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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:34:00 -
[1]
Hey CCP, would you consider offering it for 200 x PLEX ? Or, you know, ~3500 USD/EUR.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Tom Fulleride
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:36:00 -
[2]
I am guessing you hit the 200 Plex mark in game. Offering lifetime subscriptions would appear to me as a money grab by CCP before a planned closing of the game. :: does not want ::
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:36:00 -
[3]
Posting in a stealth buff of Money->ISK conversion thread.
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Aeronwen Carys
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:38:00 -
[4]
Not sure if serious. Wondering if I am posting in an AkitaT troll thread? See, that feels wrong saying that. Has miilla somehow hacked Akita's account? If not, and is serious, why would you want a lifetime sub? And who is to determine exaclty what a lifetime is?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 16:44:28
Originally by: Tom Fulleride I am guessing you hit the 200 Plex mark in game.
More like over 1000 if I liquidate everything and get all my loans back.
Quote: Offering lifetime subscriptions would appear to me as a money grab by CCP before a planned closing of the game. :: does not want ::
If they were offering it at 250 to 350 USD/EUR (or 14 to 20 x PLEX), or something in that ballpark, maybe 3 year's worth of sub tops... then yeah, I'd consider it a money grab for sure too. But not at 10-20 year's worth of sub.
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys why would you want a lifetime sub?
I suppose I could just buy and apply 200x PLEX and call it almost as good as a lifetime sub, but, meh, not the same. The advantage(s) ? CCP gets a truckload of guaranteed funding NOW they can use (or a huge liability at least partially written off in the books). I get the guarantee that I can't lose my account even if I go broke both in RL and ingame for any reason.
Quote: And who is to determine exaclty what a lifetime is?
That's easy. EVE's lifetime or player lifetime, whichever's shorter. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Holy One
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:44:00 -
[6]
most guys I know, myself included, paid ccp about a year's worth of subs before earning enough isk from relatively not a lot of effort to buy plex. so if you consider ccp gets about ú180 out of us before we drop off their invoicing system, they need either a lot of new players or a lot of people buying plex to keep the revenue coming in no? so offering a lifetime sub would be worse for them long term, as we'd no longer need to buy plex, to create demand for plex and so on.
BBQ makes me hungry for more... |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mr LaForge Posting in a stealth buff of Money->ISK conversion thread.
Quoting a troll who fails at making ISKs as much as he fails at making real money. --
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:48:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 16:49:37
Originally by: Holy One offering a lifetime sub would be worse for them long term
Yes, theoretically, under perfect circumstances... and no, practically, given the current most likely situation.
3500 USD/EUR put in the bank at 4% interest rate per year equals 140 USD/EUR, more than one year's worth of sub. CCP still has outstanding debts (or so the financial papers they published a few years ago seemed to indicate), which almost with no doubt need to be paid off at interest rates higher than 4% per year. Financially speaking, it would make more sense for CCP to offer a lifetime sub at this particular price rather than charge you on a yearly basis.
The only question is, would anybody want it at THAT price ? I know I would. But who else ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:49:00 -
[9]
maybe it's not a troll but a market manipulation thread :) ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Herrring
Amarr National Quality Breaker
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Raid'En Edited by: Raid''En on 28/03/2011 16:58:04 maybe it's not a troll but a market manipulation thread :)
edit :
Originally by: Akita T
The only question is, would anybody want it at THAT price ? I know I would. But who else ?
200 plexes means more than 16 years of sub... seems ridiculous to me. you really think the game will still be here in 16 years ?! o_O
and anyway, imagine the money you would be making in 16 years... think about what you were earning when you began and what you earn now. then think about the same for the future. don't seems a very inetresting investissement to me. moreover plex price may collapse a lot on long term (of course it can also raise a lot :p) a lifetime sub is interesting when it's less expensive than the real cost. so if 16 years is interesting your need... well something like 20 years at least...
at 4-5 year worth of plexes (50-60 plexes) i would think about it, and good chance i'll take it. but 200 plexes... no way.
you're way too rich Akita_T to think as 200 plexes as nothing :P
Well, unless akita is planning on cashing out the isk for rl money, where are you gonna use all that isk anyway?
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Jon Taggart
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:07:00 -
[11]
I wouldn't mind a lifetime sub, but I'm far too cheap to shell out money for one . I feel bad for the people who bought lifetime subs for Lord of the Rings Online only to see it go free to play as time passed. Champions Online was getting a lot of flak offering lifetime subs before the game was even out, but that's a different bag altogether.
I'm trying to contemplate what possible long term effects this could have on PLEX pricing and availability, which I'm sure you already have figured out anyway. Most people would still purchase month-to-month as normal I'm sure, but I wonder if CCP would eventually sell PLEX bundle packs with a bulk discount.
What are your thoughts? And mind throwing a few PLEX my way?
I'm not an alt |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Raid'En you're way too rich Akita_T to think as 200 plexes as nothing :P
Not nearly rich enough There's plenty even richer
Originally by: Herrring Well, unless akita is planning on cashing out the isk for rl money, where are you gonna use all that isk anyway?
Bingo. Lifetime sub = me likey _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:45:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Herrring Well, unless akita is planning on cashing out the isk for rl money, where are you gonna use all that isk anyway?
what ? you mean rmt ? o_O ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:54:00 -
[14]
I was going to say something, but then I decided not to. That is all.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akita T Hey CCP, would you consider offering it for 200 x PLEX ? Or, you know, ~3500 USD/EUR.
Uhuh.
The reason PLEX got changed to a REAL in-game item was......
Less merchant fees as no structural "debt" - well not once you make it imaginary
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 17:58:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 18:02:18
Originally by: Chribba I was going to say something, but then I decided not to.
So how many PLEX would you pay for a lifetime sub ?
Originally by: Othran The reason PLEX got changed to a REAL in-game item was less merchant fees as no structural "debt" - well not once you make it imaginary
Not quite. As long as PLEX remains unapplied to an account, it's still a liability in CCP's books.
There are significant enough differences between: a) one single account with 100 PLEX applied to it b) one single account with 100 PLEX in hangar c) 100 accounts with 1 PLEX applied to each d) 100 accounts with 1 PLEX in each hangar _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Darwpromtheus
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:03:00 -
[17]
Over 9000
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Darwpromtheus Over 9000
Considering it's highly unlikely a person will live to play more than, say, 75 years, the upper limit would be around 900 PLEX. It would make no sense for any player to pay that much up front though. In fact, even 35 years is stretching it rather badly, so let's call it 400 PLEX absolute maximum. Considering CCP is certain to remain in business for a long period of time, the lower limit for them to want to offer it is wherever the breakeven with their bank loans occurs. Say they have to pay 10% yearly interest on their debts and they collect ~130 USD/EUR per year from people that would want to take the lifetime offer, the lower limit would be around 1300 USD/EUR, or around 75 PLEX.
So, a lifetime sub can not ever be offered for a price below the equivalent of 75 PLEX, and it would make no sense to cost over 400 PLEX. IF you would be intereted in getting one, how much would you be willing to pay for it, in between those numbers ?
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:13:00 -
[19]
a lifetime of eve... are you kidding?
As if it's not bad enough that CCP still has graphics from 2003 this would completely kill development. Why upgrade when the money is already paid for, this would KILL eve online development.
Think about it some more.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: cyndrogen Why upgrade when the money is already paid for, this would KILL eve online development. Think about it some more.
YOU think about it some more. There's over 300k subscribers right now. Do you think more than 3000 would ever get the lifetime sub at a cost of even just 100 PLEX ? It's a drop in a bucket, the overwhelming vast majority of people would still pay on a monthly basis. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: cyndrogen Why upgrade when the money is already paid for, this would KILL eve online development. Think about it some more.
YOU think about it some more. There's over 300k subscribers right now. Do you think more than 3000 would ever get the lifetime sub at a cost of even just 100 PLEX ? It's a drop in a bucket, the overwhelming vast majority of people would still pay on a monthly basis.
300k subscribers, are you serious?
Let me ask you this, how many alts do you pay for? Think you're the only person with alts?
That number is inflated because MOST players in eve have 2 accounts or more.
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Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:20:00 -
[22]
I think around 1,000 USD or 60 plex would be acceptable. Average player sticking around for 1 year if i recall one of the statistics from an old QEN article. Getting 5 years worth of income would be ideal. At least with Eve you know you wouldn't be shafted like those poor kids who paid for a lifetime sub on Champions Online, and then it went F2P barely a year later.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: cyndrogen over 300k subscribers, are you serious?
Ok, correction, over 300k paid-for accounts, guaranteed to exist. In terms of "lifetime sub" cost point issues, only number of accounts matters, how many people those might mean is irrelevant.
Quote: That number is inflated because MOST players in eve have 2 accounts or more.
Actually, only between 20% and 25% of players have more than one account, according to CCP data released in the past (they don't know absolutely for sure either, they haven't bothered digging deep enough to get more precise numbers). It just SEEMS almost everybody has more than one account, that is easily explained : people that tend to have more than one account are those people that log in more often and stay online longer. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: cyndrogen on 28/03/2011 18:43:07
So let's say 75,000 accounts sign up for a lifetime. (25% of user base, based on your numbers)
at 14.95 X 200 plex = 2990, lets round it off to 3k.
75,000 x 3000 = 225 million USD.
That would bring more development to the game and basically fuel their next gen graphics engine.
Ok I see where you're going with this, long term those players get better development because CCP can hire better artists and help develop faster to keep up with current technology.
Eve online is definitely in trouble and DUST needs to outperform in market saturated with FPS games. Problem with shooters is their generally low lifespan.
I see what you did there. Ok, I support your idea. As long as CCP doesn't pull a goon tactic takes your lifetime and retires.
:)
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mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:49:00 -
[25]
Edited by: mechtech on 28/03/2011 18:50:38 I'd take them up on the offer (not for 200 plex, maybe for 50-100), although I doubt I could afford a lifetime sub on 8 accounts (some to think of it, maybe so )
CCP won't ever offer it because it would lock them into a monthly subscription model for payments. Who knows what the MMO landscape will look like in 10 years... probably even more micro-transactions.
More reasonable would a 100 plex 1 time charge in exchange for 1 plex per month as long as the game is running... like social security eve style
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BlackSparrowHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.28 18:58:00 -
[26]
Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 28/03/2011 18:58:29
Originally by: cyndrogen
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: cyndrogen Why upgrade when the money is already paid for, this would KILL eve online development. Think about it some more.
YOU think about it some more.
There's over 300k subscribers right now.
Do you think more than 3000 would ever get the lifetime sub at a cost of even just 100 PLEX ?
It's a drop in a bucket, the overwhelming vast majority of people would still pay on a monthly basis.
300k subscribers, are you serious?
Let me ask you this, how many alts do you pay for?
Think you're the only person with alts?
That number is inflated because MOST players in eve have 2 accounts or more.
You're also forgetting that not all 300k accounts are active ;) Infact the majority of that 300k accounts are inactive (i'd guesstimate ~200k.) The remainder are accounts that get logged on on odd ocassion for skill update, alts and main, which averages out to 60k a night peak time over aperiod of amonth.....hmm laid out like that it doesn't sound like much come to think of it.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk which averages out to 60k a night peak time over aperiod of amonth.....
hum, guy you understand that if there's 60k people at peak time it means there's others people at other time at the day, and so way more than 60k different accounts logged by day, right ?
back to subject ; for 50-100 plexes i would consider it. however that's way too expensive to use this for more than 1 account may be more interesting for them to make cheaper price to have way more people taking it.
or why not a system where the price depend on when you created your account ? like 2003 players pay less for lifetime than 2009 players ? (ps : i'm not 2003 at all :p) ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk You're also forgetting that not all 300k accounts are active ;) Infact the majority of that 300k accounts are inactive (i'd guesstimate ~200k.)
Bullcrap.
The numbers made public by CCP are for active, paid-for accounts. The QEN usually has them in graph form. We're actually closer to 350k active accounts than 300k.
Server usercount stats You can eyeball that at around 30k accounts online on average at a minimum, probably higher. There's not quite 24 hours of online time, but close enough. If all of the above numbers are correct, that means that the average EVE player spends around 2 hours per day on average logged in. 2 hours per day does not sound low at all if you ALSO consider the fact that the average INCLUDES all the people that log in just to change skills. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Akita T 3500 USD/EUR put in the bank at 4% interest rate per year equals 140 USD/EUR, more than one year's worth of sub.
Which bank is giving that much interest? And why would anyone, that knows how money works, put it in a bank in the first place? No, CCP would invest it at an average of 12% and turn it into a real chunk of change.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Captain Muscles
Caldari Clan Farthammer
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 28/03/2011 18:58:29You're also forgetting that not all 300k accounts are active ;) Infact the majority of that 300k accounts are inactive (i'd guesstimate ~200k.) The remainder are accounts that get logged on on odd ocassion for skill update, alts and main, which averages out to 60k a night peak time over aperiod of amonth.....hmm laid out like that it doesn't sound like much come to think of it.
I'm confused. How can two thirds of the active accounts be inactive? What's this strange feeling... Why am I disappea
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Point of No Return Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:18:00 -
[31]
No, I like having the ability to pull the plug on a month to month basis.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:21:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 19:23:39
Originally by: Kijo Rikki No, I like having the ability to pull the plug on a month to month basis.
Then why bother posting here ? Nobody's forcing any lifetime subs on anybody, they're optional. They're so optional, they don't even exist yet.
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Akita T 3500 USD/EUR put in the bank at 4% interest rate per year equals 140 USD/EUR, more than one year's worth of sub.
Which bank is giving that much interest? And why would anyone, that knows how money works, put it in a bank in the first place? No, CCP would invest it at an average of 12% and turn it into a real chunk of change.
Read the sentence below the one you quoted, in the place you quoted it from. They OWE money to banks (or, at least, they used to owe a lot not that long ago, and I doubt it's been paid back in full already). That changes a lot of things, especially since we have no idea how high their loan repayment interest rates are. I was guesstimating a lowball 10% there.
Also, this bank over here in Romania has several types of deposits, and one of the special offer EUR ones (the 111 day deposit) is at a 4% yearly interest rate for sums starting at 250 EUR for citizens or 1k EUR for businesses, and also another "more regular" type of deposit at 4% (but only for sums over 100k EUR, if you sick in less, you get less). Several other Romanian banks offer similar interest rates for deposits in foreign currencies.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:23:00 -
[33]
Lifetime sub is not a bad idea, but one problem i see is that it is very hard to deliver on a promise of servers being live during one's lifetime, which can lead to a lot of potential legal action against CCP if somethings go wrong and they have to shut down EVE lets say 20 years from now. I remember being so pumped waiting for Hellgate: London and they got so many people into buying lifetime sub (150$ if i remember correctly) and then the whole thing crashed and servers closed in short order. I was very glad i didn't rush into buying lifetime sub that time. But i guess with some TOS adjustments this could be done.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Neoexecutor a lot of potential legal action against CCP if somethings go wrong[...]But i guess with some TOS adjustments this could be done.
The EULA/TOS already covers that. If you are to respect them, CCP is never liable for more than one month's sub price (or was it 3 months?) so even if they close the servers down the most they'd have to pay back is negligible compared to how much they received. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:28:00 -
[35]
200 plexes? Man, at that point... I don't even know.
I think I'd rather just keep paying my monthly 350m stipend than save up that much. Goodness.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Teranul 200 plexes? Man, at that point... I don't even know. I think I'd rather just keep paying my monthly 350m stipend than save up that much. Goodness.
~75 bil ISK at the current PLEX prices.
A Titan. A couple of supercarriers. One decent T2 BPO. A quarter of a state issue ship.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:32:00 -
[37]
Edited by: cyndrogen on 28/03/2011 19:36:23
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk You're also forgetting that not all 300k accounts are active ;) Infact the majority of that 300k accounts are inactive (i'd guesstimate ~200k.)
Bullcrap.
The numbers made public by CCP are for active, paid-for accounts. The QEN usually has them in graph form. We're actually closer to 350k active accounts than 300k.
Server usercount stats You can eyeball that at around 30k accounts online on average at a minimum, probably higher. There's not quite 24 hours of online time, but close enough. If all of the above numbers are correct, that means that the average EVE player spends around 2 hours per day on average logged in. 2 hours per day does not sound low at all if you ALSO consider the fact that the average INCLUDES all the people that log in just to change skills.
The total number of players online is usuallt 25 - 45k (as high as 56k on weekends) on TQ, and around 120 accounts on singularity. Not sure about other server stats.
Even at 25k CCP would make around 75 million with Akita's plan. However his plan is a short term strategy, which is exactly what the developers might need to help launch DUST and upgrade to EVE 2.0
with 75 million flowing into the company in ONE year, it pays for 11 years worth of subscriptions, and again my numbers are low, assuming that on average you have 35k players.
35k * 14.95 a month = 523k
523 * 12 months = 6.3 million roughly per year.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:34:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 19:35:22
I don't get it, why do you equate average number of people online with the number of lifetime subs potentially sold ? I seriously doubt more than 1% of the population (i.e. 3k-ish) would be willing to pay 200 PLEX (or equivalent cash) for it. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:38:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 19:35:22
I don't get it, why do you equate average number of people online with the number of lifetime subs potentially sold ? I seriously doubt more than 1% of the population (i.e. 3k-ish) would be willing to pay 200 PLEX (or equivalent cash) for it.
1% is not worth a lifetime sub.
10% would be worth it.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:49:00 -
[40]
I am all for it as long as it is insane amount like 500 plex or so.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:52:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 19:54:17
Originally by: cyndrogen 1% is not worth a lifetime sub. 10% would be worth it.
Even 3k people at 200 PLEX each is still ~10.5 mil, which is hardly negligible. Besides, it's a matter of per-account numbers anyway. It's either worth it for CCP for any single one of them, or it's not worth it at all. The percentage of the population adopting this is almost irrelevant, the only exception would be if CCP could raise more money from it than they need to pay off all their bank loan debts, which is HIGHLY UNLIKELY at anywhere above "worth it per individual" PLEX cost (in which case it would be pointless anyway).
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 I am all for it as long as it is insane amount like 500 plex or so.
200 is already an almost ridiculously high number. That's 16 years and 8 months of sub. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:54:00 -
[42]
Edited by: cyndrogen on 28/03/2011 19:54:58
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 19:52:54
Originally by: cyndrogen 1% is not worth a lifetime sub. 10% would be worth it.
Even 3k people at 200 PLEX each is still ~10.5 mil, which is hardly negligible. Besides, it's a matter of per-account numbers anyway. It's either worth it for CCP for any single one of them, or it's not worth it at all. The percentage of the population adopting this is almost irrelevant, the only exception would be if CCP could raise more money from it than they need to pay off all their bank loan debts.
CCP makes that amount in a year anyway, so I don't see how 10.5 million will change anything for the company, except lower their profit margins the following year due to no cash flow from accounts which are still playing on their servers.
How does that help CCP?
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BlackSparrowHawk
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:59:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk You're also forgetting that not all 300k accounts are active ;) Infact the majority of that 300k accounts are inactive (i'd guesstimate ~200k.)
Bullcrap.
The numbers made public by CCP are for active, paid-for accounts.
The QEN usually has them in graph form.
We're actually closer to 350k active accounts than 300k.
Server usercount stats
You can eyeball that at around 30k accounts online on average at a minimum, probably higher.
There's not quite 24 hours of online time, but close enough.
If all of the above numbers are correct, that means that the average EVE player spends around 2 hours per day on average logged in.
2 hours per day does not sound low at all if you ALSO consider the fact that the average INCLUDES all the people that log in just to change skills.
Since i'm unable to check the QEN at the moment let me clarify something. If total active accounts is 300k then whats the total account figure (by that i mean trials that never subbed or accounts that subbed for a few months then stopped)
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 19:59:00 -
[44]
Edited by: cyndrogen on 28/03/2011 20:03:29 Edited by: cyndrogen on 28/03/2011 20:02:39
Honestly I think that a better way to "squeeze" additional revenue would be to start selling in game items, setup goals and prizes similar to hulkageddon but in a way that promotes cooperation between players.
They have a store with all kinds of goods, why not offer them up for a prize and all it costs to enter is 100,000,000 ISK to win a prize worth lots more.
Hell I would even offer up competitions , gladiatorial style, for a prize of a T2 bpo, now you would see real interest in actually spending 100m to win something worth billions.
It;s all about incentive, you can't just ask people to pay for a lifetime subscription without offering some value to the players.
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Kijo Rikki
Caldari Point of No Return Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:03:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 19:23:39
Originally by: Kijo Rikki No, I like having the ability to pull the plug on a month to month basis.
Then why bother posting here ? Nobody's forcing any lifetime subs on anybody, they're optional. They're so optional, they don't even exist yet.
Just giving you my opinion, that's what forums are for.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:04:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 20:06:05
Originally by: Kijo Rikki Just giving you my opinion, that's what forums are for.
Fair enough.
Originally by: cyndrogen CCP makes that amount in a year anyway, so I don't see how 10.5 million will change anything for the company, except lower their profit margins the following year due to no cash flow from accounts which are still playing on their servers. How does that help CCP?
Are you really this dense or are you just trolling ? Are you an alt of Miilla perhaps ? If I wouldn't have explained it twice already I would understand your confusion, but, damn ! T H E . O F F E R . I S . E I T H E R . P R O F I T A B L E . F O R . C C P . F R O M . A N Y . O N E . I N D I V I D U A L . O R . N O T . A T . A L L. If you pay CCP a sum of 3500 USD now (the equivalent of 200 PLEX), and they already need to pay a 10% interest on their bank loans, they effectively save 350 USD per year in loan payments, subtract the 130 USD they would have gotten from you per year, and they walk off with a 220 USD per year better bottom line for as long as they still have to pay off any of that debt to the bank. In fact, if you pay them just 1300 USD now, for as long as they still have any of that 10% bank loan to pay off, they're pretty much in the same spot bottom-line-wise.
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk Since i'm unable to check the QEN at the moment let me clarify something. If total active accounts is 300k then whats the total account figure (by that i mean trials that never subbed or accounts that subbed for a few months then stopped)
Damn if I know. Well over 1 million, most likely. Possibly even 2 million. They never published that data. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:05:00 -
[47]
I guess the only lifetime subscription offers made these days are about games even the publishers think they will not be around for a long time.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:15:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 20:21:01
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon I guess the only lifetime subscription offers made these days are about games even the publishers think they will not be around for a long time.
Yeah, but THOSE lifetime subs cost 199 USD, not 3500 USD When they charge a lifetime sub the equivalent of 2 gameplay years or so, the developers don't really expect to stay in business longer (or even that much), so yeah, it's obvious it's a money grab. But when you charge the equivalent of 10++ years and you do it begrudgingly at the request of your players... now that's a game you know the devs are fairly sure will last quite a long time. Huge difference.
P.S. Plus, imagine the PUBLICITY that CCP//EVE would get for such a ludicrous offer. I can almost see the headlines... "Indy dev studio CCP confident enough in their long-term success that they only offer lifetime subs at the incredibly high price of 3000 dollars!"
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:40:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 20:09:02
Originally by: Kijo Rikki Just giving you my opinion, that's what forums are for.
Fair enough.
Originally by: cyndrogen CCP makes that amount in a year anyway, so I don't see how 10.5 million will change anything for the company, except lower their profit margins the following year due to no cash flow from accounts which are still playing on their servers. How does that help CCP?
Are you really this dense or are you just trolling ? Are you an alt of Miilla perhaps ? If I wouldn't have explained it twice already I would understand your confusion, but, damn ! T H E . O F F E R . I S . E I T H E R . P R O F I T A B L E . F O R . C C P . F R O M . A N Y . O N E . I N D I V I D U A L . O R . N O T . A T . A L L. If you pay CCP a sum of 3500 USD now (the equivalent of 200 PLEX), and they already need to pay a 10% interest on their bank loans, they effectively save 350 USD per year in loan payments, subtract the 130 USD they would have gotten from you per year, and they walk off with a 220 USD per year better bottom line for as long as they still have to pay off any of that debt to the bank. In fact, if you pay them just 1300 USD now, for as long as they still have any of that 10% bank loan to pay off, they're pretty much in the same spot bottom-line-wise.
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk Since i'm unable to check the QEN at the moment let me clarify something. If total active accounts is 300k then whats the total account figure (by that i mean trials that never subbed or accounts that subbed for a few months then stopped)
Damn if I know. Well over 1 million, most likely. Possibly even 2 million. They never published that data.
Originally by: cyndrogen It's all about incentive, you can't just ask people to pay for a lifetime subscription without offering some value to the players.
As long as it's worth it for CCP (they get more than just breaking even), it doesn't matter that they offer absolutely nothing extra except game access. TO ME, a lifetime sub is well worth 200 PLEX. To others, it may be worth more, it may be worth less.
Akita quit barking, you still have not answered my question. How does your proposal bring any value to EVE online or the gamer? Also, take note I'm referring to eve online the game NOT CCP the company.
You are asking for money, a lot of money, from the player base and the best you can come up with is it will pay off a loan for CCP faster?
Good luck!
The player base is NOT a charity, we are customers.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:50:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 20:52:00
Originally by: cyndrogen Akita quit barking, you still have not answered my question. How does your proposal bring any value to EVE online or the gamer? Also, take note I'm referring to eve online the game NOT CCP the company. You are asking for money, a lot of money, from the player base and the best you can come up with is it will pay off a loan for CCP faster? Good luck! The player base is NOT a charity, we are customers.
Value to the game ? Are you crazy ? What's that got to do with anything ? How could a subscription offer EVER bring any value to the GAME itself ? It always brings value either to the customer, to the company, or both customer and company. But never TO THE GAME. Does the "power of two" offer that happens for half a year every year bring any value to the game ? I challenge you to show me how it does. A subscription offer is not SUPPOSED to bring anything to the game.
There's two options for CCP: * price too low - not worth bothering ; happens at around 75x PLEX, give or take 25. * price over minimum - go go go bring Sajuukoffer to bear !!!
There's two options for a player: * price too high - not worth bothering ; varies WILDLY from person to person, anywhere between 24 and 360 PLEX is not unexpected * price below that - GIMME !!!
As long as price is not too low for CCP and not too high for the INDIVIDUAL customer that purchases that sub, BOTH parties get what they want from that. Not a charity, a business transaction, and a mutually beneficial one at that.
Depending on how high the price will be set, there might be next to takers, or a lot of takers. Or did you miss the part where this is completely optional ? Nobody's forcing you to use the offer if you don't like the price.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:58:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 20:52:00
Originally by: cyndrogen Akita quit barking, you still have not answered my question. How does your proposal bring any value to EVE online or the gamer? Also, take note I'm referring to eve online the game NOT CCP the company. You are asking for money, a lot of money, from the player base and the best you can come up with is it will pay off a loan for CCP faster? Good luck! The player base is NOT a charity, we are customers.
Value to the game ? Are you crazy ? What's that got to do with anything ? How could a subscription offer EVER bring any value to the GAME itself ? It always brings value either to the customer, to the company, or both customer and company. But never TO THE GAME. Does the "power of two" offer that happens for half a year every year bring any value to the game ? I challenge you to show me how it does. A subscription offer is not SUPPOSED to bring anything to the game.
There's two options for CCP: * price too low - not worth bothering ; happens at around 75x PLEX, give or take 25. * price over minimum - go go go bring Sajuukoffer to bear !!!
There's two options for a player: * price too high - not worth bothering ; varies WILDLY from person to person, anywhere between 24 and 360 PLEX is not unexpected * price below that - GIMME !!!
As long as price is not too low for CCP and not too high for the INDIVIDUAL customer that purchases that sub, BOTH parties get what they want from that. Not a charity, a business transaction, and a mutually beneficial one at that.
Depending on how high the price will be set, there might be next to takers, or a lot of takers. Or did you miss the part where this is completely optional ? Nobody's forcing you to use the offer if you don't like the price.
LOL, are you always this pleasant? No I'm not crazy I think you might be if you think anyone is willing to spend 3k or more on a game. Maybe I'm just not a hard core eve junkie but choosing to invest in a company that has yet to reveal a 10 year plan is just pure blind faith.
Maybe if CCP had a 10 year strategy I would invest 3k but to just fork over a **** load of cash just as an option is, well childish.
Where is your head Akita in space? Time to get out of that pod and start focusing the value of your cash in the real world.
3k for a game, you're INSANE!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:03:00 -
[52]
Originally by: cyndrogen LOL, are you always this pleasant?
Only when annoyed.
Quote: No I'm not crazy I think you might be if you think anyone is willing to spend 3k or more on a game.
REALITY proves you wrong. There are plenty of people who have spent more than that on EVE already. And some of them were banned for it.
Quote: Where is your head Akita in space? Time to get out of that pod and start focusing the value of your cash in the real world.
Last time I checked, I am not allowed to exchange ISK for real-life money, not if I want to keep playing anyway. However, I am allowed to exchange ISK for PLEX to my heart's content. So tell me, oh wise one, what am I going to spend my ISK on ?
Quote: 3k for a game, you're INSANE!
Insane would be if CCP didn't take this opportunity _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: cyndrogen LOL, are you always this pleasant?
Only when annoyed.
Quote: No I'm not crazy I think you might be if you think anyone is willing to spend 3k or more on a game.
REALITY proves you wrong. There are plenty of people who have spent more than that on EVE already. And some of them were banned for it.
Quote: Where is your head Akita in space? Time to get out of that pod and start focusing the value of your cash in the real world.
Last time I checked, I am not allowed to exchange ISK for real-life money, not if I want to keep playing anyway. However, I am allowed to exchange ISK for PLEX to my heart's content. So tell me, oh wise one, what am I going to spend my ISK on ?
Quote: 3k for a game, you're INSANE!
Insane would be if CCP didn't take this opportunity
I will give you credit you are very passionate about eve online but seriously, you seem like a really bright guy and I hope you do something with that brain other then just play an MMO. CCP should hire you to promote and do marketing. You have good ideas you just need to focus that passion.
Sorry if I annoyed you really not my intention.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:06:00 -
[54]
The topic is good, its execution sucks.
A life-time subscription would cost as much as CCP says it costs. The question of how much I would be willing to pay for it does not arise to me. I really do not see how I could be given this choice when it comes to CCP's finances. I'd rather have questions like, can I have a lifetime of PepsiMAX and PizzaHut with it?!
Or include each lifetime subscription with a pair of old, worn socks of any CCP employee to make it a memorable moment.
So, yeah, would be cool to have the option whatever the price. Money, dignity, virginity ... some will give anything for it. --
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:21:00 -
[55]
Originally by: cyndrogen I will give you credit you are very passionate about eve online but seriously, you seem like a really bright guy and I hope you do something with that brain other then just play an MMO. CCP should hire you to promote and do marketing. You have good ideas you just need to focus that passion. Sorry if I annoyed you really not my intention.
Eh, no problem Right now I'm on medical downtime, so not much to do, hence, heavy forum usage. Also, easily irritable (more than usual, that is).
Originally by: Whitehound A life-time subscription would cost as much as CCP says it costs. The question of how much I would be willing to pay for it does not arise to me.[...]So, yeah, would be cool to have the option whatever the price. Money, dignity, virginity ... some will give anything for it.
CCP won't be pulling the numbers out of their ass when they decide a pricetag for it, if they ever do it. They would do market research first if they thought they could end up financially better off, and see if it might actually happen. Consider this market research. Your opinion on how much you would actually be willing to pay matters to some small degree.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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jyppy
Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:32:00 -
[56]
Have to say i quite like this idea
Anyway for the purposes of research for CCP ()I'll say;
120 PLEX
10 years worth seems like a nice figure, though if it was set at 200 it would energise me to earn more iskies in-game - I've got plenty atm with nothing much to spend it, a new target would be nice, and i would re-activate my trade alt ofc
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:32:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Akita T ... Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk Since i'm unable to check the QEN at the moment let me clarify something. If total active accounts is 300k then whats the total account figure (by that i mean trials that never subbed or accounts that subbed for a few months then stopped)
Damn if I know. Well over 1 million, most likely. Possibly even 2 million. They never published that data. ...
if user_id assumed to be sequential count of all created accounts, total accounts are probably over 6 million. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:35:00 -
[58]
Added stupid random site poll : http://poll.pollcode.com/JLg
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:49:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: cyndrogen I will give you credit you are very passionate about eve online but seriously, you seem like a really bright guy and I hope you do something with that brain other then just play an MMO. CCP should hire you to promote and do marketing. You have good ideas you just need to focus that passion. Sorry if I annoyed you really not my intention.
Eh, no problem Right now I'm on medical downtime, so not much to do, hence, heavy forum usage. Also, easily irritable (more than usual, that is).
You OK? When you say on "medical downtime" do you mean you're off meds or you're just not working?
I'm usually irritable this time of year due to allergies...
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:55:00 -
[60]
Just out of curiosity, and you can mail me directly if you don't wish to post publicly in the forums, but how much money, real money not in game ISK or plex have you spent on eve online?
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.28 21:57:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Whitehound on 28/03/2011 21:57:24
Originally by: Akita T CCP won't be pulling the numbers out of their ass when they decide a pricetag for it, if they ever do it. They would do market research first if they thought they could end up financially better off, and see if it might actually happen. Consider this market research. Your opinion on how much you would actually be willing to pay matters to some small degree.
No. CCP listens to reason, but not opinion.
A good reason not to give out life-time subscriptions is to have your customers re-evaluate your product on a regular basis. Customers can decide at each payment if they want to keep playing the game or if they want to quit. You then get a good idea how well you are doing by looking at the number of paying customers that you have.
Give out life-time subscriptions and you will get a growing base of players who may think they now own CCP and EVE Online (=> life-time subs being "uber e-peens") and where it is harder to say if you are developing your game in a direction that is fit for the future and future generation of players. You do not want to drag an ever increasing number of life-time subscribers with you who do nothing but complain about the old times and are lacking the financial incentive to emo-rage-quit.
But is it impossible to introduce life-time subscriptions? No. --
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:22:00 -
[62]
Originally by: cyndrogen You OK? When you say on "medical downtime" do you mean you're off meds or you're just not working?
Post-surgery not-working break. Story in OOPE.
Originally by: cyndrogen Just out of curiosity, and you can mail me directly if you don't wish to post publicly in the forums, but how much money, real money not in game ISK or plex have you spent on eve online?
According to my My Account + Subscription Details page, $447.10 (2x1Y, 1x6M, 2x3M, 1x1M plus the initial one month with a 19.95 charge), and I've been around ~5 years. PLEX (and before that, GTC) FTW. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Effortless Breeze
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2011.03.28 22:58:00 -
[63]
I'm not entirely sure, if the pricepoint was lower (84-120 PLEX )
I think it would be too unrealistic to expect the game to be at a competitive place for the next +10 years. I honestly believe people will completely max out their characters well before then. Since Empyrean Age I've counted ~24,324,000 skillpoints (Orca, Noctis, PI, T3 construction, Subsystems/T3 skills). Removing the 5,125,000 (?) skillpoints from learning means you have a total of ~19.2 million new skillpoints in just under 4 years.
Its one thing to tell a new player they can compete with a 100 million skillpoint character, can you imagine telling them they can compete with somebody who hasn't trained a skill in 2 years ? .... or am I just dreaming? |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:08:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/03/2011 23:08:26
Originally by: Effortless Breeze I'm not entirely sure, if the pricepoint was lower (84-120 PLEX )
Vote on the poll then.
Originally by: Effortless Breeze Its one thing to tell a new player they can compete with a 100 million skillpoint character, can you imagine telling them they can compete with somebody who hasn't trained a skill in 2 years ?
First off, to max out all skills in EVE right now, you'd need something like, umm, what, 20 years ? And that's assuming CCP doesn't introduce new skills. Second, in any particular area, past a certain SP total specific to that gameplay type, it really doesn't matter how much total SP you have. If total SP would matter that much, nobody would bother making alts for a zillion different things. In fact, there are quite a few drawbacks to having a very high SP character, first and foremost being clone cost. Also, there is no need for any specific player to compete directly with just one other specific player - like in real-life (and unlike the movies), having an army of adequately trained friends usually beats having a handful of uber-elites in the majority of fields you could imagine competing in. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Jon Taggart
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:11:00 -
[65]
This is a fun thread. I do enjoy "what if" discussions like this .
I'm not an alt |
0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:27:00 -
[66]
So, we learnt in this thread that Akita T has over 300 billion isk. One does not make that much isk with missions. And not with mining, since it would take more than a year of 24/7 mining. So how did you make so much isk, Akita T ? Did you scam in Jita or run away with an alliance capital fleet ? I don't think it's possible to make so much isk the hones way ...
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OverLord Minion
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:30:00 -
[67]
Edited by: OverLord Minion on 28/03/2011 23:32:30 Nice thread. But I can see two possible problems: - How would CCP know when you are dead? What could they do to avoid that your account was used by anothers? - As you say, all lifetime subscriptions would be paid with PLEX. It has been said recently that CCP wants the PLEX prices stable...couldn't this cause a huge spike in PLEX prices?
Edit: Replying to the post above - Just don't be lazy and use eve search to learn about the person you are talking about.
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Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:40:00 -
[68]
yep good idea, id pay 120 - 150 plex for one.
would add another dimension to reasons for fighting over some of eve's more profitable resources.
would take out the monthly uncertainty of "do plex cost too much to sub this month" . -IRON MIKE IS hi sec lolwarrior- |
Jon Taggart
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:40:00 -
[69]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o So, we learnt in this thread that Akita T has over 300 billion isk. One does not make that much isk with missions. And not with mining, since it would take more than a year of 24/7 mining. So how did you make so much isk, Akita T ? Did you scam in Jita or run away with an alliance capital fleet ? I don't think it's possible to make so much isk the hones way ...
IIRC, based on the kinds of threads Akita took part in over the years, most of the ISK comes from moon minerals and 0.0 production. I'm more sure of the moon minerals bit though.
And why are you so quick to assume illegal activities? There are far more players who have even more ISKies than he does. A romp in Market Discussion would certainly show that.
I'm not an alt |
iudex
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:41:00 -
[70]
Edited by: iudex on 28/03/2011 23:41:54 Lotro lifetime account cost 150 Ç, the normal sub was around the same like here, so 200 PLEX is way too much IMHO. __________________________ http://eveboard.com/pilot/iudex |
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Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.03.28 23:56:00 -
[71]
I'd take it at about 100plex, but only if they credited you 1 plex for each month you have already paid. :P
Retro sig |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 00:04:00 -
[72]
Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o So, we learnt in this thread that Akita T has over 300 billion isk. One does not make that much isk with missions. And not with mining, since it would take more than a year of 24/7 mining. So how did you make so much isk, Akita T ? Did you scam in Jita or run away with an alliance capital fleet ? I don't think it's possible to make so much isk the honest way ...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1190285 Think again. 100% honest. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.29 00:22:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas on 29/03/2011 00:24:33
Originally by: Akita T As long as PLEX remains unapplied to an account, it's still a liability in CCP's books.
There are significant enough differences between: a) one single account with 100 PLEX applied to it b) one single account with 100 PLEX in hangar c) 100 accounts with 1 PLEX applied to each d) 100 accounts with 1 PLEX in each hangar
PLEX that are unapplied are not liabilities (whether in hanger or actually applied as game time) - the liability was 'spent' when you converted your GTC or cash into space pixels. PLEX are items that have no value or equivalent in the real world (because it's not possible to legally convert plex back to USD). 30 days of 'applied game time' is also not a liability (but in a subtly different way) because the EULA says they can turn off the servers for any reason at any time.
Moving from GTC (ie: a voucher for game time - something that you could go to court and at least argue has a real world value) to PLEX (valueless space pixels that you can use for game time but have no real world equivalent) was a brilliant move on their part.
If this doesn't convince you, consider that CCP could just dry up the market by 'creating isk' to buy these plex. That's not something you can do to 'real world' liabilities.
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.03.29 00:52:00 -
[74]
Using Star Trek Online and Champions Online as market comps, they offer lifetime for $300, so I guess I'd say:
24-48 PLEX
The factor that ignoring is the chance that the player will quit the game. Interest rates really aren't the driving force behind lifetime subscription pricing. If they can convince a newer player to buy a lifetime sub, and the new player quits after 6 months, they just made roughly $210. They want to price it low enough to entice players, but high enough where they make money most of the time.
There is also the risk that EVE becomes a crappy game and even vet players who would play the game as-is want to quit. I hate to bring up the SWG NGE cliche, but something like that is always possible with smaller games trying to take game design risks to grow their subscriber base.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 01:05:00 -
[75]
Quote: If this doesn't convince you, consider that CCP could just dry up the market by 'creating isk' to buy these plex. That's not something you can do to 'real world' liabilities.
Yes, they could. However, the thought that they might one day ACTUALLY DO IT is frightening. Before the economist spoke on the panel about "desiring to intervene in the PLEX market", I would have dismissed that possibility as completely absurd. Now, I'm not quite so sure anymore... although Doc.EG might have only spoken about his personal desires, not of actual CCP intentions. I certainly hope that CCP will realize just how much of a backlash such an action would have before they get convinced by the economist that it might be a good idea.
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas PLEX that are unapplied are not liabilities (whether in hanger or actually applied as game time) - the liability was 'spent' when you converted your GTC or cash into space pixels. PLEX are items that have no value or equivalent in the real world (because it's not possible to legally convert plex back to USD). 30 days of 'applied game time' is also not a liability (but in a subtly different way) because the EULA says they can turn off the servers for any reason at any time.
While in a strictly technical fashion you might be somewhat right, from a practical standpoint, you're wrong. CCP's best interests lie in keeping the servers running indefinitely, so that option is right out of the question.
On one hand, the "applied game time" thing IS a liability (regardless of how you applied that gametime, be it as PLEX, GTC or one of the subscription plans), in that they still need to render a service to you. While the VALUE of that liability (the split of total cost in customer service manhours and hardware/power/ISP usage required to maintain the cluster working) is certainly significantly below the sum of money they cashed in for it (depending on method, 11-17.5 USD/EUR minus fees and taxes), it remains nevertheless a liability.
On the other hand, PLEX that sit in a hangar unapplied, even if they also have a much lower potential liability value compared to the income received for it, they are a slightly larger liability than applied gametime. CCP have repeatedly strongly hinted at the fact they would like to not see too many PLEX stockpiling in hangars. NOT ONLY do these unapplied PLEXes carry the liability value of an applied PLEX (which can easily be planned for, since it has a clear end date), but they ALSO can be the cause of unwanted fluctuation in future revenues, screwing up spending projections and other things that depend on a relatively steady cashflow, because they could get applied at ANY time and at ANY rate. So, 100k PLEX in god knows how many hangars (INCLUDING those on dormant accounts, in fact, ESPECIALLY those) could mean 50k more subs JUST for next couple of months, or they could mean 20k more subs for JUST 5 months but at some time in the future, or any other combination of "how many to handle when". Contrast that with 200 PLEX already applied to 500 accounts. Same totals, wildly different scenarios.
Granted, the "liability" is probably barely around 1$/PLEX while having received 17.5$ (minus fees/taxes/whatever) for it, but multiply that by how many PLEX exist, and you're still looking at a nontrivial amount of money.
...why do you think in real-life, gift coupons (and any other such things) have a clear EXPIRY date ?
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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IsoMetricanTaliac 2
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.03.29 01:06:00 -
[76]
Hmmm ok, since it is CCP we are talking about here having a lifetime sub isn't something I would totally ride off.
Having said that though wouldn't something more along the lines of a 3 or 5 year sub be more accessible to your normal every day players? <Cost being the main issue I think with something that is for life costing a considerable amount of money, wouldn't it?>
I think though that before CCP thinks about introducing more longer term sub'ing options they first need to do some work on EVE. I know from the groups of people I talk to & know I have never seen so many of them calling it a day when it comes to EVE. The reason for this are many & some of these reasons are not directly due to the issues EVE is having/been having since way back when.
I guess another thing I would have to consider before I would buy a lifetime sub is, just how long EVE really has left in it before CCP decides the time has come to wrap things up? <1yr?, 3 yrs?, 5+yrs?> As it wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing had happened soon after offers like this have happened. That's not saying that is what would happen for sure but it would be something people would need to know surely before handing out what could be thousands of dollars.
As I said though ATM it seems within the areas I usually play there are more people leaving the game than starting to play & that is something I know I myself have not noticed ever before.
In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 01:18:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2011 01:18:56
They COULD for instance do it differently. They could have a LIMITED number of lifetime subs each month (say, 10), and auction them off. It would be a silent bid uniform price auction where you bid with PLEX.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.03.29 03:08:00 -
[78]
Hey Akita,
a bit off topic but I was reading your "mineral basket" thread about the market. It would SO help if you had some visuals to accompany your market observations. Charts or maps would be helpful. Since you're not busy ;)
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Aquana Abyss
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Posted - 2011.03.29 03:16:00 -
[79]
If Eve lasts another 5 years I'd be amazed, especially with folks like Greyscale on board.
If you have 60 PLEX I'd say you're set for life anyway.
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Effortless Breeze
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2011.03.29 04:10:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Akita T
First off, to max out all skills in EVE right now, you'd need something like, umm, what, 20 years ? And that's assuming CCP doesn't introduce new skills. Second, in any particular area, past a certain SP total specific to that gameplay type, it really doesn't matter how much total SP you have. If total SP would matter that much, nobody would bother making alts for a zillion different things. In fact, there are quite a few drawbacks to having a very high SP character, first and foremost being clone cost. Also, there is no need for any specific player to compete directly with just one other specific player - like in real-life (and unlike the movies), having an army of adequately trained friends usually beats having a handful of uber-elites in the majority of fields you could imagine competing in.
While I agree with you, skillpoints are not the ultimate factor to success in EVE, that is the way it looks for younger players used to say.. traditional leveling systems. You are right, EVE's skill system could put a handful of 10mil SP friends on the same footing as a 150mil player
I could be wrong, but I think max SP is at 340 million skillpoints. At 20mil a year thats 17.5, you could get higher if you planned your respecs.
My point is, while they could add more skills, they haven't. Betweeen Quantum Rise to present day, they have added less than a year of training to the game and I don't see the next 3-4 expansions containing a massive of amount of skills.
.... or am I just dreaming? |
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 07:55:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2011 07:59:27
Originally by: cyndrogen Hey Akita, a bit off topic but I was reading your "mineral basket" thread about the market. It would SO help if you had some visuals to accompany your market observations. Charts or maps would be helpful. Since you're not busy ;)
Well, there's not very busy and then there's bored-to-death... I'm the former, not the latter Which one of the "mineral basket" threads do you mean ? The one where I first talked about the concept back in 2007, some of the much more recent ones (probably late last year?) or the one somewhere in between arguing about how mining needs a total revamp ? Also, I am not sure how "charts or maps" would be helpful there.
Originally by: Effortless Breeze I could be wrong, but I think max SP is at 340 million skillpoints. At 20mil a year thats 17.5, you could get higher if you planned your respecs.
Well, somewhere in that ballpark anyway. Let's see... go to eveboard... pick highest skillcount character (388 skills)... copypasta skillsheet in excel... cut excess columns, use quick formula to extract skill ranks... sum up all... result ? Total skill ranks = 1688. Quick and dirty approximation *256k SP... ...and we get 432,128,000 SP total possible on that particular character.
For 20 years total, that's ~21.6 mil/year. Well, you know, close enough either way, when you compare this to the age of EVE so far, you see that it takes almost 3 times as much as EVE has already been around to max'em all out. Also, look at the top SP character, Dr Caymus, at 166,103,799 SP. Character on #10 spot only has ~146 mil in comparison. So, you know, again, little more than a third of max possible (~144m).
Quote: My point is, while they could add more skills, they haven't. Betweeen Quantum Rise to present day, they have added less than a year of training to the game and I don't see the next 3-4 expansions containing a massive of amount of skills.
Well, I suppose it's true... when they pushed T3 in, that was, what, one rank 4 and 5 rank 5 skills in science, 20 rank 1 skills in the new subsystems category, 4 rank 5 in spaceshp command, so only 69 ranks (?lol?), or ~17.6 mil SP max... then you had, what else, fighter-bombers rank 12, and more recently, planet management with 17 ranks total... oh, yeah, and citadel cruise, 7 more ranks... so a grand total of 105 ranks, or ~26.9 mil SP... yeah, I suppose you could call very roughly one year's worth of training to max out everything new.
Originally by: Effortless Breeze While I agree with you, skillpoints are not the ultimate factor to success in EVE, that is the way it looks for younger players used to say.. traditional leveling systems.
Hence, the focus should be on educating people early on about exactly that... but a noticeable portion of the people already playing seems to think otherwise (at least long enough to propagate the idea), and the typical//expected environment surrounding the early life of most capsuleers doesn't exactly do much good here either. But that's a story for another time and another topic. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Xercodo
Amarr Daj'Juntar
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Posted - 2011.03.29 07:57:00 -
[82]
how bout you just use them all and i stab you in the face in 16.6666667 years? :3
that would have been lifetime rite?
-------------------------------------------------- The drake is a lie
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 08:02:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2011 08:06:31 ...
@ Xercodo : Reeeeeally helpful, dude !
...
Meanwhile, in poll results land... a tiny count of 31 voters... damn...
I wouldn't buy one - 4 12-24 PLEX - 6 24-48 PLEX - 4 48-75 PLEX - 2 75-125 PLEX - 3 120-180 PLEX - 2 180-240 PLEX - 3 whatever it takes, I have too much ISK - 7
... but... wait a minute... hmmz... is that a pattern emerging ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.03.29 10:56:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Akita T So what are you saying exactly then ?
Would I want a life-time sub? Sure, who would not want one?!
Do I think it makes sense? No, I do not.
Imagine for a moment that one could get a life-time subscription for i.e. 200 PLEX. What would this trigger in the wrong kind of minds?
There would be players who would not just try to keep their account, month after month, by buying PLEX and making enough ISKs for it, but who would try to make as much ISKs as it is necessary to get a life-time subscription. So ISK and PLEX would jump into the focus of more players than before. I hate to admit it, but it would give the whole RMT, macro and bot crap indeed another boost and the hate one gets for not joining the hate wagon is annoying enough as it is. For RMT, bots and macros to disappear does it need to less reasons to make lots of ISKs and not more. But if one ignores it then there is still the change in a player's motivation to play the game, because for some the goal would be to get a life-time sub. Is a life-time subscription that much worth to you, Akita?
Why not introduce the 2- or the 5-year subscription first?
Btw, life-time subscriptions were born out of the dead stupid idea to get as many players as possible into a new born MMO, to keep these players regardless of the crap the developers would throw at them, and eventually, when the company has finally gotten out of its debts, to stop giving these subscriptions out. Where do you see CCP fitting in? CCP has mastered this problem a long time ago, and in many ways I should say. Worst case scenario is that some WoW players start spreading rumours about EVE dying. Did you think of this? --
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Ai Shun
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.03.29 11:04:00 -
[85]
PLEX killed EVE Online for me. It's like the iddq of EVE Online. If CCP offered a lifetime subscription and removed PLEX from the game, sure. I'd pay them up to US$2000 for a lifetime subscription.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 11:27:00 -
[86]
Whitehound, sure, you can argue it like that, and it has SOME merit, especially the "in the wrong minds" argument, which is the only credible real threat IMO. But more on that latter point later. Or maybe much later. Or maybe not at all. It's too speculative.
Do you really think people would really step up their honest game to try and accrue enough ISK for 200 PLEX only to give it all to CCP in a single swoop ? Especially since, most likely, PLEX prices would slightly trend upwards ? Or alternatively, that people would actually buy enough ISK from illegal sources (or accumulate them via bot networks)JUST to buy a lifetime sub only to risk getting banned, losing all that they paid for in one single fell swoop ? Especially since CCP announced they're cracking down on RMT and botting even harder ?
So you can also argue it the exact other way around - almost completely certainly, the only people who would ever buy a lifetime sub priced around 200 PLEX would be the people that have way too much ISK on their accounts already, so that 200 PLEX would not represent the entirety of their ISK net worth value (or for that matter, anywhere close to that). This would actually dislodge a big portion of the just-sitting-there ISK in player's wallets and put it into circulation, increasing the velocity of money, which is something the CCP economist has talked about as being allegedly beneficial.
True, that would also have a slight inflationary effect, so it might go either way, beneficial or detrimental, too early and not enough data to tell for sure. However, one could argue that the most likely section of the market to be affected in an inflationary manner would be the PLEX market rather than any of the others... and that's not necessarily a bad thing. With low ISK prices for PLEX, you do get more people using it instead of paying with cash, but a noticeable portion of those people would switch back to cash payments if PLEX prices went up, and also RMT becomes more attractive. With high ISK prices for PLEX, you might lose some subscriptions due to people no longer being able to afford their accounts (or as many accounts as they run now), BUT you also hit RMT with a double-whammy of reduced value if ISK in RL cash terms (depreciating their existing stockpiles if in ISK, neutral if already in PLEX) and reduced demand from people who would bother with purchasing RMT ISK (because yhey can get more ISK for their RL cash without risking a ban). The bonus here (for CCP) is that whenever they find a RMTer that has tried to avoid the financial downfall by trading ISK into PLEX, they can simply remove those PLEX from circulation permanently by banning the account in question.
So, all in all, other than the "what would some specific type of people think", there's really not much of a drawback, in fact, there are easily arguable advantages. That only leaved the "bad thinking" issue open to debate, and there I can't really debate against it yet (need to think more about it first), so I might as well concede it as a reasonable counter-argument for the time being.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.03.29 11:42:00 -
[87]
Alliance Tournament Winners should also receive one.
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DeBingJos
Minmatar Weirdo Asylum
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Posted - 2011.03.29 13:09:00 -
[88]
Akita, you can already do this: Just buy 200+ PLEX. Apply as many as possible and repeat after the almost run out.
If you have the isk for 200PLEX you can buy them and that is the same as a lifetime subscription.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2011.03.29 13:24:00 -
[89]
I don't mind lifetime subscription at all (although I wouldn't probably buy it at the prices it would have to not be a "we are closing" statement), but I highly doubt CCP would do that. No matter the cost, it would probably shake confidence of the players on the solidity of CCP and/or EVE.
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Telvani
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Posted - 2011.03.29 14:53:00 -
[90]
200 plex worth around 350m each
200 X 350m = 70bn
You'd be a pretty terrible player if you couldn't easily make 350m a month off 70bn
If you decided to go down the T2 BPO route which isn't great returns but requires next to no effort
Based on a 5 year ROI T2 BPO (which is conservative) you are looking at 70bn / 60months = 1.2bn / month over 3 plex!
To get a lifetime subscription using a 3 year ROI T2 BPO you would only need to spend 350m X 36 =12.6bn or around 36 plex. |
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 14:54:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2011 15:05:27
Originally by: DeBingJos Akita, you can already do this: Just buy 200+ PLEX. Apply as many as possible and repeat after they almost run out. If you have the isk for 200PLEX you can buy them and that is the same as a lifetime subscription.
I already said something similar in post #5, but you have to admit, while ALMOST the same, it's NOT exactly the same.
Originally by: Telvani You'd be a pretty terrible player if you couldn't easily make 350m a month off 70bn If you decided to go down the T2 BPO route which isn't great returns but requires next to no effort Based on a 5 year ROI T2 BPO (which is conservative) you are looking at 70bn / 60months = 1.2bn / month over 3 plex! To get a lifetime subscription using a 3 year ROI T2 BPO you would only need to spend 350m X 36 =12.6bn or around 36 plex.
Several problems with that. First, there's no guarantee PLEX price will remain in the same ballpark as now. It might go down below 200 mil, it might go over 1 bil, while quite unlikely it's not completely impossible. Second, there's no guarantee that even the already low RoI on a T2 BPO will remain the same. We might as well end up with a situation where the RoI on T2 BPOs ends up at 10 or even 20 years, that if the screaming hordes of newbventards don't get their say-so and T2 BPOs vanish altogether. Third, while you are correct that there are things to do that give high enough RoIs on sufficiently high capitals to yield more than the likely future price of a PLEX, that particular yield is NOT completely effortless. For people that would like to, say, put up very long skills and just go on their merry way for that long because they're busy that period of the year, it's not exactly a good prospect. Finally, there are people with plenty of liquid ISK that simply have NOTHING TO DO WITH because they're already rotating as much as they can, so for them, the issue looks radically different. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Xavier Isaacson
Minmatar Surface Detail
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Posted - 2011.03.29 15:10:00 -
[92]
Originally by: DeBingJos Edited by: DeBingJos on 29/03/2011 13:57:00 Akita, you can already do this: Just buy 200+ PLEX. Apply as many as possible and repeat after they almost run out.
If you have the isk for 200PLEX you can buy them and that is the same as a lifetime subscription.
The idea of a lifetime subscription is that it lasts either the lifetime of the player or of the company. What Akita is suggesting I think would be to aim for the former. 200 PLEX would last a finite amount of time, whereas theoretically the lifetime subscription would extend beyond that period but cost the same.
Originally by: Verone BBC Trust are a sack of arses.
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Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.29 20:26:00 -
[93]
Not voting, there's no option to buy with RL$.
I think the equiv of US$3500 is a bit high, something like US$1000-$1500 would be better (since the average person doing this will do so on two accounts). And it should come with some kind of incentive; A simple (and non-game-breaking) one would be "vanity options are always available for free."
[Remember, I come from a Second Life background. The average landowner there used to pay US$75-$300 a month - or the equiv in L$, converted to US$ through the in-built currency exchange (I used to do a little of both - total of about $2700 over 18 months).
Until I see an action that definitively allows some form of a 'cash out' through PLEX, I consider it a game time item only. As was said, CCP has already made the money off it, regardless of liability.]
@ Whitehound - I don't see them doing anything past a one-yr sub. As it stands now, the six-month is the best price-point (which is what I have on two accounts). They'd have to make the one-year a bit more cheaper to make me consider upgrading to it.
Now, if they offered bulk (12+) GTC purchases at a discount similar to 1-yr subs, then I'd be much more interested...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.29 23:47:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Akita T on 29/03/2011 23:57:18
Originally by: Alain Kinsella Not voting, there's no option to buy with RL$.
Well, it's sort of assumed that 17.5 USD/EUR -> 1 PLEX (only in that direction but not the reverse), so basically 1000$-1500$ would translate to 57-85 PLEX, which would very roughly fit the middle poll option of 48-75 PLEX.
Originally by: Alain Kinsella As it stands now, the six-month is the best price-point
notsureifserious.jpg
12x1M sub = 179.4 4x3M sub = 155.4 ; vs previous, -24 or -13.37% (lol, 1337, eh ?) 2x6M sub = 143.4 ; vs previous, -12 or -8.36% ; vs base -36 or -20.06% 1Y sub = 131.4 ; vs previous, -12 or -9.16% ; vs base -48 or -26.75%
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar oldmanst4r's Corporation
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Posted - 2011.03.30 00:57:00 -
[95]
Edited by: oldmanst4r on 30/03/2011 00:59:14 Edited by: oldmanst4r on 30/03/2011 00:57:39 Edit: Sorry, didn't read the thread. The idea of applying 200xplex to your account has already been suggested. Nvm.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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ATARI BABY
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.03.30 03:50:00 -
[96]
akita is a dev alt and this post is the proof.
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Gimpb
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2011.03.30 13:10:00 -
[97]
Well, let's say they regularly borrow money on a credit line for 6% interest which would be just under 0.5% interest per month. 0.5% of 200 plex is 1 plex per month so it looks like you're right on it if my guess of 6% is close.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.03.30 14:46:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Raid''En on 30/03/2011 14:53:26
Originally by: Whitehound
Why not introduce the 2- or the 5-year subscription first?
we don't care about longer subscirption for real money that's not the point here.
just offer bundle for plexes / gtc for 3-6-12 months, so we get that for less isk, and it would change a lot of things. dunno however if it would be a good or bad thing for the plex market
Originally by: Telvani
You'd be a pretty terrible player if you couldn't easily make 350m a month off 70bn
you didn't understand him, you need to read the topic. goal here is to not have to bother about making new money every month. maybe it don't mean anything for you, but i share the same vision as akita t on this point ; it's pretty different on my mind to have a the active acount for a while and to have to add something everytime to make it stay alive (and so maybe not letting it alive). you won't play the game the same way at all.
btw update of poll ;
I wouldn't buy 18%16 12-24 PLEX 18%16 24-48 PLEX 18%16 48-75 PLEX 8% 7 75-125 PLEX 11%10 120-180 PLEX 5% 4 180-240 PLEX 7% 6 whatever it 15% 13
i wonder if your poll / thread is to know how much time people think they will still play eve / how much time the game will still run without telling it :P cause people ask themselves this question when answering the poll. ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
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