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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.31 04:27:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 31/03/2011 04:29:09 This is EvE,
Everyone does things that are stupid to you that make sence to them.
and odds are they think your doing something that to them seems stupid.
In the end all we have realy proven is that 90% of the player base is stupider than everyone else. its a recursive loop, get over it .end of line.
----
If you think your too paranoid to play EvE...
Then you clearly are not paranoid enough to play EvE
(Alt list) Rico Lobo |
Kaivar Lancer
General Exports
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Posted - 2011.04.02 14:50:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Kaivar Lancer on 02/04/2011 14:50:55
Originally by: Diana Kim As a large scale T2 manufacturer I often sell my t2 gear below Jita prices because of tradetards who try to cut my sell orders (like by 0.01 isk) in system where i produce my stuff.
Hmmmmm. So you sell below Jita prices. Outside Jita. You could sell that T2 gear below Jita prices in Jita and see it snapped up in a micro-second. Instead you'd rather wait a month for it to sell in Derelik. I just don't see the point.
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Maverick2011
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Posted - 2011.04.02 15:12:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Khory Thunderstar "Are some industrialists born stupid?"
Most people are born stupid
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer Hmmmmm. So you sell below Jita prices. Outside Jita. You could sell that T2 gear below Jita prices in Jita and see it snapped up in a micro-second. Instead you'd rather wait a month for it to sell in Derelik. I just don't see the point.
What I'm curious about is why this all seems to upset you? Are you not happy making a profit off the opportunities you see people passing up?
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NFrann
Phoenix Enterprises Ltd. Hyperion Titans Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:55:00 -
[35]
:)
Don't hate the playa baby, hate the game.... |
Kaivar Lancer
General Exports
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Posted - 2011.04.03 07:18:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Kaivar Lancer on 03/04/2011 07:24:31
Originally by: Maplestone What I'm curious about is why this all seems to upset you? Are you not happy making a profit off the opportunities you see people passing up?
Like I said in a previous post, it's all good if the manufacturer spits out a volume that I can sell within a reasonable time. The problem occurs when the manufacturer produces more supply than the market demands, depressing prices and thereby killing both our profits.
Here's an example that stands foremost in my mind, 1MN Afterburner II in a remote region bordering low-sec space. It's an item that typically enjoys a 50-100% profit margin but sells relatively slow (around 8 per day, regionwide). One day I woke up to discover some person decided to dump 160+ of 1MN Afterburner II in my particular station. This wouldn't be a problem if he simply 0.01 isked me. But no, he sells at Jita prices. I concluded that this had to be an industrialtard who used a Jita-based manufacturing calculator because no sensible trader would waste his time shipping 160 units for no profit.
Lets do some basic mathematics. There are approximately 25 sale orders in the region. 8 units are sold daily. If sales were determined randomly, the industrialtard would sell 0.32 units per day (8/25 = 0.32). It would take 500 days to sell out.
Lets increase our optimism. Of those 8 units sold daily, lets assume two are sold via this particular order because it's so cheap. It will still take 80 days to sell out.
All I ask is why? Just plonk those goods in Jita and it'll sell in a week without babysitting your order.
And here's the caveat: the industrialtard is assuming no-one else is going to compete, perhaps because his volume is so high or his price is so cheap. This assumption is wrong. In this case, another trader and I have simply 0.01 isked him. I can't speak for the other trader, but I'm clearing my stock and would accept a small loss just to get my capital working again. It may take a week or two for me to clear my stock. That's an extra week this industrialtard will have to wait before he sees any meagre isk from his tarded order. And according to eve-tools, he's only making what, 30k per unit? When he could be making 300k? Seriously WTF.
Why don't I buy him out, you wonder? If this industrialtard is willing to arbitrarily plonk 160 units at Jita prices, there's no reason why he won't do it again.
Maybe what I'm trying to teach to the people in Science & Industry is that once you start selling your products, you become a trader. Sometimes keeping the pie to yourself is worst than sharing the pie and slicing it in half. I profit, you profit.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.03 11:33:00 -
[37]
So this guy instantly sold his entire stock at Jita prices without wasting any of his time babysitting orders and 0.01 ISKing the OP? Good for him.
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TravisWB
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:35:00 -
[38]
Well, seems a lot of people do all their EVE shopping at trade hubs. To attract any customers at all many indy's must sell below trade hub prices in their remote manufacturing center.
And by the time an Indy figures out that manufacture is one of the most inefficient ways to generate isk they are pretty much just marking time anyway, waiting for pvp skills to build.
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Revolution Rising
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.04 03:00:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Revolution Rising on 04/04/2011 03:03:55
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer Edited by: Kaivar Lancer on 03/04/2011 07:24:31
Originally by: Maplestone What I'm curious about is why this all seems to upset you? Are you not happy making a profit off the opportunities you see people passing up?
Like I said in a previous post, it's all good if the manufacturer spits out a volume that I can sell within a reasonable time. The problem occurs when the manufacturer produces more supply than the market demands, depressing prices and thereby killing both our profits.
Yeah completely agree with this.. I tried and failed earlier to make a similar point, I think you're wasting your breath at this point. With the kind of order that guy had I would sell into a reasonable buy order in the region or ship it elsewhere.
99% of these guys either don't get it or will merely troll.
The same is true of the market itself. They ruin parts of the market daily and sometimes hourly because they really just have World of Warcraft brains trying to play Eve Online.
RR.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2011.04.04 03:29:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Golanik
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer I buy him out
So he lists his items (at some decent margin he's comfortable with despite it being less than what he COULD get) and sells them in about two seconds to you, pocketing his profits almost instantaneously?
He profits and you profit. Seems like you're both benefiting from this arrangement. What's the problem again?
Sounds like this. Couple that with some people liking their lil off-hub spots to themselves, for whatever reason.. and they'll keep dumping a certain quantity (depending on varies factors) of items at jita price, slightly lifting the cost each time u buy him out. Before you know it.. a lot of your capital is tied up in a singular asset that you coulda got for even cheaper with Jita buy orders. Next thing you know that person dumps a crap ton of the same item in the little off-hub station at the first original price.. after you just been buying him out at slightly higher prices.
Whatcha goin' to do then? Chances are you'll pack up and leave. And that 'stupid' industrialist gets his quiet lil off-hub back to himself.. reaping the swift quick turn over you gave him/her, and the markup they can enjoy without competition again. ---------------------------------------- Treat the EVE markets like you are its Pimp.. it is your 'willing' employee to fondle n use n abuse as you please. |
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.04 04:16:00 -
[41]
Turns of inventory.
Once upon a time, retailers planned a 50% profit margin and a single "turn of the inventory" every few months. Buy $1 million of inventory, sell it over a few months for $2 million. do that a few times a year.
Along come discount retailers that accept much lower margins but turn thier inventory much more quickly. Buy $1 million, sell it for $1.2 million, do it a couple times a month.
In EVE, buy 1 million worth of stuff, invent, react it, build with it, spend months waiting for it to sell so that you can buy more stuff. Meanwhile, your POS is sitting there not reacting anything and not inventing anything while you're waiting for the goods to sell.....
Or,binvent it, by it react it, buiold it, bump it as quickly as possible at an acceptable profit to allow you to buy more moon goo and datacores too keep the supply lines rolling.
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.04.04 08:08:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Maplestone on 04/04/2011 08:08:16
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer Sometimes keeping the pie to yourself is worst than sharing the pie and slicing it in half. I profit, you profit.
I see your logic, but what you are describing is an opportunity to go player by player making business propositions and new friends. I like a good business plan as much as the next player, but I find it rather harsh to describe someone as "stupid" just for not playing at the same focus and intensity as a hard core merchent.
To me, the background of irrational decisions and mysterious motives is what gives the game texture and life. I see a certain level of chaos as the natural state of the game's economy, not a perfectly ticking universal supply chain that random people are ruining.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 16:26:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer Edited by: Kaivar Lancer on 03/04/2011 07:24:31
Originally by: Maplestone What I'm curious about is why this all seems to upset you? Are you not happy making a profit off the opportunities you see people passing up?
Like I said in a previous post, it's all good if the manufacturer spits out a volume that I can sell within a reasonable time. The problem occurs when the manufacturer produces more supply than the market demands, depressing prices and thereby killing both our profits.
Here's an example that stands foremost in my mind, 1MN Afterburner II in a remote region bordering low-sec space. It's an item that typically enjoys a 50-100% profit margin but sells relatively slow (around 8 per day, regionwide). One day I woke up to discover some person decided to dump 160+ of 1MN Afterburner II in my particular station. This wouldn't be a problem if he simply 0.01 isked me. But no, he sells at Jita prices. I concluded that this had to be an industrialtard who used a Jita-based manufacturing calculator because no sensible trader would waste his time shipping 160 units for no profit.
Lets do some basic mathematics. There are approximately 25 sale orders in the region. 8 units are sold daily. If sales were determined randomly, the industrialtard would sell 0.32 units per day (8/25 = 0.32). It would take 500 days to sell out.
Lets increase our optimism. Of those 8 units sold daily, lets assume two are sold via this particular order because it's so cheap. It will still take 80 days to sell out.
All I ask is why? Just plonk those goods in Jita and it'll sell in a week without babysitting your order.
And here's the caveat: the industrialtard is assuming no-one else is going to compete, perhaps because his volume is so high or his price is so cheap. This assumption is wrong. In this case, another trader and I have simply 0.01 isked him. I can't speak for the other trader, but I'm clearing my stock and would accept a small loss just to get my capital working again. It may take a week or two for me to clear my stock. That's an extra week this industrialtard will have to wait before he sees any meagre isk from his tarded order. And according to eve-tools, he's only making what, 30k per unit? When he could be making 300k? Seriously WTF.
Why don't I buy him out, you wonder? If this industrialtard is willing to arbitrarily plonk 160 units at Jita prices, there's no reason why he won't do it again.
Maybe what I'm trying to teach to the people in Science & Industry is that once you start selling your products, you become a trader. Sometimes keeping the pie to yourself is worst than sharing the pie and slicing it in half. I profit, you profit.
TL;DR
Some guy made money but cut into my profits doing so, therefore he is stupid. .
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.04 19:04:00 -
[44]
ab II? I didn't know anyone was still using T2 for AB and MWD with the best named ones selling for at or below mineral cost.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.04 19:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer And according to eve-tools, he's only making what, 30k per unit? When he could be making 300k? Seriously WTF.
Maybe he has a T2 BPO, is producing for a much lower coast than this. Maybe he's producing in such high quantities that he has to plunk down a huge sell order in every region to keep his T2 BPO fully utilized. Maybe he wants to push down the price of T2 ABs to the point that people stop using top named instead, and he's put all the inventors out of business.
With the insane drop rate of top named ABs and MWDs, the market for the T2s has really been distorted. I would guess it is so bad that now total consumption of T2 AB and MWD is less than the manufacturing potential of the T2 BPOs.
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Revolution Rising
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.05 11:47:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Revolution Rising on 05/04/2011 11:48:09 This thread above shows exactly how stupid much of the playerbase is.
Why bother?
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Crenash Wandigo
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Posted - 2011.04.11 00:13:00 -
[47]
Apparently he wasn't stupid... You would have to be stupid to think he is stupid for making a profit.
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Twylla
Gallente Avatar Dynasty Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2011.04.11 05:59:00 -
[48]
There's always the risk in buying out heavy under-cutters, and that's taking on more stock than you can sell off before they come back, either blithely encouraged by their brisk sales or deliberately trying to glut your stock. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Twylla DeVarii
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Frank Shitlitz
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Posted - 2011.04.11 08:04:00 -
[49]
It seems to me that if the "tard" put his orders up for more ISK he would be losing a TON of profit right now.
Sounds like the OP is just bad at economics. vOv
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Gillaboo
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Posted - 2011.04.11 11:34:00 -
[50]
Yes.
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Savoian
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Posted - 2011.04.11 13:58:00 -
[51]
Hello, I just wish to answer your question:
Originally by: Kaivar Lancer Are you an industrialtard?
Yes I am.
Sav
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Io Koval
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:48:00 -
[52]
I think the new definition of "Industrialtard" is "one that does not understand the Nash Equilibrium."
Long story short, each hub has a natural price for a module given suppliers and consumers.
Assuming demand > supply: When people have 0.01 ISK wars, the price evens out where suppliers can't lower their orders more because their trade orders are being sold out to consumers at that price. Let's call that price X. At Jita, this is known as the Jita price (I'll call it J). Anywhere else, X > J (when following the earlier assumption). Thus, everyone currently in the 0.01 ISK war is making X-J additional profit. When an Industrialtard decides "I'm going to sell at Jita prices", then suddenly no-one is making that X-J profit. The counter is, of course, to buy up all of the Industrialtard's goods at J and sell them at X, so he gets the J profit and you get the X-J profit. In the real world, though, you can't buy all of his goods before the consumers get at them, so some of the consumer demand has been satisfied at the J price, thus lowering the average and price X will look like it is "above average".
Assuming supply > demand: 0.01 ISK wars lead to J prices because there will always be that trade order up. So the Industrialtard will still make 1000 times the units a region can sell in a day and put it at J prices, rather than artificially limiting supply to create an X price as mentioned before, and sell his excess stock at Jita itself at J prices to make J * quantity capital back faster.
Hopefully, this makes sense.
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Zeffan Barzag
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:17:00 -
[53]
Trading is PvP - just not with ships...someone is laughing...
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Buzz Hulbreech
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Posted - 2011.04.13 11:40:00 -
[54]
Ahh when gamers and accountants collide, what fun! The essential problem accountants/marketeers/excel-warriors have with eve is they forget it is not "only a game", but a game you can play totally or partially AFK, so yes, my time is free, I'm watching TV clicking "Install job" occasionally.
The fact that I sell my gear instantly to you, who has to spend hours mucking about in tedious .01 isk wars, I dread the kind of mind that finds that in the least bit entertaining. Most accountants I know are dull as dishwater, 0.01 iskers take dullness to a whole new level.
TL;DR version: Capitalists who think EvE is real make me lol, "elite traderz" crying over "my time is free guys" is icing on the cake.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.13 16:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Zeffan Barzag Trading is PvP - just not with ships...someone is laughing...
Market PvP is as srsbsns as internet spaceships. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Caroline Lust
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Posted - 2011.04.14 07:39:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Khory Thunderstar "Are some industrialists born stupid?"
Most people are born stupid
Hahaha. Indeed.
You are wrong! Most people are born intelligent with an amazing capacity to absorb new things. It's prejudice that makes them stupid (among others).
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ORLICZ
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Posted - 2011.04.15 07:52:00 -
[57]
i am curious why people do manufacture, moon mining and sell products below cost of production
its the same if i go for lvl4 missnion with noob ship, then i lose my noob shib and try again ;]
i understand that is hard to see how dump it is ;] but maby fun/? the even read forums?:P
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.15 11:07:00 -
[58]
Everyone is born stupid, surely. I mean, those midgets can't even wipe their own arse. Anyway, where were we? ----------------------------------------
Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with. |
Sinti Vailatti
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.16 05:22:00 -
[59]
"Are some industrialists born stupid?"
Donald Trump.
'Nuff said. :)
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heheheh
Phoenix Club
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Posted - 2011.04.16 14:26:00 -
[60]
Edited by: heheheh on 16/04/2011 14:26:10
Originally by: Buzz Hulbreech
The fact that I sell my gear instantly to you, who has to spend hours mucking about in tedious .01 isk wars, I dread the kind of mind that finds that in the least bit entertaining. Most accountants I know are dull as dishwater, 0.01 iskers take dullness to a whole new level.
QFT If you want to spend all day looking at numbers for an extra 10 million ISK a day then more power to you, thats not my style, i sell all my loots to buy orders instantly for a nice profit. I play Eve for fun and sitting at a market hub all day checking prices on several characters is more like work for me than it is play. You can call me stupid and laugh all you want but be aware i am also laughing at the boring people that play a game to accumulate monopoly money.
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