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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:33:00 -
[1]
A corp mate of mine discovered something very sad. The Eagle has become such a worthless ship, that it hit the value which the Eagles that could be bought off the market were profitable to reprocess.
Yesterday evening, Sinq Laison was cleaned out of all Eagles which could be reprocessed for profit. That T2 ever reaches this point is sad. I couldn't believe that it was happening, so I asked for fraps of one of the instances: vid.
It did happen. The Eagle is the flagship of deficiency in hybrids. Such a sad day...
Bird Going Extinct...
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:34:00 -
[2]
-- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:44:00 -
[3]
Funny, I happen to know a couple of people who use it daily... It's use and function are narrow, but man it is quite entertaining =)
I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people.
Originally by: CCP Zulupark
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:44:00 -
[4]
I remember the glory days of Eagle. I think it was around 2005
It was just half a year since t2 cruisers were released. It was before the 50% HP boost to all ships - which what really killed Eagle.
Eagle was my first really successful PvP ship. I used to roam around and insta-pop interceptors and frigs. Often times I'd be chased by gangs of 5-10 people, warping around the system and popping their tackler frigs at 40-80 km Sometimes I could rack up up to 18 kills a day in sniper Eagle.
But after the 50% HP boost, the Eagle suddenly became worthless. I tried it, but it just didn't work. I tried it a few times years later, but it was clear that it's worthless.
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:50:00 -
[5]
Help save the Eagle!
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Shintai
Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:53:00 -
[6]
There are 2 for sale now. And if you check the market you can see the daily shift is about 2 a day. Easy enough to buy. Just not really wanted. Just like many others.
The Eos got the same volume shifting as the Eagle for example. --------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:55:00 -
[7]
I have an Eagle and I have flown it as a sniper and a beagle. I almost lost it to a Rifter until my falcon friend saved me. I don't fly it anymore.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.02.25 21:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shintai There are 2 for sale now. And if you check the market you can see the daily shift is about 2 a day. Easy enough to buy. Just not really wanted. Just like many others.
The Eos got the same volume shifting as the Eagle for example.
I know. It's all that survived The Purges.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:11:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ephemeron I remember the glory days of Eagle. I think it was around 2005
It was just half a year since t2 cruisers were released. It was before the 50% HP boost to all ships - which what really killed Eagle.
...
But after the 50% HP boost, the Eagle suddenly became worthless. I tried it, but it just didn't work. I tried it a few times years later, but it was clear that it's worthless.
50% HP boost was the worst thing to happen to EVE imo.
Not only did it kill Eagle, it made t1 cruisers practically worthless except for very specific situations (ie too broke to afford a real ship), t1 frigates basically cyno's with engines, and most HAC's (except ones that could get away with nano fit) far too situational to be of practical everyday use.
It was the day CCP gutshot solo PvP, and it's been dying a slow painful death ever since
The reason for this is exactly what the vets at the time said it would be. They said ships would take too long to kill with equal class (god forbid you should try to take on a larger ship), therefore the victim would be able to survive long enough for his friends to arrive in system and save him. Therefore to prevent getting killed by your victim's blob, you don't bother going solo, you go out with a big enough blob to start with so you can kill em before their mates arrive.
Back then, I could use pilot skill and imaginative fitting to solo BC's, made short work of them in my gank ruppie. Of course if I made a single mistake I would be quickly buttprobed and sitting in my pod. HP Buff and rigs? heh, not even worth attempting the above scenario, BC will win 9 times out of 10.
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Originally by: Ephemeron 50% HP killed eagle
50% HP boost was the worst thing to happen to EVE imo.
Dissagree completly.
EvE was improved massivly with the extra HP to make fights and tactics require more than more tracking enhancers and damage mods than the enemy, wihtout it we would have all the clever tactics we see today that were simply unessery before straight up slug fests.
CCPs error imo, was NOT reballencing the dps ships could do from ranges and weapon types, they kept it static. Why should the eagle for example, have LESS slots not a huge damage bonnus AND a huge range bonus but a special ability like -75% to BLASTER tracking to focus the role and keept it "dangerous from range" rather than the weaksauce LOL wagon it has become.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hesperius A corp mate of mine discovered something very sad. The Eagle has become such a worthless ship, that it hit the value which the Eagles that could be bought off the market were profitable to reprocess.
Being THAT extremely ugly I'm surprised anyone wants to fly it in the first place ..
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.02.25 22:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
Originally by: Ephemeron 50% HP killed eagle
50% HP boost was the worst thing to happen to EVE imo.
Dissagree completly.
EvE was improved massivly with the extra HP to make fights and tactics require more than more tracking enhancers and damage mods than the enemy
Still is, 'cept now the number of damage mods you need exceeds the capacity of one ship, so you gotta bring a number of ships to get a quick kill.
Not sure exactly what you mean by tactics, but if you're simply talking about ewar that's not got anything to do with HP buff, ewar was completely reworked to become useful (and by useful I mean multispec ECM or NOS no longer an iwin button for all ships) in seperate patches. You could have todays tactics if all changes went through except HP buff, you would simply require less ships on field to destroy any given ship/gang in a specific timeframe.
I'm talking strictly solo/small gang PvP here. Large fleet engagements are by definition blobby, and it didn't really change much there, BS got alpha'd out of the sky before, BS got alpha'd out of the sky after.
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.02.25 23:43:00 -
[13]
The Eagle has never been "good." People are misremembering.
Yes it was the best sniper at one time - but even then sniping was a trick of sorts that really didnt matter.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Airu Naari
The Noxious
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Posted - 2011.02.26 17:45:00 -
[14]
I remember Frankinator sniping me with an Eagle regularly in lowsec around Tama like 5 years ago :D
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2011.02.26 17:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ghoest The Eagle has never been "good." People are misremembering.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.02.26 18:09:00 -
[16]
Damned space-dioxins!
<reads more closely />
Oh, thatà yeah. Sad. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.02.26 18:12:00 -
[17]
Perfect time to invest your Isk. Might take a while, but should get a nice return.
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Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.02.26 18:54:00 -
[18]
Sniper HAC gangs wouldn't be the same without Eagle.
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Your avatar makes me want to follow you to a rural farmstead, give you all my worldly goods and call you The Aiwha.
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Darks Gambit
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:06:00 -
[19]
Number of eagles sold on the 17th: 5 Number of zealots sold on the 17th: 100
Add in to that caldari outnumber amarr by what 2 to 1, plus the ease to cross train over from gallente due to shared weapon systems..
Eagle advantages: range Eagle disadvantages: sig, speed, agility, power grid, low alpha, low dps, no drones, poor slot layout, poor lock speed.
It has a couple of nice tricks (faction ammo at range, massive spike range,) but you require bookmarks/ cloaky alt and you can move systems. Is specialised itself to extinction, I'm dubious if even a hybred boost will bring it back tbh.
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Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:08:00 -
[20]
Confirming that CCP has finally nerfed an ship out of existence. Quick get this on all the mmo news sites.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:12:00 -
[21]
Hooray for hybrid turrets. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aessoroz Confirming that CCP has finally nerfed an ship out of existence.
"Finally"?
At least the Eagle is flown, as opposed to, say, the EAFs. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:29:00 -
[23]
Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined. --------- Sent from my BlackBerry. |
Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Aessoroz Confirming that CCP has finally nerfed an ship out of existence.
"Finally"?
At least the Eagle is flown, as opposed to, say, the EAFs.
or Black-Ops. .
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.02.26 19:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined.
It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.26 20:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined.
It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Well, I do not believe in such. To ask is to learn. To think of one as a fool for asking is as good as being folly.
Judging from responses on threads like this on a frequent basis on the forum do suggest that there are issues with balance in the game and maybe those that discuss about them may have a point.
Correct me if I am wrong, Eve is a game that has been through a series of ad-hoc upgrades. It means ships that were not present before then magically appear in game. Consequently, the action of adding new components causes disturbances to other components. This creates balancing problems.
Sometimes, you can fix balance issues that are caused by ad-hoc upgrades and sometimes, after too many series of ad-hoc upgrades, fixing issues that arise from those upgrades may be difficult.
When that happens, the best way to fix them is to redesign them from scratch with the original intentions in mind. It means, if Caldari is supposed to be a shield / missile / hybrids race then they can still be but their ships, equipment and weapons are changed accordingly.
Redesigning is also good because unlike a long time ago, CCP have access to all ships and can design them better with all available ships at their disposal.
When you are doing things ad-hoc, whenever you add something new, you are definitely going to disturb something else. This probably makes balancing difficult in this sense. It maybe explains why some things are better than the other or overly better.
mkmin, now where am I wrong when I suggest a redesigning may be the way forward. --------- Sent from my BlackBerry.
All go post in testforums.evegate.com. New forums are awesome! |
Selinate
Amarr Red Water Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.02.26 20:09:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Selinate on 26/02/2011 20:09:55
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined.
The problem that not everyone realizes is that these given roles aren't always only affected by the stats of the ships themselves, but sometimes they're affected by other game mechanics also.
For example, just think of how many ways removing local would affect the covert ops, recon, and black ops ships.
This is why a simple rebalancing of the ships wouldn't help in every aspect. If you go down that route, then a re-balancing and redesigning of the entire game would be necessary. It's not worth it.
As for the eagle... I'm shooting for a zealot, so I don't really care
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.02.26 20:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined.
It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Judging from responses on threads like this on a frequent basis on the forum do suggest that there are issues with balance in the game and maybe those that discuss about them may have a point.
This is your first MMO isn't it?
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.02.26 21:01:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Pod Amarr on 26/02/2011 21:07:12 Lets take a look at this
Zealot: Super dps at insane ranges with split second changges to optimal. Sacriledge: I guess OK tanky has problems.
Vagabond: Hit and run good specialist Munnin: Good in general considered 2nd best sniper hac after zealot.
Cerberus: It is ok with problems Delayed DPS but highest DPS at those crazy ranges Most people are idiots and hate it. Eagle: well see this thread
Deimos: See Die most Ishtar: Drone boat with all its pros and cons has pve uses as well.
Conclusion:
In this you can see clearly the current bias of the gmae race design that is all over eve Amarr or Minmatar or go away and come back when you crosstrain. As far as HACs are concerned. Pod |
Long John Silver
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Posted - 2011.02.26 21:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hesperius Edited by: Hesperius on 25/02/2011 21:52:22 A corp mate of mine discovered something very sad. The Eagle has become such a worthless ship, that it hit the value which the Eagles that could be bought off the market were profitable to reprocess.
Yesterday evening, Sinq Laison was cleaned out of all Eagles which could be reprocessed for profit. That T2 ever reaches this point is sad. I couldn't believe that it was happening, so I asked for fraps of one of the instances: vid.
It did happen. The Eagle is the flagship of deficiency in hybrids. Such a sad day...
AFIK the other regions have not been hit yet. Someone with gobs of money please save the Eagles from extinction. CCP will one day fix hybrids
Do I mourn the Eagle's fall from popularity? Not at all. I never got round to flying one because there's plenty of other ships out there I can enjoy. And plenty of other ships you never see flown.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.02.27 01:11:00 -
[31]
The eagle still ranks as the ship with the second most kills on my kb profile.
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Trader Hansen
Failure Assured
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Posted - 2011.02.27 02:36:00 -
[32]
The Eagle has always sucked. Moving right along...
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.27 09:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Selinate Edited by: Selinate on 26/02/2011 20:09:55
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined.
The problem that not everyone realizes is that these given roles aren't always only affected by the stats of the ships themselves, but sometimes they're affected by other game mechanics also.
For example, just think of how many ways removing local would affect the covert ops, recon, and black ops ships.
This is why a simple rebalancing of the ships wouldn't help in every aspect. If you go down that route, then a re-balancing and redesigning of the entire game would be necessary. It's not worth it.
As for the eagle... I'm shooting for a zealot, so I don't really care
Yes, I agree with you that balance is not only affected by ships' stats but also modules.
The only point that I still hold strongly and I know you may disagree with me is about sometimes fixing balance requires a redesign.
Redesigning in this sense can be overhauling all ships and give them a good reboot. In addition to that, they can also make it a part of the balancing work to remove local.
It is no different than making a new forum, new character creator and all the wonderful features that CCP is planning for us.
Don't you all want a good, balanced, fun, interesting and exciting Eve? If you really do then moving forward is what we all should be doing.
Learn mistakes of the past and make a better future. --------- Sent from my BlackBerry.
All go post in testforums.evegate.com. New forums are awesome! |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.02.27 09:38:00 -
[34]
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi. I do not know much about the history of balancing but if there are so much problems with balancing, why not CCP start from scratch in redesigning them?
The second time around should be easy because all ships have their roles. They only need to put some values into offense and defense and tweak on them. After all, their hulls are already defined.
It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Judging from responses on threads like this on a frequent basis on the forum do suggest that there are issues with balance in the game and maybe those that discuss about them may have a point.
This is your first MMO isn't it?
mkmin, no it isn't. I play WoW and Guildwars from time to time. --------- Sent from my BlackBerry.
All go post in testforums.evegate.com. New forums are awesome! |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.02.27 10:01:00 -
[35]
What generation Jenny Spitfire is this? I lost count.
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Commander TGK
Gallente The Deep Space Armada
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Posted - 2011.02.27 10:55:00 -
[36]
...sounds like hybrids are progressively dying a little more each day. Look at the Rokh, or the Hyperion for example. They aren't horrible, but there's always better choices. Every ships should have a place. ESPECIALLY tier 3 BSs.
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Cheekyhoe
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Posted - 2011.02.27 10:57:00 -
[37]
Hybrids need a fix then the eagle can rise again.
Seriously Hybrids just suck too much is all
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Asuri Kinnes
Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.02.27 12:58:00 -
[38]
When I first started the game, I really couldn't wait to fly the Rokh and the Eagle... Then I learned how to play...
Currently flying Zealot's...
FIX HYBRIDS! Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
NO! |
Josefius
Gallente JOKAS Industries Matari Legion
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Posted - 2011.02.27 14:36:00 -
[39]
Bleh, I've done some missions with rails in my Mega and it didn't seem THAT bad, but yeah... Blasters kind of suck ass through a straw.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.02.27 18:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Josefius Bleh, I've done some missions with rails in my Mega and it didn't seem THAT bad, but yeah... Blasters kind of suck ass through a straw.
Rails and blasters aren't bad until you use a different race's ships and weapon systems. Example: an apocalypse with short range weapons can out-DPS a megathron with any weapon. It's short range weapons can out-range the megathron's long range weapons in any non-hypothetical situation. That's just all kinds of wrong.
Imo, most hybrids can be pretty much fixed if sentry drones were able to move along with the controlling ship, and medium and small sentries were added. That would allow blaster boats to being applying damage at range, but still have the massive oomph blasters are meant to have at short range. It would let railboats apply the amounts of damage other racial ships can apply, without tying them down to one spot.
However, this thread being about Eagle, I don't fly them so I couldn't say.
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Kuronaga
Kantian Principle
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Posted - 2011.02.27 18:49:00 -
[41]
The eagle is garbage.
The megathron on the other hand gets huge buffer on a cheap ship, 1500 dps and a heavy neut.
If you can't figure out how to use one, stop playing eve.
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Argus Greymoore
Gallente Something for Nothing
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Posted - 2011.02.27 19:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Templar Dane What generation Jenny Spitfire is this? I lost count.
I think this is at least the third owner of the Jenny Spitfire account, as far as I can tell from the differences in personality over the years.
I miss the old Jenny.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.02.27 19:17:00 -
[43]
I see the reprocessing plague has not hit the Eagles in Jita yet. Somebody save them!
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.02.27 23:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious Funny, I happen to know a couple of people who use it daily... It's use and function are narrow, but man it is quite entertaining =)
entertaining such as riding an unicycle instead of a skateboard or a sports bike.
Do you like to cruise on your bike at high speed and enjoy the sound of the powerful engine or maybe you prefer the joy of unicycle.
Eagle is very exciting, but if you see some in it, you may smile and think to yourself, what a funny guy, flying a stupid ship.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.02.27 23:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Cheekyhoe Hybrids need a fix then the eagle can rise again.
Seriously Hybrids just suck too much is all
besides, caldari gunboats suck too, fail bonuses, fail fitting, no speed, no snipe, no tackle.
pick one... buffer pod.
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.02.28 00:18:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Doddy on 28/02/2011 00:19:26 Its still a more practical ship than most of the electronic attack ships, and just as easily fixed. The eagles problem is nothing to do with hybrids either, its to do with its redundant double optimal bonus. Replace one with another damage/rof bonus a la zealot/munin and it would slot in with other sniper hacs fine (it would still have the longest range as well). Same applies to the Vulture, though as its primary purpose is always ganglinks it doesn't matter as much.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.02.28 00:38:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Opertone on 28/02/2011 00:42:02 Edited by: Opertone on 28/02/2011 00:39:36 eagle can be fun too
jump around space, here and there at slow speed, no control of what you are doing and performing rare stunts, such as killing pods interceptors and scaring carebears.
Achura circus back in town
now add that skill to eagle, doing nothing in empty local.
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.02.28 09:26:00 -
[48]
Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.
Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online |
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.02.28 11:52:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Doddy The eagles problem is nothing to do with hybrids either, its to do with its redundant double optimal bonus. Replace one with another damage/rof bonus a la zealot/munin and it would slot in with other sniper hacs fine.
I make it that swapping an optimal bonus for a damage bonus would result in less DPS at 100 km, and a shorter optimal too?
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.02.28 13:16:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Doddy The eagles problem is nothing to do with hybrids either, its to do with its redundant double optimal bonus. Replace one with another damage/rof bonus a la zealot/munin and it would slot in with other sniper hacs fine (it would still have the longest range as well). Same applies to the Vulture, though as its primary purpose is always ganglinks it doesn't matter as much.
If there's an issue with the bonuses, it isn't the dual range bonus as much as the combination of range and tank bonuses. You can compensate quite nicely with faction ammo (in fact, the Eagle is one of the few ships that could really utilize the current ammo balance of hybrids).
The real problem with the Eagle as a Sniper is A) fitting issues, not being able to devote all it's / the same amount of slots, to capitalize on it's bonuses and B) that as a result it's 1/4 slower than all other ships in the group, which when running fast HAC tactics means you get isolated and die.
The notion of a ship that can do just under 250 dps with superb tracking at typical ranges isn't that bad, but when you factor in that it will be so much slower than any other option, the nische of giving up some damage in favour of tracking isn't that appealing anymore.
As always with Hybrid platforms, fitting issues is the main culprit. Allowing it to cut back on one or two slots now filled by fitting mods (or not available to be filled by anything due to constraints) would allow it to double up on speed mods or close the speed gap at least a bit while putting it's range advantage to full use by extending it's lock range further.
The Vulture, well, at least it can fill up all it's remaining high slots with missiles - making hybrids a choice.
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Brynhilda
Amarr Gun Metal Hit Sqaud
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Posted - 2011.02.28 13:31:00 -
[51]
Well, of course the Eagle is extinct. Mankind's entrance to the area and the loss of its major food source, the Moa, caused it to die out.
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Willl Adama
Judicio Sine Misericordia
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Posted - 2011.02.28 14:25:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Willl Adama on 28/02/2011 14:26:17 Active HACS GO! You may wanna check this out. One of the ships flown by garmon in this video is a faction fit active tanked blaster eagle!
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.02.28 14:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kuronaga The Armageddon gets huge buffer on a cheap ship, 1500 dps and a heavy neut.
If you can't figure out how to use an Armageddon, stop playing eve.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.02.28 17:59:00 -
[54]
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.
Ships and Modules eh...
So ships and modules, what do you guys think about the profitability in Jita for reprocessing Eagles? What is your take on reprocessing any T2 for profit?
... nice one spitfire.
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2011.02.28 18:04:00 -
[55]
Great! I will keep my Eagle in its hangar as a hedge against its extinction. I knew I'd find some use for it one day.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.02.28 19:55:00 -
[56]
There are 2 ways an Eagle can become useful: 1) higher DPS, such as 5% ROF bonus in addition to 5% damage bonus (like Minmatar ships) 2) high alpha, such giving in a role bonus: 50% more damage, -33% rate of fire
Other than that, I can't think of anything that would make me want to fly one.
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.02.28 20:07:00 -
[57]
the last time sniper eagles were useful, was the time of 150-200km BS fleets. with changes to probing mechanics, these tactics stopped being viable.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2011.03.01 00:24:00 -
[58]
Originally by: mkmin Imo, most hybrids can be pretty much fixed if sentry drones were able to move along with the controlling ship, and medium and small sentries were added.
LOLwut? Fix hybrids by changing sentry drones?
Are you a CCP dev alt? Because I can't think of a real player coming up with an idea like that.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 00:36:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Willl Adama Edited by: Willl Adama on 28/02/2011 14:26:17 Active HACS GO! You may wanna check this out. One of the ships flown by garmon in this video is a faction fit active tanked blaster eagle!
Exactly. It's not that Garmon is some "pvp god" (dont get me wrong he is the best) it's more that he isn't a narrowminded moron who believes everything he hears on the forum eg hybrids are totally and utterly and completely broken and useless.
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Rick Chieve
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Posted - 2011.03.01 00:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Perfect time to invest your Isk. Might take a while, but should get a nice return.
Just bought four the suckers today. ;)
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2011.03.01 07:33:00 -
[61]
Hybrid fix was suggested here. yeah that would help a bit, but even if hybrids become win weapons what's the point if you can't fit them? eagle has PG/CPU like a missile boat should have. ALL other sniper hacs are able to fit top tier guns + MWD + some tank, why eagle can't?
here is my old topic about caldari gun failboats http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1414445
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Aquana Abyss
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Posted - 2011.03.01 09:58:00 -
[62]
wtb Eagle BPO
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.03.01 13:46:00 -
[63]
Don't blaim the hitpoint boost for killing anything... Yes the Eagle is one of the least efficient HACs.
But it is economy that killed the use of frigates and cruisers..
Today carriers are the new Battleships Battleships are the new Battlecruisers Battlecruisers are the new cruisers Everybody can afford battlecruisers so no need for smaller ships. frigates are used for cyno's and shuttles
This is generally talking ofcourse - There will always be people flying the underdog ships for test of their skills... But the economy means all the smaller and more fragile ships are just overlooked alltogether
Pinky -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.01 15:06:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tony SoXai
Originally by: Willl Adama Edited by: Willl Adama on 28/02/2011 14:26:17 Active HACS GO! You may wanna check this out. One of the ships flown by garmon in this video is a faction fit active tanked blaster eagle!
Exactly. It's not that Garmon is some "pvp god" (dont get me wrong he is the best) it's more that he isn't a narrowminded moron who believes everything he hears on the forum eg hybrids are totally and utterly and completely broken and useless.
So you want say hybrids are not totally useless? just compare the blaster eagle to a vaga or a zealot pls btw that eagle in the vid is faction fitted +implant set+ gang mods...,so yeah completly viable .. pls dont be that stupid
hybrids and caldari/gall gunboats are horribly broken and totally useless this is a fact not someones opinion, looks like you are the narrowmindded who cant accept the truth
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.01 15:29:00 -
[65]
eagle's are fine. they do dps between muninn and zealot at snipe range with quantiple the tracking (at that range only).
Also, it is cheaper then the rest.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.01 15:56:00 -
[66]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis eagle's are fine. they do dps between muninn and zealot.
That's in EFT.
Yes, a thorium Eagle gets 11 DPS more than a Tremor Muninn. But the front-loading of damage from the Muninn's alpha and higher scan res means that it will take over a minute of shooting for the Eagle to overtake the Muninn's applied damage. EFT tells the truth, but not necessarily the whole truth.
Add to that lower speed, worse cap, no ancillary weapons or drones, fat sig, poor resists to Aurora and lower EHP and the only thing that the Eagle has is tracking. That's useful, but does it really make up for everything else?
If the Eagle had 350 PG more than there'd be room for a DC and Photon II (move a TC to a locus rig), with no fitting mods required. That would give it a very respectable chunk of EHP. The Eagle would be a classic Caldari ship - respectable DPS at range, great EHP, poor mobility and cap. You'd fly it when you wanted a good EHP-DPS product, but the Muninn and Zealot would still have the advantages of sheer DPS, alpha and mobility. Or that extra PG would enable 250 mm rails with Spike, and still have room for three TDs with PDP rigs and 100 km optimal. Again, powerful ewar abilities is classic Caldari design.
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.01 16:09:00 -
[67]
Edited by: AristotleOnassis on 01/03/2011 16:13:48 u can fit the eagle to have that dps advantage AND more ehp.
if you cared about sig radius and speed, this means you are using AB, which means i can drop an LSE and ancilliary and still compete in terms of speed and sig with the muninn.
if you cared about locking time, this is also false, because no matter what sniping range you choose, i can choose a better resolution by using a resolution script on the sebo.
if you cared about ehp, this is also false. cuz no mater what ehp you choose to fit your muninn, i can always fit my eagle with better ehp then you do while imitating all the other mods.
having drones on a snipe boat is a total waste of isk. any frig trying to tackle a hac should be incinerated incredibly quickly by fellow m8's, rather then using drones giving even more objects to warp to.
in short, no matter how you fit your muninn, i can always make an eagle fit with better dps and quantiple tracking at 100km range, while being competitive in all the other available stats, most importantly being cheap as hell.
its real weakness is the zealot itself. havng the em hole
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.01 16:35:00 -
[68]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis Edited by: AristotleOnassis on 01/03/2011 16:13:48 u can fit the eagle to have that dps advantage AND more ehp...if you cared about sig radius and speed, this means you are using AB, which means i can drop an LSE and ancilliary and still compete in terms of speed and sig with the muninn...if you cared about locking time, this is also false, because no matter what sniping range you choose, i can choose a better resolution by using a resolution script on the sebo... if you cared about ehp, this is also false. cuz no mater what ehp you choose to fit your muninn, i can always fit my eagle with better ehp then you do while imitating all the other mods...in short, no matter how you fit your muninn, i can always make an eagle fit with better dps and quantiple tracking at 100km range, while being competitive in all the other available stats, most importantly being cheap as hell...
Can you post a fit here? I'm a huge fan of the incredible range of the Eagle, but every time I get excited about fitting one out, I open EFT and then close it out frustrated without finding what I was hoping for.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.01 16:36:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/03/2011 16:43:18
Originally by: AristotleOnassis in short, no matter how you fit your muninn, i can always make an eagle fit with better dps
I just explained to you that that's EFT Warrioring. Read it again.
And your statements about sig and speed are naive, and those of EHP are wrong. You do not have room for a sensor booster on the Eagle because it needs three TCs to hit 100 km optimal, and it doesn't have the PG to use a locus rig. I know you can use implants, but it's not really an appropriate comparison then.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 16:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Tony SoXai
Originally by: Willl Adama Edited by: Willl Adama on 28/02/2011 14:26:17 Active HACS GO! You may wanna check this out. One of the ships flown by garmon in this video is a faction fit active tanked blaster eagle!
Exactly. It's not that Garmon is some "pvp god" (dont get me wrong he is the best) it's more that he isn't a narrowminded moron who believes everything he hears on the forum eg hybrids are totally and utterly and completely broken and useless.
So you want say hybrids are not totally useless? just compare the blaster eagle to a vaga or a zealot pls btw that eagle in the vid is faction fitted +implant set+ gang mods...,so yeah completly viable .. pls dont be that stupid
hybrids and caldari/gall gunboats are horribly broken and totally useless this is a fact not someones opinion, looks like you are the narrowmindded who cant accept the truth
You really are totally stupid. So because he used those ganglink tengus and had boosters and it was faction fit means it's a bad ship? Last I checked he does that with every ship he flies. The blaster eagle pwns the Vaga, once you catch him which is pretty easy in my experience. Not only that, but the Zealot is totally missing a highslot for a medium neut, which the Eagle isn't.
Maybe the Eagle isn't as good for your stupid little hac fleets that you blobbers use in 0.0 but it is a solid hac for every other purpose.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.01 16:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tony SoXai Maybe the Eagle isn't as good for your stupid little hac fleets that you blobbers use in 0.0 but it is a solid hac for every other purpose.
You seriously just argued that because one of the best solo PvPers in all of EVE, using maxed-out ganglinks, implants and deadspace/faction fitting, was able to make it work, that means it's fine.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:00:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 01/03/2011 17:06:06
Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Tony SoXai Maybe the Eagle isn't as good for your stupid little hac fleets that you blobbers use in 0.0 but it is a solid hac for every other purpose.
You seriously just argued that because one of the best solo PvPers in all of EVE, using maxed-out ganglinks, implants and deadspace/faction fitting, was able to make it work, that means it's fine.
HE ****ING DOES THAT WITH EVERY SHIP HE USES YOU STUPID **** use your ****ing loaf.
Edit: Guess that means the Tengu is completely and utterly useless, and the Ishtar, and ****ing Mimir, nope evry one useles he needs faction stuff and gang boosting to make them work nope.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:20:00 -
[73]
The point Tony is that without all the extra crap the Eagle wouldn't work.
It's not like a Tengu that even with a standard Tech2 fit manages to be completely awesome. Without all the pimp stuff that Eagle would be worthless and if it ended up in a fight with a similarly pimped ship it would lose.
Trying to argue that a because a ship with a ridicuously expensive setup can beat a ship with a vanilla setup it's okay is just plain stupid.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:27:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Naomi Knight on 01/03/2011 17:28:17
Originally by: Tony SoXai
You really are totally stupid. So because he used those ganglink tengus and had boosters and it was faction fit means it's a bad ship? Last I checked he does that with every ship he flies. The blaster eagle pwns the Vaga, once you catch him which is pretty easy in my experience. Not only that, but the Zealot is totally missing a highslot for a medium neut, which the Eagle isn't.
Maybe the Eagle isn't as good for your stupid little hac fleets that you blobbers use in 0.0 but it is a solid hac for every other purpose.
Me stupid? Why? because I know an eagle wont have a chance to capture a vagabond , except if that vaga is flown in the wrong way and has the fitting cost 1/10 of the eagle not to mention the implant set... eagle mwd with overheat around 2k m/s vaga without overheat 2.5k m/s try to catch that noob
Energy neut are u serious? nice try with an already way too cap dependant ship, Im sure that neut would hurt the eagle more than its target, have u noticed that he hasnt activated that neut in the vid at all btw it was a SMALL!! energy neut?so no eagle cant fit that med neut. And even with small neut eagle only had 2 electron and 3 ion blasters :P lol pg ftw.
Yep eagle isnt good in 0.0 hac fleets but it isnt good in any kind of fleets or solo for that matter.
All of your point are proven wrong --> you are clueless so stop posting bs thx
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:32:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 01/03/2011 17:36:35 The REAL point is that no one wants to believe that blasters and the Eagle are fine. You just keep quacking on about how blasters have bad tracking and low range and how the Eagle gets an optimal bonus and how it's hard to fit guns on it.
It's no harder to fit than a Zealot, doesn't get slowed down by an armor tank and especially isn't lacking a medium neut in the last highslot. You can active tank it or passive tank it.
You people are just stupid.
What point is proven wrong? Catching nano morons is the easiest thing since ur sister, they can't predict when you're gonna turn around with an overheated scram and even when they do they stay far enough away that you have time to warp.
Oh and yeah you can't fit a medium neut on your Eagle because Garmon didn't and he's the nly one to fit ships!!!111
The eagle isn't that cap dependant (the mwd, thats about it) or you have a cap booster.
Let's see you fit a Zealot that will outperform the Eagle in a solo pvp environment, go ahead, stupid gimboid.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:41:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tony SoXai Let's see you fit a Zealot that will outperform the Eagle in a solo pvp environment, go ahead, stupid gimboid.
You mean the zealot that's actually able to deal damage from range, and is lighter/faster than the Eagle and able to kite tank? That one?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:54:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Tony SoXai Let's see you fit a Zealot that will outperform the Eagle in a solo pvp environment, go ahead, stupid gimboid.
You mean the zealot that's actually able to deal damage from range, and is lighter/faster than the Eagle and able to kite tank? That one?
-Liang
Well?
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2011.03.01 17:56:00 -
[78]
Edited by: fkingfurious on 01/03/2011 17:56:47 Go on then Tony, since you keep banging on about it.
Post an Eagle fit that can solo, doesnt have comically bad cap life, has a medium neut and isn't deadspace/faction fitted and I reckon between us we could find a fit for every other HAC in game (with the possible exception of the Cerb) that would smash its teeth down its throat without even trying.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:02:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tony SoXai It's no harder to fit than a Zealot, doesn't get slowed down by an armor tank and especially isn't lacking a medium neut in the last highslot. You can active tank it or passive tank it.
You people are just stupid.
[Zealot, 100 km] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
[Eagle, Thorium] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ionic Field Projector I
One requires a PDS II, the other requires a RCU II and an ACR. One has speed 1354 m/s, the other has 1654 m/s.
These are examples of the fits that we're talking about. Not pointless solo fits that are outperformed by T1 battlecruisers, you see. Now stop blathering and go back to flying non-cloaky Falcons.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:05:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Tony SoXai on 01/03/2011 18:06:52 [Eagle, MastahBlastah] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
70k ehp with a 177 dps tank with the Invuln overheated, 500 overheated dps, kinda slow, stable at 61% without the mwd or neut.
Edit: That non-cloaky falcon was just a stupid mistake you ****.
And I resent the implication that 0.0 hac blobfests are the only relevent point to this argument.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:14:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Von Kroll on 01/03/2011 18:14:37
Originally by: Tony SoXai Edited by: Tony SoXai on 01/03/2011 18:08:20 [Eagle, MastahBlastah] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
70k ehp with a 177 dps tank with the Invuln overheated, 500 overheated dps, kinda slow, stable at 61% without the mwd or neut.
What version of EFT are you running? I don't get near these numbers in mine.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:16:00 -
[82]
Thats an impressive setup to be fair.
Youve managed to combine crap tank and crap damage into a 500million isk package.
Do you actually seriously go out in that thing?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:20:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Von Kroll [ What version of EFT are you running? I don't get near these numbers in mine.
His numbers seem fine, apart from the point where it's comprehensively outclassed by a T1 BC, of course. |
Aquana Abyss
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:32:00 -
[84]
Tony,
You're fast becoming the worst poster on this forum. Keep up the good work posting EFT fits on stuff you dont actually fly.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.01 18:38:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Tony SoXai
But this is how mine is fitted right now..
[Eagle, Rails] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Invulnerability Field II Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Dual 150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier I
I live in Frerstorn. Any time you want to bring this fit by, I'll be glad to 1v1 it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 20:48:00 -
[86]
Instead of going "Oh noes, worse stats than battlecruiser!!11" and "Come fight lolEagle!!" Why don't you all switch on your brains for a second, and take a look at your eve fitting tools.
Being faster and more agile than a battlecruiser is what HACs are for. It's the same reason everybody flies AFs over a destroyer; most destroyers will obliterate an AF, but the extra speed, maneuverability, and versatility of the AF makes it more useful and more survivable; escaping gatecamps and evading blobs becomes a lot easier; better for the lone wanderer.
I am, personally, not a huge fan of the Moa, or the Eagle, but nor am I a fan of the Zealot or Muninn. Those kinds of ships aren't exactly the best cutouts for solo. They are more geared toward fleet stuff; so I can sympathise with you people wanting the Eagle upgraded to fill it's role better, and apologise if it seemed I meant otherwise.
However, the Eagle is, by a longshot, equal and/or better/worse than those Hacs in it's class when sheer statistical analysis is taken into account, and not for a 200km sniperspree, but for actual usefulness to the average joe space traveler, hunter/killer.
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Shapeshifting Shaman
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Posted - 2011.03.01 21:21:00 -
[87]
You guys are falling for the troll here. Tony has been posting in every thread even remotely hybrid-related and filling it with super-sarcastic tripe.
I know, not even the normal troll will go so far as to say that the Eagle is an awesome ship, but Tony is not the normal troll.
Anyway. Yeah, the Eagle is pretty lacking. It has nice damage projection but little else going for it. Swap a range bonus for a RoF bonus, buff the power grid, maybe add an extra mid or a low. Extra mid can be used for a sensor booster / tracking computer for snipe fits, or a web for blaster fits.
Dual-web BEagle? Might be viable, too bad it is so slow that catching anything in the first place is difficult.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.01 21:35:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Shapeshifting Shaman It has nice damage projection but little else going for it. Swap a range bonus for a RoF bonus, buff the power grid, maybe add an extra mid or a low. Extra mid can be used for a sensor booster / tracking computer for snipe fits, or a web for blaster fits.
Dual-web BEagle? Might be viable, too bad it is so slow that catching anything in the first place is difficult.
Agreed.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.01 23:36:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Shapeshifting Shaman
Anyway. Yeah, the Eagle is pretty lacking. It has nice damage projection but little else going for it. Swap a range bonus for a RoF bonus
This will reduce the Eagle's DPS at 100 km.
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:16:00 -
[90]
Ill repeat this again.
Eagle has simply better dps then muninn, with quantiple tracking then all other hac's at (100-249km), in exchange of speed(not agility/ehp/sensor set) and some fitting.
Given any muninn fit, i could fit an eagle being competitive in every stat except speed and alpha, which to me is a decent tradeoff for having good dps and tracking.
it is also much much much cheaper.
and the reason people dont use it is not because of hybrids. it is because of zealot. railguns are fine as is, as long as you dont fit it on gallente.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.03.02 10:27:00 -
[91]
i thought id never see the serious bringing of eagle and dual 150s in a fit.
what a shockingly terribad combination.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:14:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 02/03/2011 11:15:48
Originally by: AristotleOnassis Ill repeat this again.
Eagle has simply better dps then muninn, with quantiple tracking then all other hac's at (100-249km), in exchange of speed(not agility/ehp/sensor set) and some fitting.
And I'll repeat this again, and maybe you'll read it this time.
The 11 DPS advantage of the thorium Eagle over the Tremor Muninn at 100 km exists only in EFT. The frontloading of damage via higher scan res and alpha means that the EFT DPS advantage of the Eagle requires about a minute of shooting for it to be realised. You cannot take these EFT numbers at face value.
As for EHP, well, post your fits.
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.02 11:28:00 -
[93]
as i said. eagle could drop its range script on its sebo if it needed scan resolution at sniping range.
when you are sniping, you want high targeting range and low scan res, so you can target faster. if you wanted to. without sacrificing range.
if you have high scan ress and low targeting range (like muninn/zeal) , then your range is limited.
as i said. given a muninn fit. which means, you point out a muninn fit. then i build my eagle which is relatively competetive given the price.
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:05:00 -
[94]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis Edited by: AristotleOnassis on 02/03/2011 11:38:56 as i said. eagle could drop its range script on its sebo if it needed scan resolution at sniping range.
Having high scanress when being forced to fit two targeting range adding mod is NOT an advantage, as the eagle can easily "duplicate" your targeting range and scan res by using scan res scripts.
as i said. given a muninn fit. which means, you point out a muninn fit. then i build my eagle which is relatively competetive given the price.
if i give a single eagle fit, obviously you an fit for more ehp (fit 2 lse 2 invul) , or fit more dps (2 damage rigs, 4 damage mods, artillery) , or fit more whatever. My point is being competetive with it.
but tbh, the whole argument is meaningless anyways. Zealot is simply too good.
relatively competetive fit given the price is very intresting concept :) You can always claim BUT IT IS CHEAPER !!!111
Ok, there is one of more or less standard sniper fits for muninn. So what will be competetive eagle fit?
[Muninn, Sniper] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ionic Field Projector I
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:41:00 -
[95]
ill probably stick to my cookie cutter fit, since you use mwd, which generally means im-not-gonna-tank-anything.
36 more dps with thorium and 3x tracking at 100km+, in exchange of 10% less ehp/speed/radius and some optimal.
i prefer the AB theme on my zealots/muninn . i dont see any reason to move fast with mwd, i just want to shoot as long as i want and warp to another bm.
switch in dc2 if you feel like it. Im not really into it.
[Eagle, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M Auto Targeting System II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:43:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 02/03/2011 13:45:01
The fits that I've been using for comparison are:
[Eagle, Thorium] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reactor Control Unit II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ionic Field Projector I
100/29 km, 243 DPS, 853 volley, 109 km lock range, 20235 EHP, 1354 m/s.
[Muninn, 100 mk] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor M [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Projectile Locus Coordinator I
105/28 km, 232 DPS, 1912 volley, 110 km lock range, 23812 EHP, 1616 m/s.
You refer to a SeBo on the Eagle - this must require dropping a TC, which drops your optimal to below 100 km and into falloff - edit, ah I see, dual ACR and TE. Second edit - your dual ACR fit doesn't fit.. I think you also referred to dual lock range mods on the Muninn, but in gang both can lock to about 120 km.
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.02 13:51:00 -
[97]
cutting the ionic rig will make your targeting range 110km-120. Its not really enough.
But notice the generic zealot fit 290 dps, 21.7k ehp, 1654 m/s.
So compared to whichever eagle fit, is there any reason to use the eagle (except its cheap) ? not to mention eagle has 25% em resists, while zealot has 73% kinetic resists.
[Zealot, LaserRapsody] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ionic Field Projector I
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.03.02 14:51:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 02/03/2011 14:52:21
Originally by: AristotleOnassis
i prefer the AB theme on my zealots/muninn . i dont see any reason to move fast with mwd, i just want to shoot as long as i want and warp to another bm.
This is your problem, and the main problem the Eagle have with competition.
You, and some other people, take your examples from a perspective of ideal conditions (defensive, bookmarks, pre-positioned, outnumbering etc) without giving leeway of that being condition and not taking into account when them being favourable to your opponent. That is not a good basis for comparison in a thread/forum discussing ship, balance and mechanics.
Stack enough conditional advantages in your favour and you can make anything look semi-reasonable in isolated examples.
If you instead looked at the larger picture you would see why the features that you tally up on each ship heavily weigh in the Muninn's favour (you even left out some of them). The dps advantage is conditional, as is the presumed range advtange, leaving you with the (albeit nice) tracking nische versus the alpha nische, about 1/4 less mobility in a gang based on mobility, less flexibility in a gang based on quick decisions and general fitting issues.
I'm leaving out the details with little to no importance (the differences in dps, ehp and optimal).
Sitting still in optimal the Eagle is comparable to the Muninn, in any other situation it will start to lose competetive edge. The Zealot is awesome in the same situation, the Zealot too however, will start losing the shine on it's crown a bit when you put the ships under pressure - where the Muninn can put some of the nice tricks up it's sleave to good use. While the Eagle may not be a one trick pony, it has severe limitations.
That leaves the Thorium Eagle almost competetive to some, yet undesirable to most.
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2011.03.02 23:05:00 -
[99]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis ill probably stick to my cookie cutter fit, since you use mwd, which generally means im-not-gonna-tank-anything.
36 more dps with thorium and 3x tracking at 100km+, in exchange of 10% less ehp/speed/radius and some optimal.
i prefer the AB theme on my zealots/muninn . i dont see any reason to move fast with mwd, i just want to shoot as long as i want and warp to another bm.
switch in dc2 if you feel like it. Im not really into it.
[Eagle, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Large Shield Extender II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M 250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M Auto Targeting System II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Are you joking? I give standard fit that can be fitted with common Weapon Upgrades 5 / Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4. You answered with fit that not only have targeting range about 20% less than my but that can not be fitted even with perfect skills without 3% pg implants.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.03 00:05:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Darth Felin
Are you joking? I give standard fit that can be fitted with common Weapon Upgrades 5 / Advanced Weapon Upgrades 4. You answered with fit that not only have targeting range about 20% less than my but that can not be fitted even with perfect skills without 3% pg implants.
A ship being hard to fit doesn't make it underpowered, and really the only thing the 3% hardwiring implies is that you can't use a pirate implant set with it. Not that I support what the guy's saying or his fits... just saying.
Fakeedit: Boost the Eagle. I don't want to be forced into reprocessing more of them.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.03 06:03:00 -
[101]
I simply imported my eve fit so it didnt have targeting range fitted.
eagle with sebo has more targeting range then muninn with sebo + range rig. If your fitting skills suk, u can downgrade LSE to meta4 but then it is your own fault.
My point still stands tho. Eagle is a fine ship, it has its own advantages compared to the muninn.
i disagree that eagle needs a buff. it is zealot that needs a nerf. Also, gallente is horrible at sniping. buffing eagle will make it broken compared to the muninn, specially if you include the price of it.
any damage bonus is going to make the eagle too cost effective. any range bonus will allow the eagle to upgrade to lead. which translates to even more damage bonus.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.03 06:56:00 -
[102]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis i disagree that eagle needs a buff. it is zealot that needs a nerf.
You're wrong.
Quote: buffing eagle will make it broken compared to the muninn, specially if you include the price of it.
You're wrong, and you're wrong. If the Eagle were "broken" compared to the Muninn, the price would go up. Simple supply and demand.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.03 08:50:00 -
[103]
Using implants etc. is fine if you're asking "Can I get a usable fit out of this ship?" You can load an Eagle up on Frentix and a 3% optimal implant and get into Uranium range for 270 DPS, for example. But I think that if you're asking "Are these ships balanced?" then the requirement for one to use a 3% grid implant is really demonstrating that this ship needs more PG...
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.03 09:11:00 -
[104]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis I simply imported my eve fit so it didnt have targeting range fitted.
eagle with sebo has more targeting range then muninn with sebo + range rig. If your fitting skills suk, u can downgrade LSE to meta4 but then it is your own fault.
My point still stands tho. Eagle is a fine ship, it has its own advantages compared to the muninn.
i disagree that eagle needs a buff. it is zealot that needs a nerf. Also, gallente is horrible at sniping. buffing eagle will make it broken compared to the muninn, specially if you include the price of it.
any damage bonus is going to make the eagle too cost effective. any range bonus will allow the eagle to upgrade to lead. which translates to even more damage bonus.
oh another matar fanboy i see.... who thought?:O oh my poor muninn wont be the best sniper hac bruhuhu, gimme my muninn best performance at 110km too bruhuhu
Yeah how could be other ships viable other than matar? especially at sniping ,as we all know which is the primary style for matarian warfare. If it is about range then use matar ,so no dont boost eagle just nerf zealot ,that way you can happily use your trash ship knowing nothing else can come close to your efficiency no matter the circumstances, oh they are at range you alpha /dps them down , if they warp close you mwd+dronefest them + alpha +dps them down , yeah totally balanced...
So pls quit your matar whine, and help the game to be more balanced ,not that ccp cares at all.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.03 09:24:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Naomi Knight ....
Its a crying shame when Naomi is one of the better posters on Eve-O. God Eve-O forums have gone to ****.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.03 10:31:00 -
[106]
Edited by: AristotleOnassis on 03/03/2011 10:32:46
Quote: Using implants etc. is fine if you're asking "Can I get a usable fit out of this ship?" You can load an Eagle up on Frentix and a 3% optimal implant and get into Uranium range for 270 DPS, for example. But I think that if you're asking "Are these ships balanced?" then the requirement for one to use a 3% grid implant is really demonstrating that this ship needs more PG...
I need 3% implants to make either hm OR ham drake fits to work. and lv 4 awu.
Its a natural theme for caldari ships. None of the slot 6 implants give them damage or tank, so its only natural for any caldari spec pvp toon to have a 3% implant on it.
To me, there is still no argument here which argued against my verdict.
amarr battleships , hac, and capitals needs a big hard nerf, NOT hybrids needing a buff. Its kinda sad that only amarr battleships, capitals, and sniping hacs which are used the most. They should be removed from being the top 20 used ships to allow other race to have a chance. like minmatar.
minmatar is already at the sweet spot, so it is fine.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.03 11:19:00 -
[107]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis
Quote: Using implants etc. is fine if you're asking "Can I get a usable fit out of this ship?" You can load an Eagle up on Frentix and a 3% optimal implant and get into Uranium range for 270 DPS, for example. But I think that if you're asking "Are these ships balanced?" then the requirement for one to use a 3% grid implant is really demonstrating that this ship needs more PG...
I need 3% implants to make either hm OR ham drake fits to work. and lv 4 awu.
Correct. But you can get a perfectly good Drake fit without those implants, whereas your Eagle simply doesn't fit without it at all. One is a luxury, the other is a necessity.
Quote: Its a natural theme for caldari ships. None of the slot 6 implants give them damage or tank, so its only natural for any caldari spec pvp toon to have a 3% implant on it.
Not to be pedantic, but torp damage implant is slot 6. So is Cruise damage, but that's beyond niche.
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IceBergSlim
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:41:00 -
[108]
god-dayum, you guys get into things. i'm happy in my ignorance. this 'Liang' bird though, gotta' say, great poster. rarely gobs off. Tony Soxai? reminds me of a village idiot. mildly annoying but fundamental to the entertainment. |
AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.03 15:52:00 -
[109]
Quote: Correct. But you can get a perfectly good Drake fit without those implants, whereas your Eagle simply doesn't fit without it at all. One is a luxury, the other is a necessity.
u mean an mwdless/t1 ham/2 bcu ham fit?
losing one bcu is 200% worst then having to fit a 3% implant. it is 100% unacceptable.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.03 16:51:00 -
[110]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis
Quote: Correct. But you can get a perfectly good Drake fit without those implants, whereas your Eagle simply doesn't fit without it at all. One is a luxury, the other is a necessity.
u mean an mwdless/t1 ham/2 bcu ham fit?
losing one bcu is 200% worst then having to fit a 3% implant. it is 100% unacceptable.
Now you're just being obtuse. With AWU IV you can build a competitive T2 HAM Drake with MWD. With AWU V, it gets better. You can argue the tank vs. gank depending on fittings, but the value of the ship and fits remains. But the Moa, Ferox, Eagle all require a RC regardless of your AWU skill, and that provides a pretty hefty performance penalty vis a vis the other aspects of the ship.
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.03.03 17:11:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Tagami Wasp on 03/03/2011 17:12:43
Originally by: AristotleOnassis
Eagle is a fine ship, it has its own advantages compared to the muninn.
i disagree that eagle needs a buff. it is zealot that needs a nerf. Also, gallente is horrible at sniping. buffing eagle will make it broken compared to the muninn, specially if you include the price of it.
any damage bonus is going to make the eagle too cost effective. any range bonus will allow the eagle to upgrade to lead. which translates to even more damage bonus.
Let me make it clear. Having done the analysis and talked about this issue for ages, let me agree with Liang.
You are wrong. There are a lot of issues with hybrids and Caldari ships in general, PG-wise, but CCP hasn't even acknowledged it.
P.S. The only part where I disagree with Liang is that there is no need for a range buf, but a direct damage increase for railguns (and maybe blasters as well). This will bring more balance to the game. ------------
+15% to railguns' dmg modifier -reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70% +10% to Caldari railboats PG |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.03 17:32:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Tagami Wasp
P.S. The only part where I disagree with Liang is that there is no need for a range buf, but a direct damage increase for railguns (and maybe blasters as well). This will bring more balance to the game.
Small potatoes differences tbh. I'll probably be happy whatever they do to fix the problem - as long as both the weapons and ******ed ship fittings get fixed.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.03 17:34:00 -
[113]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis
Quote: Correct. But you can get a perfectly good Drake fit without those implants, whereas your Eagle simply doesn't fit without it at all. One is a luxury, the other is a necessity.
u mean an mwdless/t1 ham/2 bcu ham fit?
losing one bcu is 200% worst then having to fit a 3% implant. it is 100% unacceptable.
Oh stop crying, a dual BCS HAM Drake is still competitive. But you don't have to fit dual BCS, just drop a HAML for a HML. Or are you going to complain about the 3% reduction in raw missile DPS?
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.03.03 23:59:00 -
[114]
Its up to you really. to me, losing one bcu is 200% worst then not using implants. Ive shown caldari could fit fine, as long as it uses the implant, which does not coincide with any damage implants.
to me, hybrids are fine. I have justified the reason to use eagle. at sniping range, it has as much dps and quantiple the tracking of other hac's. Furthermore, by dropping a tc you can shoot 249km which is niche, but still a very special ability.
I think buffing hybrids isnt going to change anything. zealot will still be overpowered.
instead of buffing hybrids, it is amarr battleships, hacs and capital lineups that needs to be nerfed. it is unacceptable that only amarr battleships/hac/carriers are the only bs/snipehac/capitals which are used among their ship class most of the time. I think its about time lasers get a nerf, so that other races, like minmatar, could get more of their ships on the ranks/ specially the capital/bs class.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.04 00:02:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 04/03/2011 00:04:14 Requiring a slot 6 implant means you can't use a pirate implant set. Ultimately, whatever you say is meaningless because the price of Eagles is still so low that they're barely above refine price, which is well below even the production cost of a T2 BPO.
-Liang
Ed: Also, you cannot seriously advocate nerfing everything until blasters are "balanced". The change set would be too large to have predictable results and the risk to balance would be grave indeed. Perhaps such a thing would have been reasonable/possible before the projectile boost... but now?
No. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.04 12:06:00 -
[116]
I will say this again.
Change the probe mechanics and increase the grid size to something like 400 km and the lock cap to match it. Then all the sudden there is a clearly defined edge and advantage to rail guns. Do not need to do anything else. 249 km + sniping distances are great advantage now caldari have a distinct racial flavor now that means something and can not be probed down in 15 seconds.
Then all you need to do is to change blasters a bit and suddenly you have a game with all 4 factions having their set of advantages but overal are in OK balance. Pod |
Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:53:00 -
[117]
You know a weapon system is borked that if CCP implemented a 10% damage boost to railguns, the Eagle still wouldnt be flown and rail BS's would still be shunned from fleet engagements, and lol Deimos.
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.05 02:44:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Rastigan You know a weapon system is borked that if CCP implemented a 10% damage boost to railguns, the Eagle still wouldnt be flown and rail BS's would still be shunned from fleet engagements, and lol Deimos.
Projectiles were in much the same boat (slightly over) a year ago, just FYI.
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2011.03.05 03:41:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Target Painter
Projectiles were in much the same boat (slightly over) a year ago, just FYI.
No they weren't. The majority of projectile ships had no problem what so ever a rough year ago, before the projectile buff hit.
People were using Vagas for nano stuff, Muninns for LR stuff, Canes, Sleipnirs, Ruptures, Huginns, Rapiers etc. They were being used alot, just as much as they are now.
The only ships that had some amount of issue were the battleships. I'm not one to side with the people who complain that projectiles are unacceptable as they are now, they are powerful but that's tolerable. However, the main thing that patch achieved was making a bunch of already good ships slightly better. Trying to claim that they sorely needed the changes is an outright lie.
It's the same line of thought that comes from people who want to change hybrids with the most mindless and grand scale ideas right now.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.05 04:31:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Noisrevbus No they weren't. The majority of projectile ships had no problem what so ever a rough year ago, before the projectile buff hit.
No, you're wrong. The majority of ships sucked and were only used because there was no other option or they could run away better than the competition. Claiming otherwise is an outright lie.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.03.05 04:32:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Originally by: Target Painter
Projectiles were in much the same boat (slightly over) a year ago, just FYI.
No they weren't. The majority of projectile ships had no problem what so ever a rough year ago, before the projectile buff hit.
People were using Vagas for nano stuff, Muninns for LR stuff, Canes, Sleipnirs, Ruptures, Huginns, Rapiers etc. They were being used alot, just as much as they are now.
The only ships that had some amount of issue were the battleships. I'm not one to side with the people who complain that projectiles are unacceptable as they are now, they are powerful but that's tolerable. However, the main thing that patch achieved was making a bunch of already good ships slightly better. Trying to claim that they sorely needed the changes is an outright lie.
It's the same line of thought that comes from people who want to change hybrids with the most mindless and grand scale ideas right now.
This. Compare the vaga or sleipnir before the buffs to the diemost or astarte now. Not saying that matari ships didn't need some love (though at the time it would have been simpler to just nerf lasers and be done with it) but even then matari outdid gallente more often than not, and then CCP came along and gave them massive boosts, to bring them up to the level of lasers, leaving hybrids in the dust. |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.05 05:16:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Cambarus though at the time it would have been simpler to just nerf lasers and be done with it
Whats done is done, unfortunately. Its funny how people see that now but flamed me so hard for suggesting it then.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.03.05 06:34:00 -
[123]
Quote: majority of ships sucked
Whats new? Even currently majority of ships suk.
You only need a single do-it-all ship per race for the race to be decent. Look at Drake. You dont need any other caldari ship. cept the drake.
and maybe falcon.
Same goes to hybrid. No matter how bad it is, people still use domi and ishtar. People also train gallente for machariel. Myrm too.
In reality, hybrids are fine, as gallente relies more on drones. and caldari rails are decent at what they do (super long range snipin).
The only thing that needs to go is lasers. scorch has no place in EVE. beams needs to shed a quarter of its dps.
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.03.05 07:10:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cambarus though at the time it would have been simpler to just nerf lasers and be done with it
Whats done is done, unfortunately. Its funny how people see that now but flamed me so hard for suggesting it then.
-Liang
I seem to recall the split between people for and against nerfing amarr being similar to the current split for/against buffing gallente. There were quite a few people who claimed that in terms of balance either lasers needed a nerf, or projectiles AND hybrids needed a buff. CCP went with the latter, but forgot the second half. |
Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.05 07:26:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cambarus though at the time it would have been simpler to just nerf lasers and be done with it
Whats done is done, unfortunately. Its funny how people see that now but flamed me so hard for suggesting it then.
-Liang
I seem to recall the split between people for and against nerfing amarr being similar to the current split for/against buffing gallente. There were quite a few people who claimed that in terms of balance either lasers needed a nerf, or projectiles AND hybrids needed a buff. CCP went with the latter, but forgot the second half.
yep this was the case , back then hybrids were the least used ships now they are just extinct, strange why those didnt get the their boost,i blame stupid lazy matar fanboy devs...
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Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2011.03.05 12:28:00 -
[126]
No, blame the community. Projectile supporters came up with dozens of threads and ideas. Some of those ideas found their way onto TQ. Gayllente and Caldari just whined that laser ships replaced their toys in their respective roles.
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:03:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Jacob Stov No, blame the community. Projectile supporters came up with dozens of threads and ideas. Some of those ideas found their way onto TQ. Gayllente and Caldari just whined that laser ships replaced their toys in their respective roles.
There are already lots of threads with suggestions on how to fix hybrids, not that it should be the players job to come up with fixes to balancing issues in the first place, and let's not forget that the devs seem to think that blasters/rails are fine as they are, IIRC someone posted the logs from a CCP/CSM discussion and the CCP attitude was essentially "Well blasters are supposed to put out more damage at close range and this is what they currently do." |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:36:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Jacob Stov No, blame the community. Projectile supporters came up with dozens of threads and ideas. Some of those ideas found their way onto TQ. Gayllente and Caldari just whined that laser ships replaced their toys in their respective roles.
There are already lots of threads with suggestions on how to fix hybrids, not that it should be the players job to come up with fixes to balancing issues in the first place, and let's not forget that the devs seem to think that blasters/rails are fine as they are, IIRC someone posted the logs from a CCP/CSM discussion and the CCP attitude was essentially "Well blasters are supposed to put out more damage at close range and this is what they currently do."
What you guys need is some really effective forum warriors that do more than just complain its broken. You need graphs, theories, and practical examples of why it isn't as good as it should be.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:48:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Jacob Stov No, blame the community. Projectile supporters came up with dozens of threads and ideas. Some of those ideas found their way onto TQ. Gayllente and Caldari just whined that laser ships replaced their toys in their respective roles.
There are already lots of threads with suggestions on how to fix hybrids, not that it should be the players job to come up with fixes to balancing issues in the first place, and let's not forget that the devs seem to think that blasters/rails are fine as they are, IIRC someone posted the logs from a CCP/CSM discussion and the CCP attitude was essentially "Well blasters are supposed to put out more damage at close range and this is what they currently do."
What you guys need is some really effective forum warriors that do more than just complain its broken. You need graphs, theories, and practical examples of why it isn't as good as it should be.
-Liang
See my many posts on the subject of large blasters. |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.05 16:51:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Cambarus See my many posts on the subject of large blasters.
Hey, blasters are awesome and outdamage everything close range. Prove me wrong. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.03.05 17:42:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Jacob Stov No, blame the community. Projectile supporters came up with dozens of threads and ideas. Some of those ideas found their way onto TQ. Gayllente and Caldari just whined that laser ships replaced their toys in their respective roles.
There are already lots of threads with suggestions on how to fix hybrids, not that it should be the players job to come up with fixes to balancing issues in the first place, and let's not forget that the devs seem to think that blasters/rails are fine as they are, IIRC someone posted the logs from a CCP/CSM discussion and the CCP attitude was essentially "Well blasters are supposed to put out more damage at close range and this is what they currently do."
What you guys need is some really effective forum warriors that do more than just complain its broken. You need graphs, theories, and practical examples of why it isn't as good as it should be.
-Liang
Hey Liang. This has been done to death in almost every form possible by CCP's paying customers already. How many threads in the various sections, in W&T, S&M (lol), the Assembly Hall, General and external places like SHC etc?
If CCP haven't noticed it by now ( and knowing CCP that is possible) then they aren't going to notice it any time soon. As it is, they're too busy entertaining the PG13 crowd with Incarna.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.05 18:13:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Hey, blasters are awesome and outdamage everything close range. Prove me wrong. :)
Aside from the fact that those thread do prove you wrong, there's also the matter of what counts as "outdamage" and "close range" and whether those two actually combine to form "awesome".
If blasters do 1 DPS more than pulse lasers at <500m, then your condition is fulfilled. That doesn't mean the two are balanced properly (much less make them "awesome"), since that condition is broken once we move out to 501m, once we apply transversal speeds, and once we apply the usage costs of the respective weapons on their intended platforms. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.05 18:41:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Hey Liang. This has been done to death in almost every form possible by CCP's paying customers already. How many threads in the various sections, in W&T, S&M (lol), the Assembly Hall, General and external places like SHC etc?
If CCP haven't noticed it by now ( and knowing CCP that is possible) then they aren't going to notice it any time soon. As it is, they're too busy entertaining the PG13 crowd with Incarna.
This is why blasters aren't getting boosted. When we campaigned for the projectile boost, it was literally years of massive forum warrioring and proving the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. We never gave up hope. And we won.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.03.05 19:45:00 -
[134]
It was also selfish, foolish and flat wrong. The Rifter, Rupture, Thrasher, Sabre, Hurricane, Sleipnir, Muninn, Vagabond were all competitive and did not need boosting. The problem only existed on the BS and capital level.
I mean, what kind of crazy logic did people use to decide that, out of Vagabond and Deimos, that the Minmatar ship needed boosting? Or the Sabre out of any of the interdictors? Or the Thrasher? It was probably the worst balancing decision in recent years and shows that comparing weapons systems without due regard to the hulls that they were mounted on leads to nonsense conclusions.
But we can't close Pandora's Box now. Well, we could, but CCP won't. So we'll probably get some sort of ill-thought out flat hybrid boost that overpowers hybrid frigates and makes the Megathron a better sniper than the Rokh.
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Tony SoXai
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Posted - 2011.03.05 19:50:00 -
[135]
If it's a hybrid boost it will effect caldari hybrid boats just as much as gal; the Mega will NOT become a better sniper than the rohk as a result.
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Cambarus
Thunderfury Blessed Blade of the Windseeker
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Posted - 2011.03.05 19:56:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hey, blasters are awesome and outdamage everything close range. Prove me wrong. :) -Liang
If you're going to be a smartass:
Navy mega: 7 neutron blasters, void L, 4 t2 damage mods, biggest avaiable drones, no overheating with perfect skills: 1322 DPS
CNR (same number of weapon hardpoints) 7 siege launchers, t2 rage ammo, etc.: 1516 DPS
On a more realistic note, the geddon ODs a mega with the same number of damage mods at 8km, and even at optimal for the mega, the difference in DPS is less than 10% |
The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.05 22:30:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cambarus See my many posts on the subject of large blasters.
Hey, blasters are awesome and outdamage everything close range. Prove me wrong. :)
-Liang
They don't compared to gank fitted mini hulls, not in any possible scenario where it would make sense to use them(solo and small gang). The main problem is that you can't prove blasters are crap via eft numbers, since they are fundamentally broken regarding the game mechanics they need to deal with since QR(where they don't do her EFT damage, where they are crap at getting tackle, getting neuted to hell and back because the game forces next to any small gang ship to neuts or being unable to hold stuff at her range till the target dies).
As for the mini buff, it depends a lot on the hull. Rifter, Rupture and Cane where good before for obvious reasons, what it really archived was that the pest went for trash to good as a BS. Even a bit more in very skilled hands, but this has mostly to do with the current state of BS as it self and less with the pest. However I did see the lack of DPS as the main issue for the pest, where pattern did see it mostly in the lack of range. Retrospective he was right, even if the added dps by improved T1/faction ammo and selectable damage types really helped to bring the applied damage to the very good levels where they are today.
Back to the Eagle, it is mostly the lack of pg that limits it in his current role. However, even if you fix this, the ship lacks at least a 2. more useful role than extreme range sniper HAC. This role obvious depends a lot on what CCP does with rails in the end. Extreme fast tracking med range hac would get my vote, where it lacks the tracking and some kind of flexibility atm(mostly drones, speed and the pg/cpu to really tank it proper to survive this environment). I know the Drake does the same pretty good atm, however more speed, instant damage and the ability to fight at various combat ranges with a turret based DPS ship would not be to bad moving the Eagle closer towards day to day combat roles outside of specialized gangs.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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