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Michael McDonald
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Posted - 2011.03.16 23:31:00 -
[1]
So, I am not seeing a huge difference in pevformance between the two ships for running sanctums. I have HAC 5 and the drone skills to match. For the Tengu I have all sub systems to 5 and Strategic Cruisers to 4.
The Ishtar is a standard T2 Sentry load out as is the Tengu. Do you need to go beyond T2 to make the Tengu much better than the Ishtar?
So I know paper the Tengu can be set up to deal a decent amount of KEN damage vs. the Ishtars Garde IIs THERM damage mixed with Wardens. But when you factor in Damps, reloading switching back and forth between Precision and Fury, would you still think that the Tengu holds that much of an advantange over brother Ishtar?
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2011.03.16 23:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Misanthra on 17/03/2011 00:00:01 don't need precision imo. High enough skill, kinetic bonus on t1/faction does you fine. Precision will also affect speed tank. Put some rigor rigs in the ride...elites die quicker and vanilla frigates are 1 shot kills even with plain t1 ammo.
Wipe small crap first (while speed tanking large stuff), swtich to furies for big stuff. Swtich back to non-fury for new waves of frigates.
If doing it ninjya style remember furies will boost your sig radius alot. faction ammo liked by many for ninjya ops (also saves on ammo switching).
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.03.17 00:34:00 -
[3]
i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2011.03.17 00:53:00 -
[4]
load fofs in tengu ??? profit!
then again using fury missiles on gurista frigs should work pretty well, especially if they have their mwd on
I like the ishtar but good grief drones are boring.
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Kneebone
Heathens' Harbor
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Posted - 2011.03.17 01:02:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
Your Tengu-Fu is lacking about 100DPS then... It could just be that the purpose of your life is to server as a warning to others. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.17 01:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kneebone
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
Your Tengu-Fu is lacking about 100DPS then...
Mind you he stated he's not using anything but T2; you're not counting CN BCUs are you?
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Chug Robitussin
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Posted - 2011.03.17 02:07:00 -
[7]
Yeah.. for now, I am trying to compare best case scenario between the Ishtar and Tengu using T2. I understand that you get better performance out of CN BCUs but by then, you are not in the same ball park investment wise.
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Nadine Le'Slut
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Posted - 2011.03.17 03:29:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Nadine Le''**** on 17/03/2011 03:29:20 they're almost equal on the boredom level as well don't use t1/faction missiles on the tengu, instead you should have high precision skills, 2 rigor and 1 flare rig (pref. t2, not so expensive)
fury all the way, except for going unprobable |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.17 03:32:00 -
[9]
I like this Ishtar a lot..
[Ishtar, sanctums] Medium Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Capacitor Power Relay II
Cap Recharger II Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Gatling Pulse Laser I, Standard S Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Garde II x5 Wasp II x5 Warden II x5
Wasps with 4 omnis can hit the elite frigs, so no real need to bring anything small.
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Terianna Eri
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.03.17 03:38:00 -
[10]
I think if you restrict it to "All level V, no implants, T2 fits only" the Tengu still comes out ahead by a not huge, but significant amount. I do like the above fit with 4 Omnis though.
The real issue is that once you have maxed skills and a T2 fit, the Ishtar doesn't really get any better at killing things (i guess you can use navy omnis), whereas you can still upgrade the Tengu with faction damage mods and equally importantly, a pair of +5% implants, both of which will give the Tengu a significant advantage over the Ishtar. ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.17 03:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Terianna Eri I think if you restrict it to "All level V, no implants, T2 fits only" the Tengu still comes out ahead by a not huge, but significant amount. I do like the above fit with 4 Omnis though.
The real issue is that once you have maxed skills and a T2 fit, the Ishtar doesn't really get any better at killing things (i guess you can use navy omnis), whereas you can still upgrade the Tengu with faction damage mods and equally importantly, a pair of +5% implants, both of which will give the Tengu a significant advantage over the Ishtar.
Agreed, the Tengu has much more "pimp potential" than the Ishtar.
Though Vale's still hot enough that I'd rather lose a T2 Ishtar than a pimpfit Tengu in the event I get caught ratting by reds.
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Surgicalshot
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.03.17 04:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
You pretty much just said you prefer less dps then, dps is damage per second no matter how it arrives, instant or if it has to travel. if the dps is 650 with flight time calculated in, it's still higher than the ishtar's, if it is not calculated in, your dps number is wrong.
-surg
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.03.17 04:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kneebone
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
Your Tengu-Fu is lacking about 100DPS then...
Its called reloading.
Considering your average Tengu empties its launchers every 2 minutes and change, its a safe bet to include reload time into your DPS calculation. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Misanthra
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Posted - 2011.03.17 04:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Originally by: Kneebone
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
Your Tengu-Fu is lacking about 100DPS then...
Its called reloading.
Considering your average Tengu empties its launchers every 2 minutes and change, its a safe bet to include reload time into your DPS calculation.
then you have to factor in drone travel for its dps.
enemies 30 km's apart...drones moving 30 km's to next target. Want to get that technical, drones dps takes a nice dive to reload. makes the drone dps real variable.
Also to be technical unless you like losing them...factor in drone recall in cases of aggro shift. You got 2 out of 5 mediums the new wave liked...you are down 2 mediums on the recall. That would be travel time back to ship, then back whatever the target is at the time. Again a real variable drone dps number.
don't hate drone boats btw...jsut saying. Either way works well. I'd prefer gila for drone boat though tbh. Hybrids don't thrill me (I can and have flown caldari hybrid boats) and a gila fit I liked to run when I had one eats up frigates with an aml fit to keep bigger drones out to kill the big stuff. To each there own, gets you isk it all good I say.
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Michael McDonald
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Posted - 2011.03.17 05:15:00 -
[15]
I would like to keep the fittings mostly T2. I know that you can Pimp the Tengu to make it do great DPS, but at some point the cost / benifit of going Pimpin, decreases the practicality of doing Sanctums in a ship made of isk. To each their own, but I am looking to either make the best of the Tengu. At some point I might bring my alt in to run either Tengu + Ishtar, or Ishtar + Ishtar.
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Ms TUBGIRL
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Posted - 2011.03.17 05:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Misanthra
Originally by: Patient 2428190
Originally by: Kneebone
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
Your Tengu-Fu is lacking about 100DPS then...
Its called reloading.
Considering your average Tengu empties its launchers every 2 minutes and change, its a safe bet to include reload time into your DPS calculation.
then you have to factor in drone travel for its dps.
enemies 30 km's apart...drones moving 30 km's to next target. Want to get that technical, drones dps takes a nice dive to reload. makes the drone dps real variable.
Also to be technical unless you like losing them...factor in drone recall in cases of aggro shift. You got 2 out of 5 mediums the new wave liked...you are down 2 mediums on the recall. That would be travel time back to ship, then back whatever the target is at the time. Again a real variable drone dps number.
don't hate drone boats btw...jsut saying. Either way works well. I'd prefer gila for drone boat though tbh. Hybrids don't thrill me (I can and have flown caldari hybrid boats) and a gila fit I liked to run when I had one eats up frigates with an aml fit to keep bigger drones out to kill the big stuff. To each there own, gets you isk it all good I say.
I think most ppl use Sentry Drones for Sanctums.. No travel time needed. Only use lights for frigs if they make it to you. They shift DPS to new targest without much trouble, and can be recalled or RRed to keep fat and happy. If you get damped out... They just keep on shooting at whatever is aggroing them. Its not "super" DPS, but it IS consistent.
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Ellmar
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Posted - 2011.03.17 05:56:00 -
[17]
Let's face it, none of them are fantastic to run sanctums with due to their limitation in dps. Their main strength which is tanking kin/therm is overkill in sanctums.
On the other hand both easily fit core probe launchers to be self suficient.
I'd go with the tengu for the following reasons:
-higher dps even with t2 fit -have the ability to upgrade dps with faction mods at a later date if you want (i'd recommend a couple of navy bcu's even if the rest of your fit is t2) while the ishtar hits his roof straight away. -don't have to worry about drone agro and can apply damage the second new waves spawn -kin >kin/therm
I'd go with the ishtar in the following situations:
-I really wanted an salvager, cloak, neut (along with the probe launcher they both fit). -I wanted an cheap plex'er I could take to hostile territory.
On a side note swapping between precision and fury is useful exactly when? frigs die in 1 volley cruisers in 2, don't think swapping helps with that, use fury for all of it, equip ad target painter if you want.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.17 06:57:00 -
[18]
ishtar with big fat drones is extremely easy to probe. OTH drones don't use ammo...
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2011.03.17 07:40:00 -
[19]
Gank Tengu with heavy assault launchers + range rigs Just watch how fast usurpers melt when you hit them with 800+ DPS
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.17 09:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Songbird ishtar with big fat drones is extremely easy to probe. OTH drones don't use ammo...
You don't need probes to find a anomaly.
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.03.17 14:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Surgicalshot
Originally by: Lain Umi i prefer the ishtar's 538 instant thermal DPS over the tengu's 650 kinetic dps that requires travel time.
You pretty much just said you prefer less dps then, dps is damage per second no matter how it arrives, instant or if it has to travel. if the dps is 650 with flight time calculated in, it's still higher than the ishtar's, if it is not calculated in, your dps number is wrong.
-surg
actually most of your dps loss comes from 1) reloading and 2) finishing targets off. many times the target will require less than one salvo to die, yet you'll have to waste an entire salvo + cooldown to finish it off
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Lain Umi
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Posted - 2011.03.17 14:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Misanthra
then you have to factor in drone travel for its dps.
if you know what youre doing in pve, you shouldnt be using anything other than sentries. all people who swear by their ishtars use t2 sentries. gardes can 1-volley elite frigs from 40-50km.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.17 14:36:00 -
[23]
Neither the Ishtar or the Tengu. Use the Nighthawk... Makes the same damage of a Tengu with 1/3 of the price
Strength and Honour |
Michael McDonald
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Posted - 2011.03.17 15:56:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DeadDuck Neither the Ishtar or the Tengu. Use the Nighthawk... Makes the same damage of a Tengu with 1/3 of the price
lol.. I was thinking about that too. tbh, I have not used the Nighthwak in a long time. Isn't there a good active tank fit that allows you to use missile rigs floating around here somewhere? The NH was one of the first T2 hulls I flew, and hadn't messed around with it much since I stopped running missions and realized it didn't have a good slot lay out for PVP.
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demonfurbie
Minmatar Drunken Wookies BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.03.17 18:24:00 -
[25]
[Nighthawk, anoms] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN Afterburner II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Hobgoblin II x5
what i use its fairly cheap fit only costly part is the boosters at about 50m per. it perma runs and the ab helps with the tank. you can change the missile rigs how ever you like
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DeadDuck
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.17 18:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Michael McDonald
Originally by: DeadDuck Neither the Ishtar or the Tengu. Use the Nighthawk... Makes the same damage of a Tengu with 1/3 of the price
lol.. I was thinking about that too. tbh, I have not used the Nighthwak in a long time. Isn't there a good active tank fit that allows you to use missile rigs floating around here somewhere? The NH was one of the first T2 hulls I flew, and hadn't messed around with it much since I stopped running missions and realized it didn't have a good slot lay out for PVP.
My Fit for sanctums not using Officer Mods or Faction crap only tec2:
6HML II + Core probe Launcher Heat Dissipation Field II + Ballistic Deflection Field II + Large Shield booster II + Shield Boost Amplifier II + cap recharge II 3 BCU II + 2 PDS II
Rigs: 2 medium CCC I Drones: 5 Hodgoblins II
627 DPS and a tank of 863 DPS vs Guristas
Strength and Honour |
Tuskar
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Posted - 2011.03.17 22:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 22:03:20
Originally by: Michael McDonald So, I am not seeing a huge difference in pevformance between the two ships for running sanctums.
so 400dps ishtar vs 900 dps tengu hmmmm lemme think. got it. you?
[Tengu, max dps - ham] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
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if you suck and make a fit that makes less than 500dps just fly t1 battleship and it does the same
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.17 22:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tuskar so 400dps ishtar
àmeans you're fitting the Ishtar incorrectly. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Michael McDonald
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Posted - 2011.03.17 23:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tuskar Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 22:03:20
Originally by: Michael McDonald So, I am not seeing a huge difference in pevformance between the two ships for running sanctums.
so 400dps ishtar vs 900 dps tengu hmmmm lemme think. got it. you?
[Tengu, max dps - ham] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
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if you suck and make a fit that makes less than 500dps just fly t1 battleship and it does the same
Right. I don't think anyone was talking about a 400 DPS Ishtar here. And I don't think you caught the gist of the OP. We were trying to stay away from Faction Fits.
I am aware that the Tengu has the ability to put out DPS when Pimped out. But aside from that, while HAMs give you a significant boost in DPS, It means you will be waiting to apply that DPS to new waves of targets that spawn out of your HAM range. So that is something to factor in as well.
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