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blaze infernal
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Posted - 2011.03.21 15:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: blaze infernal on 21/03/2011 16:00:43 Hello all,
the following has been bothering me for a while. Technetium is insanely overpriced and is giving the few powerblocks that hold them an insane advantage. For instance if one block holds 50 moons for a month, which is not an exception, they gain 6.5 bil * 50 = 324 billion each month.
This is ISK that can be used to manipulate the game even further and will provide the means to keep holding these moons. Also you have to realize this is ISK that will NEVER leave the game. In the end, nobody will be able to withstand these few individuals, no matter how good they are, and EVE will have been broken.
The holders will be able to:
* buy high sp characters for their newer players * replace unlimited ships & caps * buy gametime for alts (+ superalts) * prevend newer players to grow into their own entities because they will never be allowed to get a foothold. * Hire unlimited amount of mercs * Raise prices on markets to their advantage * etc.
In conclusion:
The longer you allow this scam to live, the stronger the holders will get, and the less fun it will become for the rest of eve that tries to achieve something by hard work and dedication. Right now the organization behind the ones that hold the moons is not strong enough, but once it is there's no fixing it anymore. There will simply be to much isk in the hands of some individuals. Even if they get defeated at some point, they can start a new army on the fly and retake what was theirs under a different name.
In short: This has to stop & I hope you agree.
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FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.03.21 16:17:00 -
[2]
I know a good way to stop tech deficit - stop buying T2 But actually it's not a problem with technetium, reduce consumption of tech and next big thing will be neodimium, then something else. The problem is with moons producing the same amount of materials as years ago while T2 demand grows. There should be a fix to moon mining, maybe allow individuals mine some smaller quantities of moon minerals with PI-like mechanics; have separate material abundance in moons for these 'prospectors' RP explanation can be it is not feasible to mine small, depleateable deposits with a POS moonminer |
Guilliman R
Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.21 17:17:00 -
[3]
Feel free to come and conquer our moons
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.21 18:38:00 -
[4]
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The Offerer
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Posted - 2011.03.21 18:46:00 -
[5]
From: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1386019&page=1#4
Originally by: CCP Navigator Go go get some friends, form alliances and go kick them out if you are not happy about it.
That's what the sandbox is all about
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blaze infernal
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Posted - 2011.03.21 19:29:00 -
[6]
I like that CCP referance, only thing is that the reason that this is possible is because of a big scam, therefore it is a scam itself and should be against the EULA.
If you think that T2 building actually made the price this high you should wonder why the price didnt go up when T2 was first introduced...
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.21 19:47:00 -
[7]
I'm not seeing an actual proposal as to what to do about it, but the problem isn't with Tech. It's with moon mining in general.
OP shows a fundamental lack of understanding of economics. There is ALWAYS a choke point. Give all choke points a release valve and it's possible to keep all prices balanced to whatever ratios are desired. The big issue isn't that Tech is too valuable, it's that one mineral is valuable because a special interest group can control it's sources. It's also showing that the Alchemy mechanic is failing. Is Tech even covered by alchemy? Isn't Tech an R32, and only R64's are covered?
I do support that a more permanent and thorough solution to the moon mining bottlenecks be implemented.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.21 23:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: blaze infernal Also you have to realize this is ISK that will NEVER leave the game.
I'm not sure I understand this sentence. Are you saying that Tech moons are giving out ISK? How much ISK can you fit in a Silo?!
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Dalek Commander
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Posted - 2011.03.21 23:57:00 -
[9]
The north is ready for the taking, all you need is a few thousand dedicated PVP'rs, a couple hundred Super Caps (and plenty of spare replacements), and FC's who know how to run major cap fleets during every time zone. When you get all that together you'll fix the Tech moon problem.
-1 support.
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Charles Dickin
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Posted - 2011.03.22 04:04:00 -
[10]
TEST alliance successfully sprouted from nothing not long ago and now owns all of fountain, all while having zero tech moons. Obviously tech needs to be rebalanced, but your sputtering rage gets you nowhere.
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Ryan Starwing
Gallente Cryptonym Sleepers Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.03.22 11:15:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ryan Starwing on 22/03/2011 11:15:27 Edited by: Ryan Starwing on 22/03/2011 11:14:59 R64 needs a buff :P
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blaze infernal
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:22:00 -
[12]
Edited by: blaze infernal on 22/03/2011 12:22:59 @charles, test wouldn't have been able to do this without the help of the NC or goons, which indirectly relates to the technetium income. They were put there by NC & goons because they'll create a buffer. Nothing more, nothing less. Also I'm not raging, I'm only putting my finger on what I think is a sore spot and inbalance in the game.
@ Val'Dore, these moons generate alot of ISK since a small group can monopolize a key element in T2 production. As you probably know monopolizing something is a guarantee to make a ****load of ISK. Something that has to be prevented at all costs in a free market system.
People complain alot about the russians and their RMT or botting. The technetium deal is just as bad for the game itself and will keep getting worse as long as the system is unchanged.
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Darknesss
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.03.22 13:46:00 -
[13]
Moons in general need to be far less valuable, possibly even not giving out any resources period, and if they do nothing thats worth anywhere near as much as Technetium.
There was a time in this game when alliances could actually become bankrupt from war. The reason this was possible was because making ISK actually required a degree of effort. Mining used to be the only large source of income and getting together in a system and coordinating it was both dull and time consuming, but it made wars better because losing ships actually hurt. Tactics were a REQUIREMENT because the more you lost the more you had to put in to making ISK again and the more morale dropped, so it was important not to lose ships or fleets.
In its current state losing ships is simply a non-issue. There is so much cash available that the only way to beat an alliance is to either crack it from within or beat the hell out of them so much their members don't want to fight anymore, however thats not really possible since with 1k-2k in a system there is no beating an alliance tactically or with skill because your modules and tactics mean nothing when there is several minutes of delay on every action.
I would have no problem with alliances making 350b a month if all of their membership put in the effort to get it, but when large coalitions get together and sit on these literal ISK printing locations with such ease it means the game is indeed broken, and regardless of the flames that changing this would bring on CCP from these large entities they need to do something about it soon because this ISK will just build up and keep building up.
So how could we fix this? There are a couple of options I think would at least be a step in the right direction...
1. Have certain NPC stations offer unlimited resources at a certain price ie. 999,999,999,999 technetium available at XXXX price at certain stations in every empire region. This would prevent technetium from ever going above a certain point of CCP's choosing thus controlling alliances incomes.
2. Have a MUCH smaller portion of profitable locations, make it harder for alliances to split the massive volume of available resources between them, for example NC have 10 alliances (an example only) but there is only 1-2 valuable resource locations per region.
The reason for point 1. means that controlling the markets would be taken out of the players hands after a certain point. They will have control but their control would be controlled by CCP in the pricing of certain minerals.
For point 2. the reason I feel it would be better is because it would be a reason for coalitions to break up. If there is only a few easy and large ISK printing locations in their space the alliances will all want those points for themselves and theoretically may go to war for them or at the very least create friction between those "allies".
If taking again the NC as an example (theoretically), MM have a much larger income than say MH. There are only 2-4 of these high value locations within their space. MM can try and tell MH to give those resources to them (in turn annoying MH and causing friction) or MM can choose to share evenly and keep a co-operative relationship lowering MM's income and raising MH's and sharing the ISK more evenly rather than a few individuals controlling a huge portion of a coalitions overall income.
As that was quite a lengthy post I'll summarize:
- LARGE ISK making should be a time consuming task requiring the input of many
- The volume of resources needs to be far less than it is currently because huge coalitions can work together and share resources and all be happy. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the servers could handle fights of 1-2-3k smoothly but it cant, quite simply coalitions MUST be split up.
- War needs to cost more than alliances can make, it shouldn't REDUCE the overall income of the alliance, it should cost MORE than the alliance makes resulting in bankruptcy.
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nugget906
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dalek Commander The north is ready for the taking, all you need is a few thousand dedicated PVP'rs, a couple hundred Super Caps (and plenty of spare replacements), and FC's who know how to run major cap fleets during every time zone. When you get all that together you'll fix the Tech moon problem.
-1 support.
Originally by: The Offerer From: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1386019&page=1#4
Originally by: CCP Navigator Go go get some friends, form alliances and go kick them out if you are not happy about it.
That's what the sandbox is all about
Confirming this doesn't work. Why? Simple, whoever managed to get it will become the new owners of the monopoly. Different people, same stuff, as far as the market is concerned. It will change nothing that matters.
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Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.03.22 19:45:00 -
[15]
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.22 20:46:00 -
[16]
Throwing random numbers around angrily!
50 tech moons? Really? Very very few alliances have moon goo on that level. It also takes tons of resources to secure and protect such things as well as to run the supply chain. You could call that CoGS and/or expenses if you want to break down the numbers like an accountant.
Technetium sells for about 100k/unit. A moon produces 100 units per hour, or 10m isk per hour. A ratter can produce about 100m isk per hour with the occasional faction loot drops. A lvl 4 mission runner can make about 100m isk per hour. If your argument is that one is passive income and the other is active, you clearly haven't had to manage a POS.
The biggest flaw in your reasoning is that alliances are some kind of giant, monolithic individual and not a whole ton of individuals grouped together for the common good. Often, the moons are spread among corps within the alliance, cause let's be honest, everyone is greedy and they aren't going to protect someone else's income stream without reciprocity and a similar income stream. These corps have about 100 members on average. These members lose ships defending the moons which are reimbursed, usually through said moon goo.
In the end, a corp like mine nets a few hundred million to a billion in passive net income per month from moon goo (depending on how active military operations are). Right now, with the fighting going on between the NC and the DRC, this number is much reduced.
To put that in perspective, my R&D agents give me about 300m isk each month in completely passive income. I don't have to defend anything. I don't have to fuel anything. I just have to jump clone to empire and empty them every once in a while. If there is any passive income that is ridiculous, it is R&D agents in empire space.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Hermosa Diosas
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Posted - 2011.03.23 00:16:00 -
[17]
I agree that tech is crazy. I dont understand CCP they nerf dyspro and prom only to offer even MORE moons and higher prices with tech.
And venal as like 70 techs itself! Its crazy that blocs control everything.
My solution randomise moons on a monthly basis so there is a different minerals to moons every month. Make alliances work for that moon gold! Make them have a consequence to sending never ending mom fleets.
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blaze infernal
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Posted - 2011.03.23 16:23:00 -
[18]
Edited by: blaze infernal on 23/03/2011 16:26:09 @ darkness, thanks for your perspective. You make alot of good points, especially where you mention that loosing ships is not an issue anymore. A comment from an NC member regarding the valentine's day massacre comes to mind, just a day after it happened:
Quote: "all supers have already been replaced, no biggie"
11 titans were lost, and a ****load of moms, how can this be "no biggie"? The same goes for the russian side btw, however that is another matter which needs to be solved but not the subject of this proposal.
@ Bagehi. I wouldn't expect any NC member to agree with this m8. However these numbers are quite accurate. Venal region alone holds at least 50 tech moons.
Quote: The biggest flaw in your reasoning is that alliances are some kind of giant, monolithic individual and not a whole ton of individuals grouped together for the common good.
This quote quite surprises me. Everybody has witnessed that NC prefers to fight with a numerical advantage. How can you not agree that NC isn't one giant fighting force while it's the biggest blob in eve.
Also it doesnt take an accountant to realize that if a pos costs around 200 mil to run and generates around 6 bil a month, it's a good investment and worth the effort. Sure ppl have to spend some time and effort on the logistical chain but isn't that a small price to pay? Even if you have only one moon. Anyways I'm not going to go further into this, I think I made my point. Comparing it to ratting seems not even remotely sensible.
Another solution might be to give every region the exact same amount of moon minerals available. I would still make them less valuable because otherwise new and upcoming forces don't stand a chance and there's still no way of actually bankrupting an alliance.
Thanks for the support so far guys.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.23 17:22:00 -
[19]
It is "no biggie" because the core areas of the various blocs have been static for ages so there is probably a surplus of supers .. at this point I am willing to bet the bottleneck is pilots
Moon mining = Passive income = Bad for Eve.
- Remove all moon mining and replace with PI (even on moons). Opens market wide and allows for actual competition in everything related to T2. - Make the toll-booth in orbit destructible (until Dust comes along (as if!)) so production can be interrupted.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.23 18:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: blaze infernal A comment from an NC member regarding the valentine's day massacre comes to mind, just a day after it happened:
Quote: "all supers have already been replaced, no biggie"
This is chest beating. It is the internet spaceships version of "it is just a flesh wound" while bleeding out. Losing those titans hurt. A lot. We have lost more since. That hurt. A lot. For a good month, super caps weren't allowed in fights in the east.
Originally by: blaze infernal @ Bagehi. I wouldn't expect any NC member to agree with this m8. However these numbers are quite accurate. Venal region alone holds at least 50 tech moons.
Do you know how many different groups hold those moons?
Originally by: blaze infernal
Quote: The biggest flaw in your reasoning is that alliances are some kind of giant, monolithic individual and not a whole ton of individuals grouped together for the common good.
This quote quite surprises me. Everybody has witnessed that NC prefers to fight with a numerical advantage. How can you not agree that NC isn't one giant fighting force while it's the biggest blob in eve.
Most people in Eve want to fight with a numerical advantage. That's how the game is played. However, getting different parts of the NC to work together on any given day is crazy difficult. People don't see all the brokered deals that go on and see the NC as a single unit. Within the NC is a lot of greed, just like any large coalition or alliance. They work together generally for common good, but many won't lift a finger unless you force them or give them a carrot.
Originally by: blaze infernal Also it doesnt take an accountant to realize that if a pos costs around 200 mil to run and generates around 6 bil a month, it's a good investment and worth the effort. Sure ppl have to spend some time and effort on the logistical chain but isn't that a small price to pay? Even if you have only one moon. Anyways I'm not going to go further into this, I think I made my point. Comparing it to ratting seems not even remotely sensible.
The biggest cost comes from defending them. Tech moons provide a lot of income, but that also means everyone wants more, so alliances are constantly taking and losing them and losing ships in the process that are reimbursed from that income. Like I said, the corps in the alliances hold most of the moons. When you take reimbursements and fuel out of the income from the couple moons a corp gets, you end up with somewhere around a billion a month in net income.
Originally by: blaze infernal Another solution might be to give every region the exact same amount of moon minerals available. I would still make them less valuable because otherwise new and upcoming forces don't stand a chance and there's still no way of actually bankrupting an alliance.
Thanks for the support so far guys.
New and upcoming forces don't stand a chance, but that requires explanation. If you add more moons, the existing powers will take them all. Alliances collapse on a semi-regular basis. New ones form from connections and need. Most corps have been in multiple alliance and have connections with other corps in other alliances. When a collection of corps your corp has good relations with (outside in-game standings) band together and make a new alliance, your corp might join that alliance. From time to time, a corp that grew in empire and became strong enough will join a null sec alliance, then work its way up, forming relationships, moving through alliances.
Point is, Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
This is case for your proposal.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.23 19:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bagehi
Point is, Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
This is case for your proposal.
How would you say Malcanis' Law applies to expanding on the alchemy system? Seems that helped remove the other bottlenecks. What if with Alchemy it was possible to go from PI -> high end moon products without doing any actual moon mining (though of course it would not be very efficient and still require POS reactions.) The moons value could settle in to a price reflective of their actual rarity (tech is not the rarest moon min out there.) Pressure relief would be an option for everyone in the line including rookie PI producers to 1-man corps. Of course the richer and more powerful would be able to take advantage of the pressure relief, but no more than anyone else.
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