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Vierego
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Posted - 2011.04.02 00:39:00 -
[1]
Howdy, just curious about how one goes leveraging a BPO while still being using it. Heres what I've thought might be a way, but I don't know an of the risk(for either side).
Person with BPO who wants a loan, yet still produce items from the bpo.
Starts a 1 man corp.
Finds someone who will loan to him.
Sends him 333 shares, sends 334 shares to a third party like Chribba, owner keeps 333 shares.
Vote to lock down the BPO.
Now It requires 2 people to unlock it.
Is this generally how it goes? What are the problems with this method?
I buy mission loot in bulk at above buy order prices! (sinq laison) |
Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.04.02 00:42:00 -
[2]
It has been shown that the locking down of things is useless. Apparently you can send the shares to an alt and theyll get to vote using the same shares. Which means locking down is pointless.
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Vierego
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Posted - 2011.04.02 00:45:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tutskii It has been shown that the locking down of things is useless. Apparently you can send the shares to an alt and theyll get to vote using the same shares. Which means locking down is pointless.
Why not send it to a trusted third party like Chribba? I buy mission loot in bulk at above buy order prices! (sinq laison) |
Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.04.02 00:51:00 -
[4]
Even then, the BPO is just in limbo. You have the loan and no BPO, while the lender has nothing.
You'd have to put your manufacturing toon in the lender's corporation, and he would give you manufacturing rights.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 01:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tutskii It has been shown that the locking down of things is useless. Apparently you can send the shares to an alt and theyll get to vote using the same shares. Which means locking down is pointless.
This would be considered to be an exploit. If you notice that this happens, report it.
Investor Relation | IPO Doc |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2011.04.02 01:34:00 -
[6]
Usually either the one loaning you the money or a third party will be CEO of the corp; the BPOs will be put in the corp hangar, where you will get roles to use them. This may be done in a couple of ways, either by locking down the BPOs and giving you director roles, or by giving you query (but not take) access to the hanger division which has the BPOs and take access to another hangar (which will be used for input/output materials). Both ways may be combined, but that won't add much to the security.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.02 01:35:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Vierego Why not send it to a trusted third party like Chribba?
It has been tried thus and failed. All it takes is one 24 hour period when you are sure that the other two voters are not going to be online. Within a 24 hour period you can vote unlock or, even better, more shares. In fact you only need one of the others to not be online for 24 hours as the person with 334 shares can out vote the other person with 333 shares. The ideal situation would seem to be this: All of the shares to a trusted third party. However even that is flawed as the CEO never has to unlock the bpo to keep it. Also it used to be possible to fail paying rent and have locked down items go into "impound". Then all a person has to do is pay the remaining bill to have impound items go into their personal hangar. (I am not sure if this is still valid!) Without a doubt, imnsho, 24 hour is far too short a period for some of the various corporate votes. Share issuance and (un)lock votes are the biggest ones. Should be no less than 7 days but well I'm sure there's some programming reason CCP doesn't change that. (I don't believe that but meh... ...)
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.04.02 01:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shar Tegral Without a doubt, imnsho, 24 hour is far too short a period...
Not that I'm disagreeing with you overall, but I think a change in timers and such should be a part of a change in overall corporation/alliance functionality. As it stands, for what little you can really do with the existing system, any extra delay is just an added pain in the ass for the vast majority going about the daily simple tasks available through the existing system.
I would love a more....hmmm..."robust" corporate control system, and I can just imagine all the interesting operative social organizations people would come up with. However, for the extremely limited system we have right now, simpler and faster is better in my opinion, since you can't do much of anything anyway.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.02 01:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Elise DarkStar However, for the extremely limited system we have right now, simpler and faster is better in my opinion, since you can't do much of anything anyway.
Lock downs and share issuance is about security and control. Such matters are never enhanced with the word "faster".
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.04.02 01:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Elise DarkStar However, for the extremely limited system we have right now, simpler and faster is better in my opinion, since you can't do much of anything anyway.
Lock downs and share issuance is about security and control. Such matters are never enhanced with the word "faster".
You're right. In my mind I lumped things like war decs etc in with lockdowns and share issues, when they don't necessarily have to be. Although they all have the same blanket time frame at the moment, it wouldn't be a major functionality alteration to change the timers for those two specifically.
My bad for posting a half-cooked thought.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.02 11:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Elise DarkStar My bad for posting a half-cooked thought.
No harm, no foul. But, speaking of War Dec's, a nasty trick pulled by War Declarers also works very well for destroying control over a corporation's assets. Wait for a significant patch to be released, then as the server is going down, initiate the vote you want to take place. By time anyone gets notice or a chance to vote: Already over. For war dec's this is pure ambush upon targets as they have little notice to prepare for the war. For corporate control, just as ugly.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.04.02 12:24:00 -
[12]
I know this might sound like too much KISS approach but it's since 1 and half year that I don't even bother with all of this bug-tastic excuses for security.
There's none.
Therefore I just pick the BPOs and research them on my own, the other guy pays off, I send BPOs back with contract (details change depending on agreements with the other parties). This is quicker and works.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.02 12:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Therefore I just pick the BPOs and research them on my own, the other guy pays off, I send BPOs back with contract (details change depending on agreements with the other parties). This is quicker and works.
Totally agreed that the game limitations makes KISS solutions more ideal. For myself, I hold the bpo as collateral. If there is to be any production, I do it. I simply charge isk per second for my time and build slot. This removes not only security issue(s) over bpo lockdown but also giving someone else access to "canceling" production/research jobs. Another oversight by CCP: Production/Research logs who creates a job but not who delivers/cancels jobs.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.04.02 13:11:00 -
[14]
I think this would work, but I would appreciate any comments.
Person A has a BPO and want to put it up as collateral for a loan while using it for production.
Person B has the isk to make the loan but wants to hold the BPO securely.
A creates a one man corp. B has an alt join the corp. A gives all shares to B and B has his alt become CEO of the corp. B sets the appropriate corp roles (some hand-waving involved here.) BPO is locked down, money changes hands (3rd party could be involved for this.)
B has complete control of the BPO and could walk with it but A would have the isk. It is no more risky than what VV and Shar do, but B does not have to be involved in the day-to-day operations of the corp.
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Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.04.02 13:38:00 -
[15]
I think the manufacturing arrangements are easy enough. I'm interested in what lenders do with research. My guess is that they research the BPOs with their own characters, but this represents a significant cost to lender in terms of POS, slot opportunity cost, and plex (depending on his portfolio size). Plus you would have to set some minimum floor for which BPOs are worth copying.
I know you could just let the borrower put a research alt in your corporation like you would with manufacturing, but since it has to be done at a POS, it will quickly become common knowledge what the lender's holding corp is and his tower(s) will be vulnerable to ransom or griefing (ROFL, wondering why my spellchecker is telling me that I'm misspelling "griefing", forgetting of course that it's not an actual word :P).
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.02 14:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Elise DarkStar this represents a significant cost to lender in terms of POS, slot opportunity cost, and plex (depending on his portfolio size).
This area is where I diverge from the normal MD resident. I believe it is important to understand the cost concepts involved, truly a vital - even critical - thing. However the truth is that accounting for things to the nth level, imho, turns Eve into a job, not a game. Besides, if you really do a full on cost analysis the level of depth on must go really is .... ... excessive.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Julius Rigel
Sub-warp Racing Venture
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Posted - 2011.04.02 14:18:00 -
[17]
You ask a lot of questions...
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Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.04.02 15:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shar Tegral This area is where I diverge from the normal MD resident. I believe it is important to understand the cost concepts involved, truly a vital - even critical - thing. However the truth is that accounting for things to the nth level, imho, turns Eve into a job, not a game.
Besides, if you really do a full on cost analysis the level of depth on must go really is .... ... excessive.[/justify]
Ya, I'm a hardcore nerd in that sense. I probably spend as much time counting exactly how much money I've made as I do actually making it.
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