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Fredfredbug4
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.16 00:11:00 -
[1]
Forgive me if the answer is obvious, I am still pretty new to the game and haven't gotten much PVP in.
My question as seen in the thread title is simple. Why is close range favorable to long range? Wouldn't sitting back, out of the range of your enemy be better? Wouldn't using MWDs to keep your distance as well as switching ammo when necessary nullify the problem of enemies trying to get in close?
I'm still new so I may not be seeing something that is obvious to older players. Is it because closer range fits tend to deal out more DPS? After all the faster you kill the opponent the better I assume.
Thank you in advance.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.03.16 00:18:00 -
[2]
What you're talking about is typically referred to as kiting, and it is a style of close or medium range combat (depending on how far you normally engage from). Frankly, that style of combat is strongly preferred over what would be a traditional (Gallente) view of close range combat.
Ultimately, the problem is that there is a very minor EFT damage advantage for close range combat, but the reality is that you tend to do less damage because you can't get in range. On top of that, you utterly commit your ship to the fight by going into scram + web range.
In an age where blob and counterblob is the norm, the ability to escape is key ... this is why we see so much nano/kiting and range tanking. Which is exactly what you described.
So.... what gave you the idea that close range combat is preferred?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Fredfredbug4
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.16 00:36:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Liang Nuren What you're talking about is typically referred to as kiting, and it is a style of close or medium range combat (depending on how far you normally engage from). Frankly, that style of combat is strongly preferred over what would be a traditional (Gallente) view of close range combat.
Ultimately, the problem is that there is a very minor EFT damage advantage for close range combat, but the reality is that you tend to do less damage because you can't get in range. On top of that, you utterly commit your ship to the fight by going into scram + web range.
In an age where blob and counterblob is the norm, the ability to escape is key ... this is why we see so much nano/kiting and range tanking. Which is exactly what you described.
So.... what gave you the idea that close range combat is preferred?
-Liang
I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic. Most of them have short range turrets which in my definition is 0 to 10km which is based on how I tend to fight.
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tagen young
Caldari The Night Witch
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Posted - 2011.03.16 01:23:00 -
[4]
As the previous poster said im not sure you are talking about long range combat.
shooting at very long range e.g 100km creates the problem of you not being able to stop the target warping away yourself.
I've met a good number of pilots who are a nightmare fighting with their kitting ability. It is however not the easiest thing to do well and those really skilled at the art have my total respect.
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.03.16 02:39:00 -
[5]
Tackling ranges, itÆs all about that, really. Hitting the 25 to 30 km slice is all youÆll (usually) ever need.
ofc there is a lot of exceptions... **** listing them all
The following statement is not my signature. The preceding statement is my signature. |
Impact1983
Merchants Exports Rising Phoenix Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.03.16 03:04:00 -
[6]
So for short range fights, you will need to tackle them on a gate so you need them to jump into you, or you need to get a warp in on their position. VERY GOOD, VERY SKILLED covert ops pilots will get you your fleet warp in on a moving target and even them will decloak and die in a fight so short range fights with big groups is hard do to everyone moving around.
Midrange fights would be 30>100 so that you can control warp ins on your fleet position. Once again the hero covert ops pilot would help with screwing over a FC who is trying to kite.
Long range 160+km; sniping battles have grown out of favor due to the hp boost that all ships received what 2 years ago??? But that use to be a way to handle blobs but now even a group of 50 sniping bs can't put out the dps to alpha a bs so its not worth the cost(hacs are hard to track due to the small sig but they have been countered with midrange BS now).
If you are talking smaller fights (10 vs 10) then short range within 24km is the norm. But the fleet fights with over 100 have specific roles that have to be filled; covert ops, command booster, logi, anchor, tackle(cheap t1 frigs with noobs flying are great for this role; experience and no one cares if they lose their pod) and the voice comms will include FC, target caller, alts in near by systems, and spies listening in on enemy comms.
Hope this starts to answer your question.
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Luvvin McHunt
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Posted - 2011.03.16 03:47:00 -
[7]
Simple answer is - you wanna warp scram your target.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.03.16 03:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Fredfredbug4
I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic. Most of them have short range turrets which in my definition is 0 to 10km which is based on how I tend to fight.
What type of ships are you looking at? Typically the only ships that are that short of range are frigs or med blaster boats.
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2011.03.16 07:32:00 -
[9]
If your flying any blaster fit ships, You have to fly close or you may as well just turn off your guns. Close range is mandatory for them. Those ships will generally be fit with webs, scramms, and MWD's. Your avatar shows Gallente so I assume your fitting Gal ships from battleclinic. Every other race has better range *options*
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Dek'athor
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Posted - 2011.03.16 07:44:00 -
[10]
When a close range fit gets in close to a long range fit, hilarity ensues!
You need to be creative in order to get there tho :/
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.03.16 20:43:00 -
[11]
Most Pvp fits you see are solo fits "as if thats likely", for a solo Pvp fit for most ships you have to be at least within 24 km and if you want to scram them as most ppl seem to want to do, its easier to fit and will shut down an opponents MWD if they are using one you typically need to be with 9 kms. Thats most likely why all the "Pvp" fits you are seeing are short range fits.
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Whiny McEmokid
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Posted - 2011.03.17 03:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Fredfredbug4
I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic.
this is your first mistake. People who post fits on BC are awful.
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Kovorix
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Posted - 2011.03.17 04:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Whiny McEmokid
Originally by: Fredfredbug4
I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic.
this is your first mistake. People who post fits on BC are awful.
Quoting for complete truth. BC fits are absolutely terrible. Fits in this subforum are usually better. For the best fit inspiration, though, find some of your favorite skilled PvPers and check out their lossmails. |
Lubomir Penev
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.03.19 00:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Whiny McEmokid
Originally by: Fredfredbug4
I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic.
this is your first mistake. People who post fits on BC are awful.
I'll vote up any fit that drops expensive mods! There are no macrominers in EVE |
Unidentified Character
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Posted - 2011.03.19 04:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Luvvin McHunt Simple answer is - you wanna warp scram your target.
This.
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Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.03.22 06:13:00 -
[16]
In solo PVP, the primary reason for any ship to get "close" is to be able to tackle your opponent: range dictated by your stasis webifier and/or warp disruptor or warp scrambler.
Another reason to get close is the range dictated by your weapons systems; everything else being equal, you'll do more damage within your optimal than within your optimal+falloff. This is Gallente battle doctrine. However, the Minmatar have made an excellent point with their faster ships, able to fight between the Gallente optimal+falloff and their own optimal+falloff (or warp disruptor range); they apply lower DPS, but at a range that means their opponent's DPS is lower still.
A third reason to get close is when doing so maximizes your angular velocity relative to your opponent to the extent his turrets can't track you. Many a frigate has nibbled a battlecruiser or even a battleship to death while the big lunk could never quite bring its massive guns to bear. Just watch out for missiles, drones, smartbombs, neuts, etc.
In gangs, long-range setups still work, especially if your gang puts out enough volley damage to completely destroy a ship. This is particularly useful against gangs with logistical support, as one volley kills a ship, leaving no time for repairs.
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Dynast
Osirians Of Eve Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.22 08:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Fredfredbug4 I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic. Most of them have short range turrets which in my definition is 0 to 10km which is based on how I tend to fight.
As a rule, it is safe to assume that anything associated with battleclinic is without value until proven otherwise.
As others have said, weapons which are viable outside of short range are vastly preferable.. close to mandatory, really. Pulse lasers with scorch are good, as are AC/Arties and missiles. Hybrids are pretty terrible in the game as it stands. Tackling with just a point, and good speed/agility, gives you a chance of bugging out if a favorable fight turns unfavorable (a common occurence).
That said, web+scram has it's place. I like it on a lot of fits, because it makes it a lot easier to pin ships down and make a kill stick. But I'm willing to trade my hull for kills; people who fly faction ships (like dramioverpowereds and cyna*****es) are less willing to.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.22 10:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/03/2011 10:15:53 Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/03/2011 10:14:56
Originally by: Kovorix
Originally by: Whiny McEmokid
Originally by: Fredfredbug4
I got the idea from looking at a lot of the PVP fits on battle clinic.
this is your first mistake. People who post fits on BC are awful.
Quoting for complete truth. BC fits are absolutely terrible. Fits in this subforum are usually better. For the best fit inspiration, though, find some of your favorite skilled PvPers and check out their lossmails.
You know, what you can do with a press on the button on battleclinic Edit: Well not by your favourite skilled pvp'er, but honestly are they normal people who need fittings who first want to find out which player is best with that ship, and then find out he uses it for completely different situations? But battleclinic can just show you how the top100 ranked on battleclinic (which indeed doesnt say mean they are top 100 pvp'ers, but it means they are most likely not completely horrible) fitted that ship recently.
Just like any place else you shouldnt take everything from battleclinic as true, but it certainly is the easiest place to find fittings. And to give the answer on the question again: you need to tackle your opponent, so that means you need to be within 24km.
At least for cruisers and up all short range weapons can reach out to 24km, with the only exception being blasters. In principle kiting (so you can escape) is more popular, but for gallente turret ships it then comes down to either using rails and just being fail, or using blasters and dieing as a man. So in the end for solo/small gang pvp always short range turrets are used.
Edit2: And people should notice that OP uses as definition of short range combat fitting short range weapons, so kiting would fall into short range combat. Since those definitions are kinda arbitrary his is right too.
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Ventro69
Caldari Manson Family Corcoran State
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:15:00 -
[19]
Scram and web, all you needed to know. Close thread, move along.
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