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Sludan Sludin
Gallente Windmills Etc.
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Posted - 2011.03.18 05:35:00 -
[1]
tl;dr tracking is weird
The way I understand it, if you (A) are stationary and another ship (B) is orbiting you, you both have the same transversal and angular velocities. Because tracking in Eve is based solely on these numbers, tracking itself is symmetric.
This is quite strange, because in the real world (I know, I know...) ship (B) would be able to hold his guns straight and not move them at all, while ship (A) would have to continually be readjusting where his guns are pointed. This is what tracking is.
It's all well and good that the video game does not match reality, but it seems to lead to very strange consequences in the game. First, the parts that make sense: I understand that if you are facing an opponent that has worse tracking than you, then it makes sense to try tightly orbiting him to maximize transversal. I also understand that if you are facing an opponent that has better tracking than you, you should try and minimize transversal. These play to your advantage and play against his weakness.
However, if both you and your opponent have similar tracking, it seems like it wouldn't matter to just cut your engines and sit still while he orbits you. Sure, he would be orbiting you fast, but you would both be subject to the same high transversals. It wouldn't even be beneficial to web him, because you would both be affected the same by the lower transversals. Again, this is only true for opponents with similar tracking to you, and all of this assumes gun fights; missiles make sense. Obviously, webs can be used to prevent escape, but I'm talking about just the pew-pew part of the picture.
Isn't it strange that there's no advantage to slowing the opponent down, or to flying faster than an opponent with similar tracking? Orbiting a stationary target should be a huge advantage instead of a wash. It seems a shame to me that this isn't really rewarded by the mechanisms. Am I missing some key element of the way guns work?
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Kastsumi Kobayariel
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Posted - 2011.03.18 08:16:00 -
[2]
Now consider that as you get closer to your opponent it's always harder to track him, even he's a hundred times bigger than you and that no matter where your guns point they are facing him.
Welcome to Eve: Online.
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Alonzo Harris
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Posted - 2011.03.18 09:56:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Alonzo Harris on 18/03/2011 10:03:09 The game engine sees the two ships as points in space and not as actual ships with actual turrets, because of that your tracking to your target is exactly the same as his to you. The direction the hull or turrets are facing or must turn is thus completely disregarded and what you see on screen is nothing more than the engine making the ship turn based on the vector it's doing and some arbitrary settings to mimic "realistic&wanted" behaviour.
But you're wrong on webbing not being useful, partially anyway. For starters it prevents people from getting away (to make it to the gate and jump out or to get away from your point/weapon range). From a tracking pov it's quite simple; if you track better than your opponent then you orbit fast enough to mess with his tracking while you're still ok. If you track slower than your opponent then you try to keep at range or burn in a certain direction to make it difficult for him to get into his own orbit.
In short, a web: - keeps people from getting away - allows you to dictate range based on your weapon or makes it difficult for the target to try and dictate his range upon you - allows you to start orbiting would that favour you - hinders him orbiting you would that favour him
Webs are useful :)
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Cyrus Mierre
The Forsaken Legion
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Posted - 2011.03.18 16:17:00 -
[4]
If you're confident in your skills (lvl5), then you may as well orbit. Even if the subsequent angular velocity is too high for the tracking of either of you, you will still be getting 5-10% better hits.
Plus of course, as you eluded to, there's the factor that speed dictation controls who escapes and who doesn't, and also maintaining a high speed is useful to prevent ambushes mid-fight.
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Cyniac
Gallente Twilight Star Rangers
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Posted - 2011.03.18 16:36:00 -
[5]
Interesting observation - transversal is symmetrical of course.
I would not say though that having a faster, more manoeuvrable ship (all other things being equal) because guns (and even lasers) do not fire continuously but in bursts.
At any time in a fight you can manoeuvre to change the transversal - generally you do this to decrease transversal when you are going to fire and increase it again after shooting off a volley.
By having an advantage in speed (and to some extent manoeuvrability) your manoeuvre to change the transversal will have a bigger effect, thus giving you a bigger advantage when placing that shot.
Couple that overheating of guns (for best effect) and you can see that for very skilled pilots (not talking in game skills!) it does have an advantage.
Of course if you just point orbit and shoot it is perfectly symmetrical and has no effect at all.
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Alonzo Harris
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Posted - 2011.03.18 23:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cyniac I typed theoretical nonsense to make me look good and special, but it's still nonsense
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Cambarus
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.03.19 01:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Alonzo Harris
Originally by: Cyniac I typed theoretical nonsense to make me look good and special, but it's still nonsense
TBH I find it ADORABLE that he honestly thinks you can change your speed/transversal quickly enough to have any sort of effect on a shot by shot basis. |
Julia Venatrix
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Posted - 2011.03.19 10:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Alonzo Harris
Originally by: Cyniac I typed theoretical nonsense to make me look good and special, but it's still nonsense
TBH I find it ADORABLE that he honestly thinks you can change your speed/transversal quickly enough to have any sort of effect on a shot by shot basis.
Well, kinda.
When being speedtanked: Turn off autorepeat. Maneuver. Only shoot when transversal is low enough to actually hit.
Odds are you're still going to lose, no doubt, but it can't hurt to actually inflict damage before you do, as opposed to just trying to expend ammo to reduce the value that can be looted from your wreck. Besides, you might get lucky. --- Some days you are the pigeon, and some the statue. |
Alonzo Harris
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Posted - 2011.03.19 11:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Alonzo Harris on 19/03/2011 11:15:20 the "turn off repeat fire" would only be logical in a big ship with a slow rate of fire, which by definition isn't fast or agile enough to do anything useful manoeuvring. Only reason ever is if someone is orbiting you with a long range point and no web while you're MWD fitted, in THAT case what you're talking about can be useful (depending on difference in speed).
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.03.19 11:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Alonzo Harris
Originally by: Cyniac I typed theoretical nonsense to make me look good and special, but it's still nonsense
TBH I find it ADORABLE that he honestly thinks you can change your speed/transversal quickly enough to have any sort of effect on a shot by shot basis.
Dunno, works for my artillery Maelstrom...
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Alonzo Harris
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Posted - 2011.03.19 11:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Demolishar
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Alonzo Harris
Originally by: Cyniac I typed theoretical nonsense to make me look good and special, but it's still nonsense
TBH I find it ADORABLE that he honestly thinks you can change your speed/transversal quickly enough to have any sort of effect on a shot by shot basis.
Dunno, works for my artillery Maelstrom...
The guy is talking about orbiting someone and then slowing down "between shots". A ship that can and does orbit does not fit 1400 arties :)
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Sigras
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Posted - 2011.03.20 02:35:00 -
[12]
I dont believe this was done on purpose, but it does prevent missile ships from doing the bump and grind with a gun ship to throw the tracking off.
IE when one ship runs into another, it either whirls around which would really throw off the tracking, or it begins to see-saw back and forth which also would not be good for the guns tracking . . . missiles on the other hand would be fine with this.
in other words, this needs to stay the way it is until two ships colliding with each other is resolved differently
Additionally, Missiles make much less sense than guns.
- They should not have a max velocity they should only have acceleration
- Their concept of explosion velocity has nothing to do with physics . . . a larger warhead should have a faster explosion as it has more compression
/rant
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Seraph Castillon
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.20 11:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sludan Sludin Isn't it strange that there's no advantage to slowing the opponent down, or to flying faster than an opponent with similar tracking? Orbiting a stationary target should be a huge advantage instead of a wash. It seems a shame to me that this isn't really rewarded by the mechanisms. Am I missing some key element of the way guns work?
I've already made this exact post a couple of months ago and others probably did so before me as well. It makes no sense, but that's the way it is. Simplified calculations come at a price.
That aside there's almost always a range control issue or a tracking difference in a fight. So webbing is definitely not useless.
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Soldarius
Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.21 08:43:00 -
[14]
All the physics in Eve are borked to Hell. They use a liquid model to simulate the physics. What is this, the days of AEther Theory?
In any event, its very good to know about the symmetrical nature of tracking.
On that, if two ships shooting each other with turrets are orbiting about a common object at the same distance and velocity, how does it affect their tracking?
Originally by: CCP Shadow ...I cannot guarantee (my) sobriety or decency.
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Alonzo Harris
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Posted - 2011.03.21 08:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Soldarius On that, if two ships shooting each other with turrets are orbiting about a common object at the same distance and velocity, how does it affect their tracking?
That doesn't change anything. Regardless of what vector they're doing for whatever reason, their angular velocity towards eachother will always be exactly the same.
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