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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
276
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:09:00 -
[31] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote: to Malcanis: im not in a class based mindset. you're misunderstanding what im trying to talk about here...edit: im not saying there is a class A and class B and you can only do one or the other. im asking why roles other than pvp carry the carebear label which is either used as an insult or to belittle the role of the individual within EVE dynamics (sure this is all opinion based and simple epeen smack talk but otherwise no one goes "you're just a pvp-er who needs to listen to you" at least i havent seen that)...
Have you not? I've had my ideas belittled on this basis many times. One simple experiment you can perform is to suggest that the hi-sec economy be rebalanced to reward risk (Use an alt for this, obviously). That's an easy way to get dozens of people called you a "ganktard" "pirate who wants easy kills" etc., without ever actually addressing the points that you make.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote:
well said. but even though. everyone does or seemingly do use it as a negative.
lets take your example further: if im not mistaken to be called homosexual is 'politically correct' and is not offensive where as calling someone 'gay' or '****' is (at least of the people i know feel this way).
where does the line between objective and subjective start when you're name calling...when does it become an insult?..
edit: even CCP thinks its offensive lol (didnt realise they auto censored)
Social engineering. They switch name-calling when they switch political correctness...
Another one is being afro-american / black / ******. Its all about social engineering.
We are sheeps we live in herds. We are easily manipulated, but i guess more and more people realise that all pollitical correctness is just bullshit. Because those involved just crossed the line too many times in very short spawn.
Edit : moral of story is : when people start to stop giving a **** about pollitical correctnes and "judge people" in regards of their actions / or other express of their "personality" the word will become better place, or maybe an war zone who knows... |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jaroslav: well played. i unfort changed my field when I started doing my masters but I would have been interested in examining EVE in a socio-political spectrum on the side. right now masters is just chewing me up without hesitation.
Malcanis: interesting i was not aware of that. thanks for the info...coming into EVE late as did (relative to release date) was like stepping into a new world with its own socio-political dynamics. always interested in learning as much about the eve-player dynamics as the game itself... |
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
..." moral of story is : when people start to stop giving a **** about pollitical correctnes and "judge people" in regards of their actions / or other express of their "personality" the word will become better place, or maybe an war zone who knows..."
^^^^ This sentence has no information in it.
Kills corpies to deny enemy kill statistic = carebear Determines worth of self or others by their stats, wealth, influence, etc = carebear Seriously gets upset at ship loss, or refuses to even risk it = carebear Teases the loser of a battle in any way = carebear
That's right, i'm expanding the meaning of carebear to include anyone so emotionally entangled in an aspect of the game it leads them to deride or not even try another aspect of the same game. Tortuous sentence there i know but oh well.
Seen the same attitude among hisec barnacles as well as nullsec war pigs. It seems like the strength of the original Goons was that they didn't care, but i keep meeting ones that have devolved into (lol) winners. |
Froz3nEcho Sarain
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
91
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Posted - 2011.09.27 07:57:00 -
[35] - Quote
Samroski wrote:This issue separates the boys from men. Having said that, I am a boy and proud of it.
And you killed your statement by double posting it.
On topic:
Don't bother what people say about care bears. A big part of the EvE community seems to be elitist pvp pricks who call everyone a carebear that doesn't actively pvp every minute of their playing time in EvE. Just enjoy the game in your own way like everybody else should ~ When everything fades away, an echo is the only sound that will remain ~ -á-á~ Chaos is a name for any order that produces confusion in our minds ~ |
Barricade Dark
39
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Posted - 2011.09.27 08:17:00 -
[36] - Quote
Chopper Rollins wrote:..." moral of story is : when people start to stop giving a **** about pollitical correctnes and "judge people" in regards of their actions / or other express of their "personality" the word will become better place, or maybe an war zone who knows..."
^^^^ This sentence has no information in it.
Kills corpies to deny enemy kill statistic = carebear Determines worth of self or others by their stats, wealth, influence, etc = carebear Seriously gets upset at ship loss, or refuses to even risk it = carebear Teases the loser of a battle in any way = carebear
That's right, i'm expanding the meaning of carebear to include anyone so emotionally entangled in an aspect of the game it leads them to deride or not even try another aspect of the same game. Tortuous sentence there i know but oh well.
Seen the same attitude among hisec barnacles as well as nullsec war pigs. It seems like the strength of the original Goons was that they didn't care, but i keep meeting ones that have devolved into (lol) winners.
Ya I have to agree. From what I have seen Eve players are often two faced.. On the one (if they one up you) they are ROFL, calling you a nub or carebear and pretending like their some sort of elitist PvPer. On the other, when you one up them, they cry in local like a miner who just got popped. Same guy, different circumstances, totaly different attitude. Its exactly what happent to me last night. I got popped... went and grabbed a rifter and one upped the gate campers... then suddenly the tears where flowing in local.
People just can't seem to win or loose with any dignity or self respect. |
Xearal
SOL Industries Black Thorne Alliance
15
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Posted - 2011.09.27 08:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
Gregor Palter wrote:it depends how you define the term carebear. If you explain it as "people who do non-combat pvp" then I agree with most in this thread about how silly it is, and just to ignore the idiot who use it.
To me a carebear is someone who simply does not acknowledge the fact that this is a PVP game and that, sooner or later, it might knock on his door. Who will flail his arms blaming others for his own lack of effort and understanding. Someone who loses a hauler to a suicide is not necessarily a carebear, he just couldn't be bothered. Someone who starts whining about how unfair it is and how it is impossible to not get suicided blahblahblah, THAT is a carebear.
I realise that this is a very limited view and probably not how the majority sees it.
^^ THIS!
To me, a carebear is someone who shies away from anything remotely PvP, who goes out blowing up NPCs in missions etc, and when PvP comes a knocking cries about the unfairness of it. USUALLY they stick to high sec, though I've seen them crying in low sec when their covetor was blown up.
These are people I pity. ( and laugh at when they're not looking )
Personally, I consider myself an industrialist. I generally don't go out of my way to pew pew people, sometimes when I feel like it, I'll join an alliance/blue roam, generally as logistics as my pew pew skills are just enough to do the odd mission. That said, when someone wardecs us, or if I'm in low/null sec, I don't go crying. I'l put the dust cover on my orca and my freighters, and remove the dust cover from my PvP fit hurricane, my stealth bombers, and my Logistics ships. I will assess the situation, weigh risk vs rewards, and then go ahead and do what I want anyway. I make regular trips in null sec to do my Planetary interaction, and during a brief time we had a ceasefire with the local null sec dwellers, I felt less at ease flying there than I did when they were red. I LIKE dodging gatecamps in my prowler, it's one of the kinds of 'pvp' I do regularly. My wits, cloak, and all the other tricks I've stashed into my prowler, vs a whole squad/fleet of people trying to kill me.
I fight over prices with people on the local market, undercut, overbid, outbuy, and generally harass my faceless market opponents into submission to get the almighty ISK.
I make backdoor deals with people to supply me with goods above the market price, so they will always sell to me instead of whoever is on top in the market, cutting my competitors off from their supplies.
I am always building and selling things, exploring new markets, and new opportunities. Work on my spreadsheets, enhance my Spread-fu, and invest money into more business.
Am I a carebear for not flying around all the time looking for fights? I don't think so. I'm an industrialist. War is good for profit.
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Gealbhan
GealCorp
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 08:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
PvE/PvP: To each their own.
I used to live in null sec as part of an alliance etc. Did the whole PvP thing. I've since retired to highsec, repaired my standings somewhat and now I mission/mine for a living.
As times change so did I as an eve player. We're all evolving constantly in game and that's what makes us the community we are. |
Potato IQ
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2011.09.27 10:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
If you donGÇÖt actively seek ship combat PvP, you are a carebear, and this is regardless of the security level of the system you call home. I struggle to understand how any other form of PvP, whilst interesting and lucrative to many, can fail to label a pilot as such
I have two combat pilots that will partake in activities to generate isk for ships, but this is secondary to finding targets to test my skills against. I have a mainly HS dwelling alt that moves resources about, but does have some combat skills. I donGÇÖt plan on having to engage other pilots with a weapon if at all possible, although it is inevitable if not consensual. He is a carebear who feeds those that arenGÇÖt, but heGÇÖs still a carebear
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Zey Nadar
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.09.27 10:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Doing PvE as such is not the problem. Hardcore pvpers just get angry when some people refuse to fight for what they have. In nullsec for example, calling for a defense fleet and having your corpies not join it is a source of angst. This creates an illusion that some people 'are only carebears' and wont fight. Even though they might be afk doing whatever..
ps. If you are looking for fights, then you basically would never have time for pve.. |
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White Tree
Broski Federation Elite Space Guild
202
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Posted - 2011.09.27 11:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
EVE is a PVP game. PVE is conducted to fuel PVP and the subsequent destruction of ships. PVE in EVE is bad because EVE is bad. |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
48
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Posted - 2011.09.27 11:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
Pay it no mind - apart from when (as someone said above) it's used to express annoyance at corpmates who in times of crisis do PvE instead of joining in with defence, it's just a sort of running joke in EVE.
In terms of FUNCTION, for every "pirate" there's a "carebear" alt, who is liable to get ganked as much as the next guy if he's not in a PvP-fit ship.
In terms of PREFERENCE, there are obviously many people playing EVE who try to avoid PvP combat as much as possible, and I suppose you could legitimately call them "carebears proper", but: a) EVE is an open world PvP game, so it's never possible to avoid PvP combat entirely; b) avoiding PvP combat is itself a form of PvP (obviously so, since CCP have given people the tools to avoid PvP combat, to a certain extent, if they so wish); and c) there's an in-game economy, so such players just as necessary to the game as the PvP-ers.
IOW, it's only n00bs who take the Carebear vs. PK theatre seriously. Everyone else snickers up their sleeve at them. |
J Kunjeh
78
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Posted - 2011.09.27 11:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
We can't all be highly paid star athletes (super-duper leet PVP'ers), someone has to pick up the trash and clean out the sewers (so-called carebears). That is, unless you're a large null-sec alliance...then you just have robots do all the dirty work. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
79
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Posted - 2011.09.27 11:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kaede Kimura wrote:It just comes from a simple fact that people feel that anyone can PvE (melt rocks, grind missions), but PvP is where one can really prove their skill. It also depends on how you define carebear, would station traders be included? Playing on the market can be considered as a form of pvp in EVE.
Just blob them.
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Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.27 13:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
so interesting to see the various replies and the personalities each of you bring to the table...
side qn: is exploration a worthwhile profession in EVE these days? or rather is there much to really find that is new and uncharted?) |
AFKCloaked AltSpy
MasterMined Technologies
13
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Posted - 2011.09.27 14:11:00 -
[46] - Quote
All players in Eve are carebears OP. They either Pve, or do some form of pve for their PvP "main", or they buy their money. Or blob. or live in a WH.
Its just a way of saying "you don't do what I do so you're not as good as me". Which roughly translates to "I have Daddy issues". |
Ana Vyr
65
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Posted - 2011.09.27 14:20:00 -
[47] - Quote
The stigma is in your mind, and the minds of all the internet spaceship pilots who think everyone should play the game just like they do. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.09.27 18:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
Seraph Cruoris wrote: what is with the carebear stigma? i could be wrong but from my understanding the majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat.
You may need them, but why would you respect them?
What virtues do they posses, that are appreciable and rare and make them stand out of the crowd ?
PS. The same applies to all the f1-f8 monkeys, of course. |
Seraph Cruoris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.09.28 02:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:
You may need them, but why would you respect them?
What virtues do they posses, that are appreciable and rare and make them stand out of the crowd ?
PS. The same applies to all the f1-f8 monkeys, of course.
That depends what you define as carebear and what you define as pvp; one example id say anyone that plays the market def has qualities that can be appreciated while they may not be able to be compared directly to 'pvp proper' its still admirable qualities. esp if they do it at a large scale which requires real organizational and logistical skills.
I guess thats the amazing thing about EVE you actually CAN play it anyway you want and there's actual depth to all facets of EVE. they might not be as fleshed out as others but they're not shallow add ons either.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
17
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Posted - 2011.09.28 05:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
Carebear is a term used often by those who think that their way of playing is the only way, and seek to denigrate other ways to play.
Usually these are the griefers and killmail addicts.
Carebear is a very loosely defined term anyway. It can be said that someone who never leaves high-sec is a carebear, but how about someone in 0.0 who sweats at the idea of removing local because they won't know when to dock up?
Yes, there are such things as "nullbears" and "wormbears" too.
There are even gankbears. These are the uber l33t PVPers who will never engage someone unless it's their gate camp or blob versus one or maybe two. Heck I had 4 guys in frigates and cruisers run from my exploration fit Cyclone and it was their own stinking bubble I got stuck in! (probably came back with battleships not knowing that my Cyclone in overheat will run over 1200 KM/Sec but oh well).
The term Carebear and the other versions of it are as loosely used as the term "pirate". There are people killing everything that moves calling themselves pirates. And without their carebear indie alts earning the ISK, they would never be as rich as real pirates. Some people who trick a noob into joining their corp, and then kicking them after moving their stuff, popping their ship, and scramming their pod while laughing at the noob. They too call themselves pirates but there are more descriptive definitions for that sort who will deny being griefers even after they day they make some 11 year old hang himself in the closet (upon realizing the world has such people in it).
We can attach "bear" to just about anything that is taken a bit far or repeated to some extent while at the same time, avoiding as much risk as possible - you know, like the real world. For example, I could be called an "explorationbear" because while I do go into wormholes and 0.0 for exploration, I take precautions to avoid PVP. I have a ship in use from 2009 to show my bearness.
Does this make me a coward or someone who avoids bad tactical decisions? I ask that because I have seen threads started people people who state "so I wanted to get into PVP" and then they go on to detail how they purchased and outfitted their best ship they could buy with the lvl 4 Mission money, complete with all T2 and....
got ganked horribly the moment they hit a lowsec pipeline.
Now, there is PVP, and there is cowardice (bearness?) but is feeding ships to the sharks at will a good idea? I avoid PVP because I know that nothing survives a gate camp or bubble camp and the Russians don''t like it when you make their bots safe up in drone space.
I've dueled with many in other threads raging "carebear this and carebear that" while trying to explain to them that even if people geared up and marched like lemmings into their lowsec gate camps, even if they managed to convince themselves that they like it, eventually they have to stop because they run out of money.
But some people, having always been told how smart and special they are from their childhood, even while being a rather crappy kid, still think that everything has to be the way they say it should be, and everybody else is a carebear - or whatever term they use to denigrate others who are not as special as themselves.
Ignore the terminology, and do whatever the f**k you want. Nobody's paying your sub.
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Eyup Mi'duck
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 11:00:00 -
[51] - Quote
There are two types of player in EVE.
Those who like to build pretty sandcastles are CAREBEARS.
Those who like to jump on carebear's sandcastles and kick them to pieces are GRIEFERS.
CAREBEARS think GRIEFERS are destructive and uncaring bullies.
GRIEFERS think that CAREBEARS are pathetic wimps with no balls for a fight.
Both are right!
However, most GRIEFERS will resort to carebearing activities to keep themselves supplied with an isk-stream, whereas most CAREBEARS prosper without griefing at all. I am me.-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á I am not you.-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áI am happy with this situation. |
The Old Chap
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2011.09.28 11:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
White Tree wrote:EVE is a PVP game. PVE is conducted to fuel PVP and the subsequent destruction of ships. PVE in EVE is bad because EVE is bad.
WRONG.
Yes, of course you can PvP in EVE but EVE is a make-a-living-and-fly-in-space-simulation-game. Many players happily exist in EVE without PvP. |
Zey Nadar
Aliastra Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2011.09.28 11:07:00 -
[53] - Quote
Eyup Mi'duck wrote:There are two types of player in EVE.
Those who like to build pretty sandcastles are CAREBEARS.
Those who like to jump on carebear's sandcastles and kick them to pieces are GRIEFERS.
link
This forum fails for not allowing to embed pictures.. |
raker
Imperial Collective
13
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Posted - 2011.09.28 11:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
The fact is the game needs carebears
Carebears and those that do PVP need eachother, the carebears build and supply ships whilst the Pvpers maintain the demand by killing ships
I know chars who are in big indy corps and enjoy it, whilst I dwell in a WH and enjoy the pvp side, the game is a sandbox do what you enjoy doing
Thier may be a stigma attached to carebears, but without them the pvp guys would not have so much fun
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Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
18
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Posted - 2011.09.28 14:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
raker wrote:
The fact is the game needs carebears
Carebears and those that do PVP need eachother, the carebears build and supply ships whilst the Pvpers maintain the demand by killing ships
I know chars who are in big indy corps and enjoy it, whilst I dwell in a WH and enjoy the pvp side, the game is a sandbox do what you enjoy doing
Thier may be a stigma attached to carebears, but without them the pvp guys would not have so much fun
wrong, becouse most of the hardcore pvp guys are building they're ships themselve, or the big corps / alliances have got a own production line for everything. ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |
Brenya Perircle
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 14:59:00 -
[56] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Quote:majority of the EVE economy is player driven, wouldn't you technically need these 'carebears' to keep the economy afloat. I understand they're not people you want in PvP or those defending your miners (who also garner the stigma).
I was just wondering really and was hoping to see what the opinions are. Easily answered. The military. For every frontline troop there are (best guess) 10 "rear-echelon" soldiers. No rear-echelon soldier ever needs to be "brave" "daring" or "courageous". Thus they are not "fighters" but (read) cowardly individuals unable or unwilling to fight. (That's perception, not fact) Thus they are treated with contempt by the "leets" who, if my hypothesis is correct, aren't "leet" at all. Take no notice. Genuinely and truly brave/courageous people are usually the first to acknowledge that the people around them are what makes them great. Go 'Bears...
I'm not really sure this analogy holds true anymore. I feel front line soldiers are perceived more as knuckle dragging grunts. Thanks Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan :D |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
40
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Posted - 2011.09.28 15:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
To me a Carebear is a TYPE of High Sec dweller. It's the kind of high sec dweller that is so fixated on "PVE" content in a world of PVP, that he ignores and neglects that it even exists. He thinks High Sec is "Safe" and that "Scams" are exploits, and so on.
If you think of Low Sec and become scared and nervous - you might be a Carebear
If you don't know what a Warp Bubble Is - you might be a Carebear
If you stroke your ego imagining your Tricked Out Faction-Fit Golem Mission Boat is going to pwnzr the next ninja looter to enter your plex - you might be a Carebear
If when you get war dec-ed in High Sec, your first instinct is to grab the biggest ship you have and undock with it - you might be a Carebear
If you're afraid of going into Low Sec with an 80 Man Incursion HQ fleet - you might be a Carebear
If you have never blown someone up, ever, in EVE - you might be a Carebear
If Null Sec 10 jumps away seems rather far away - you might be a Carebear
If Null Sec 45 jumps away REALLY seems far away - you've never used Carrier logistics... and are probably a Carebear
Finally - If all of your interactions with other players involve key presses between the letter Q to the letter M on your keyboard, and not F1-F8 - you're probably a Carebear. NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
De'Veldrin
Norse'Storm Battle Group Intrepid Crossing
8
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Posted - 2011.09.28 15:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote:Some people here seem to confuse the act of making money to spend it on, for example, PvP ships with the act of making money for the sake of making money.
Kill mails and ISK serve the same purpose to different people.
They're just handy ways of keeping score.
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Thorn Galen
The Scope Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2011.09.28 16:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Ignore the terminology, and do whatever the f**k you want. Nobody's paying your sub.
This. Everyone has their own ideas, but the above is the plain, simple truth of it all. Servitudes - The name given to members of very large alliances. |
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
15
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Posted - 2011.09.28 16:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
Everyone has to raise isk in this game in some way or another
to me a carebear is someone who thinks that the rules of pvp dont apply to them
they take expensive ships into lowsec to rat/mission and whine when they are destroyed
Or when there corp/alliance is wardeced they either moan or go missing from the game on there main and just keep playing on an alt.
This is the only time i can say that carebear can be used in a negative context. |
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