rigt. Bump and moar +support for this idea, please pew-pew |
Dimitar Hadji
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Posted - 2011.03.02 14:18:00 -
[120]
Drams should be nerfed. |
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