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Hot Pants
Caldari A-Team
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:24:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hot Pants on 22/03/2011 12:27:45 Just an idea...
There's always immense blobs of pilots shooting a primary target which imo is a bit weird. Ofcourse it's a nice and easy insta-pop and bad luck for the victim chosen at random but besides the fact that it makes fights way less interesting, in real space fights it never happens that 50 ships are shooting a single primary. Especially not if it's smaller ship types.
I've read many suggestions of people saying there should be a damage stacking nerf of some sort, more agressors = less damage. That could be a solution but isn't a viable one I think. Everyone wants their damage output to be as high as possible.
I thought of a way to nerf this problem differently, and to encourage having multiple small fights instead of picking pilots off one at the time with (usually) the largest blob coming out of the fight as the winner.
I think this can be accomplished by subtracting a certain amount from the sig radius of a ship once it's locked by an enemy. This would mean that locking the same ship by a 2nd will take longer, a 3rd even longer than that and so forth. Ofcourse it would be best if being locked by a smaller ship would subtract less from the sig than being locked by something big.
The effect would be that it's way more interesting to lock and shoot another ship than wait for a minute or more to have the primary locked. Ofcourse large ships have a way bigger sig so lock time on those will remain better for more (and especially smaller) ships.
Hmmm... Viable?
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Cellia Dacella
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:38:00 -
[2]
What you are trying to nerf is human nature, and statistics.
HMS HOOD, YAMAMOTO, BISMARK
All of them involved mass blobs shooting a primary target.
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Hot Pants
Caldari A-Team
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:39:00 -
[3]
Oops, maybe I should search before posting instead of after:
Linkage
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Hot Pants
Caldari A-Team
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Cellia Dacella What you are trying to nerf is human nature, and statistics.
HMS HOOD, YAMAMOTO, BISMARK
All of them involved mass blobs shooting a primary target.
So are you saying this isn't a problem in Eve because it's human nature to act this way?
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.03.22 12:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hot Pants
Originally by: Cellia Dacella What you are trying to nerf is human nature, and statistics.
HMS HOOD, YAMAMOTO, BISMARK
All of them involved mass blobs shooting a primary target.
So are you saying this isn't a problem in Eve because it's human nature to act this way?
More appropriately, it's not a coding problem in Eve, so fixing it with game mechanics is tricky, and very likely to irritate a large number of people since it goes against the way people behave naturally. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Cellia Dacella
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Posted - 2011.03.22 13:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Cellia Dacella on 22/03/2011 13:02:39 all I really see is changing the dynamics of the blob. and fittings
seconds and maybe a minute or two lost locking would force people to fit more sensor boosters and remote sensor boosters. Maybe even crunch the numbers and find a smaller class ship with better rez to make up for the lock times on primary. say A BS locks like normal B BS takes longer, C BS takes longest. Some decent number crunching finds that if pilot C switches to a BC he locks quicker and puts out more DPS than if he were to wait for lock on with BS.
I see no real way to kill the blob. One idea I had kicking around was more people shoot less stuff drops. Even go so far and say at some point if to many ships hitting primary there is a 100% chance of everything modules and cargo being destroyed. idk... like I sid before, what you are trying to do is nerf human nature.
Also adding fuel consumption for ships would also help, just cause it would make logistics even more difficult, and being able to field a large blob of pilots a truely expensive proposition.
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Heeraku
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Posted - 2011.03.22 13:10:00 -
[7]
Make a disco missile that has increased damage pr the number of players with each 5km range. Blob warfare solved.
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ScoRpS
0utbreak
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Posted - 2011.03.22 13:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hot Pants Edited by: Hot Pants on 22/03/2011 12:27:45 Just an idea...
There's always immense blobs of pilots shooting a primary target which imo is a bit weird.
I nearly stopped reading right here.
But its a decent idea. Unfortunatley it doesn't promote huge fleet fights. This is what CCP wants and represents the largest isk sink also.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.22 13:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 22/03/2011 13:37:20
Quote: There's always immense blobs of pilots shooting a primary target which imo is a bit weird. Ofcourse it's a nice and easy insta-pop and bad luck for the victim chosen at random but besides the fact that it makes fights way less interesting, in real space fights Wink it never happens that 50 ships are shooting a single primary.
Real space fights? Why do you think that fleet don't call out high value primary targets in real life? If this was truly random there would be fewer blobs because they would be less effective.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:55:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Barbara Nichole Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 22/03/2011 13:37:20
Quote: There's always immense blobs of pilots shooting a primary target which imo is a bit weird. Ofcourse it's a nice and easy insta-pop and bad luck for the victim chosen at random but besides the fact that it makes fights way less interesting, in real space fights Wink it never happens that 50 ships are shooting a single primary.
Real space fights? Why do you think that fleet don't call out high value primary targets in real life? If this was truly random there would be fewer blobs because they would be less effective.
They don't because one antiship missile breaks the back of all but the biggest naval ships. Back in time when naval weapons are ineffective, they don't have efficient form of communication to coordinate. "Real" combat is nothing like any game aside from the most hardcore simulators.
Bring back nano, renerf hp, and bring back the aoe torps.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.03.22 15:37:00 -
[11]
way people fight has much more to do with technologies used, then "human nature". mechanics of EVE encourage focus fire, so it's only "natural" to blob. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries R-I-P
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Posted - 2011.03.22 15:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hot Pants Edited by: Hot Pants on 22/03/2011 12:27:45 Just an idea...
There's always immense blobs of pilots shooting a primary target which imo is a bit weird. Ofcourse it's a nice and easy insta-pop and bad luck for the victim chosen at random but besides the fact that it makes fights way less interesting, in real space fights it never happens that 50 ships are shooting a single primary. Especially not if it's smaller ship types.
I'm afraid that you are completely wrong...
Additionally, it make perfect military sence to elimate the enemy as quickly and efficently as possible, hence a massive blob and primary that dictor....
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blazeyadeadhommie
Martyr's Vengence
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Posted - 2011.03.22 16:52:00 -
[13]
Well this is a very interesting idea except now you give a large 40 to 50 man gate camp an overwhelming advantage because they can all target each other in effect giving them a smaller sig radius. Then when your 50 man fleet jumps into them you can not get a lock for 45-75 seconds your fleet melts they laugh. so doing this will make fleet fights revolve around more gates and stations and will become who can lock up more first. So this is probably not a sound idea.
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akira1999
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Posted - 2011.03.22 17:32:00 -
[14]
blob tactics.. wolf packs.. us navy CAP (combat air patrol)..
it is a valid and long time used tactic to use overpowering force to rapidly destroy an enemy.
don't want to get destroyed.. stay out of low/null sec.. fit a cloak, or be in your own wolf pack and be the hunters.
but to nerf it would be rediculous.. what's next can't use multiple dictor bubbles.. no dual fitting scrams and ruptors.
eve is many games in one.. and one is a pvp combat game. don't like combat.. go shoot rocks with a hulk.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.23 13:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: akira1999 blob tactics.. wolf packs.. us navy CAP (combat air patrol)..
it is a valid and long time used tactic to use overpowering force to rapidly destroy an enemy.
don't want to get destroyed.. stay out of low/null sec.. fit a cloak, or be in your own wolf pack and be the hunters.
but to nerf it would be rediculous.. what's next can't use multiple dictor bubbles.. no dual fitting scrams and ruptors.
eve is many games in one.. and one is a pvp combat game. don't like combat.. go shoot rocks with a hulk.
Sir, you consistently misspelled ~wulfpax~.
I'll let you off with a warning this time.
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Zin Zy
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Posted - 2011.03.23 13:48:00 -
[16]
It's an interresting idea, but does hold one really big problem, besides the realism. If I was commanding blob 1, I would order 5 ships to lock as many of my own fleet ships, just to get an advantage against the enemy blob in locking time..
On the realism side, why whould a target get smaller because more people lock it? It's not like they put some sticker on the ships, saying "I locked this target".....
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.03.23 19:46:00 -
[17]
Interesting idea... but I need some time to think about it...
Logistics would suffer from this change, as they can no longer lock primary in a reasonable amount of time. But would this matter?
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Hot Pants
Caldari A-Team
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Posted - 2011.03.29 13:37:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Hot Pants on 29/03/2011 13:39:01 Hmmm... Well, maybe they could make it so that in order to remote rep someone, the logistics need to be in gang with the person he wants to rep.
When in gang the sig radius decrease wouldn't apply and logistics would lock just as fast as any other time. Ofcourse pilots could just not be in gang and lock eachother to decrease their sig but then they can't (all) be repped either...
Dunno... There's always loop holes when you look close enough I guess
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.03.29 18:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hot Pants Edited by: Hot Pants on 29/03/2011 13:39:01 Hmmm... Well, maybe they could make it so that in order to remote rep someone, the logistics need to be in gang with the person he wants to rep.
When in gang the sig radius decrease wouldn't apply and logistics would lock just as fast as any other time. Ofcourse pilots could just not be in gang and lock eachother to decrease their sig but then they can't (all) be repped either...
Dunno... There's always loop holes when you look close enough I guess
Just make it so that every kind of remote effect creates different kind of noise. Dealing dps creates one kind and the other people dealing dps to that target deals less. Remote repping - other kind and others rr is less effective.
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Dark Probe
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Posted - 2011.03.29 19:10:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dark Probe on 29/03/2011 19:11:12 so you're telling me you don't like the advantage there is in numbers? lol
2 to 5 ships deadly .. 100 ships useless... lol
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Zan Shiro
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Posted - 2011.03.30 00:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: blazeyadeadhommie Well this is a very interesting idea except now you give a large 40 to 50 man gate camp an overwhelming advantage because they can all target each other in effect giving them a smaller sig radius. Then when your 50 man fleet jumps into them you can not get a lock for 45-75 seconds your fleet melts they laugh. so doing this will make fleet fights revolve around more gates and stations and will become who can lock up more first. So this is probably not a sound idea.
this....would be viscious. Might see a need to spam lock breaker bombs (seems an unloved bomb to me).
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.03.30 02:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hot Pants in real space fights it never happens that 50 ships are shooting a single primary. Especially not if it's smaller ship types.
Mmmmmmyeeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhh...
"real space fights" like in BSG, Star Trek (all of them), Farscape, Babylon 5, etc. are designed to look "pretty" and last a long time (i.e. "eye candy") to keep the viewer entertained.
Now in "REAL fights"... the objective is to clear the field as "quickly and efficiently" as possible. Ergo, focusing the firepower of 500+ ships on 1 hapless soul at a time ensures swift destruction with minimal resistance and/or complications (like logi ships). _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.03.30 06:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: ShahFluffers
Originally by: Hot Pants in real space fights it never happens that 50 ships are shooting a single primary. Especially not if it's smaller ship types.
Mmmmmmyeeeeeeeaaaaaahhhhh...
"real space fights" like in BSG, Star Trek (all of them), Farscape, Babylon 5, etc. are designed to look "pretty" and last a long time (i.e. "eye candy") to keep the viewer entertained.
Now in "REAL fights"... the objective is to clear the field as "quickly and efficiently" as possible. Ergo, focusing the firepower of 500+ ships on 1 hapless soul at a time ensures swift destruction with minimal resistance and/or complications (like logi ships).
What real battles had all the soldiers/tanks/fighter jets shooting at a single target all the time?
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Marija Vanszar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.30 09:39:00 -
[24]
Just teach the idiots who are FCing the blobs, to learn some tactics instead of EVERYONE GET IN AND HOPE FOR THE BEST becouse i am unable to think of some basic tactics.
Just try thinking of: CORP A and Corp B, have a decent amount of systems. A knows that B is gonna attack System BLA A sits in System BLA with 600 People waiting for them. B is aproching B with 600 people Instead of B jumping 600 of them in and hope for the best against A, B decides to split the force, 6 groups each 100 people, and attacks 6 different Systems.
**** me if B wouldn't be able to take over at least 2 systems. Just because of the fact that A is not able to move that fast, they would become disorganized just like that! When they get to one of the 6 Systems, the part of B in there is able to just get out and attack another one, cousing HUGE problems to A.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.03.30 10:52:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 30/03/2011 10:54:18 IMO the best and most natural way to solve the primary target problem AND blob warfare problem is implementing the line of sight mechanics. In short, you can't shoot something that you can't see. So if your target is obscured by some kind of object, then you temporarily lose the ability to shoot it, until that target appears again.
Obscured targets should become "shaded" and disabled for attack.
Of course some obstacles should be possible to penetrate by guns, for example if it's only visually impenetrable object (a gas cloud for example) then you still can shoot it. But there should be different kinds of obstacles, including the ones that disable target tracking completely - which should depend on the sensor type. these should work like ECM but only for targets that are obscured by such an object. However, once the target reappears (no longer obscured by the object) the target should be quickly reacquired.
The missiles should also attempt to navigate a way to their target around the solid objects (ships, stations), and if that takes too much time they should expire naturally due to end of fuel.
This way there would be more tactics to the space fights, you wont just form a huge blob and shoot everything from any ship there is - you will have to make smaller groups that would spread in such a way that each ship would have some target visible.
there will also be a place for new warfare mechanics, for example some kind of AOE fog (several types - against magnetometric, radar, ladar, gravimetric sensor types) that creates an obstacle for target tracking since your sensors can't see through it, so you will have to use some counter measures or simply move so that the obstacle is no longer a problem.
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Isotropic Vector Matrix
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Posted - 2011.04.04 07:20:00 -
[26]
using ore to create fog
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