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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr Amarrian Veterans Guild
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Posted - 2011.04.23 09:16:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Shandir I too think that punishment should be as harsh as possible, but since it's clear that doesn't make business sense (at least at the moment) I would suggest the following additional punishments: * Botting accounts lose the ability to transfer characters (It's a privilege, not a right - and you won't be profiting your several billion or recycling characters onto clean accounts) * Botting accounts should be permanently marked in a manner visible either in game or on an API key. We'll see who hires these cheaters, and we will shun them. * Botting accounts must pay properly (no PLEX) for X period of time. It does not make sense that these people can cheat and make the game *free* while other non-cheating players must part with hard earned cash to play. * Botting accounts must be relieved of a significant sum of ISK, equal to a conservative best guess at how much they profited.
This, oh and Bump.
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clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.23 09:59:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
In the last few days, I've started to notice some large sell orders of isotopes and minerals reappear at multiple, particularly regional, trade hubs.
I wonder if these are expired bans dumping their stocks before giving up, or new stocks being produced. I guess time will tell.
I just hope CCP have a strategy to conduct a follow up investigations.
Confirmed by multiple sources.
Volumes stayed low the days after so it looks like an incident.
Curious about the second part as well btw. But THE unbanned must be really ignorant and stupid to restart their dubious activities. It doesnt take much to create a query with their names and any unregular asset/isk growth.
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Florestan Bronstein
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Posted - 2011.04.23 14:34:00 -
[483]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 23/04/2011 14:36:35
Originally by: clixor Curious about the second part as well btw. But THE unbanned must be really ignorant and stupid to restart their dubious activities. It doesnt take much to create a query with their names and any unregular asset/isk growth.
You are thinking about this issue like a normal player would (who doesn't want his accounts banned), not like a business.
A botting account that does not produce is a financial loss unless it can be sold.
Long-term the question is whether CCP's average "time to ban" is greater than the "time to break-even" for a new botting account (I guess you would need about 2 months for skill training + a subscription for the first month of real use, so CCP would have to ban faster than a bot can earn about 3x PLEX).
Short-term the situation is:
After the first strike you have to assume the offending account has been flagged in CCP's systems. You have 3 choices at this point - continue botting, sell characters/account, just close the account.
Last option is of course worse than selling the characters for ISK or selling the whole account for RL money and can be excluded.
However, the second-to-last option will still be available after the second strike.
So the question is:
Sell account right now or continue botting, pay for 30 days of idle time (2nd strike ban) & sell account.
It seems unlikely that CCP wold ban you faster than you can earn the money for the PLEX that covers your 2nd strike ban so the deciding factor becomes the state of the character market (and the interest rate you can earn on RL money/ISK).
It would be plausible that many "amateur" botters overestimate the effectiveness of CCP's detection systems or are scared of losing their poorly veiled main accounts and have stopped botting while panic-selling their botting characters/accounts.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.23 16:49:00 -
[484]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 23/04/2011 14:39:18
Originally by: clixor Curious about the second part as well btw. But THE unbanned must be really ignorant and stupid to restart their dubious activities. It doesnt take much to create a query with their names and any unregular asset/isk growth.
You are thinking about this issue like a normal player would (who doesn't want his accounts banned), not like a business.
A botting account that does not produce is a financial loss unless it can be sold.
Long-term the question is whether CCP's average "time to ban" is greater than the "time to break-even" for a new botting account (I guess you would need about 2 months for skill training + a subscription for the first month of real use, so CCP would have to ban faster than a bot can earn about 3x PLEX, less if you take trials/promotions into account).
Short-term the situation is:
After the first strike you have to assume the offending account has been flagged in CCP's systems. You have 3 choices at this point - continue botting, sell characters/account, just close the account.
Last option is of course worse than selling the characters for ISK or selling the whole account for RL money and can be excluded.
However, the second-to-last option will still be available after the second strike.
So the question is:
Sell account right now or continue botting, pay for 30 days of idle time (2nd strike ban) & sell account.
It seems unlikely that CCP wold ban you faster than you can earn the money for the PLEX that covers your 2nd strike ban so the deciding factor becomes the state of the character market (and the interest rate you can earn on RL money/ISK).
It would be plausible that many "amateur" botters overestimate the effectiveness of CCP's detection systems or are scared of losing their poorly veiled main accounts and have stopped botting while panic-selling their botting characters/accounts (depressing he market).
Maybe holding out a bit before selling the account might be a pretty reasonable option anyways and the income-earning time you get before the 2nd strike is just icing on the cake?
The professional botter also has to consider at what point it is worth his time to continuously start up new accounts and deal with the hassle of selling busted characters. At some point it simply becomes more efficient to set up in another game. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.23 20:04:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 23/04/2011 14:39:18 You are thinking about this issue like a normal player would (who doesn't want his accounts banned), not like a business.
I was actually thinking more in the likes of CCP. Hoping that they've got their basics covered. I know how corporations work and everybody is busy. Giving CCP the benefit of doubt for now.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:00:00 -
[486]
Originally by: clixor
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 23/04/2011 14:39:18 You are thinking about this issue like a normal player would (who doesn't want his accounts banned), not like a business.
I was actually thinking more in the likes of CCP. Hoping that they've got their basics covered. I know how corporations work and everybody is busy. Giving CCP the benefit of doubt for now.
In actuality, the normal player is the one who has the most to lose. We will catch him and he will lose all his stuff. It's the cheaters who don't fit the mold who will require the most attention. We went after a new one today. HAPPY EASTER! |
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:53:00 -
[487]
I'm wondering if the sell orders for ice can be reliably used as an inverse proxy of botting levels. Hulkageddon saw the price of ice rise substantially, and the prices appear to be gaining. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 06:48:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Mara Rinn I'm wondering if the sell orders for ice can be reliably used as an inverse proxy of botting levels. Hulkageddon saw the price of ice rise substantially, and the prices appear to be gaining.
To a certain extent, I'm pretty sure that will be true.
I've got no problem with trit selling for 8isk a unit. If it reaches that price, it will reach it for EVERYONE. Thus, no problem.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 06:55:00 -
[489]
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 25/04/2011 06:56:21
Something that bears repeating:
The core problem with Bots is they eliminate delicious Tears from the game.
No joke.
The whole point of Bots is to knock the BIG effort required to buy expensive stuff down to 'little' effort.
That means when the stuff dies, there are no tears.
That, NO JOKE, turns Eve PvP into WoW PvP.
Repeat
That, NO JOKE, turns Eve PvP into WoW PvP.
Repeat AGAIN....
That, NO JOKE, turns Eve PvP into WoW PvP.
Understand that. THAT is why Bots should be opposed by all serious Eve players.
I have said for YEARS, remove the pain from PvP, and there will be more of it, but it will at the same time lose its intensity. That would be a bad thing. It would turn Eve PvP into WoW PvP.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Boyd Edison
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Posted - 2011.04.25 07:13:00 -
[490]
Edited by: Boyd Edison on 25/04/2011 07:14:12 NO JOKE NO JOKE NO JOKE
????
What the **** did you just, I don't even...
Dear god man, are you on acid?
Whatever point you were trying to make it just got lost in that profoundly stupid delivery.
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clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.25 10:29:00 -
[491]
Happy Easter as well Screegs
Any news about the forthcoming Blog?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.25 12:18:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Boyd Edison
NO JOKE NO JOKE NO JOKE
????
What the **** did you just, I don't even...
Dear god man, are you on acid?
Whatever point you were trying to make it just got lost in that profoundly stupid delivery.
It's quite straightforward.
If it's trivial to gain ISK and assets, then it's not much of a loss when you lose them in PVP. If PVP losses are meaningless, then so are PVP gains, and the whole concept of PVP.
I'm surprised that this is giving you difficulty.
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.04.25 12:38:00 -
[493]
Originally by: clixor Happy Easter as well Screegs
Any news about the forthcoming Blog?
I'm back to work tomorrow so we'll sort that out then |
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 13:00:00 -
[494]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs We went after a new one today. HAPPY EASTER!
Looking forward to a fresh bath of tears from this.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Kambiri Zoltana
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 13:21:00 -
[495]
A question to ccp, the botting in 0.0 is already hard to spot, how does ccp go about the ways isk is being transferred? Is something being done to discover them via those ways?
Methods to transfer isk I can think of are...
- Trading value of isk through tags, I know its done that way cause an old corp member suicide ganked multiple haulers with thousands of tags in jita. Drop it in a can, the other person picks it up. Their is no trace. Tags are small in volume too, so easy to move. - How u seperate normal scam contracts from isk selling ¿'scam' contracts? - Sell orders for items at 'high prices', like shuttles for 900 mill isk..
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.25 13:35:00 -
[496]
Jita Price report
This is an attempt to see the effects of the bot war by monitoring trade at Jita.
Mineral prices continue a very slow price decline. As botting increases both mineral supply and mineral demand (ratting bot isk is used to buy stuff), its unclear which way we should expect prices to go. But we would expect to see a trade volume reduction. Ive looked for this, and just eyeballing the plot, it may be there.
Ice continues to rise, but slowly. This is the only market effect Ive seen that I feel confident in saying is due to the bot war.
The PLEX is stable.
On another note, a probable bot in a nearby system that Ive been watching was gone for awhile, came back for a short time, and now on intermittently, rather than continuously.
Ive also been monitoring a local ice belt. Usually 40 to 60 miners, but most are different people each time I look. Also more orca supported ops than Im use to seeing. So looks like real people, or very clever bots.
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Dare Devel
Caldari Paxton Industries -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.04.25 13:50:00 -
[497]
In terms of living and fighting the Bot Owners in zero sec space ....
There is you a normal PvP player... making few hundreds of million ISk a month by ratting to buy his/her ships + fittings There is the owner of a bot (doing PvP)... making a few billion ISK a month using his/her bot to buy his/her ships + fittings
Normal PvP Player loses a ship ... Rats or mines for few days to re-ship Bot owner loses a ship... Re-ships immediately
Normal player loses a costly ship (e.g T3, faction, capital)... Takes a multiple weeks of ratting/mining etc to buy a new hull of that type with fittings. Bot owner loses a costly ship (e.g T3, faction, capital)... Re-ships immediately
The implication of such differences can have major effects.
The Normal PvP Player can never compete against the Bot Owner with respect to the quality of ship brought into a fight. As the fights carry on for a longer period, the normal player starts bringing in cheaper ships against the better hulls of the Bot Owner, who will not care about losing them due to their un-ending supply of ISK.
This equates to a situation where the Normal player plays in Tranquility environment whereas a Bot Owner plays in Tranquility but under a Singularity environment (everything is 100isk).
Finally Bot Owner will win and the Normal Player has to move into empire. I am mentioning empire because the normal player will not have the energy or motivation to re-establish in another 0.0 space because he/she knows that the Bot Owner will come smelling for those space soon.
One and only one person can change all this--> CCP Sreegs. Good Luck !
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Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 14:09:00 -
[498]
Simplified, as requested by stupid people:
The whole point of Bots is to knock the BIG effort required to buy expensive stuff down to 'little' effort.
That means when the stuff dies, there are no tears.
That, NO JOKE, turns Eve PvP into WoW PvP.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Ishante
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Posted - 2011.04.25 14:12:00 -
[499]
I would love to see Trit near 8isk per unit, that would make me very happy. 1 Hulk with an Orca who has max skills will sure rake in some serious profit in just a few hours sitting at a belt and stripping it bare.
So killing the macros would be beneficial to some of us as long as CCP doesn't peg the value to some arbitrary low number.
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Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 14:19:00 -
[500]
For purposes of turning Eve PvP into WoW PvP, Bots are worse than buying isk (be it by PLEX or illegally).
If someone PLEXs themselves into into a 20billion Super Cap, if I kill it, I just nuked $1000 of their stuff (instead of 20 billion isk worth). Even if they make $200,000 a year, you feel that. (thus, delicious tears...)
If they RMT it, it hurts less (thus RMT is worse than PLEX, AND against the EULA...), but you are still probably talking several hundred dollars.
If they Bot it, they just afk mine it out again (yes, they might have purchased the Bot, but that would be a one time thing).
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:20:00 -
[501]
Originally by: CCP Sreegs I'm back to work tomorrow so we'll sort that out then
Just remember that friends dont let friends count drinks ;)
"Nah, I'm sure that's only your third!"
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:23:00 -
[502]
Sounds like we need our bot forum spys to check for new outrage posts on the sites that haven't had issues yet.
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Wang LeeMei
United Kings R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:27:00 -
[503]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Simplified, as requested by stupid people:
The whole point of Bots is to knock the BIG effort required to buy expensive stuff down to 'little' effort.
That means when the stuff dies, there are no tears.
That, NO JOKE, turns Eve PvP into WoW PvP.
this and eve will become a game of "who can dump more RL money into ISK"
i petitioned ISKBANK recently i hope your really looking into it otherwise this game will turn into crap within a year with all the recent events
fly safe
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:46:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Sounds like we need our bot forum spys to check for new outrage posts on the sites that haven't had issues yet.
im on it. Good to be back, took a long Easter vacation in the countryside :)
ill go check em out and let you guys know whats up!
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:52:00 -
[505]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Originally by: Ranger 1 Sounds like we need our bot forum spys to check for new outrage posts on the sites that haven't had issues yet.
im on it. Good to be back, took a long Easter vacation in the countryside :)
ill go check em out and let you guys know whats up!
Quick, to the Botmobile!
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.25 17:04:00 -
[506]
Here it is guys:
Website A (EP: the one who closed all bot-banned related threads) is still haveing leaks of a few threads about people getting banned. Although I did find a thread asking how a player can get his money back. Coincidence? Maybe!
Website B (TM) has started to report losses. For a while no one was saying anything (and I feared that they where somehow being missed by CCP), but I found similar posts to this:
"User XXXXX2 is banned Last login: XXXXX2 Number of visits: 861 Reason: EULA/TOS Violation - Macro use Until: 2011.05.04
Got Banned today in my 2 accounts BEWARE EVERYONE THEY ARE CATCHING THE PPL who is using the bot "
I'd go out on a limb and say Website B is officially under siege.
And for our last/favorite website. C (RR) is down again. They had recently been waiting for a 'big update' that would fix the CCP 'problem', i guess they launched it and found that it didn't work. They are completely down once again.
TO sum up, Round two starts off with all 3 of the major macro bots experiencing noticeable problems.
I wasn't able to find any tears on the macro-ratter site. Though I will admit their forum is cumbersome and difficult to search. I'll keep looking.
HOPE YA HAD A GOOD EASTER, SREEGS
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.25 17:42:00 -
[507]
I managed to pinpoint at least two potential bots around my neck of the woods. I found some reds flags that suggested that these toons in question may be potential bots. I'll keep a close eye on them. Once I feel confident that they are indeed bots, I will report them to CCP.
I also ran into one group that was Ice mining in Vattuolen. It's hard to tell if they are botters since they are mining inconsistently. But they did have at least 2 Orcas, 1 Hulk, and almost 8 Mackinaws on average. Gekutami has almost the same pattern except with 3 Orcas, and a bunch of Hulks with one of the toons being a potential bot.
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Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
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Posted - 2011.04.25 19:44:00 -
[508]
Originally by: NinjaSpud ... but I found similar posts to this:
"User XXXXX2 is banned Last login: XXXXX2 Number of visits: 861 Reason: EULA/TOS Violation - Macro use Until: 2011.05.04
Got Banned today in my 2 accounts BEWARE EVERYONE THEY ARE CATCHING THE PPL who is using the bot "
I'd go out on a limb and say Website B is officially under siege.
A...
Heh Heh Heh. Sweet botter tears. Just saw this during a google search:
Originally by: bot-tard Ok well just to confirm all of these lovely suspicions, I have recieved another bann, that makes 2 accounts now, so i ill be stopping before my main gets screwed :-), 3 more to play with still :-(
Ill be watching to see if there are improovements, I hope so, but untill then I'll wait and see, sorry for posting here, but this is where all new threads go, it seems :-0.
Good luck to all.
Also, I seem to have stumbled across another bot that doesn't fit the pattern of any of the others mentioned. Looked at the forums and the mods really really want to keep discussion to IRC. Documentation website is password protected. Main forums have 294 Active Members and the odd post from the last month. Can't see any threads on being banned though -------------------------- How do you play the game?
Originally by: Le Skunk Spin an armarda of expensive ships, grandstand in local chat and post on forums
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IGNATIUS HOOD
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Posted - 2011.04.25 21:40:00 -
[509]
Look at it like this. Bot-Mining is really a form of market manipulation and currency devaluation through a commodity which has real and game consequences. Everyone who plays the game by the rules is getting screwed by the devaluation of their ISK. Our mining efforts are not as profitable and our ISK doesn't stretch as far. The only way to truly fix this is to cap the market or cap the ISK in circulation. One of the really unique things about Eve is the open economy but the respawned money trees (asteroid belts) makes this behavior lucrative so it really attacks one of the economic pillars of the game. If you cap the ISK in circulation or adjust the respawn rate of High Sec belts it would put a damper on this behavior. But there are BIG consequences to both. On the other hand I think CCP should offer greenlights and bounties on BOTS. I would gladly wander hs killing bots if CCP bountied them and told us who they were.
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Slaves Trader Bobbert
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Posted - 2011.04.25 22:20:00 -
[510]
Seems to be a big hubub about macro miners and ratters, but what of the ever-present trading bots?
Do the same detection methods work on them aswell, or are we seeing some botters slip under the radar as the sights of CCP rest firmly outside of stations?
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