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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2011.03.04 07:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Cista2 on 04/03/2011 07:55:09
On the Cosmoray thread Akita T asks:
Originally by: Akita T How many people are left in the "ran or still running high-ticket public fund deals and not scammed yet" group ? ... about four or so ?
First off, Cosmo wasn't among the cream if you look at his numbers.
Anyway, it should be easy to measure out who is really up there.
There are two numbers that are useful for it: 1) The sum of isk that has been handed back to investors over time 2) The highest borrowed amount you have had in your pocket at any one time
For myself, the numbers are 1) 210 bn isk 2) around 110 bn isk in summer 2010
- and I don't have any noteworthy liabilities now (around 10 bn that some people refused to withdraw)
I would say that TournSoul, Chribba and Grendell(?) tower those figures. Chribba and Grendell holding 100s of bn as 3rd party is just as remarkable as selling shares. TS has probably handled a trillion in her time but I am not sure of she holds more than 100 bn at a time though?
Apart from that I believe RAW could be up there somewhere, but who else? LadyofWrath sold her shop to Varo Jan, but have the investors seen that isk yet?
There is also F900EX or whatever his name is, but his reputation took a dip with a botched magabond he had. ----------------------- "Signatures" trade chatroom / Universal Railways |
Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.03.04 08:12:00 -
[2]
/butthurt you didn't mention me or AC155.
TS has probably held close to a trillion at single time if you sum it all up; lotto, bmbe, big deal, etc.
Not in the Exchange, don't invest! |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.03.04 08:23:00 -
[3]
Hexxx held 500+ Billion (only by a few billion) in his personal wallet when Riddic revealed his scam. 100% of that went to people withdrawing ISK from EBANK.
Amarr for Life |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 09:48:00 -
[4]
In some form or other I held more than 100B of 3rd party money / assets in my EvE life.
I don't find it something paticularly "willy measurement" worth.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.04 10:12:00 -
[5]
Total handed back from bonds and private loans: 100bil from bonds, probably 50-60 in private loans from flakeys and others(there have been a lot of these for various periods of time and I don't have complete details on them). There has also been a good amount of overcollateral on loans returned (e.g. Nyx BPO as collateral for a 7bil debt) and I haven't counted my collateralised loans and bonds, which probably add up to another 100bil.
I'm not really sure what value this number has though as someone running a sequence of 10 one month 10 bil bonds will log a lot of isk from the short period of the bonds.
The more important figure for tracking someone's risk profile, in my opinion, is largest unsecured amount held at any one time. The figure for purely public funds raised on MD is 40bil, plus 25bil in third party/overcollateralised holding. I have access to considerably more ingame in some corps of which I am a member. So, my epeen is pretty small on this front but I have always tried to keep my public borrowing to a minimum absolute number and a small number in proportion to my NAV.
TS reported c. 500bil when asked this question a while back, iirc, with nearly half of that coming from the triple titan lottery.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.03.04 10:24:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha In some form or other I held more than 100B of 3rd party money / assets in my EvE life.
I don't find it something paticularly "willy measurement" worth.
Then why mention it? Back under your bridge.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 10:43:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 04/03/2011 10:43:41
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha In some form or other I held more than 100B of 3rd party money / assets in my EvE life.
I don't find it something paticularly "willy measurement" worth.
Then why mention it? Back under your bridge.
I tried to bring in a Dante's retaliation law rethorical figure. I suppose you didn't get it. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Blueprint Woman
One Stop Research Shop One Stop Research
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Posted - 2011.03.04 10:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cista2 Edited by: Cista2 on 04/03/2011 08:03:01
LadyofWrath sold her shop to Varo Jan, but have the investors seen that isk yet?
One Stop converted from a public offering locked down by Grendell to a private loan issued by Grendell on the 30th June 2010. All investors were repaid, I believe the figure was 175b.
For the record One Stop remains under private financing and lockdown. Varo passed ownership and liability to me between August and November 2010. To date I've paid over 55b in interest on the agreement.
As private financing it's not relevant to this discussion, the above is mentioned purely for clarification. There's no purpose in continued public reporting on this, as there are no plans to refinance via the public arena, which is why things have been quiet with regards One Stop since 2010.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.03.04 11:10:00 -
[9]
Public debt handled: 0.00 Total interest paid: 0.00
Is my Willy long enough?
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.04 11:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Estel Arador Public debt handled: 0.00 Total interest paid: 0.00
Is my Willy long enough?
Null willy, best willy.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.03.04 11:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I tried to bring in a Dante's retaliation law rethorical figure. I suppose you didn't get it.
You misspelt 'rhetorical'. I guess you didn't catch that one.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.04 11:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Bumblefck
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I tried to bring in a Dante's retaliation law rethorical figure. I suppose you didn't get it.
You misspelt 'rhetorical'. I guess you didn't catch that one.
A typo??? On an internet forum????? My god man, the world must be ending! Fortunately we have clever people like you to pick out trivial details and comment on them. Go you!! What would we do without such powerful posting?
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.04 12:47:00 -
[13]
I hope you guys realize that it's exactly this kind of (btw. totally unsubstantiated) chest beating that helped people like cosmoray cultivate their image of being unerring. After all those years you seemingly still want to believe people who had access to X billions with X being large are beyond reasonable doubt when history clearly shows that it is exactly those people who conduct the most successful scams.
Pretty sure the next rep grinder will love to see this thread. I'll leave with a few little cosmoray quotes. Maybe someone will actually think about it and what it means for this thread (nah, probably not...).
"Since time began (MD time at least) the top active people have been tagged as MD elite. After my expansion I ended up in this group kind of by default. I had been active for nearly 2 years, ran a successful (to the public) business, and a few older MD Elites left which automatically promoted the new group."
"When the huge EBANK debacle happened in August 2009 a large group of old guard were swept out of MD, further enhancing the reputation of those left. By default myself, Bad Bobby, Ray, Block, Tornsoul and a few up and comers were left at the top."
"I began to talk up my loan business (which didnĘt exist). Well by talking it up I acquired a loan business and did quite a few significant loans."
As a matter of fact RAW32 seems to be in a position right now where a lot of people would throw a lot of money at him without asking questions. I'm not saying he's a scammer he could be the most honorable person for all I care. I'm simply stating he already has enough 'rep' around here to easily go the same route so many others have taken. A guy talking a lot about ethics that made 'hundreds of billions' in only a year can't be a scammer, right?
I'll be back when the next person trades his "willy" for hard isk. --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.04 12:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Myra2007 snipsnip
Not sure what you are talking about, nobody in here and none of the sensible MD people have ever said "he has so much isk he wont scam lol!" so where are you getting that from? In fact, I'm pretty sure RAW at least does the exact opposite by asking how much public funding is at risk here, what is the exposure, gee that's a lot of isk isn't it? etc.
As for RAW going rogue, well he's always very careful not to have too much outstanding debt when compared to his NAV, so I guess we'll know when he decides to cash in by the fact he starts grabbing all he can get, and if that happens then anyone throwing money at him is a tit because it'll be kinda obvious what the result is going to be. He wont go rogue I think, he goes out of his way to NOT be in a position to scam as much as he COULD get hold of.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:04:00 -
[15]
Quote:
After all those years you seemingly still want to believe people who had access to X billions with X being large are beyond reasonable doubt when history clearly shows that it is exactly those people who conduct the most successful scams.
Well, I have said so many times that people who believe that being e-rich is any form of guarantee are just preys awaiting to be eaten.
The "he's too rich to want to scam" is as idiotic as "this bank is too big to fail".
Yet, once again, RL and EvE get to the ultimate epiphany, hand in hand.
Quote:
I'm simply stating he already has enough 'rep' around here to easily go the same route so many others have taken. A guy talking a lot about ethics that made 'hundreds of billions' in only a year can't be a scammer, right?
I have THE cure. Force RAW23 to become an auditor! He'll instantly be defaced, sh!t all over, torched, ripped into pieces, diced, ridiculed, vomited upon, called names.
Do you know of a better cure to rep than this?
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I have THE cure. Force RAW23 to become an auditor! He'll instantly be defaced, sh!t all over, torched, ripped into pieces, diced, ridiculed, vomited upon, called names.
Two auditors, one cup? ...
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Cista2 on 04/03/2011 13:14:46
Originally by: Myra2007 I hope you guys realize that it's exactly this kind of (btw. totally unsubstantiated) chest beating that helped people like cosmoray cultivate their image of being unerring.
It's chestbeating for sure, but it's not ubsubstantiated at all.
Since people know Chribba is Chribba they trust him with anything. Same with TornSoul. On a smaller scale, since most people on MD know I had more than 100 bn borrowed last year, they can be quite certain I won't scam for amounts like 10 bn or with something minuscule like the Universal Railways. Same goes for RAW.
Cosmo really never had that history. Same goes for Bad Bobby, who didn't have any track record to justify the huge amounts he took in. And Curzon Dax...omg. But look what happened recently to that guy 900FX (or whatever) who came and asked for 1 trillion isk. He had more chestbeating than anyone, but it turned out it wasn't substantiated by his track record.
So this thread is just a fun thread, but it may also serve as a reminder to investors to think about the history, rather than the presentation, of those they throw their isk at. ----------------------- "Signatures" trade chatroom / Universal Railways |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I have THE cure. Force RAW23 to become an auditor! He'll instantly be defaced, sh!t all over, torched, ripped into pieces, diced, ridiculed, vomited upon, called names.
Please show me on the doll where MD touched you..
(Don't confuse the way you are treated with the way auditors are treated; the fact that you are a bombastic and contemptuous dolt doesn't mean all auditors are.)
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Not sure what you are talking about, nobody in here and none of the sensible MD people have ever said "he has so much isk he wont scam lol!" so where are you getting that from?
Observation of previous scams. People don't need to say it to believe it. And what exactly is this thread about if its not about presenting yourself as someone who has held billions of isk without failing to pay up?
Originally by: Caldariftw123
As for RAW going rogue, well he's always very careful not to have too much outstanding debt when compared to his NAV, so I guess we'll know when he decides to cash in by the fact he starts grabbing all he can get, and if that happens then anyone throwing money at him is a tit because it'll be kinda obvious what the result is going to be.
Obvious to you - maybe. Obvious to the general investor around here? You're kidding right? I mean seriously you are trying to make a joke here? How exactly do you think all of the past scams have been so successful? --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:36:00 -
[20]
When the lemmings are forming lines to do more work for less profit, don't join them; help them give you their profits
Quote:
Don't confuse the way you are treated with the way auditors are treated
I am sure it's quite easy to see how everyone trying to become one is treated, just dig that rusty eve-search you know like your backside.
Quote:
Random garbage
Here, here *pats the screeching angry guinea pig*.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Myra2007
Obvious to you - maybe. Obvious to the general investor around here? You're kidding right? I mean seriously you are trying to make a joke here? How exactly do you think all of the past scams have been so successful?
If average joe comes in and throws a billion isk at something then there's nothing I can do to stop it. If people just simply ask for isk and are then given it despite the dozens of threads and hundreds of posts here in MD talking about why it's a bad idea to not know what you are doing but still do it anyway then sorry, not really my problem - CCP have given NO tools to secure investments, that is how the scams are successful. We do what we can to 'police' via our posting and sharing of knowledge in the threads that crop up but at the end of the day people still get parted with their isk from scams, there's only so much we can do. So yes I say it would be an OBVIOUS sign that RAW could be cashing out, and if I ever saw it I would say so in the thread, but if people still give it isk then it becomes their problem after that.
Even in cosmoray's early IPO launches people raised questions, in fact he has had questions raised against him so many times in the past that I think quite honestly the only isk he did manage to get (and it doesn't sound like a lot for 3-4years work, sounds more like he just simply failed and called it a scam instead) was from average joes, no-names, or people that may well have been in on it (riccdic, BadBobby) themselves for all I know.
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Cista2 It's chestbeating for sure, but it's not ubsubstantiated at all.
I'm sure many of you are people who really are smart with the business and can turn a nice profit. I also believe some of you have more isk than you need and that some of you play for entirely different goals than to take away from others.
What I mean when I say unsubstantiated is that an investor cannot tell if anything of that is "real". Last week cosmoray may have posted in a thread just like this to increase his reputation. At that time people would also have said it wasn't unsubstantiated at all. So the difference between Cosmoray the successful entrepeneur and business pioneer and Cosmoray the scammer and gambler amounts to nothing but what people think about him in this forum (and elsewhere in game).
You pointed out how cosmo never had a track record of holding that much and that's true. He did however throw things around like "I've held 100b in loans" etc. and was never really called out on things like that. To the average investor around here that clearly was enough to give him the exact same credibility someone like you might have.
Originally by: Cista2
Since people know Chribba is Chribba they trust him with anything. Same with TornSoul.
Possibly a big mistake. But of course some people need to play the good guys.
Originally by: Cista2
On a smaller scale, since most people on MD know I had more than 100 bn borrowed last year, they can be quite certain I won't scam for amounts like 10 bn or with something minuscule like the Universal Railways. Same goes for RAW.
100% agreed. I'm merely stating that based on observations of previous scams people have the tendency to "green light" people after passing some hurdles and jumping some loops. I also tried to point out that "knowing" you did this and that is very relative. Last week all we "knew" was how Cosmoray is a big player who had held billions of public isk and always paid out.
Originally by: Cista2
Cosmo really never had that history.
And yet people assumed he was trustworthy and part of the inner circle. But I do see your point. Information like this can be useful in estimating risks. Maybe more than I initially admitted. I still think that the next big time scammer will be someone who would have posted in threads like this without anyone ever really investigating his claims of having held so many billions.
Originally by: Cista2
So this thread is just a fun thread, but it may also serve as a reminder to investors to think about the history, rather than the presentation, of those they throw their isk at.
Well that would be a good thing I guess. --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.04 13:51:00 -
[23]
Edited by: RAW23 on 04/03/2011 13:54:32 Myra - Most of what you say here is entirely true. It is far too easy for someone who has some 'rep' to raise more money with the minimum of questions asked. I have, fairly consistently, tried to argue that large borrowers, myself emphatically included, need to face far more scrutiny than they often do (I've even wondered if the responsible thing to do would just be to put a hard cap on borrowing and say 'I will never take on more exposure than X' given the statistics suggesting it is a bad idea to invest in anyone asking for more than X). But I think things are moving in the right direction. It is worth noting that Cosmo was not able to leverage his reputation sufficiently to get his last secured bond filled. Nor was Darkness able to pick up 65bil on rep alone. And BSAC, despite increasing their exposure by about 50% through the cash reserve with no questions asked at all, ran into something of a wall when they asked for even more. So, I would encourage you and everyone else to be particularly unwavering in your demands when it comes to big offerings from established names. This won't remove all scams but it will make life harder for scammers.
As to this thread, I don't see a problem. I'm quite pleased with the returns I have provided to my investors and one of the things I'm happiest about with regard to the numbers above is that my public exposure has only increased fractionally in the last 11 months. I had a 40bil bond out in March last year. I currently have 40bil of public debt and the only increases have been in the occassional holding of collateral. This kind of thing is worth tracking publicly so that if you see me ask for 60bil more in a few months time you'll have a damn good reason for shouting about the MASSIVE increase in my risk profile.
@VV - I could never be an auditor I'm afraid simply because I'm technically inept and software tends to explode on contact with my computer.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:36:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/03/2011 14:45:17
Single bond, from Nov 2009 to Mar 2010, 69 bil in, ~83.5 bil out. Pretty weak, I know, but it could have been a lot more "in", I just didn't feel I could handle much more so I stopped collection early.
There was no audit, no collateral, none of the usual checks and bounds other than sheer reputation weight.
There was however an almost full disclosure of plans before collection began (as much as possible without screwing up profitability potential), and a complete disclosure of all relevant activities after the conclusion of the bond, with full breakdown of how ISK was obtained, when and from where.
P.S. HILARITY ENSUES - Linkage - cosmoray supporting the bond but claiming he can't invest because he dumped all funds in patch day speculation himself... but according to recent reveals, he never did any such thing. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.04 14:52:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Raid''En on 04/03/2011 14:51:59
Originally by: Akita T
Single bond, from Nov 2009 to Mar 2010, 69 bil in, ~83.5 bil out.
wow the interests were really high o_O
Originally by: Cista2 since most people on MD know I had more than 100 bn borrowed last year, they can be quite certain I won't scam for amounts like 10 bn or with something minuscule like the Universal Railways. Same goes for RAW.
well that's how things works for services on the sell orders forum, pretty simple, but seems to be still one of the best protections ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:00:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/03/2011 15:02:29
Originally by: Raid'En
Originally by: Akita T Single bond, from Nov 2009 to Mar 2010, 69 bil in, ~83.5 bil out.
wow the interests were really high o_O
I wouldn't exactly call an average of 5% monthly interest "high", and the average paid out was ~21% total over little above 4 months average (some early withdrawals and all that jazz)... it was certainly not considered a high interest value back then, that's sure. Besides, I was left with almost 170 bil ISK NAV at the conclusion of the bond, which ended up becoming around 330 bil ISK NAV right now (after 1 year of expenses like PLEX et all), so I'd say I got the far better end of the deal _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:05:00 -
[27]
This thread delivers. I would like to say thankyou to the OP as you just won me $50 RL money.
I have done a few of these threads. When EBANK failed, and when Bad Bobby scammed. I rolled out the PR machine to extol the virtues of the few real trustworthy businesses left in the game.
If there is one thing that is a given, it is that when there is a high profile scam/failure, there is always the next level guys telling you how great they are.
MD is so beautiful and predictable. I am going to enjoy my free meal tonight.
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Caldariftw123
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:17:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 04/03/2011 15:17:59
Originally by: cosmoray This thread delivers. I would like to say thankyou to the OP as you just won me $50 RL money.
I have done a few of these threads. When EBANK failed, and when Bad Bobby scammed. I rolled out the PR machine to extol the virtues of the few real trustworthy businesses left in the game.
If there is one thing that is a given, it is that when there is a high profile scam/failure, there is always the next level guys telling you how great they are.
MD is so beautiful and predictable. I am going to enjoy my free meal tonight.
.. and now the 'gloating' and 'lording it over MD' begins, you are a carbon copy of the dozen scammers that came before you cosmoray, except it looks more like you failed/burned out rather than was a 'proper' scammer nor do your figures for how much you took seem to add up very well or look very impressive for all those years of 'work' .. a little bit sad :)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:21:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/03/2011 15:24:10
Originally by: cosmoray I have done a few of these threads.
And yet, when push came to shove, all you "stole" was 100 bil ISK which you didn't really steal, but actually earned yourself via IER, and you literally wasted them on crap in a span of under a month so you had no way of paying outstanding debts back even if you wanted to. Until then, there was no scam, and after that point, you had no choice left. I'm even reluctant to let anybody call you a scammer. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.03.04 15:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: cosmoray If there is one thing that is a given, it is that when there is a high profile scam/failure, there is always the next level guys telling you how great they are.
You mistake. I've never come close to sinking to your level
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