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Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.03.05 21:54:00 - [91] Originally by: Kuronaga Semantics? Yes, that is what this is about currently. Educating ignorant, full grown adults who have apparently zero gaming experience outside of Eve on what words actually mean. No, what this is about currently is educating ignorant people who apparently have zero gaming experience inside EVE on what words actually mean. An "exploit" is anything deemed by CCP to be an "exploit". Intentionally dumping dozens of objects in space to decloak people has been considered exploiting the game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage for years. If you wish to have incontrovertible proof, just load up a few thousand shuttles in an Orca and unload them out the front of Jita 4-4. Alternately, you could petition a GM for clarification of the rules, since we can't post GM correspondence on the forums you'll have to get the GM to talk to you personally. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Willl Adama Judicio Sine Misericordia	Posted - 2011.03.05 23:27:00 - [92] Hahah, this Kuronaga dude is one of the most persistant douche bags I have ever seen, it's hilarious. Nasty CCP abusing the term 'exploit' so that they can totally ruin your day in their own damn game, eh? GOD DAMN FASCISTS! It's like trying to convince the soccer referee that a kick in the nuts is a legal tackle.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.03.06 00:29:00 - [93] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk The issue is : If you jump into a 30 man gate camp who have launched their drones out ready for combat. Each has 5 drones out. Is the enemy gang exploiting? Simple question. Simple answer. No Not so simple a question, actually. Those 30 men will not have their drones distributed in a sphere around the gate ù they will follow the ships around. Thus the ships need to be distributed in a sphere around the gate to get the same effect, rather than at optimal positions (in which case they don't need to have their drones out at all to get the desired effect, which in turn means the addition of the drones is a needless addition that only really serves to slow down grid loads). So what we have here is rather a situation where those 30 men will have deployed 600 drones, rather than just 150, and/or effectively being on more places than one at once, at which point we're inching back into exploit territory again. I would disagree IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT TO UNCLOAK A SHIP The only issue is whether the deployment of 30 drones causes an unreasonable starin on the system, wherever they are place. 30 drones are 30 drones, whether dropped strategicaly or launched from 8 battleships. I would suspect an abandoned drone in fact causes LESS lag then one launched from a bay as it is not flying around triggering calculations but thats just a logical suspicion. If we can agree that jumping into a huge omg 8 man gate camp who have deployed drones is not an exploit, then neither is dropping 30 abandonded drones. A small pirate gang dropping 30 drones on a gate in a dead system is so inconsequential compared to jumping into a faction warfare blob, or into a 1000 man 0.0 blob, neither of which are exploits. Its not an exploit to uncloak a ship Its not an exploit to launch 30 drones Therefore launching 30 drones to uncloak a ship is NOT an exploit. Logicaly anyway.. ccp have made contradictory noises in the past, though the most recent ones being that it is ok in moderation. SKUNK (o)
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.06 00:43:00 - [94] Originally by: Le Skunk IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT TO UNCLOAK A SHIP That's not the issue. The issue is whether dropping a bunch of junk is an exploit, and yes: it can be. Quote: Its not an exploit to launch 30 drones How about launching 150 drones from the same six ships? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.03.06 00:52:00 - [95] Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/03/2011 00:52:24 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT TO UNCLOAK A SHIP That's not the issue. The issue is whether dropping a bunch of junk is an exploit, and yes: it can be. Quote: Its not an exploit to launch 30 drones How about launching 150 drones from the same six ships? Good because some people seem to think its the uncloaking of the ship by the junk that is the exploit. Its not. The issue is whether the strain on the system is unreasonable (eg dropping 1k shuttles in jita then smartiing them) amd whether the drones were dropped with the intention of lagging other people(eg dropping 1k shuttles in jita then smartiing them). 150 drones is equivalent to jumping into a 30 man gang. 1) Is it an exploit to jump into a 30 man gang? Nope.. so no unreasonable strain is caused on the system 2) Were the drones dropped with the intention lagging other people out? No, they were dropped in a precise grid formation in order to uncloak haulers (which we have agreed is not an exploit) If they wanted to simply lag out the pilot jumping in, why spend an hour putting them in precise postions, why not dump them in a random spot. So as you can see, my argument is clear and logical. Both to the letter or the law, and the spirit of the law, nothing has been broken. But again, this does not mean CCP would agree with it, which is all that is important in the end. SKUNK (o)
Ozmodan Minmatar Massively Mob Massively Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.06 00:53:00 - [96] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk The issue is : If you jump into a 30 man gate camp who have launched their drones out ready for combat. Each has 5 drones out. Is the enemy gang exploiting? Simple question. Simple answer. No Not so simple a question, actually. Those 30 men will not have their drones distributed in a sphere around the gate ù they will follow the ships around. Thus the ships need to be distributed in a sphere around the gate to get the same effect, rather than at optimal positions (in which case they don't need to have their drones out at all to get the desired effect, which in turn means the addition of the drones is a needless addition that only really serves to slow down grid loads). So what we have here is rather a situation where those 30 men will have deployed 600 drones, rather than just 150, and/or effectively being on more places than one at once, at which point we're inching back into exploit territory again. I would disagree IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT TO UNCLOAK A SHIP The only issue is whether the deployment of 30 drones causes an unreasonable starin on the system, wherever they are place. 30 drones are 30 drones, whether dropped strategicaly or launched from 8 battleships. I would suspect an abandoned drone in fact causes LESS lag then one launched from a bay as it is not flying around triggering calculations but thats just a logical suspicion. If we can agree that jumping into a huge omg 8 man gate camp who have deployed drones is not an exploit, then neither is dropping 30 abandonded drones. A small pirate gang dropping 30 drones on a gate in a dead system is so inconsequential compared to jumping into a faction warfare blob, or into a 1000 man 0.0 blob, neither of which are exploits. Its not an exploit to uncloak a ship Its not an exploit to launch 30 drones Therefore launching 30 drones to uncloak a ship is NOT an exploit. Logicaly anyway.. ccp have made contradictory noises in the past, though the most recent ones being that it is ok in moderation. SKUNK Huh? It is no different that dumping a bunch of containers around a gate, which CCP has said many times IS an exploit. If you do it in moderation it is probably ok, but why bother to push the limit, it is just common sense to avoid doing so. The GM's are busy enough without players cluttering up their ticket queues with issues they should know better to not do. Learners permit still current
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.06 01:02:00 - [97] Originally by: Le Skunk 150 drones is equivalent to jumping into a 30 man gang. Yes, but it isn't a 30-man gang ù that's the whole point. But sure, how about launching 750 drones from that 30-man gang? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.03.06 01:03:00 - [98] Originally by: Ozmodan Huh? It is no different that dumping a bunch of containers around a gate, which CCP has said many times IS an exploit. If you do it in moderation it is probably ok, but why bother to push the limit, it is just common sense to avoid doing so. The GM's are busy enough without players cluttering up their ticket queues with issues they should know better to not do. 1) CCP have said contradictory things in the past regarding the issue. 2) It is not written down anywhere in the rules that doing it is illegal. 3) Its is not clear how 40 drones when launched from 8 BS ship is somehow ok, but 40 drones abandoned by the same 8 BS is suddenly an exploit when it is agreed that it is not the uncloaking part that is an issue, only the "unreasonable strain on the system" which is the same either way. SKUNK (o)
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Hell's Hide-Out	Posted - 2011.03.06 01:08:00 - [99] Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/03/2011 01:13:03 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/03/2011 01:09:27 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk 150 drones is equivalent to jumping into a 30 man gang. Yes, but it isn't a 30-man gang ù that's the whole point. But sure, how about launching 750 drones from that 30-man gang? Case1: 30 man gang = 150 drones moving about causing all manner of calculations + 30 bs pilots modules and calculations Case 2: 6 man pirate gang = 150 stationary drones and 6 bs modules and calculations. Case 3: 20 man gang at a pos with 40 pos guns and modules firing drones out. Strain on system, which is the only yardstick by which CCP would clasify this as an exploit is substantialy less in case 2. We know case 1 and 3 are not exploits, ergo neither is case 2. SKUNK (o)
WalkTalk	Posted - 2011.03.06 02:36:00 - [100] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/03/2011 01:13:03 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/03/2011 01:09:27 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk 150 drones is equivalent to jumping into a 30 man gang. Yes, but it isn't a 30-man gang ù that's the whole point. But sure, how about launching 750 drones from that 30-man gang? Case1: 30 man gang = 150 drones moving about causing all manner of calculations + 30 bs pilots modules and calculations Case 2: 6 man pirate gang = 150 stationary drones and 6 bs modules and calculations. Case 3: 20 man gang at a pos with 40 pos guns and modules firing drones out. Strain on system, which is the only yardstick by which CCP would clasify this as an exploit is substantialy less in case 2. We know case 1 and 3 are not exploits, ergo neither is case 2. SKUNK Le Skunk, you are focusing on the word "strain" but ignoring the "unreasonable" part. There's nothing unreasonable about a player launching 5 drones. If that individual player happens to be in a fleet with 20 other battleships and they all launch 5 drones, there's nothing unreasonable about that either. However, 3 guys launching and abandoning 25 drones each is, arguably, unreasonable. The difference between the two examples is not about "strain", it is about whether it is "unreasonable".
Selinate Amarr Red Water Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.06 05:55:00 - [101] was flying in a cov ops through null sec not long ago. Jumped into system, saw nothing besides a warp bubble wayyyy off the gate. Figure it was just left there to rot. The second I come out of cloak and cloak back up, warp bubble drops right on gate. Before I know it, a sabre has knocked me out of cloak, locked me, and scrambled me so I couldn't mwd away. The point is, cloakers aren't impossible to catch, and there are easier ways to do it then dropping **** all around a gate...
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 06:08:00 - [102] CRAP the gate with BADGERssss... they are dirt cheap and big and decloak good... yeah 100 000 isk a piece, long 400 m badger
Opertone Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.	Posted - 2011.03.06 06:12:00 - [103] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Le Skunk IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT TO UNCLOAK A SHIP That's not the issue. The issue is whether dropping a bunch of junk is an exploit, and yes: it can be. Quote: Its not an exploit to launch 30 drones How about launching 150 drones from the same six ships? yeah right, good point! if it was not an exploit, as a legit tactic it would cause immense server load, every gate 150 drones plus, containers, all that collision detection. Also every station would be full of trash that prevents undocking and aligning.
Ambassador Helios	Posted - 2011.03.06 06:29:00 - [104] I dont understand why people gate camp... it seems boring, frustrating, difficult, you are just ruining other peoples day who are just trying to get from point A to B, and you dont profit. Seems strange to me. Least favorite aspect of eve. Makes the universe feel like Im a kid trying to climb through a jungle gym and a fat ******ed kid is in the middle punching people.
Herrring Amarr Caldari Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2011.03.06 06:46:00 - [105] most gate camps = to scared/uncomfortable to get out of familiar areas but want easy kill mails to boost their kb stats as someone said in one of the posts somewhere gate camping = lv4 missioning for pvp. Sometimes, it is necessary to gate camp for hours, but usually not.
Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2011.03.06 07:08:00 - [106] Originally by: Rmage Gemmell Most of them are just ****ed off at jump bridges, 5-6hs ops, super-serious-0.0-game and insane lag. None of which exist in a decently large chunk of 0.0 (NPC). If you go to low sec and complain that you can't catch bubble warpers you're still an idiot for ignoring the "move about 3 systems over" solution. --- If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.03.06 07:37:00 - [107] There is one extra reason why it should be considered an exploit. They might uncloak a ship of someone that hasn't loaded the system yet. That would give an unfair advantage to campers as they have already loaded everything and can act as soon as the ship appears, but the one jumping in has no control of his ship while the system is loading up. If ships loaded up on grid without cloak then it would be impossible to avoid any gatecamp.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2011.03.06 08:03:00 - [108] Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 06/03/2011 08:03:42 Originally by: Kuronaga If CCP says the world is flat, that doesn't make it so. if CCP says that in their game, world is a weird net of empty infinite spaces with one star and a few planets near the center of coordinates, filled with some kind of liquid or gas that makes you slow down when not applying thrust and with no gravity or planetary bodies movement whatsoever, then that makes it so because its their game !!
Eyup Mi'duck	Posted - 2011.03.06 09:13:00 - [109] Originally by: Ambassador Helios I dont understand why people gate camp... it seems boring, frustrating, difficult, you are just ruining other peoples day who are just trying to get from point A to B, and you dont profit. Seems strange to me. Least favorite aspect of eve. Makes the universe feel like Im a kid trying to climb through a jungle gym and a fat ******ed kid is in the middle punching people. Yes, gate camp = mugging, but in Eve it's legal. People do it because they can. You need to get streetwise to survive outside of hi-sec, heed the warnings CCP give you when you leave carebearland.
BinaryData Gallente Impact Theory The Jagged Alliance	Posted - 2011.03.06 09:37:00 - [110] Edited by: BinaryData on 06/03/2011 09:40:06 Originally by: Neamus So its also an exploit when 0.0 gankers bubble up a point after the gate and then leave a jet can to decloak warp-ins as well? This actually happened to me tonight. I was warping through nullsec, encountered a bubble and there was 6 cans in the path of the gate. CCP's response to this is, if its ANCHORABLE it is a LEGIT. If it's a JETCAN/DRONE/ETC.. it's an exploit and can be a 3 day ban etc. Popping multiple cans is an exploit because it can lag players. I've seen gate camps with 100+ cans in an orb, making it IMPOSSIBLE to get out. I hope the prick who killed me gets a 3 day ban, and I get my stuff back. Lost a lot of money because of this exploit. I honestly, think this should be a 3 - 7 day ban and the said player(s) using the exploit, have the loss of said person taken from their wallets.
Ruthless Erection	Posted - 2011.03.06 10:04:00 - [111] Oh yeah, if it's legal. I'mma pop so many god damn cans, you'll lag the crap out and be like "So what? it happened to me, get the Fck over it you stupid carebear..."
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.03.06 10:09:00 - [112] Originally by: BinaryData This actually happened to me tonight. I was warping through nullsec, encountered a bubble and there was 6 cans in the path of the gate. CCP's response to this is, if its ANCHORABLE it is a LEGIT. If it's a JETCAN/DRONE/ETC.. it's an exploit and can be a 3 day ban etc. Popping multiple cans is an exploit because it can lag players. I've seen gate camps with 100+ cans in an orb, making it IMPOSSIBLE to get out. I hope the prick who killed me gets a 3 day ban, and I get my stuff back. Lost a lot of money because of this exploit. I honestly, think this should be a 3 - 7 day ban and the said player(s) using the exploit, have the loss of said person taken from their wallets. Exploit aside, this post is hilarious. Cry more, please. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.03.06 11:01:00 - [113] Can we not get rid of stargates all together? Wanna see you spawn-point-camp that.. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.03.06 11:13:00 - [114] Originally by: Tres Farmer Can we not get rid of stargates all together? I agree, we should not get rid of stargates. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.03.06 11:22:00 - [115] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Tres Farmer Can we not get rid of stargates all together? I agree, we should not get rid of stargates. You can't agree and then invert the stuff I said. In case you're right with your interpretation (I've got English as 2nd language from my 10 year of life on) I appologise. The meaning of my above post was a question, like: 'Can't we remove stargates?' Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Graic	Posted - 2011.03.06 11:28:00 - [116] Hilarious. Some alleged server load will see you hanging by the thumbs but things totally dodgy are fine by the GMs. I raised a petition regarding repeated images of bestiality being linked in a quite well known and popular trading channel. The GMs response? Perfectly OK as it was a "private channel". The lesson here? Don't even bother searching for logic from CCP in some matters.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.03.06 11:28:00 - [117] Originally by: Tres Farmer You can't agree and then invert the stuff I said. In case you're right with your interpretation (I've got English as 2nd language from my 10 year of life on) I appologise. The meaning of my above post was a question, like: 'Can't we remove stargates?' Then you would have said, 'Can not we remove stargates'. But that's not what you said. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.03.06 13:02:00 - [118] Edited by: Halcyon Ingenium on 06/03/2011 13:03:02 Originally by: Graic Hilarious. Some alleged server load will see you hanging by the thumbs but things totally dodgy are fine by the GMs. I raised a petition regarding repeated images of bestiality being linked in a quite well known and popular trading channel. The GMs response? Perfectly OK as it was a "private channel". The lesson here? Don't even bother searching for logic from CCP in some matters. What's unreasonable about it, it is a private channel, which means if you don't like what's going on get the **** out. And what kind of idiot just clicks on random links from strangers these days anyways? I predict your account will be taken from you by the nefarious and unprincipled soon. By the way, real men biomass when they emoragequit.
Chingyz Caldari The Ankou Raiden.	Posted - 2011.03.06 16:11:00 - [119] Originally by: Kuronaga Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Kuronaga If CCP says the world is flat, that doesn't make it so. If CCP says the world they created is flat, it makes it so. Quote: If CCP says they will ban you if you disagree that the world is flat, it still doesn't make it so. If CCP puts it in the EULA that they can ban you for it, then they can. Quote: CCP can ban people for this, yes. They can call it an exploit. It still isn't one Seeing as how they are the ones who define what is and what isn't an exploit in their world, yes it is. No, they don't. CCP creates, runs, and updates a game. They do not write the english language. Tool detected. Define exploit
Mastertz	Posted - 2011.03.06 16:35:00 - [120] TL;DR Pirate tears are the sweetest of tears.

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