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DeBingJos
Minmatar The Reformed
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Posted - 2011.04.05 08:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DeBingJos on 05/04/2011 08:26:41 What does this mean; will CCP buy or sell PLEX on the market and why?
If they increase the PLEX-supply (generating extra PLEX) they will lose income because a normal PLEX has to be bought by someone with rl money.
If they decrease the PLEX-supply (removing PLEX from the market by buying them) they will generate a huge isk-faucet. CCP stated serveral times already that there is to much isk in new eden. So this is not an option.
What does the statement below mean and how can they manipulate the PLEX market?
Quote: With a growing PLEX market (PLEX is the item with the highest trade value on the EVE market on any given day) and its function of facilitating the exchange of game time for ISK, players have become concerned about PLEX prices. PLEX is sold on an open market in a free exchange between players, just like most other items in EVE Online. Our core design principle of being hands-off from these markets also applies to the PLEX market. However, due to its complex function and potential impact on the velocity of money supply, the Central Bank might intervene in the PLEX market in order to curb inflation or avoid sudden deflation in the EVE economy. All such action would not be announced beforehand and only limited information would become public in the quarter after actions have been taken. These actions would aim at stabilization of the PLEX market and do not have a specific price target for PLEX or a specific inflation target for prices in EVE.
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Atima
Minmatar House of Marbles
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Posted - 2011.04.05 08:37:00 -
[2]
HEY GUYS, I THINK I'VE FINALLY PERFECTED MY TIME MACHINE!
I clicked on this thread and somehow ended up in last week.
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Herman Klaus
Caldari Touched By Klaus
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Posted - 2011.04.05 09:03:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Atima HEY GUYS, I THINK I'VE FINALLY PERFECTED MY TIME MACHINE!
I clicked on this thread and somehow ended up in last week.
I lol'd
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Julius Rigel
Sub-warp Racing Venture
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Posted - 2011.04.05 09:10:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Julius Rigel on 05/04/2011 09:10:13
Originally by: Atima HEY GUYS, I THINK I'VE FINALLY PERFECTED MY TIME MACHINE!
I clicked on this thread and somehow ended up in last week.
Cool! You're posting from Tuesday 5th! What's the 1.4 patch like?!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.04.05 09:31:00 -
[5]
Some ways of manipulating the PLEX market could include not showing all orders, calculating the running averages differently, placing a limit on the number of PLEX that any one account can place on the market, buying up low priced PLEX and reselling them later, or ganking ships transporting PLEX. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Doris Dragonbreath
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.05 10:20:00 -
[6]
I find it more likely that CCP or "EVE Central Bank" would just buy up the PLEX from market for isk or sell PLEX themselves if the price starts changing too fast. Possibly through a throwaway alt. With a small note "yeah we did something" about 3-6 months later in small print.
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STONED OPERATOR
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Posted - 2011.04.05 11:52:00 -
[7]
Edited by: STONED OPERATOR on 05/04/2011 11:54:16
Originally by: Mara Rinn Some ways of manipulating the PLEX market could include not showing all orders, calculating the running averages differently, placing a limit on the number of PLEX that any one account can place on the market, buying up low priced PLEX and reselling them later, or ganking ships transporting PLEX.
Or donating it for good causes...
There is a very easy way for ccp to deal with inflation and it has been done so and will be done in future by nerfing null sec sanctums and regulating loot drops.
CCP could make $$$ by buying plex of the market and then fix the resulting inflation with various isk faucet nerfs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS5IHVKRzwc
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.04.05 12:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Atima HEY GUYS, I THINK I'VE FINALLY PERFECTED MY TIME MACHINE!
I clicked on this thread and somehow ended up in last week.
Omg, hack!
Investor Relation | IPO Doc |
Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.04.05 12:58:00 -
[9]
Since the QEN was released on Monday and the video of the talk was released over the weekend, I have no problem with having a sane rational discussion on this subject now that we have something to look at and analyze. Even if the ZOMG already happened a week ago.
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Chu Ran
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:08:00 -
[10]
Not sure if anyone pointed this out or not...
If CCP enters the PLEX market and allow themselves the ability to buy PLEX, then it would essentially mean they take on the role of isk sellers (all the while monopolizing the market by banning all other isk sellers, thus keeping the price stable at a relatively high level). This gives CCP a money-printing machine because they can create isk out of thin air and convert them to actual money.
Personally, I would find this kind of behavior completely inappropriate (for a pay-to-play MMORPG) and hypocritical.
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Marshallin Santerese
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:45:00 -
[11]
Dr. E suggested at FF that they would only act if there was a serious stability problem with the PLEX market, not to prop PLEX prices up or to keep them below a certain point.
I don't know how he would judge that, but IANAE.
As for mechanism, they could buy or sell PLEX. Both have consequences, as noted, but they may decide that it's worth it to maintain confidence in the market.
If they were to buy plex off the market, then they could probably reclaim most of the isk by selling them at a later date.
Um. It's possible that this is a warning - there are almost certainly some people who have a large amount of plex stashed somewhere. This /might/ be read as "don't dump all of them onto the market at once".
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Eu Daimon
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Chu Ran Not sure if anyone pointed this out or not...
If CCP enters the PLEX market and allow themselves the ability to buy PLEX, then it would essentially mean they take on the role of isk sellers (all the while monopolizing the market by banning all other isk sellers, thus keeping the price stable at a relatively high level). This gives CCP a money-printing machine because they can create isk out of thin air and convert them to actual money.
Personally, I would find this kind of behavior completely inappropriate (for a pay-to-play MMORPG) and hypocritical.
And bordering the illegal...
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:00:00 -
[13]
CCP buying/selling PLEX for ISK would be extremely bad form.
they could just as well start selling ISK (or stuff) directly. the whole point of PLEX was: CCP gets money, players with RL time get game time, players with RL money get ISK ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Cyniac
Gallente Twilight Star Rangers
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Cyniac on 05/04/2011 14:29:09 Honestly - they already have interfered in the PLEX market. Simply by making the statement that if needed they would interfere they are sending out a very clear signal: If you try to manipulate the PLEX market you will lose, CCP will make sure of it.
Random thought: Might this be targeted at RTM who have thoughts of somehow using the PLEX market to their advantage?
However if they wanted to do more, there is absolutely no reason why they should actually be buying/selling PLEX on the market as they are free to control both the demand and supply sides of PLEX.
CCP has many many ways to act in the PLEX market which have nothing to do with buying and selling PLEX.
Too many PLEX? Activate temporarly PLEX sinks - (Incarna will open up nice opportunities for this)
Too few PLEX? Shut down PLEX sinks, in extremis you could even have special PLEX offers.
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Katie Tanaka
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Katie Tanaka on 05/04/2011 14:56:26
Originally by: Chu Ran This gives CCP a money-printing machine because they can create isk out of thin air and convert them to actual moneyl.
For the typical high-sec carebear subscriber, isn't that exactly what CCP does? Players pay to play the game, CCP gives them mission rewards, bounties etc. Cash goes in, ISK comes out.
In any case, to me this makes perfect sense. Here's why. Let's assume the following:
- There are currently a lot of bots generating ISK from mission rewards and bounties
- The bots are primarily self-funding, in that they generate enough ISK to pay for PLEX and also leave a profit
- CCP plans to reduce the number of bots very significantly
I think we can agree (or at least hope, in the case of the last) that all these are true.
This scenario suggests a drop in the demand for PLEX, which economics tells us should result in a drop in market price if supply stays constant. The interesting question is: to what extent would the removal of the bots also result in price deflation? We are pretty sure that removing the bots will result in less ISK flowing into the economy; but to what extent will that show up in prices of goods frequently acquired by typical players?
This is important because it determines the purchasing power of PLEX (and hence the purchasing power of a dollar). If removal of all the bots turns out not be deflationary, but results in a sharp drop in the price of PLEX, there will be some players for whom buying PLEX for cash and selling for ISK is no longer an attractive proposition; since the price of (say) a Raven in cash terms has gone up.
Every time a player decides not to buy a PLEX for cash, that's potentially a subscription lost for CCP; and since we got rid of all the bots, any subscriptions lost are those of active players. So that's bad for CCP and it's bad for the EVE community.
So you have two unknown factors: the price elasticity of demand for ISK and the extent to which bot-earned ISK is price inflationary; and depending on these unknowns, CCP might suffer a significant loss of business.
What's interesting about the scenario I described is that it's one where it would make sense for CCP to intervene in the market - buying PLEX by printing ISK (or adopting other non-traditional measures) to support the price. The reason that's true is that players who are already buying PLEX with ISK are no worse off than they are at the moment, and players who were selling PLEX for ISK would have no reason to cease doing so.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:59:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tasko Pal on 05/04/2011 14:59:21 Well, what would cause sudden inflation or deflation? As I see it, the greatest danger is bugs. If I can exploit a bug to create a massive isk source (say I figure out how to shoot a rat once and collect bounty on that rat a few dozen times), that isk might spread around a lot before CCP catches on. Let's suppose my buddies and I create several trillion isk and start buying out PLEX and using it on our alts. There's a huge surge in PLEX prices (massive inflation). CCP bans our accounts, but doesn't roll back the game a week. Now there's the simultaneous problems of too much isk in the economy now and not enough PLEX. CCP can't just take back the isk from the PLEX sellers because they've already spent the isk in turn. Creating PLEX and selling it can serve simultaneously to settle the PLEX market and sink some of the excess isk out there.
What would cause sudden deflation of PLEX? A dupe bug for PLEX. If I create tens of thousands of new PLEX, I can crash the market and create a hard or impossible to unroll problem before CCP figures out what is going on.
Duping other things such as PI materials or LP can in turn create effective isk sources and sinks which can warp the game. The PLEX market would provide limited means for CCP to sink and source isk, in such a situation.
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Katie Tanaka
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tasko Pal Creating PLEX and selling it can serve simultaneously to settle the PLEX market and sink some of the excess isk out there.
I don't see that happening simply for the reason that it directly hits CCP's bottom line. Every PLEX they print and sell into the market has an opportunity cost of $15.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:31:00 -
[18]
I lean toward CCP keeping away from PLEX as much as possible due to the real life impact on their financial records. I can only imagine trying to explain that to a auditor..
Yeah, so what we do is, we sell these in game items for Real money, the player gives us $15, and we give them this item. If they choose to sell it to get in-game currency, we buy them, then destroy them...
That would go over really well with an auditor and pretty much every regulator you can think of around the world.
Amarr for Life |
clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tasko Pal Edited by: Tasko Pal on 05/04/2011 14:59:21 Well, what would cause sudden inflation or deflation? As I see it, the greatest danger is bugs. If I can exploit a bug to create a massive isk source (say I figure out how to shoot a rat once and collect bounty on that rat a few dozen times), that isk might spread around a lot before CCP catches on. Let's suppose my buddies and I create several trillion isk and start buying out PLEX and using it on our alts.
This even isn't so hypothetical. There are trillionaires in EVE who can massively influence the PLEX market... just because they can.. such a case was even confirmed on MD before with the explanation that the reason for doing so .. because the guy was bored.
Now, this particular manipulation only raised PLEX prices 50 - 80m. If a bored bonified trillionaire decides to do such a thing he could seriously hurt the PLEX market for extended periods.
With normal pixelfied items this wouldn't be such a biggie, but in the case of PLEXes, it could seriously hurt CCP's bottom line.
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Rumple Fourskin
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:25:00 -
[20]
I dont think ccp should be buying plexes BUT I highly doubt doing so would be illegal. Both the plex and the isk belong to ccp not you. Sometimes I think people lose focus that this is a GAME not real life.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Katie Tanaka
Originally by: Tasko Pal Creating PLEX and selling it can serve simultaneously to settle the PLEX market and sink some of the excess isk out there.
I don't see that happening simply for the reason that it directly hits CCP's bottom line. Every PLEX they print and sell into the market has an opportunity cost of $15.
Massive inflation will hit their bottom line anyway. The other way is more obvious. If I create and sell a million PLEX, then that's up to $15 million dollars they're not going to see, unless they can clear out all that plex.
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MailDeadDrop
The Collective
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tasko Pal Massive inflation will hit their bottom line anyway. The other way is more obvious. If I create and sell a million PLEX, then that's up to $15 million dollars they're not going to see, unless they can clear out all that plex.
Tasko, AFAIK CCP is the only entity which can create PLEX. You can exchange GTCs for PLEX, but the money still goes to CCP (via GTC reseller). From CCP's accounting perspective, I believe it's a wash.
MDD
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: MailDeadDrop
Originally by: Tasko Pal Massive inflation will hit their bottom line anyway. The other way is more obvious. If I create and sell a million PLEX, then that's up to $15 million dollars they're not going to see, unless they can clear out all that plex.
Tasko, AFAIK CCP is the only entity which can create PLEX. You can exchange GTCs for PLEX, but the money still goes to CCP (via GTC reseller). From CCP's accounting perspective, I believe it's a wash.
I was talking in context of my earlier post about there being a bug for creating PLEX out of thin air. If I dupe a million plex and somehow disperse them before CCP catches on (say similar to the pos bug that allowed parties in the know to create massive quantities of valuable complex materials for t2 production and which didn't get caught for months, perhaps for years), that's a heavy problem, especially if it takes a while for CCP to catch on.
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