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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:12:00 -
[1]
We are proud to bring you a letter from the members of the sixth Council of Stellar Management. See what CSM6 has in store for their term in this latest dev blog.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:17:00 -
[2]
Oh snap!
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:17:00 -
[3]
So like most of us believe its pointless?
You couldn't speed up that forum update for us could you?
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BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:25:00 -
[4]
I don't know why but the Goon invasion of the CSM seems to already gives its fruits ... Time dilatation seems something cool, indeed, but don't forget people that 70% of the eve universe isn't the fleet fight (but i agree, yes, it's time to fix things quick ;))
Nice communication btw, hope you'll stay unite.
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:28:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 11/04/2011 16:30:17 That's not the devblog you're looking for.
edit: still intriguing though. When I saw a player suggest something similar to that recently I thought he was making a joke. --
Originally by: CCP Elais
It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
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Daneel Trevize
Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:41:00 -
[6]
Great. Next up: Hybrids and Gal ganglinks? ECM? T3 SS swapping at POS? |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:44:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 11/04/2011 16:44:37 Its called a trial balloon.
and honestly if they can get it to work, its realy just "bullettime" for MMOs. Hmmm Fleetfights in slow mo. . . could this be the gap we need for Selective Systems Targeting? http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html Crumplecorn's DesuSigs
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Daneel Trevize Great. Next up: Hybrids and Gal ganglinks? ECM? T3 SS swapping at POS?
Most (maybe all) of these are already sitting in the CSM backlog waiting for CCP to act on them.
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Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:46:00 -
[9]
The link to the wiki is broken, it should be: https://wiki.goonfleet.com/MumblePublic -- Kismeteer, carebear extraordinaire
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Baihuigau
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:46:00 -
[10]
Interesting feature, it might just work, i think its worth the try.
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Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente The Crane Family
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 11/04/2011 16:50:05 So, CSM6 just advertised that it sees itself as nothing more than soundboard for CCP, and without struggle has therefore declared itself already quite useless as a pressure management instrument for CCP. Off to a good start. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist |
Rixiu
The Inuits
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:50:00 -
[12]
0.0 blobbers CSM focus on continue being able to blob... *shock*. The 0.0 sandbox totally isn't broken when it's easier to build a large sandcastle than a smaller one... right?
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Solo Drakban
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:51:00 -
[13]
Also, public-mumble.goonfleet.com is not a webserver, there is no http:// connectivity to it (the article seems to indicate otherwise by making it a hyperlink).
The following URL will automatically connect you to the mumble server and put you in the proper channel for the CSM chat.
mumble://mumble-public.goonfleet.com/CSM Fireside Chats?version=1.2.0&title=GoonFleetPublicMumbe
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Ionium
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:55:00 -
[14]
This smacks of Mittani and his arrogance... CSM 6 is turning out to be a waste of my effort to follow.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 11/04/2011 16:50:05 So, CSM6 just advertised that it sees itself as nothing more than soundboard for CCP, and without struggle has therefore declared itself already quite useless as a pressure management instrument for CCP. Off to a good start.
Do you really, TRULY believe that considering Mittani of all people is the CSM chair?
Read the letter again, without the usual lolinternetskimming.
___
Latest video: Future Proof (720p) 2D Animator |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 11/04/2011 16:50:05 So, CSM6 just advertised that it sees itself as nothing more than soundboard for CCP, and without struggle has therefore declared itself already quite useless as a pressure management instrument for CCP. Off to a good start.
Do you really, TRULY believe that considering Mittani of all people is the CSM chair?
Read the letter again, without the usual lolinternetskimming.
Yes I believe that, He is still bound by the NDA. He is still bound by the fact CCP has sole discretion over what they will or will not implement. He is still bound by the fact CCP has no obligation to contact/discuss/approach the CSM except during the specially prepared summits.
With the rollout of the changes to anomalies it is also clear CCP feels no obligation to tell or discuss major game changes with the CSM.
Therefore basically as I've always stated it is nothing more than a PR tool meant to make you think players have a voice when they have none.
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: BugraT WarheaD I don't know why but the Goon invasion of the CSM seems to already gives its fruits ... Time dilatation seems something cool, indeed, but don't forget people that 70% of the eve universe isn't the fleet fight (but i agree, yes, it's time to fix things quick ;))
Nice communication btw, hope you'll stay unite.
It's a topic CCP is already active in and invested in, thanks to CSM 5, so pretty much the only thing which CSM 6 can currently get a running start with. So it makes them look like they are having an awesome success to players. Don't forget, CSM 6 is quite political. I'm sure they can get a lot done if they play their cards right and do the work, but got to be honest, it is a political CSM.
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Dogo Duma
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 11/04/2011 16:50:05 So, CSM6 just advertised that it sees itself as nothing more than soundboard for CCP, and without struggle has therefore declared itself already quite useless as a pressure management instrument for CCP. Off to a good start.
Do you really, TRULY believe that considering Mittani of all people is the CSM chair?
Read the letter again, without the usual lolinternetskimming.
He is right however. It is perhaps an idea to read the previous CSM Summit minutes again, and hold the "soundboard" angle next to the responses by parts of CCP on the incarna situation, as well as tons of other simple things which for them became huge problems as they found it hard to differentiate between "work/position" and "person". Add to that the presenting by Mittens of how he and select people at CCP - who don't make any of the relevant decisions - have each other's backs, and voila.
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:23:00 -
[19]
Wait just a minute here. Didn't Hilmar make a lot of fuss about how important the relationship between the CSM and CCP is? How they love it when the players call bull**** on CCP?
How can CCP have no mandate to interact with the CSM if the CEO himself has been talking about how much of a benefit the CSM has been to CCP? CCP mentioned at fanfest how they like to embrace and engage with the CSM at every opportunity.
Why are you trying to make us settle for the level of response that Team Awesome gave to us and CSM5?
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:24:00 -
[20]
Quote: The Purpose and Limits of the CSM
There is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding about what the CSM is able to do.
That's where I stopped reading. I think you misunderstand the misunderstanding.
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mvrck22
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: El'Niaga He is still bound by the fact CCP has no obligation to contact/discuss/approach the CSM except during the specially prepared summits.
Which is bull. When the company ceo tells people that he wants ccp to deal with the csm round the clock, because they are now a stakeholder, and he recognises some interesting faces so it will be an interesting term but ccp will embrace the challenge structurally (as he laid out during fanfest), there's a question popping up on why Mittani is going against that.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:30:00 -
[22]
Time dilation?
I don't think people are frustrated because lag causes unfair conditions (lag doesn't, every random result evens out after a while, you win some, you lose some, nothing unfair about this) - players are frustrated because lag is boooooooooooring. There is nothing exciting about waiting 20 minutes for a cycle.
And it doesn't matter if I know that the other guy has to wait also 20 minutes, that doesn't make it less boring at all.
Time dilatation sounds not like a reasonable idea to me if all it does is just making people wait and wait. But before judging the whole concept, a devblog or some more information are necessary.
I'm pretty sceptical about this years CSM, but we will see. |
GIGAR
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:34:00 -
[23]
So, will we actually have CSM members that engage in discussions, or the standard CSM practice of posting once per month?
------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: GIGAR So, will we actually have CSM members that engage in discussions, or the standard CSM practice of posting once per month?
Posting has been somewhat interrupted by forum-related hilarity over the last few days...
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:53:00 -
[25]
Originally by: El'Niaga Yes I believe that, He is still bound by the NDA. He is still bound by the fact CCP has sole discretion over what they will or will not implement. He is still bound by the fact CCP has no obligation to contact/discuss/approach the CSM except during the specially prepared summits.
With the rollout of the changes to anomalies it is also clear CCP feels no obligation to tell or discuss major game changes with the CSM.
Therefore basically as I've always stated it is nothing more than a PR tool meant to make you think players have a voice when they have none.
You are right that CSM is a PR tool. I don't however agree that it is simply a soundboard for CCP. Though I could care less about CSM politics, a glance through previous minutes indicates that CCP takes CSM concerns seriously. But you are correct in that CCP is a private enterprise and as such is only as accountable to customers as they want to be within lawful limits.
I suggest you come to Fanfest next year to see for yourself just how seriously the company considers player/customer input. It doesn't mean everyone will get things their way.
___
Latest video: Future Proof (720p) 2D Animator |
gtiness
Sick Tight Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gnulpie Time dilation?
I don't think people are frustrated because lag causes unfair conditions (lag doesn't, every random result evens out after a while, you win some, you lose some, nothing unfair about this) - players are frustrated because lag is boooooooooooring. There is nothing exciting about waiting 20 minutes for a cycle.
And it doesn't matter if I know that the other guy has to wait also 20 minutes, that doesn't make it less boring at all.
And I have to wait 20 minutes for my guns to cycle because Joe TheReds guns are cycling at full speed (ie, taking all the CPU). Better if everyones guns take 5 minutes than some random, unlucky people DIAF and can do nothing about it while others lol around killing everything.
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1Of9
Gallente The Circle SOLAR WING
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:58:00 -
[27]
wtf .. mittany plan at work .. kill csm and eve. great, this is what we get for having morons elected.
get lost mitany, and stay out!
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:59:00 -
[28]
Great first letter to the player base from CSM6. I sure hope they're as effective as they say they'll be. So far the organization seems better than previous CSM's, but time will tell.
The time dilation idea is a very, very good one that should be pursued.
~Gnosis~ |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:00:00 -
[29]
Time Dilation = Awesome.
Also, link to the AH post.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Sinikka Huiputti
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:00:00 -
[30]
I haven't had lag since 2007 when I bought new computer. Except twice in pure blind when only 20 man blue fleet was in system and everyone kept just crashing.
Conclusion: lag doesn't exist.
Let's move into real fixes which make difference, plox. Like nerfing artillery, RR all around, cloak this and that, angel ships, railguns, lolsec space, dreadnaughts, POS's, jump bridges, jump freighters trololo, jump this and that....
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:01:00 -
[31]
This is ****ing sad. Eve when this council proves that its going to try harder than the CSM's before it, all too many of you vent your hatred over NC and Goon instead of even trying to have an open mind.
The naysayers need to grow up and stop acting like pouting children over the composition of CSM6 and start lending your support in an effort to improve EVE as a whole. To do otherwise hurts your own EVE experience as well as your fellow capsuleers.
CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the righteous for what they will do. |
The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:10:00 -
[32]
Will this accomplish anything? A very good question. We can spotlight issues and get them in front of the eyes of the playerbase, but that's no guarantee of success. We'll be able to judge if our efforts are worthwhile after a few months.
Judging by some of the posts above (the genos guy is p. funny) the very idea that there's a disconnect between what Hilmar says on stage during a shareholder presentation and the brass-tacks realities of the CSM is a shock. To folks like that, there's not much I can say or do.
For now, we're working on the quality of our spotlight itself, to go beyond dev blogs like this to ensure that our narrative is inescapable.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:11:00 -
[33]
Band-aid for the blob-monkeys lag whines is the first thing that comes to mind when you think about what will make Eve better?
Sure the dilation idea is pretty awesome and will do wonders for how large fights are perceived/conducted but it is treating the symptom so solves nothing in the long run .. Brainstorm ideas to get away from the horrendous EHP based sovereignty so the blob becomes optional rather than mandatory and your lag issue disappears forever AND Eve becomes more fun/involved for everyone.
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:13:00 -
[34]
Originally by: BugraT WarheaD I don't know why but the Goon invasion of the CSM seems to already gives its fruits ... Time dilatation seems something cool, indeed, but don't forget people that 70% of the eve universe isn't the fleet fight (but i agree, yes, it's time to fix things quick ;))
Nice communication btw, hope you'll stay unite.
This letter is already a show of collaboration and sign that we can work together. Each chairman has brought his touch to the CSMs over the years, and each was a reflection of the state the CSM was left in by their predecessors. This one is no exception.
Team gridlock works on performance, and always has since its inception, so this is no deviation and no diversion of "highsec resources" into 0.0, rather the pursuit of something we believe to be beneficial for the health of the game (more ships blown up because of large fights also means more money making for industrialists btw :p). ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:22:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 11/04/2011 18:24:52
Originally by: The Mittani Will this accomplish anything? A very good question. We can spotlight issues and get them in front of the eyes of the playerbase, but that's no guarantee of success. We'll be able to judge if our efforts are worthwhile after a few months.
Judging by some of the posts above (the genos guy is p. funny) the very idea that there's a disconnect between what Hilmar says on stage during a shareholder presentation and the brass-tacks realities of the CSM is a shock. To folks like that, there's not much I can say or do.
For now, we're working on the quality of our spotlight itself, to go beyond dev blogs like this to ensure that our narrative is inescapable.
When we elected the sixth CSM, we elected people to proactively pursue player interests, not to be sock puppets for the PR department.
While you can't decide what the development cycles are going to be spent on, it's your responsibility to tell CCP if what they're doing is a good idea, bad idea, a waste of time, or a good investment to make. If you're going to parrot off pre-existing work and just fill in the communications blanks in CCP's community interaction process, you are not only worthless as a representative of the players, but a tremendous step backwards against the hard earned progress of CSM 5.
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Demortes
Caldari Oracle Phoenix
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:24:00 -
[36]
I've been in a few large fleet battles, but not too many. This doesn't affect me much although during the Yulai incursion (pre-automated) the lag was pretty bad. As one poster stated, this isn't an unfair advantage, it's just BORING.
I didn't pay my plex/15 a month to sit around and wait for the computer on the other end resolve the firing of a missile.
As for those that say this is Goon at it's finest (worst?), look in the mirror and tell me you wouldn't do the same if you were Goon and up their... at least this isn't "Kill all alliances other than Goon."
The letter was informative and yet political. Effectively it needs to burn and fill out anew with real information.
Limits of CCP upon the CSM is certainly a matter of concern. Why have a CSM if CCP chooses not to follow it's guidelines from the players, so to speak? It only inflates costs, thus inflates fee's and causes issues with political relationships.
Summary: Naysayers, go away unless you provide constructive criticism, go getter, careful what you wish for.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:29:00 -
[37]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 11/04/2011 18:30:01
Originally by: Demortes
Limits of CCP upon the CSM is certainly a matter of concern. Why have a CSM if CCP chooses not to follow it's guidelines from the players, so to speak? It only inflates costs, thus inflates fee's and causes issues with political relationships.
And why exactly is that a concern? CCP should filter what the CSM has to say, implement what they agree with and discard what they don't. The CSM wasn't implemented so that Eve could have a direct democracy on game design decisions. The CSM was created to funnel the voice of the player base into a coherent discussion that could be had at the highest levels in CCP. As far as I can tell, that's exactly what's happening.
~Gnosis~ |
Shobon Welp
GoonFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:33:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Band-aid for the blob-monkeys lag whines is the first thing that comes to mind when you think about what will make Eve better?
Sure the dilation idea is pretty awesome and will do wonders for how large fights are perceived/conducted but it is treating the symptom so solves nothing in the long run .. Brainstorm ideas to get away from the horrendous EHP based sovereignty so the blob becomes optional rather than mandatory and your lag issue disappears forever AND Eve becomes more fun/involved for everyone.
You miss the point that Time Dilation is already on CCP's radar since it was CCP Veritas(?) who initially bought it up in the round table at Fanfest. CSM6 jumping behind a concept that the studio is already aware of is low-hanging fruit - its much easier to get results from giving encouragement and guidance for an existing project, than to beat your heads against a wall pushing a new idea that doesn't necessarily have any current backing within the Dev team.
This is pretty basic realpolitik in action here, I'm slightly embarrassed on your behalf that you haven't picked up on it.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:36:00 -
[39]
It wouldn't have been my first personal priority, but I can't deny the fact that time dilation would be a good thing for the game now and for the foreseeable future.
Dying in a laggy fight doesn't **** me off because I got killed. I'm in the early alphabet I almost always die in such situations and usually pretty early in the fight. The only real annoyance comes when you have to watch helplessly as your ship doesn't do anything or respond to your orders, but others seem to function without such handicaps. I would gladly trade it for a system where everything is in slow motion, but the action is much more predictable and total freezes are rare to non-existant. If it might be at all doable, go for it.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: J Kunjeh And why exactly is that a concern?...
Heh, yeah.
Like any Child-Parent relationship: Child wants all meals to be candy while parent wants child to have at least some veggies .. It is the same reason why direct democracy is nothing but a pretty idea, every voter would need to know everything about everything to make an informed decision. Without it it would be purely emotional votes based on self-interests (ie. mob rule)
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:40:00 -
[41]
time dilation is taken as a potential fix with others ideas, or it's already accepted and they will do it soon (tm) ? surprised that there is no hint n the blog about the big thread on AH about this idea btw ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Kaeda Maxwell
127th Angry Angels
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:42:00 -
[42]
Realpolitik
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:42:00 -
[43]
The new servers will help with lag, but only short term. Once we find we can put 2000 into a system and fight we'll do it.
Blob is never optional. In real warfare a small highly trained superbly equipped force can hold out against vastly superior numbers for at least some time. Almost all of those require the use of terrain and environmental effects to win battles. EVE doesn't really have any of that, space is lacking for the most part in environmental effects. We see some of this in missions but not in larger space. We lack other technologies like minefields that could help change the course of battles, removed long ago because of problems with folks setting up mines and then getting concorded. Warp Bubbles are nice, but why don't we have Subspace Bubbles (web effect in a bubble form), Minefields (damage in a bubble form) etc. To contain the blob you need more tools that the game doesn't have.
That's been the greatest flaw in the development the last 2 years. It has largely concentrated on niche areas and not on the mainstay of eve, space combat. There shouldn't be a year that new ships aren't introduced, and new modules to equip on them. Only by changing the dynamic constantly do you rise above the past.
When game systems are unbalanced like in any real world war when one side invents a better defense or a better weapon, the other side counters. Games get into the nerf cycle because it is easier, than following the logical procession.
Counter to Supercarriers.....Drone Interdiction....you need to make it easier to destroy drones. Probably could adapt the DIC and HIC for this. Just have these drone interdiction bubbles deal damage to Drones/Fighters/Fighter-Bombers in their area. Obviously they wouldn't die the second they entered for the larger ones but within short order they should. Another option is to build a counterpart, the superdreadnought whose goal is to kill the supercarrier. Maybe a ship with bonuses to smartbombs to help clear out drones might be a solution. Sadly based on past game performance they won't implement such even though they are the logical solution. Heck even a Heavy Battlecruiser using the tier 2 hulls and capable of carrying anti cap weapons could be a solution, there might be dozens more.
When you go to make Space Opera, which is what EVE is at its heart you have to continue to expand the horizons, not just nerf and tweak what exists. Once you start down the nerf path you never stop because every tweak changes the balance.
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:50:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Shobon Welp
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Band-aid for the blob-monkeys lag whines is the first thing that comes to mind when you think about what will make Eve better?
Sure the dilation idea is pretty awesome and will do wonders for how large fights are perceived/conducted but it is treating the symptom so solves nothing in the long run .. Brainstorm ideas to get away from the horrendous EHP based sovereignty so the blob becomes optional rather than mandatory and your lag issue disappears forever AND Eve becomes more fun/involved for everyone.
You miss the point that Time Dilation is already on CCP's radar since it was CCP Veritas(?) who initially bought it up in the round table at Fanfest. CSM6 jumping behind a concept that the studio is already aware of is low-hanging fruit - its much easier to get results from giving encouragement and guidance for an existing project, than to beat your heads against a wall pushing a new idea that doesn't necessarily have any current backing within the Dev team.
This is pretty basic realpolitik in action here, I'm slightly embarrassed on your behalf that you haven't picked up on it.
In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
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Havlentia Castigatrix
Gallente The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:53:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
So, time dilation. Think it's a good idea, or are you going to keep hammering at that messenger? ----- This space left intentionally blank |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Havlentia Castigatrix
Originally by: Evelgrivion
In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
So, time dilation. Think it's a good idea, or are you going to keep hammering at that messenger?
Nothing wrong with time dilation, but if it was already in the development pipeline, I don't want to hear about it from the CSM, I want to hear about it from CCP. What I want to hear out of the CSM is proof that they're acting to ensure that player interests are met to the benefit of the game.
If that means hammering at the messenger, so be it; CSM is a stakeholder, and you should expect them to act like one. That means being proactive and pursuing player interests, demanding answers for issues like the forum fiasco, and generally making sure that they get information on our behalf as soon as they possibly can.
They shouldn't be waiting in the wings.
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Seymore Graves
The New Era C0NVICTED
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:56:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Evelgrivion In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
Or alternatively the CSM is working towards a realistic and attainable goal that is popular with a large portion of f the nullsec player base and has at least some measure of backing at CCP. Unlike some former CSMs who have just spewed blobs of differing issues out into the forums, resulting the current backlog.
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orphenshadow
Gallente Easy Co. Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:57:00 -
[48]
it's funny seeing all the pubbies complain about blobbing as if they forget the fact that for many of us eve was marketed as "epic space battles."
I love small gang as much as anyone. But there is something to be said about 2000 dudes in one system destroying each other in glorious space combat.
Would love to see that without lag, but that's going to be virtually impossible. they fix lag for 1000 people we cram in 2000 more.
The current system has a ton of flaws that many alliances have taken exploited of for ages. If I'm going to be moving at 5fps and lagging. I would much rather it be on an even playing field.
+1 Easy Co. |
Wirbin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Evelgrivion In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
Less backing, more keeping ccp from ****ing it up. Lets talk about how they should accomplish that!
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:00:00 -
[50]
Edited by: E man Industries on 11/04/2011 19:04:09 Even as someone in 0.0 I can't say this matters to me.
Never been a part of these huge huge lag inducing fights. I imagine over 90% of eve has not eather. That said it does need to be fixrd but hardly #1 priority.
Also focusing on a solution that a dev sugested without any real details into how feasable it is may nto be the best...maybe dialation won't work for X reason.
Focusing ona more mainstream issue would give the CSM more credability rather than focusing on what gets mittens hot in the pants.
That said I hope he gets what he wants because the CSM does need more power. Also relizing mittens cares nothing for the smaller eve entities(nor should he or has he claimed to). He is focused on 0.0 and what it means to the larg powerblocks. Hope he recalls the little guys out in 0.0....getting bored of world of motherships.
______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:00:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Seymore Graves Edited by: Seymore Graves on 11/04/2011 18:56:56
Originally by: Evelgrivion In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
Or alternatively the CSM is working towards a realistic and attainable goal that is popular with a large portion of the nullsec player base and has at least some measure of backing at CCP. Unlike some former CSMs who have just spewed blobs of differing issues out into the forums, resulting the current issue backlog.
a goal achieved already, since ccp's commitment to the challenge, pre csm 6. I agree csm6 will have to monitor it, report on it, discuss it, but it isn't a victory topic anymore. It is an active project, so to speak.
As for backing at CCP, that is always up in the air. This is business, if resources have to be reallocated because some financial or marketing or business development research shows that one or the other project will be better in prospects, things will shift to that. So, that is something for any csm to monitor.
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:01:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Seymore Graves Edited by: Seymore Graves on 11/04/2011 18:56:56
Originally by: Evelgrivion In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
Or alternatively the CSM is working towards a realistic and attainable goal that is popular with a large portion of the nullsec player base and has at least some measure of backing at CCP. Unlike some former CSMs who have just spewed blobs of differing issues out into the forums, resulting the current issue backlog.
As mentioned in my previous post, CSM6 has absolutely nothing to do with Time Dilation. It was being developed at the time the fifth CSM was in office, and it was first presented at that time.
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:02:00 -
[53]
Originally by: BugraT WarheaD I don't know why but the Goon invasion of the CSM seems to already gives its fruits ... Time dilatation seems something cool,
It does, but it was suggested and began development long before CSM 6 was elected, so I'm not seeing the connection other then them championing an existing project (I definitely agree with them championing it though, it's a great idea)
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:02:00 -
[54]
MY TIMEDILATION BUTAN
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Eileene
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:04:00 -
[55]
Time dilation is a cure to symptoms and not to the cause. It may be a solution for short timeframe. I think most of CCP efforts should go to fighting source of lag. Which means for example: multithreaded code for sol.
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Gold Archer
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:09:00 -
[56]
I'd like to see a commitment from CCP to aggressively upgrade the server architecture at the same time that this is implemented. I worry that "oh, we don't have to get new servers, time dilation will keep the fleet fights going" will become the new mantra if that feature comes into play. Time dilation is just a band-aid, albeit potentially a very good band-aid; work should never end on upgrading the underlying nodes with the hope of a future where time dilation is no longer necessary.
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Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:12:00 -
[57]
Time Dilation is a fantastic idea and I'm looking forward to seeing CCP and CSM collaborating to make it a reality. Thank you to everyone involved.
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frank reynolds
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:14:00 -
[58]
I'd like to see a commitment to CCP having arcade games in the stations for incarna so there's something fun to do there, 25 isk per play
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Aryndel Vyst
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:16:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 11/04/2011 18:59:10
Originally by: Havlentia Castigatrix
Originally by: Evelgrivion
In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
So, time dilation. Think it's a good idea, or are you going to keep hammering at that messenger?
Nothing wrong with time dilation, but if it was already in the development pipeline. Time Dilation was presented during discussions over the term with CSM5, and it was a topic at fanfest roundtables. With a project so far along, I don't want to hear about it from the CSM, I want to hear about it from CCP.
What I want to hear out of the CSM is proof that they're acting to ensure that player interests are met to the benefit of the game. If that means hammering at the messenger, so be it. CSM is a stakeholder, and you, the player, should expect the CSM to act like a stakeholder. That means being proactive and pursuing player interests, demanding answers for issues like the forum fiasco, and generally making sure that they get information on our behalf as soon as they possibly can.
They shouldn't be waiting in the wings.
Hey basement dwelling neckbeard. How about you take a breath and quit sperging over the first correspondence over a CSM that has been in power for like a week. Good lord what is wrong with you? I realize you're a special little snowflake but the CSM isn't goddamn union leadership.
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Jonathan Malcom
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Seymore Graves Edited by: Seymore Graves on 11/04/2011 18:59:42 Edited by: Seymore Graves on 11/04/2011 18:56:56
Originally by: Evelgrivion In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
Or alternatively the CSM is working towards a realistic and attainable goal that is popular with a large portion of the nullsec player base and has at least some measure of backing at CCP. Unlike some former CSMs who have just spewed blobs of differing issues out into the forums, resulting in the current issue backlog.
Empty quoting like a boss.
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:18:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Nothing wrong with time dilation, but if it was already in the development pipeline. Time Dilation was presented during discussions over the term with CSM5, and it was a topic at fanfest roundtables. With a project so far along, I don't want to hear about it from the CSM, I want to hear about it from CCP.
What I want to hear out of the CSM is proof that they're acting to ensure that player interests are met to the benefit of the game. If that means hammering at the messenger, so be it. CSM is a stakeholder, and you, the player, should expect the CSM to act like a stakeholder. That means being proactive and pursuing player interests, demanding answers for issues like the forum fiasco, and generally making sure that they get information on our behalf as soon as they possibly can.
They shouldn't be waiting in the wings.
I'm sympathetic with your stance, since I was on CSM 5 and indeed discussed those things. However I know nothing of that project being "so far along", hence our emphasis.
There's 2 ways you can hear about it from CCP. They can decide on their own to assign resources to it or we, CSM 6, can talk them into assigning resources to it. If they already are doing the former, our interest is justified but unneeded, in the latter case, our efforts are needed.
Nothing to lose here.
It's actually us being proactive rather than waiting to find out resources have been assigned to something else and then *****ing to get the allocation changed. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:18:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
When we elected the sixth CSM, we elected people to proactively pursue player interests, not to be sock puppets for the PR department.
While you can't decide what the development cycles are going to be spent on, it's your responsibility to tell CCP if what they're doing is a good idea, bad idea, a waste of time, or a good investment to make. If you're going to parrot off pre-existing work and just fill in the communications blanks in CCP's community interaction process, you are not only worthless as a representative of the players, but a tremendous step backwards against the hard earned progress of CSM 5.
Actually there's no 'we elected'. /You/ voted for someone. Some people voted for me. I doubt, given the hysteria and entitlement in your post, that you voted for me. You expect us to throw tantrums at CCP, to issue toothless 'demands' and perhaps even to issue a open letter against Incarna. That will not happen. If you wish to pine away for your CSM5 heroes, by all means keep crying into your cups; it only adds to csm.txt.
Time Dilation is a mote in Gridlock's eye. We hope to see it become something more than that, and be prioritized.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:19:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gnulpie Time dilation?
I don't think people are frustrated because lag causes unfair conditions (lag doesn't, every random result evens out after a while, you win some, you lose some, nothing unfair about this) - players are frustrated because lag is boooooooooooring. There is nothing exciting about waiting 20 minutes for a cycle.
And it doesn't matter if I know that the other guy has to wait also 20 minutes, that doesn't make it less boring at all.
Time dilatation sounds not like a reasonable idea to me if all it does is just making people wait and wait. But before judging the whole concept, a devblog or some more information are necessary.
I'm pretty sceptical about this years CSM, but we will see.
In most every fight of 500+ players, whoever is jumping in to an already loaded system is at a major disadvantage. Plenty of conflicts are won by simply showing up first.
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Wirbin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:20:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: Seymore Graves Edited by: Seymore Graves on 11/04/2011 18:56:56
Originally by: Evelgrivion In other words, CSM 6 is backing ideas already popular within CCP to make themselves look like they've accomplished a whole bunch of stuff.
Or alternatively the CSM is working towards a realistic and attainable goal that is popular with a large portion of the nullsec player base and has at least some measure of backing at CCP. Unlike some former CSMs who have just spewed blobs of differing issues out into the forums, resulting the current issue backlog.
As mentioned in my previous post, CSM6 has absolutely nothing to do with Time Dilation. It was being developed at the time the fifth CSM was in office, and it was first presented at that time.
What the ****? CSM6 seems to be about literally nothing else.
Who cares who posted it first? Time Dilation is the most important thing and what the CSM6 should be focusing their time on it.
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:22:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Eileene Time dilation is a cure to symptoms and not to the cause. It may be a solution for short timeframe. I think most of CCP efforts should go to fighting source of lag. Which means for example: multithreaded code for sol.
Yes and also no. It is symptomatic, but Time Dilation allows a "graceful degredation" scenario, meaning that there's not some easy-to-calculate tipping-point at which combat is impossible. This reduces the incentive to use the "OK let's pack x number of guys into this system so the node falls over and our CSAA/Station/whatever is saved" tactic.
And at the end of the day, if thousands of CCP's customers wish to cram themselves into a single system and slug it out together, then CCP should provide that option if it's reasonably possible.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
The Mittani
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:22:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shobon Welp
You miss the point that Time Dilation is already on CCP's radar since it was CCP Veritas(?) who initially bought it up in the round table at Fanfest. CSM6 jumping behind a concept that the studio is already aware of is low-hanging fruit - its much easier to get results from giving encouragement and guidance for an existing project, than to beat your heads against a wall pushing a new idea that doesn't necessarily have any current backing within the Dev team.
This is pretty basic realpolitik in action here, I'm slightly embarrassed on your behalf that you haven't picked up on it.
Basically this. Time Dilation is something which could exist, we think, and actually get implemented. It however can use some 'help' from the CSM since it's not currently being given the level of prioritization it deserves.
We believe that it's the best available fix for the lag which impacts large fleet fights, and we want it to actually survive contact with middle management, rather than dying on the vine - a fate all too common with other good ideas who do not get publicized as well as this one.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Needa3
Minmatar BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:22:00 -
[67]
well the time thing sounds good. i'm surprised the CSM can do something right
now: get rid of jumpbridges and get Eve back up to a decent IQ level, jumpbridges are for WoW-n00bs
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:26:00 -
[68]
There is indeed a difference though between "epic Space Battles" and blobbing. We would all like the ability to launch massive amounts of players into a galactic battle in some epic space war, but true blobbing on the other hand is a direct attempt to toss as many players into a fight as possible with the intent of creating massive amounts of lag in order to crap out the server and cause havoc. My only fear with time dilation is that while it could fix the former problem, it does nothing to keep those intent on causing a **** storm from throwing even more players in a battle until the server craps out again.
The only solution to prevent the latter is for alliances to use some ****ing self control. That combined with Time dilation could indeed solve the issue.
CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the righteous for what they will do. |
Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:26:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Needa3 well the time thing sounds good. i'm surprised the CSM can do something right
now: get rid of jumpbridges and get Eve back up to a decent IQ level, jumpbridges are for WoW-n00bs
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:29:00 -
[70]
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Shobon Welp
You miss the point that Time Dilation is already on CCP's radar since it was CCP Veritas(?) who initially bought it up in the round table at Fanfest. CSM6 jumping behind a concept that the studio is already aware of is low-hanging fruit - its much easier to get results from giving encouragement and guidance for an existing project, than to beat your heads against a wall pushing a new idea that doesn't necessarily have any current backing within the Dev team.
This is pretty basic realpolitik in action here, I'm slightly embarrassed on your behalf that you haven't picked up on it.
Basically this. Time Dilation is something which could exist, we think, and actually get implemented. It however can use some 'help' from the CSM since it's not currently being given the level of prioritization it deserves.
We believe that it's the best available fix for the lag which impacts large fleet fights, and we want it to actually survive contact with middle management, rather than dying on the vine - a fate all too common with other good ideas who do not get publicized as well as this one.
The problem is scaleability.
Let's say if you double module time that enables say 900 to fight without lag.
If you then double it again you might get to 1200.
Problem I see is that there are fights beyond those numbers. Once you get past about 5 minute activation times you'll hit the boredom zone that affects many that keeps them from mining ice for instance (and thus keeps ice artificially high).
The servers that are suppose to be coming will help. But like I said a page or two back is the game is lacking in the tools, ships, mods etc that would actually make more tactical and strategic options in game.
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Wirbin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:30:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Needa3 well the time thing sounds good. i'm surprised the CSM can do something right
now: get rid of jumpbridges and get Eve back up to a decent IQ level, jumpbridges are for WoW-n00bs
No, now work on time dilation. You make it sound as if it's completed already and it's time for the next thing.
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Arakkis Melanogaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:32:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Wait just a minute here. Didn't Hilmar make a lot of fuss about how important the relationship between the CSM and CCP is? How they love it when the players call bull**** on CCP?
How can CCP have no mandate to interact with the CSM if the CEO himself has been talking about how much of a benefit the CSM has been to CCP? CCP mentioned at fanfest how they like to embrace and engage with the CSM at every opportunity.
Why are you trying to make us settle for the level of response that Team Awesome gave to us and CSM5?
GUYS GUYS THE CEO OF A COMPANY SAID SOMETHING IT MUST BE 100% TRUE |
Richard Bong
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:33:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Aryndel Vyst
Hey basement dwelling neckbeard. How about you take a breath and quit sperging over the first correspondence over a CSM that has been in power for like a week. Good lord what is wrong with you? I realize you're a special little snowflake but the CSM isn't goddamn union leadership.
haha but he demands ACTION vague yet decisive ACTION. He can be a mouth breather if it get his call to ACTION heard too.
Time Dilation sounds great because at least i know modules are going to work and my ship will respond.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:33:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Katsura Kotonoha
Originally by: Needa3 well the time thing sounds good. i'm surprised the CSM can do something right
now: get rid of jumpbridges and get Eve back up to a decent IQ level, jumpbridges are for WoW-n00bs
Ha, I was gonna post the same reaction and you beat me to it. Whatcha gonna do, haterz is gonna hate.
CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the righteous for what they will do. |
Tiet Goldstar
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:34:00 -
[75]
Originally by: El'Niaga
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Shobon Welp
You miss the point that Time Dilation is already on CCP's radar since it was CCP Veritas(?) who initially bought it up in the round table at Fanfest. CSM6 jumping behind a concept that the studio is already aware of is low-hanging fruit - its much easier to get results from giving encouragement and guidance for an existing project, than to beat your heads against a wall pushing a new idea that doesn't necessarily have any current backing within the Dev team.
This is pretty basic realpolitik in action here, I'm slightly embarrassed on your behalf that you haven't picked up on it.
Basically this. Time Dilation is something which could exist, we think, and actually get implemented. It however can use some 'help' from the CSM since it's not currently being given the level of prioritization it deserves.
We believe that it's the best available fix for the lag which impacts large fleet fights, and we want it to actually survive contact with middle management, rather than dying on the vine - a fate all too common with other good ideas who do not get publicized as well as this one.
The problem is scaleability.
Let's say if you double module time that enables say 900 to fight without lag.
If you then double it again you might get to 1200.
Problem I see is that there are fights beyond those numbers. Once you get past about 5 minute activation times you'll hit the boredom zone that affects many that keeps them from mining ice for instance (and thus keeps ice artificially high).
The servers that are suppose to be coming will help. But like I said a page or two back is the game is lacking in the tools, ships, mods etc that would actually make more tactical and strategic options in game.
You need to have a good foundation before you build. Server upgrades + time dialation is the foundation so that future changes can flourish. I sleep in a bed of isk... naked. |
Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:36:00 -
[76]
Originally by: mvrck22
Originally by: El'Niaga He is still bound by the fact CCP has no obligation to contact/discuss/approach the CSM except during the specially prepared summits.
Which is bull. When the company ceo tells people that he wants ccp to deal with the csm round the clock, because they are now a stakeholder, and he recognises some interesting faces so it will be an interesting term but ccp will embrace the challenge structurally (as he laid out during fanfest), there's a question popping up on why Mittani is going against that.
the company ceo is just that, a ceo. an inherently pr/business/bigpicture position that has no everyday, in-the-trenches-style game dev responsibilities. he's too busy with ceo-schtuff to be bothered with it. as such, as a ceo he is *supposed* to say that he wants his company to deal with the player-voted representative group round the clock to make things better. and his company does that, to the best of their ability, within the confines of one simple fact:
the csm are not game devs and ccp has no plans to make them game devs.
they are, as previously stated, a sounding board for ccp to use when they want to bounce an idea off of someone. big decisions are never going to go *thru* the csm; big decision will only go *past* the csm.
yes, occasionally, a dev will hear what they think is a truly great idea from the csm, and it will get implemented. but this is not the norm and it never will be.
the best we can really hope for is that when a ccp dev looks at his team's to-do list, and cant decide what to tackle next, he touches bases with the csm and asks, 'what should we do first? blaster balancing? or assault ship bonuses?' ...and *then* listens to the response.
really, we have to remember that, no matter how much we enjoy playing this game, it is not 'ours.' it's ccp's. to develop and improve (or, tbh, destroy), as they see fit. personally, im glad to see that mittens and the rest of the csm realize this and are still willing to move forward and do the best they can within the confines of their role, however limited it may be.
to ccp: i love this game, and thank you for even *trying* to stay in touch with the players thru the csm. its far more than i would have reasonably expected...
to the csm: good luck! yer gonna need it! __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:36:00 -
[77]
Originally by: El'Niaga
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Shobon Welp
You miss the point that Time Dilation is already on CCP's radar since it was CCP Veritas(?) who initially bought it up in the round table at Fanfest. CSM6 jumping behind a concept that the studio is already aware of is low-hanging fruit - its much easier to get results from giving encouragement and guidance for an existing project, than to beat your heads against a wall pushing a new idea that doesn't necessarily have any current backing within the Dev team.
This is pretty basic realpolitik in action here, I'm slightly embarrassed on your behalf that you haven't picked up on it.
Basically this. Time Dilation is something which could exist, we think, and actually get implemented. It however can use some 'help' from the CSM since it's not currently being given the level of prioritization it deserves.
We believe that it's the best available fix for the lag which impacts large fleet fights, and we want it to actually survive contact with middle management, rather than dying on the vine - a fate all too common with other good ideas who do not get publicized as well as this one.
The problem is scaleability.
Let's say if you double module time that enables say 900 to fight without lag.
If you then double it again you might get to 1200.
Problem I see is that there are fights beyond those numbers. Once you get past about 5 minute activation times you'll hit the boredom zone that affects many that keeps them from mining ice for instance (and thus keeps ice artificially high).
The servers that are suppose to be coming will help. But like I said a page or two back is the game is lacking in the tools, ships, mods etc that would actually make more tactical and strategic options in game.
But not all fights are always scaled up to whatever arbitrary number the server chock on. Just because there are fights with 1200 guys isn't a reason to increase the "Works OK" level from 400 to 600 or whatever. In short, not being able to completely solve a problem is not a reason to not even try to mitigate it.
And really as far as lag is concerned, everything solution that CCP implement will be a "mitigation" strategy. It's inherent to the problem. Even if Intel release a Petahertz CPU tomorrow, there will still be lag until every other component of the infrastructure is similarly improved.
Also: I dont really give a monkeys who's idea it was, so long as it gets implemented. As correctly said above: this is "low hanging fruit" and the CSM can make itself very useful by making sure it doesn't get abandoned.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Richard Bong
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:37:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Needa3 well the time thing sounds good. i'm surprised the CSM can do something right
now: get rid of jumpbridges and get Eve back up to a decent IQ level, jumpbridges are for WoW-n00bs
I'm embarrassed for you
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Jonathan Malcom
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:38:00 -
[79]
While we're in the remote vicinity of the subject, I'd like the time dialation effect to slow visual effects down as well. Not just increase the time between interactions, but actually display everything in slow motion on the client side. Projectile effects, missle effect, everything.
That would be ****ing cool to watch. Make it happen, CSM.
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:39:00 -
[80]
I'm seeing a lot of BAWWWW YOU ARE A STAKEHOLDER crap on Failheap. Let's deal with this.
The CSM is "a stakeholder in the scrum process". The Scrum process is a software development technique and nothing more; 'stakeholder' means 'someone you confer with as part of a Scrum cycle'.
Babbys are commonly seeing 'stakeholder' and thinking it means 'corporate stakeholder'. I see a lot of Evelgrion or whatever posts going YOU NEED TO HOLD CCP ACCOUNTABLE YOU ARE STAKEHOLDERS RARRR - which means 1. this guy is a toolshed 2. 'scrum stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder' are being conflated.
Don't be that guy. The CSM doesn't have status as a corporate stakeholder. Outside of the Scrum cycle - where we have our company-appointed advocate, who sits in on the cycle and offers our views - we can influence, message, and use the ability to get our narrative in front of the playerbase to attempt to accomplish ends.
Also, a lot of whining about how we aren't discussing the forums screwup - which was hilarious and awful - in this letter. The letter was written before the forums imploded, it takes CCP a few days to approve and upload dev blogs through their formal channels.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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GIGAR
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:40:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: GIGAR So, will we actually have CSM members that engage in discussions, or the standard CSM practice of posting once per month?
Posting has been somewhat interrupted by forum-related hilarity over the last few days...
I'm talking in general. CSM goes something like this: - First period of time they're very active, posting and answering lots of forum posts. - Then they get bored, or stop posting and discussing (this happens about 2 weeks in). - Nothing happens until the next election.
I've seen posts in the Assembly Hall with +20 pages and 3 CSM replies (two by the same person, and 1 more saying "yes good idea") - that's just not fracking good enough.
I'm obviously not going to point fingers at the new guys (and girls), just pointing out that (IMO) being a CSM member should be a serious commitment, not some side-project for the lulz. Post more! (and even if it's a topic that's been up 1 billion times, and declined 1 billion times, just link one of the 1 billion topics and we'll know you read the topics/posts and are, yeknow, COMMUNICATING WITH THE PLAYERBASE)
Just saying
------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy |
Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:40:00 -
[82]
Originally by: The Mittani Actually there's no 'we elected'. /You/ voted for someone. Some people voted for me. I doubt, given the hysteria and entitlement in your post, that you voted for me. You expect us to throw tantrums at CCP, to issue toothless 'demands' and perhaps even to issue a open letter against Incarna. That will not happen. If you wish to pine away for your CSM5 heroes, by all means keep crying into your cups; it only adds to csm.txt.
Time Dilation is a mote in Gridlock's eye. We hope to see it become something more than that, and be prioritized.
You're a talented politician, Mittens, but tantrums, Incarna, CSM5 and Time Dilation are not the message we're paying attention to.
While you don't have development teams that have to answer to you and throwing tantrums won't help make things happen, what you do have is the CEO mandated attention of every development team at CCP. Hilmar wants CCP's employees to listen to the CSM. Beginning the term with "we promise nothing because CCP doesn't have to listen to us" is not a good way to kick things off. That's just setting people up to expect no tangible results, and I call shenanigans on that.
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:43:00 -
[83]
You really want me to click a goobswarm link? I hope that isn't going to steal my characters and upload child **** to my pc.
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Cyaxares II
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:44:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 11/04/2011 19:44:59
forget it
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:45:00 -
[85]
Originally by: The Mittani I'm seeing a lot of BAWWWW YOU ARE A STAKEHOLDER crap on Failheap. Let's deal with this.
The CSM is "a stakeholder in the scrum process". The Scrum process is a software development technique and nothing more; 'stakeholder' means 'someone you confer with as part of a Scrum cycle'.
Babbys are commonly seeing 'stakeholder' and thinking it means 'corporate stakeholder'. I see a lot of Evelgrion or whatever posts going YOU NEED TO HOLD CCP ACCOUNTABLE YOU ARE STAKEHOLDERS RARRR - which means 1. this guy is a toolshed 2. 'scrum stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder' are being conflated.
Don't be that guy. The CSM doesn't have status as a corporate stakeholder. Outside of the Scrum cycle - where we have our company-appointed advocate, who sits in on the cycle and offers our views - we can influence, message, and use the ability to get our narrative in front of the playerbase to attempt to accomplish ends.
Also, a lot of whining about how we aren't discussing the forums screwup - which was hilarious and awful - in this letter. The letter was written before the forums imploded, it takes CCP a few days to approve and upload dev blogs through their formal channels.
I'm not sure why you even bother responding to these miscreants, its painfully obvious they've already made up their minds concerning anything CSM6 plans to do. You could **** gold for them and physically transport them from their mother's basements to the Universe of EVE and they would still ***** because their eyes are shut and their minds are closed. They've deemed you the devil and anything you do will be looked upon with suspicion, envy and hatred.
You guys have better stuff to do and bigger problems to solve than dealing with capsule trash.
Carry on CSM and bring the problems of the people to the tyrannical heads of state.
CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
The Mittani
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:46:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
You're a talented politician, Mittens, but tantrums, Incarna, CSM5 and Time Dilation are not the message we're paying attention to.
While you don't have development teams that have to answer to you and throwing tantrums won't help make things happen, what you do have is the CEO mandated attention of every development team at CCP. Hilmar wants CCP's employees to listen to the CSM. Beginning the term with "we promise nothing because CCP doesn't have to listen to us" is not a good way to kick things off. That's just setting people up to expect no tangible results, and I call shenanigans on that.
I too believe things that a CEO says during a videotaped shareholder presentation and take them at face value. What, you didn't realize that 'CCP Presents' was a shareholder presentation? Heh.
I don't have a direct line to Hilmar. If I did, I could probably make this sucker sprout wings and fly. Maybe if I can get some time to chill with him and knock back a lot of beer and we establish a relationship, he and I could be cool bros and get some stuff done.
In the meantime, the CSM deals with the tools it actually has before it: two staffers in the Research and Statistics department and a couple of dev-blog pipelines, plus the summit which is the Big Thing, the major opportunity to influence the way game designers think.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:47:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat You really want me to click a goobswarm link? I hope that isn't going to steal my characters and upload child **** to my pc.
Don't worry, we can do that even if you don't click.
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:47:00 -
[88]
Also I would like to see force projection issues resolved with jump/titan bridge nerfs and perhaps cap jump range nerfs along with that cyno spool up idea the dev was talking about before we see anything like this which gives blobs even more advantage.
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Wirbin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:48:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Originally by: The Mittani Actually there's no 'we elected'. /You/ voted for someone. Some people voted for me. I doubt, given the hysteria and entitlement in your post, that you voted for me. You expect us to throw tantrums at CCP, to issue toothless 'demands' and perhaps even to issue a open letter against Incarna. That will not happen. If you wish to pine away for your CSM5 heroes, by all means keep crying into your cups; it only adds to csm.txt.
Time Dilation is a mote in Gridlock's eye. We hope to see it become something more than that, and be prioritized.
You're a talented politician, Mittens, but tantrums, Incarna, CSM5 and Time Dilation are not the message we're paying attention to.
While you don't have development teams that have to answer to you and throwing tantrums won't help make things happen, what you do have is the CEO mandated attention of every development team at CCP. Hilmar wants CCP's employees to listen to the CSM. Beginning the term with "we promise nothing because CCP doesn't have to listen to us" is not a good way to kick things off. That's just setting people up to expect no tangible results, and I call shenanigans on that.
There's that "we" thing again...
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:48:00 -
[90]
Originally by: LordElfa
I'm not sure why you even bother responding to these miscreants, its painfully obvious they've already made up their minds concerning anything CSM6 plans to do. You could **** gold for them and physically transport them from their mother's basements to the Universe of EVE and they would still ***** because their eyes are shut and their minds are closed. They've deemed you the devil and anything you do will be looked upon with suspicion, envy and hatred.
You guys have better stuff to do and bigger problems to solve than dealing with capsule trash.
Carry on CSM and bring the problems of the people to the tyrannical heads of state.
Narrative control is one of the tools we do have available to us, so we're using it. It's also important to ram home the difference between 'scrum dev stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder' as part of expectation management; people like that idiot think we can offer the moon and stars partially because the actual powers and capabilities of the CSM have been so poorly communicated, both by CCP and by past CSMs.
To be fair to past CSMs, the actual CSM itself has evolved a lot and what CSM1 was is very different to CSM4 or CSM5 in terms of purpose, function and aims.
Basically he's a tool and I agree, but I want folks to know the difference between 'scrum stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder'.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Havlentia Castigatrix
Gallente The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:52:00 -
[91]
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: LordElfa
I'm not sure why you even bother responding to these miscreants, its painfully obvious they've already made up their minds concerning anything CSM6 plans to do. You could **** gold for them and physically transport them from their mother's basements to the Universe of EVE and they would still ***** because their eyes are shut and their minds are closed. They've deemed you the devil and anything you do will be looked upon with suspicion, envy and hatred.
You guys have better stuff to do and bigger problems to solve than dealing with capsule trash.
Carry on CSM and bring the problems of the people to the tyrannical heads of state.
Narrative control is one of the tools we do have available to us, so we're using it. It's also important to ram home the difference between 'scrum dev stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder' as part of expectation management; people like that idiot think we can offer the moon and stars partially because the actual powers and capabilities of the CSM have been so poorly communicated, both by CCP and by past CSMs.
To be fair to past CSMs, the actual CSM itself has evolved a lot and what CSM1 was is very different to CSM4 or CSM5 in terms of purpose, function and aims.
Basically he's a tool and I agree, but I want folks to know the difference between 'scrum stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder'.
Feet, meet fire.
Hopefully this is the kinda representation that we've been looking for since the CSM was set up and soft-soaped liberally with swag and free trips to Iceland until we had the wonderful experience of seeing that one developmental schedule that pushed everyone over the edge.
Or you could leave it a smoking crater, but at this point it would be an improvement either way.
----- This space left intentionally blank |
Arakkis Melanogaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:53:00 -
[92]
Everything a CEO says is true - Kenneth Lay, 2001 |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:54:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat Also I would like to see force projection issues resolved with jump/titan bridge nerfs and perhaps cap jump range nerfs along with that cyno spool up idea the dev was talking about before we see anything like this which gives blobs even more advantage.
Nerfing jump bridges and titans will not solve Power Projections. Nerfing jump distances will not solve power projection. Such projection existed before hand and will exist afterwards. It would cut down on combat not increase it (after all if it takes 2 hours to get to the fight, that's less time to fight).
The answer does not lay in nerfing, it never works because no matter what you nerf something is always left in an alpha position. That's what's wrong in todays world folks think there should be balance in all things, but there shouldn't be, it goes to the opposite of the natural order.
What you need are tools that can be built in empire that can help nullify the supercarriers. Like I suggested earlier. Without that you can't move from empire to 0.0 without the support of one of the existing blocks because they'll grind you to dust. They put the time into it, so why shouldn't they be able to?
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Zeran Vyst
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:56:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat You really want me to click a goobswarm link? I hope that isn't going to steal my characters and upload child **** to my pc.
Are you worried we're going to download the child **** that's already there Mr. Deepthroat?
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Alemana Hockeystick
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:58:00 -
[95]
Originally by: The Mittani
Primary target is fleet lag. Guys, put your DPS on primary.
Grunts: but I want that pod KM!
LOL
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 19:59:00 -
[96]
Interesting method on inserting confusion on the difference between stakeholder and corporate stakeholder, by attempting to present it as the same thing.
But you are right, it is not the same thing. CSM is not a corporate stakeholder. Maybe it will become one some day, who knows, Hilmar once said that the power and definition of the CSM is in the hands of the CSM and how it and the customers get to work with that. We will see, that is perhaps for a future.
But CSM is a stakeholder, within the development process. Sure, CCP applied the status without fully considering what this would mean, but that is fine. After all CSM started out as an experiment, so this is a path of mutual exploration for both the road and the horizon.
But relax, people do understand that this is in many respects a political CSM, that is fine, no need to dig another trench. Really. People deal with that, and to a degree embrace it, so tis all good.
CSM does not need a status as a corporate stakeholder to be the focused voice and representation of CCP's customers - to a degree regardless of whether they vote or not. Once elections are over, and people get to work, it is a very different ballgame. Suddenly big pictures take over, which is only natural. Myriads of small issues, can pollute the waters, which is where crowdsourcing comes in - if CSM wants to do any work. It is also where special interests and attempts at social engineering fail, because of those bigger pictures, regardless of who has who's back or how far back they go. Too much tinfoil in politics and this universe alike. As long as there is transparancy, open and consistant discussion along every axis, it'll be fine.
CSM as a stakeholder, functions just fine. What you might be missing, is some concern among people about missing in its entirety the presence of concepts in the letter which they have seen to be effective during the course of CSM 4 and 5. Yes, things change and evolve, perhaps, but I am sure you understand the concern of people for reinventing the wheel. After all they have kinda seen that from CCP quite a few times in different manners, and that hasn't been a comforting thing, so to speak.
So yes, as a stakeholder, part of the job is indeed to hold CCP accountable. That is not a bad thing, really. The same works the other way around. Think about it, CCP holds CSM accountable, it expects a professional approach, and an argumentative approach. There were days were folks would slam a fist on a table, or engage in emo, but those days ended when CSM became a stakeholder. It is a knife which cuts in more ways than one, and the choice exists whether to use the knife to stab, or to eat with. I'm sure you catch my drift here.
This accountability, is a very simple thing. But when people have seen demonstrable use, and suddenly see or perceive an absence of it, you cannot be surprised that they suddenly look up and wonder.
Originally by: The Mittani The CSM doesn't have status as a corporate stakeholder. Outside of the Scrum cycle - where we have our company-appointed advocate, who sits in on the cycle and offers our views - we can influence, message, and use the ability to get our narrative in front of the playerbase to attempt to accomplish ends.
Also, a lot of whining about how we aren't discussing the forums screwup - which was hilarious and awful - in this letter. The letter was written before the forums imploded, it takes CCP a few days to approve and upload dev blogs through their formal channels.[/quote |
Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:00:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat Also I would like to see force projection issues resolved with jump/titan bridge nerfs and perhaps cap jump range nerfs along with that cyno spool up idea the dev was talking about before we see anything like this which gives blobs even more advantage.
You are supposed to think about time dilation, not about force projection.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:04:00 -
[98]
Originally by: The Mittani
Narrative control is one of the tools we do have available to us, so we're using it. It's also important to ram home the difference between 'scrum dev stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder' as part of expectation management; people like that idiot think we can offer the moon and stars partially because the actual powers and capabilities of the CSM have been so poorly communicated, both by CCP and by past CSMs.
To be fair to past CSMs, the actual CSM itself has evolved a lot and what CSM1 was is very different to CSM4 or CSM5 in terms of purpose, function and aims.
Basically he's a tool and I agree, but I want folks to know the difference between 'scrum stakeholder' and 'corporate stakeholder'.
I find it reassuring that even in the face of such negativity, you remain firm in your commitment to communicate with the base at large. Its about time a CSM treated the office they hold with respect instead of just the ability to go "Look how cool I am, I'm on the CSM!"
Kudos to you and your council. Stay strong, the road ahead is long and filled with the treachery of haterz and political saboteurs.
CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:12:00 -
[99]
Messaging is what nullsec does. We organize tens of thousands of players in wars; we can organize tens of thousands in an election, and we can organize tens of thousands to focus on a particular, critical issue to provide the political capital to get it actually implemented, we hope.
I suspect that our next spotlight will come after the Summit. Odds are good that it will be something less 'nullsec', such as an iterative ship balance team or staffer. In the meantime, please hammer on and support the necessity of Time Dilation.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:12:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Hilmar wants CCP's employees to listen to the CSM.
Originally by: Arakkis Melanogaster GUYS GUYS THE CEO OF A COMPANY SAID SOMETHING IT MUST BE 100% TRUE
SPAAAAAAAAACE JEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!
There's a herd of killer rabbits coming this way, and we need your help! |
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dibblebill
Disciples of Night Dominion of Darkness
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:12:00 -
[101]
I never thought I'd see the day when I said I found respect for Mittani or Goonswarm, but you have it, sir.
For once, I'm actually INTERESTED in the CSM beyond a group of airheads in a room somewhere. *SPLUD* |
Zastrow
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:15:00 -
[102]
It's easy for CCP to ignore players on the forums and over the internet. It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you. It would take them like an hour or 2 at least.
Say what you want about the "power" of the CSM, but CCP isn't sitting them down with scrubs, they got Torfi, Noah, and other big guns sitting down with the CSM at the summits. These are important ears to have. If the CSM can persuade (persuade, not demand) the right people to come around, the direction of EVE will change as a result. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
khalleth
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.04.11 20:21:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Mitchello :words:
You do not understand what Mittani means by SCRUM Stakeholder.
In software development nowadays, the 'in' thing, and proper management buzzword, is 'agile development'. Basically, this boils down to the ability of the development team to react to changing requirements, while still delivering working, robust code.
There are many agile processes (manuals; ways of being agile) such as Xtreme Programming (XP), SCRUM, DSDM, etc.
SCRUM is a way of developing computer software that has its own set of 'buzzwords' that people who use it throw around; for example, there is a ScrumMaster, and daily scrum meetings, etc.
I'm not going to reproduce the entire wikipedia page here, but the relevant portion is this:
Originally by: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)"
Ancillary Scrum roles The ancillary roles in Scrum teams are those with no formal role and infrequent involvement in the Scrum processùand must nonetheless be taken into account. Stakeholders (customers, vendors) These are the people who enable the project and for whom the project will produce the agreed-upon benefit[s], which justify its production. They are only directly involved in the process during the sprint reviews.
I've underlined the relevant part of this sentence. They are only involved in sprint reviews!
In essence, this means a 'stakeholder', as CCP define it but refuse to clarify it to you as customers, only does this:
Originally by: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(development)"
Sprint Review Meeting Review the work that was completed and not completed Present the completed work to the stakeholders (a.k.a. ôthe demoö) Incomplete work cannot be demonstrated Four hour time limit
This means, BY CCP'S OWN DEFINITION all they have to do is tell the CSM what they've done and show it to them. They may do more than that, but that's all they are obliged to do. That is pretty much all they have done in the past apart from "Thanks for these 100 things, they'll be tickets #25100-#25200 in our development tracker, tagged 'when-we-have-time-no-really-no' and against an Unscheduled milestone.
This is the only role the CSM have in the development process currently. The big fanfare over the CSM being a stakeholder IS NOT AS POWERFUL as you are being led to believe.
CCP have, to paraphrase Mittani, been lying to you.
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:22:00 -
[104]
Edited by: The Mittani on 11/04/2011 20:23:00 ^^^^ woah a goodpost by khalleth, who'd have thunk it. go read that again, he knows the score
Beer and tabledancing in gay bars both figure heavily in my persuasion strategies.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Ender Black
Lone Star Exploration
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:27:00 -
[105]
I was one who was originally put off from Mittens' message during the election campaign, but after reading the drivel from the mouth-breathing neckbeards in this topic I can completely understand why he treated some like a plague infesting his sack. For the spergers whining about the 0.0 aspect of the first main CSM focus consider this: Epic fleet fights, the treasonous nature of 0.0 politics, the thievery is what gives this game attention outside of EVE Online news outlets. It's what brings in new players. If 0.0 is broken, then the whole game is broken.
Honestly, that the CSM Members continue to post and remain on message after page upon page of this bull**** is a credit to themselves.
Also, if you feel the CSM is an ineffective PR stunt carried on by CCP, a wholly terrible company you loath, then why are you wasting your time and our time with your post. Not that anyone really reads your post...just the time it takes to scroll down from your sperging.
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Krutoj
Caldari The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:28:00 -
[106]
We have been found Mittani, lets jet outta here
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Zen Sarum
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:29:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Zen Sarum on 11/04/2011 20:35:31 FFS so goons run CSM...
So I assume Tech moon balance, supercaps, an unimaginative poorly designed sov system which requires blobbing, and jump bridges will never get balanced now.
So now you want to allow more blobbing for the NC with time dilation to address the symptom of a poorly designed sov system, so you can have one massive rolling NC blob ... yea that'll fix the cause .. till something else breaks to the 3000man blob.
Then again CSM doesn't have any power anyway so why am I worried.
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:30:00 -
[108]
Originally by: khalleth
blurb
Yes, that was all nicely covered in the publications by CCP, as well as CSM, and the various Summit Minutes and community sites everywhere.
You make a good attempt at trying to slip the interaction in to the restriction of the technical development, quite well done, really. Unfortunately there is the small thing of established communication between CSM as well as CCP and together on how this plays out outside of the technical scope. Perhaps you remember the discussions that took place on the backlog, for example.
Suffice to say, that even though Mittani - as you put it - claims that CCP lies, there remains the part of a stakeholder being more than just something in Agile. You might want to research topics like business development, enterprise management, CCP participated actually in several studies on the topic. All quite interesting, but it is hardly something limited to CCP =P These things have been quite commonplace in many industries.
I'm looking forward to a reply, which takes a better suited context, after all we're not dealing here with software development.
As for power, dear man, power is always an illusion. Especially among pixels.
And as for CCP and words, well, CCP advocate a message. Many people do that. In business and society alike. There is such a thing as marketing, but when people stick to their word there is something to be said for taking them by their word. Something to think about, in regards to CCP, their CEO, and their interactions at summits with various CSM's.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:32:00 -
[109]
Fluffy sugar puff. This is what CSM 6 is reduced to *sigh*.
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GeneralDisturbed
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:33:00 -
[110]
I've been in fights, even in small ones, where one side was completely and totally wiped out without ever having a chance to actually fight. Simply because the other side got favored in the fight by lag. I've also seen fights where one side has simply given up and gone home, even with a superior force, because they will have to jump into a system to fight, and they know that will be their death sentence. I've spent two hours before staring at a black screen, while I listened to the few people who did load system describe how all our ships were being wiped out to the last man. Because they were on grid, but we were in no control. I've also been trapped in a system for hours after dying, staring at my burning ship flying around in a circle, lag making it impossible to warp out or self destruct. Just have to log off and come back tomorrow when the fight is over. Hell I've seen fights where capitals jumped out, warped to their staging POS, and logged off for the night. Only to log back in the next day to find their ships were dead. Since what they saw on their screens isn't what happened. And their ships were lagged back into the system with no pilots, to die.
For anyone who does, or ever plans to experience large scale PVP, one of the things that makes this game utterly unique from practically every other MMO out there, this idea is a godsend.
For the guys that never plan to leave the safe haven of highsec, and experience the rest of this game the way it was mean to be, coming in here to **** on this thread isn't going to help anything. You had your chance to vote, and so did we. And null sec, who clearly has the majority of players who care about eve, voted who we wanted onto the CSM. And this is an issue that affects -all- of us. So honestly, go take your mouthbreathing conspiracies and hatred and go back to shooting rats for a living.
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Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:35:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Fluffy sugar puff. This is what CSM 6 is reduced to *sigh*.
Did you see the new eve forums banner. It had a pink unicorn and bees and flowers!
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Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:35:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Zen Sarum FFS so goons run CSM...
So I assume Tech moon balance, supercaps, a sov system which requires out blobbing but not out fighting, and jump bridges will never get balanced now.
Then again CSM doesn't have any power anyway so why am I worried.
yep...anomaly nerf and hopefully jump bridge nerf coming soon. CCP just keep doing what your doing and Mittens can keep tickling his dog's privates with that little goatie beard.
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BlitZ Kotare
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:36:00 -
[113]
Originally by: dibblebill
For once, I'm actually INTERESTED in the CSM beyond a group of airheads in a room somewhere.
Not emptyquoting .
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:37:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Fluffy sugar puff. This is what CSM 6 is reduced to *sigh*.
CSM 6 took office one week ago, hit the ground running, coordinated, talked, exchanged points of views and information, reached consensus about what the first issue to spotlight would be (and the fact that we'd be doing this), figured out our stance on the subject, got a message written out, did 2 rounds of revision on that message so everyone could agree, incorporated those revisions, sent it to CCP for release and got CCP to release it.
It's safe to say CSM 6 is starting really well in terms of efforts...
Now, in terms of other individual issues and getting results, it's a bit early for that wouldn't you think? ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:37:00 -
[115]
Originally by: The Mittani
Beer and tabledancing in gay bars both figure heavily in my persuasion strategies.
I thought you retired?
As for time dilation: Right now, system capacity is determined by 2 things: code and hardware. The code is, well, done by the same guys who gave you boot.ini, but they try to streamline it as much as is possible. Significant changes are few and far between. The hardware is refreshed periodically but is relatively static.
The best case scenario is that your system is placed on its own node. Until the day comes when they can stretch a system across multiple cores/nodes, dilation that kicks in when the processor queue reaches a certain limit is the only thing that can allow eve to scale without the familiar node-melting effects that strike randomly and cause pointless losses for people. Those that argue the boredom factor should remember that we already spend a lot of time watching a black screen, nebula background waiting for the grid to load, sudden loss of shields and armor, ship ghost outlines when you may or may not have jumped, etc. This is nothing new, and the knowledge that "yes, my modules will react" will actually be a BETTER situation than the present one.
The CSM getting this fast-tracked and prioritized can only be a good thing. To say otherwise is just exposing yourself as a petty-minded individual desperately trolling for attention and a platform to spout your pithy responses.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:37:00 -
[116]
100% agree on the time dilation and have from week 2 in the game, when moving to 0.0 was only a hope and dream that wouldn't be fufilled til 9 months later after i had gained sp and general game experience with ship and pvp knowledge
Beyond this game, the general social concept of Sporting Ideals was at risk and being compromised by forcing players to be accustomed to Nihlistic thinking that competition was more about luck than skill, and that adjusting rules and behavior was an unacheivable aim.. that the world was too dirty and selfish place for that to happen.
The push for time dilation is more than just a possible improvement to eve play desirablity; it is a statement that humans have ideals about behaviour and interaction that they will work to implement when that can be achieved .
Computer gaming deserves to evolve like other sports from swimming to volleyball to running... its a never ending battle in all sports to handle issues like athlete doping etc yet without the efforts competition would falter that much more.
Cheers to putting the ideals competition at a high priorty.
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khalleth
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:39:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mitchello
Yes, that was all nicely covered in the publications by CCP, as well as CSM, and the various Summit Minutes and community sites everywhere.
I haven't seen it, but if it is, OK. Doesn't change what I'm saying though.
Originally by: Mitchello
You make a good attempt at trying to slip the interaction in to the restriction of the technical development, quite well done, really.
But that is what the restriction is! The CSM are only a SCRUM stakeholder; they're not considered any other sort of stakeholder, they're not the product champion, they don't have a 'veto' or a direct line to the development tracker/trac/redmine/bugzilla/whatever! They can't prioritise things!
Originally by: Mitchello
Unfortunately there is the small thing of established communication between CSM as well as CCP and together on how this plays out outside of the technical scope. Perhaps you remember the discussions that took place on the backlog, for example.
The backlog is a technical issue. It is a development issue. The stakeholders SHOULD NOT get involved in that kind of issue in the first place!
Scrum stakeholders will all liaise with a central point of contact within a development team. It might go through a layer of abstraction - so the CSM has a liaison, so do the CCP board of directors, so do the shareholders, etc.
All the ideas put forward by the stakeholders, and the feedback given to the team from those stakeholders, goes through this point of contact. Call them a Product Champion. That product champion is but one voice on the development team, and puts forward a list of ideas. Management will then prioritise those ideas - not the stakeholders! Stakeholders, and Product Champions, do not have any say over the priority those issues get assigned to.
Also, "Business Pressures" can reassign development priorities far easier than a stakeholder can ever hope to. If the Shareholders want all CCP development resources directed against Incarna, Dust 514, and getting EvE features ready for integration with those features, a Product champion has not a hope in hell of getting any other issues marked higher priority than those.
Originally by: Mitchello
Suffice to say, that even though Mittani - as you put it - claims that CCP lies, there remains the part of a stakeholder being more than just something in Agile. You might want to research topics like business development, enterprise management, CCP participated actually in several studies on the topic. All quite interesting, but it is hardly something limited to CCP =P These things have been quite commonplace in many industries.
The problem is that we ARE talking about just something in Agile. That is how CCP defined the CSM in the first place - which, as you said above, was well explained in publications by CCP, and that is how CCP treat the CSM now - as an Agile SCRUM stakeholder, not as anything more!
Originally by: Mitchello
I'm looking forward to a reply, which takes a better suited context, after all we're not dealing here with software development.
I hope I've tried to do that.
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khalleth
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:42:00 -
[118]
Sorry for doublepost - just realised I didn't respond to one of your points.
Quote: Unfortunately there is the small thing of established communication between CSM as well as CCP and together on how this plays out outside of the technical scope.
The line of established communication, as I understand it, consists of some throwaway meetings that never change anything online, and two face to face meetings at CCP each year.
My entire point is that this does not play outside the technical scope. The CSM are called upon to review features that CCP has already implemented. Their feedback should be incorporated into a future iteration at some point somehow, but business pressures can, and do, override this.
The CSM will never play in the business scope. The CSM will never play in the marketing scope. The CSM will never play in the pre-sales scope. The CSM will never play in the purchasing scope.
The CSM is only a sounding board for reviews of already existing features.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:43:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Katsura Kotonoha
Originally by: Sturmwolke Fluffy sugar puff. This is what CSM 6 is reduced to *sigh*.
Did you see the new eve forums banner. It had a pink unicorn and bees and flowers!
Which banner? Oh that one said 1 universe, 1 epic fail? Yes, they were quite cute, I like ponies.
Fake edit : Lol, if this is the precursor of things to come, I'd say CSM 6 has been effectively emasculated. Large S/N ratio courtesy of the chairman.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:44:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Zastrow It's easy for CCP to ignore players on the forums and over the internet. It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you. It would take them like an hour or 2 at least.
Say what you want about the "power" of the CSM, but CCP isn't sitting them down with scrubs, they got Torfi, Noah, and other big guns sitting down with the CSM at the summits. These are important ears to have. If the CSM can persuade (persuade, not demand) the right people to come around, the direction of EVE will change as a result.
The Summits are just one piece of the picture though, and much of what goes on there is Big Picture stuff. For CSM5, for example, what followed after with CCP folks in the form of ongoing discussion (such as with Team Gridlock) and hands-on collaborative work (such as Trebor did with the UI team) was arguably MUCH more important in terms of getting **** done.
Sure, sitting down with "important ears" is useful. But so is ongoing dialog. So what do you do afterward when all requests to engage in such dialogs are refused, however passively, by those "important ears"? Do you just roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried at the Summit. Guess that's all we get. Hope our requests and demands didn't **** you off too much. Sorry, CCP, if we ruffled your feathers or anything."
Welp. That's one way.
Or do you do what Hilmar said to do, and call bull****?
Chair, CSM5 My Blog: Life In Low Sec |
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:44:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Mitchello on 11/04/2011 20:45:12
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Sturmwolke Fluffy sugar puff. This is what CSM 6 is reduced to *sigh*.
CSM 6 took office one week ago, hit the ground running, coordinated, talked, exchanged points of views and information, reached consensus about what the first issue to spotlight would be (and the fact that we'd be doing this), figured out our stance on the subject, got a message written out, did 2 rounds of revision on that message so everyone could agree, incorporated those revisions, sent it to CCP for release and got CCP to release it.
It's safe to say CSM 6 is starting really well in terms of efforts...
Now, in terms of other individual issues and getting results, it's a bit early for that wouldn't you think?
Agreed in full there. For now I'm waiting for the threadnaught which will inevitably be pushed
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Tomcat
Gallente Bad Kitty Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:51:00 -
[122]
You know what makes me saddest of all. I can't tell the difference between who is trolling and who is just out of this world idiotic =/
Also, Time Dilation - May it breath life into this awful travesty we call a game.
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:52:00 -
[123]
Mostly I just wonder why Virt can't post on Virt, since he's clogging the thread with words on an obvious alt.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:59:00 -
[124]
Stakeholder no more I see.
Originally by: :ccp: We are CCP and we know what is good for you
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ModeratedToSilence
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:00:00 -
[125]
Nice to see the CSM attempting to do something both worthwhile and achievable: By helping CCP implement good ideas they are going to take resources away from bad ideas. By helping CCP implement good ideas they are creating a workable relationship with CCP. By helping CCP implement good ideas they are helping the player base.
It is nice to see them adapt to Realpolitik. Time Dilution in incarna?
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:04:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Zastrow It's easy for CCP to ignore players on the forums and over the internet. It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you. It would take them like an hour or 2 at least.
Say what you want about the "power" of the CSM, but CCP isn't sitting them down with scrubs, they got Torfi, Noah, and other big guns sitting down with the CSM at the summits. These are important ears to have. If the CSM can persuade (persuade, not demand) the right people to come around, the direction of EVE will change as a result.
The Summits are just one piece of the picture though, and much of what goes on there is Big Picture stuff. For CSM5, for example, what followed after with CCP folks in the form of ongoing discussion (such as with Team Gridlock) and hands-on collaborative work (such as Trebor did with the UI team) was arguably MUCH more important in terms of getting **** done.
Sure, sitting down with "important ears" is useful. But so is ongoing dialog. So what do you do afterward when all requests to engage in such dialogs are refused, however passively, by those "important ears"? Do you just roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried at the Summit. Guess that's all we get. Hope our requests and demands didn't **** you off too much. Sorry, CCP, if we ruffled your feathers or anything."
Welp. That's one way.
Or do you do what Hilmar said to do, and call bull****?
you probably don't imitate a CSM that was largely a failure
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:05:00 -
[127]
Originally by: El'Niaga Therefore basically as I've always stated it is nothing more than a PR tool meant to make you think players have a voice when they have none.
Yeah, it's not like we keep them in business or anything. Oh wait...
Anyway, as long as were talking about the perception of the players on the CSM, one of those perceptions is that the CSM is now a large alliance/goon infested thing. Probably not the best way to diminish that it is by using Goon tools for CSM stuff... but maybe that was the plan. I personally will judge the CM by their actions, but this is not a good first impression for me. It's a little bit too similar to state controlled media. I'm not saying that it will be a goon propaganda channel, but I think it's unfair to other candidates use one groups tools because of the increased exposure that group gets. It's not like goons need more exposure anyway.
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Tusanshu
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:07:00 -
[128]
Test CSM, Best CSM.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:08:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Zastrow It's easy for CCP to ignore players on the forums and over the internet. It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you. It would take them like an hour or 2 at least.
Say what you want about the "power" of the CSM, but CCP isn't sitting them down with scrubs, they got Torfi, Noah, and other big guns sitting down with the CSM at the summits. These are important ears to have. If the CSM can persuade (persuade, not demand) the right people to come around, the direction of EVE will change as a result.
The Summits are just one piece of the picture though, and much of what goes on there is Big Picture stuff. For CSM5, for example, what followed after with CCP folks in the form of ongoing discussion (such as with Team Gridlock) and hands-on collaborative work (such as Trebor did with the UI team) was arguably MUCH more important in terms of getting **** done.
Sure, sitting down with "important ears" is useful. But so is ongoing dialog. So what do you do afterward when all requests to engage in such dialogs are refused, however passively, by those "important ears"? Do you just roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried at the Summit. Guess that's all we get. Hope our requests and demands didn't **** you off too much. Sorry, CCP, if we ruffled your feathers or anything."
Welp. That's one way.
Or do you do what Hilmar said to do, and call bull****?
you probably don't imitate a CSM that was largely a failure
That's every CSM before this one.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:11:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Mitchello on 11/04/2011 21:11:57
Originally by: The Mittani Mostly I just wonder why Virt can't post on Virt, since he's clogging the thread with words on an obvious alt.
Virt is inactive these days. Something about always getting called primary on that character
I thought you'd have this character marked though, hi!
Stop worrying, it is a good first letter from a new CSM. Y'all have been in office for just a week, and all people remember right now is CSM5, its methods, its messaging and its visibility in getting somewhere with CCP. It is only natural for people to react to it when their patterns are broken. Not a bad thing. Similar things happened during the transitions from CSM 3 to 4, and 4 to 5.
That does not impede on the value of Time Dilation, sure it is a bit meh that because of what folks are used to it gets a little overshadowed, but it is better to deal with that quickly rather than let it linger. It is a perception challenge.
Once the apple is chewed through, the road is open.
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Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:11:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Originally by: Zen Sarum yep...anomaly nerf and hopefully jump bridge nerf coming soon. CCP just keep doing what your doing and Mittens can keep tickling his dog's privates with that little goatie beard.
u mad? SPAAAAAAAAACE JEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!
There's a herd of killer rabbits coming this way, and we need your help! |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:12:00 -
[132]
Some posts in this thread make me wonder how some of you act outside of your basements. God help you if you ever need to persuade someone to grant you something or to change their mind about a topic without browbeating them or screaming in their face.
Seriously, CCP is under no obligation to do anything the CSM says. If the CSM decides to spend their time whining and bleating, the amount of weight the devs will put on their words is going to shrink precipitously.
If, however, they seek to engage CCP and present a cohesive message without resorting to acting out--you can bet that their audience will at least be paid attention to and given some thought. Make no mistake though--CCP can and will do what it wants. The CSM body just has a chance to influence that "want" and hopefully guide it to something to the betterment of the game.
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Butterbunz
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:13:00 -
[133]
Only one week in and I already wish that CCP would spend the money it takes to run CSM to make another HTFU music video. In just this topic alone, I have read nothing more then petty name calling (neckbeard, basement dweller, etc) and your typical tough guy attitude.
First and foremost, when becoming CSM check your ****ing in game personality at the door. I don't care if you're some big shot in game or RL, but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent. Rather than trying to win a vote of confidence by trying to be the winner of a flame war, how about you try to press an issue with a problem/issue the players (CCP's source of income) have.
The biggest issue we need to address is the public support for the CSM. Frankly, I couldn't give two ****s about whether or you have a strong sway with CCP or nothing more than glorified sock puppets. You need the support of the players to press on. Imagine this: The majority of the players support your agenda (Updated regularly and discussed in an open forum. CSM has/gains a major backing by the player base and presents a proposal to CCP. CCP reading the proposal will try to activly enter some form of negotiation (feasibility and such) and try to make it work rather than shoot it down outright. If CCP does shoot down an proposal, that would cause one hell of a PR ****storm. They would have to give reasons for it, and the CSM could give player oriented feedback to help CCP suggest plausible ways of implementing the changes.
Realistically you guys are supposed to act like lobbyists (to an extent). Just because you think you might get shut down doesn't mean you shouldn't even bother trying. Have weekly blogs to demonstrate some form of progression to a goal. You could even schedule bi-yearly (bi-termly if the CSM term is less than a year) proposals. Research, debate, and discuss your goals and ideas, then as a unified body make the proposal.
This does in fact mean a lot of time needs to be spent doing the job, but hey, if you don't want to do the work don't run for candidacy.
Inb4 a bunch of degenerative 4chan flamewars
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:13:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 11/04/2011 16:50:05 So, CSM6 just advertised that it sees itself as nothing more than soundboard for CCP, and without struggle has therefore declared itself already quite useless as a pressure management instrument for CCP. Off to a good start.
do you even know what the original mandate for the CSM was? Before it was even called the CSM? Ill help: It was a watchdog group, a knee-jerk reaction by CCP to prove they wouldnt repeat T20. The members were to go to Iceland and keep tabs on CCP.
Yeah its THAT bull****
They even kept up that crap for a couple weeks too
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:14:00 -
[135]
The CSM has the support of the only players with a unified voice enough to rise above the cacophony of idiocy that is the assembly hall
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:17:00 -
[136]
To add something in addition to the important time dilation issue
Dream of ways to create smaller goals and smaller fleet engagements or give full support to ideas submitted to the CSM that might create those opportunities WITHOUT a stick to the diplomatic political areana.
Game mechanics aren't zero sum things... and hell nerfs that make things worthless are far more iritating than a gradual nerf by obsolecense... lvl 4s were begining to be succesfully de-emphasised with increasing anomolie ussage and more casual players moving to 0.0 and 0.0 players spending less time in empire ...
If they wanted more confilct over space carrots instead of sticks could have been conceived.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:18:00 -
[137]
Quote: It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you.
CCP easily fixed that by just not telling CSM anything or ignoring them (see anomaly changes where CSM was completely ignored).
Tbh while i like most ideas of the current CSM, i still think time dilation will take too much time to implement considering the relative small impact. The only effect is that you wont blackscreen as often when jumping your blob into hostile blob. Which is a good thing obviously, but during the fight itself lag is (usually) pretty equal for all sides. Imo it would be way better to remove current sov system and replace it by something that encourages something besides blobbing as much as possible during 4 timers (i still like activity based sov).
And when busy anyway nodes should be multithreaded. Yes I know it is easier to say than to do, but face it, threads arent going to become much faster in the near future, we are just getting more of them. I dont believe in the argument that it would give a problem with dead ships killing other ships, physics at the very least could run on its own threads. Even if it would happen that dead ships can kill other ships in their last breath, who cares? We are in normal situation then talking about very short timing difference (doesnt eve have short turns anyway that would prevent that?), one can easily explain that in the backstory by travelling time of the ammo, a ship still firing its last shots when going down, etc. And look at shooters, there it happens all the time, no one complains about it.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:20:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you.
CCP easily fixed that by just not telling CSM anything or ignoring them (see anomaly changes where CSM was completely ignored).
or slapping them with NDAs when they disagreed with CCP
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:21:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 11/04/2011 21:23:27
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel Now, in terms of other individual issues and getting results, it's a bit early for that wouldn't you think?
The main part of what made CSM5 succcessful, and what perhaps made a lot of people to sit up and take notice is their professional conduct (especially that of the chairwoman) and willingness to call a spade "This is a bloody spadeÖ!". The recent invasion of the CSM 6 by large power blocks says something about the general interest level created by their successes.
To answer your question, the sheer joy and willingness to cavort to shenanigans and fluffy/**** postings tells me that things won't go far. The responsible public will not engage with sound ideas and suggestions if you maintain a hostile environment full of trolls. You get apathy. The noise level increases ten fold.
I'm willing to be proven wrong, but the writings on the wall tells me otherwise.
edit: clarity
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Axhind
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:22:00 -
[140]
Awesome letter and even better idea (only realistic one to be honest) for dealing with the lag in game. I would love to hear in a dev blog a bit about the way they plan on implementing it (for example how the new people jumping in to the system would be handled).
Don't get the CSM hate though. You have to be pretty dense to think that CSM can actually order around CCP devs. No matter what CEO said he was not saying that CSM has power over devs or the direction in which the game is going. Accepting your limitations is a first step to maximising your abilities and getting time dilation would be huge thing for the game. Suddenly the epic battles would be epic battles and not epic whine on the forums due to random chance.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:24:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Mitchello But CSM is a stakeholder, within the development process. Sure, CCP applied the status without fully considering what this would mean, but that is fine. After all CSM started out as an experiment, so this is a path of mutual exploration for both the road and the horizon.
CSM's role is both larger than, and smaller than, a development stakeholder. We have some roles outside the development process (focus group, bull**** calling, etc), but within the process itself, CSM works under a set of restrictions that other stakeholders do not suffer from.
For example, we are not on-site, so we can't walk down the hall to chat with people. And our participation in the scrum process is largely limited to giving a list of our priorities to our representatives (Xhagen and Diagoras) for use during the planning meetings.
Developing ways to compensate for those handicaps is high on my list of procedural priorities, and I hope the other council members will give it a similar emphasis.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:25:00 -
[142]
Focussing on only one issue is going to cost us dearly in terms of lost time.
While the nullsec community might have been watching "in horror" at the backlog set up by CSM 5, that backlog existed for a reason - CSM was preparing a laundry list of fixes, second iterations, and wish list items. Where were the nullsec denizens when that list was being prepared? Why weren't nullsec issues supported sufficiently in the F&I and AH forums to appear in the crowd sourcing lists? Why weren't crowd sourcing sessions used by nullsec denizens to advance their gameplay preferences?
Subsequent iterations over the backlog could have scrapped some items, reprioritised others, and added more important stuff to the front of the queue.
If you're going to throw away that laundry list backlog and focus on just one item being implemented by one team, you're going to lose the opportunity to influence the other teams to produce stuff that the players want.
The CSM should be setting up a prioritized list for each team it interacts with. Team Gridlock is only focussed on the space simulation aspect of the game. There are other teams dealing with the UI, content and customer service.
Will we see other items beside "Time Dilation" in the spotlights any time soon, or does CSM6 feel that one spotlight is all they can manage at once?
What does CSM6 intend to do with the crowd sourcing and prioritisation list?
Will minutes or recordings of the "Fireside Chats" be kept (eg: publish recordings as podcasts) so that those of us not available to participate can catch up on the discussions at a later date?
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:27:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
For example, we are not on-site, so we can't walk down the hall to chat with people.
I havent kept up with the CSM stuff other than to laugh at the original idea, but part of that original idea was to fly the CSM TO Iceland. They scrapped that too then?
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Lan Staz
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:28:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Furb Killer i still think time dilation will take too much time to implement considering the relative small impact.
Originally by: Furb Killer Imo it would be way better to remove current sov system and replace it by something that encourages something besides blobbing as much as possible during 4 timers (i still like activity based sov).
Originally by: Furb Killer And when busy anyway nodes should be multithreaded.
Time dilation would presumably be based around simply removing the current restriction that a "tick" has to complete in 1 second. The work involved would probably be dealing with all the edge cases where other unrelated code assumes ticks take no longer. And it would have a potentially massive benefit, in that it would fundamentally change the nature (though not the existence) of lag.
Replacing the sov mechanics and making the code thread-safe would be a lot more work, and would at best increase the lag threshold somew. Complet
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:31:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
For example, we are not on-site, so we can't walk down the hall to chat with people.
I havent kept up with the CSM stuff other than to laugh at the original idea, but part of that original idea was to fly the CSM TO Iceland. They scrapped that too then?
not for the whole year
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:32:00 -
[146]
Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.
They seem to be made by people who have been butthurt by Goon and NC rather than people with any legitimate argument about the current topic.
Nerf Jump Bridges? I suspect the people saying this are the same ones who call people hackers in FPS games because they keep getting merc'd.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:36:00 -
[147]
Originally by: LordElfa Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.
Thats the effect Goons usually have on ppl
and its not about whove theyve killed... who am I kidding this HAS to be a troll lol Good one
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:41:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: LordElfa Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.
Thats the effect Goons usually have on ppl
and its not about whove theyve killed... who am I kidding this HAS to be a troll lol Good one
No, I'm dead ass serious about this. CSM6 is not the damn Goonswarm. People need to learn to separate the game from real life. In game, the members of CSM6 may play ruthlessly and for keeps, but out of game, many of them are professionals who are taking their roles in the CSM very seriously in order to make this game better. Why can't people see that?!
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:45:00 -
[149]
Is the general "O" of fleet battles known? That is to say, what how does the computational power required scale with the number of ships in a large battle?
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:48:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Sullen Skoung I havent kept up with the CSM stuff other than to laugh at the original idea, but part of that original idea was to fly the CSM TO Iceland. They scrapped that too then?
not for the whole year
And if they did, we'd all ragequit. Well, all of us but Meissa...
But seriously, a stakeholder who is working full time in Iceland obviously has many more opportunities for networking, building consensus, etc., than does the CSM.
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:48:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Mara Rinn Focussing on only one issue is going to cost us dearly in terms of lost time.
While the nullsec community might have been watching "in horror" at the backlog set up by CSM 5, that backlog existed for a reason - CSM was preparing a laundry list of fixes, second iterations, and wish list items. Where were the nullsec denizens when that list was being prepared? Why weren't nullsec issues supported sufficiently in the F&I and AH forums to appear in the crowd sourcing lists? Why weren't crowd sourcing sessions used by nullsec denizens to advance their gameplay preferences?
Subsequent iterations over the backlog could have scrapped some items, reprioritised others, and added more important stuff to the front of the queue.
If you're going to throw away that laundry list backlog and focus on just one item being implemented by one team, you're going to lose the opportunity to influence the other teams to produce stuff that the players want.
The CSM should be setting up a prioritized list for each team it interacts with. Team Gridlock is only focussed on the space simulation aspect of the game. There are other teams dealing with the UI, content and customer service.
Will we see other items beside "Time Dilation" in the spotlights any time soon, or does CSM6 feel that one spotlight is all they can manage at once?
What does CSM6 intend to do with the crowd sourcing and prioritisation list?
Will minutes or recordings of the "Fireside Chats" be kept (eg: publish recordings as podcasts) so that those of us not available to participate can catch up on the discussions at a later date?
Or you can realize that the backlog exists because CCP doesn't prioritize any of them aside from maybe the low hanging fruit scoopd up by Team BFF. When you go to iceland and hand them 10,000 points and say "do these please, thanks!" the only rational response is to scratch your head and toss them in the back of the queue, since they're all "important" and given dissonant supprot.
Focusing on a few issues and selling them as singular priorities--even if they're backlog retreads--is far more likey to be effectively realized than tossing handfuls of random ideas out like chaff and hoping some stick.
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Butterbunz
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:50:00 -
[152]
Any CSM want to comment on my last post?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:52:00 -
[153]
Originally by: LordElfa
Originally by: Sturmwolke Sturmwolke The responsible public will not engage with sound ideas and suggestions if you maintain a hostile environment full of trolls.
I've been through every post in this thread and the trolls appear to be those coming out against CSM6, not brought with them. Convince them to get the hell out and there won't be any damn hostility.
And is that all you have to say?
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VaL Iscariot
b.b.k Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:54:00 -
[154]
Hey CSM, here's a clever thought, unlike ccp listen to the players and make them give back our anoms. I don't want to grind missions again :( Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
Qoi
Exert Force
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:59:00 -
[155]
I think nobody expected that the huge success of CSM5 could be continued, but this letter is really a big step backwards.
CSM is one of the most important connections between the players (who are corporate stakeholders) and CCP, and you are reducing it to a SCRUM stakeholder. Of course it makes your day a lot easier in that respect.
But you seem to be motivated to work together effectively, so i am looking forward to what you can achieve. I'll try to measure you by your deeds, not by your words. Good luck!
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:03:00 -
[156]
Originally by: VaL Iscariot Hey CSM, here's a clever thought, unlike ccp listen to the players and make them give back our anoms. I don't want to grind missions again :(
Since Greyscale's dev blog was released between CSM5 and CSM6, and CSM6 was not consulted about the change, there's not much we can do about it, besides discuss it at the Summit. It's certainly a topic that we intend to discuss, both in terms of its impact, and the fact that it helpfully gutshot the CSM right out of the gates. Meissa informs me that CSM5 was not consulted, either.
Half of our job is to show the playerbase what we can accomplish in realistic terms, but also to grow the legitimacy of the CSM in everyone's eyes. That's much harder to do if sometimes CCP consults with us, and sometimes they don't.
I've made it clear in the anom thread that while I don't disagree that there should be differences between regions in terms of risk/reward, the way that this nerf was handled was awful, and on top of that the dev blog itself didn't make any sense - claiming that we would change our staging systems based on anomaly quality, for example. That was a real :cripes: moment.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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Havlentia Castigatrix
Gallente The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:03:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Butterbunz Any CSM want to comment on my last post?
Didn't think it warranted more than a passing giggle, to be honest, 'butterbunz'.
----- This space left intentionally blank |
Rasha Tar
Caldari Slaps n Tickles
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:05:00 -
[158]
I don't know about anyone else, but I started playing eve for the SPACESHIPS and the massive battles. If time dilathingy allows these fights to scale without the server going **** up, then that is a wonderful thing.
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The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:05:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Qoi
CSM is one of the most important connections between the players (who are corporate stakeholders) and CCP, and you are reducing it to a SCRUM stakeholder. Of course it makes your day a lot easier in that respect.
so what you're saying is that you preferred being lied to, and/or deluded?
when i ran on a platform of 'they're lying to you' and 'no more bull****', i wasn't kidding. what you think you have ('stakeholder') and what you actually have (scrum stakeholder) are two different things, and you're upset because you're having the illusions ripped away from you.
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:06:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Qoi I think nobody expected that the huge success of CSM5 could be continued, but this letter is really a big step backwards.
CSM is one of the most important connections between the players (who are corporate stakeholders) and CCP, and you are reducing it to a SCRUM stakeholder. Of course it makes your day a lot easier in that respect.
But you seem to be motivated to work together effectively, so i am looking forward to what you can achieve. I'll try to measure you by your deeds, not by your words. Good luck!
Is it really that awful that unlike former CSM's that tried to promise the world that this one is being reserved and honest about what they can and can't do?
It sounds like a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't to me. Be honest and you end up with insinuations of lethargy, say you can get it all done and you're accused of having delusions of grandeur. Which is it?
...and someone tell me how CSM5 had huge success?!
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
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Qoi
Exert Force
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:09:00 -
[161]
Originally by: The Mittani
when i ran on a platform of 'they're lying to you' and 'no more bull****', i wasn't kidding. what you think you have ('stakeholder') and what you actually have (scrum stakeholder) are two different things, and you're upset because you're having the illusions ripped away from you.
You might want to look up the meaning of "corporate stakeholder" in an encyclopedia. The playerbase is one.
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:10:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Qoi I think nobody expected that the huge success of CSM5 could be continued, but this letter is really a big step backwards.
CSM is one of the most important connections between the players (who are corporate stakeholders) and CCP, and you are reducing it to a SCRUM stakeholder. Of course it makes your day a lot easier in that respect.
But you seem to be motivated to work together effectively, so i am looking forward to what you can achieve. I'll try to measure you by your deeds, not by your words. Good luck!
Come on, it doesn't have to be. They have been in office for less than a week, and yeah ok the campaign time was a bit meh in many regards.
But every CSM has a transition time. And every time people have to switch from the previous CSM to a next.
Sure, there is the topic of stakeholder, accountability, however you want to call it. But, the show does go on, this is not the only topic. CSM6 starts with Time Dilation, which is nice. Sure it has roots, but that does not mean to just write it off. On the contrary, one thing clear from CSM 4 and 5 was that constant communication and perception of pressure was a must. So at minimum for that this is something to consider.
Caution is always good. And yes, first impressions do have a hit, but this does go beyond that. No CSM is ever static. Give it a bit, follow the various CSM members and alternates, discuss with them and people elsewhere. On forums, on blogs, etcetera.
Yeah, I miss the position on accountability. Simple best practices case. That does not mean it is going to be absent. Could be, but doesn't have to.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:10:00 -
[163]
Time dilation aside (it's a very interesting suggestion, and I look forward to seeing how it turns out), the current CSM seem to be too obsessed with 0.0.
I wish you good luck, guys, but the CSM needs to look at high-sec and lol-sec aswell (is it just me, or is WH-space actually working out well?).
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Havlentia Castigatrix
Gallente The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:11:00 -
[164]
Originally by: LordElfa
...and someone tell me how CSM5 had huge success?!
I think that some people mistake the unholy outrage caused during the 'vote for us'/"we're ignoring the list of things" debacle as creating a reflected glory of sorts during the damage limitation phases. Unless they're referring to a candidate getting kicked out for 'insider knowledge', although you'd need to really spin to call that a win.
I _really_ would love to be a fly on the wall during the meetings when CCP have to deal with a lawyer asking the questions. Schadenfreude is delicious.
----- This space left intentionally blank |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:13:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Qoi I think nobody expected that the huge success of CSM5 could be continued, but this letter is really a big step backwards.
CSM is one of the most important connections between the players (who are corporate stakeholders) and CCP, and you are reducing it to a SCRUM stakeholder. Of course it makes your day a lot easier in that respect.
But you seem to be motivated to work together effectively, so i am looking forward to what you can achieve. I'll try to measure you by your deeds, not by your words. Good luck!
Huge success? While they had successes, I wouldn't call CSM 5 a huge success. They called BS on what became the 18-month meme, and then convinced CCP to deal with a few issues that had been sitting in the wish list for years.
This CSM is calling for Time Dilation which would have pretty dramatic ramifications on the mechanics of the game. If they can get it through, I would call the success of CSM 6 on par with that of CSM 5. If they can accomplish more, great.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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VaL Iscariot
b.b.k Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:14:00 -
[166]
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: VaL Iscariot Hey CSM, here's a clever thought, unlike ccp listen to the players and make them give back our anoms. I don't want to grind missions again :(
Since Greyscale's dev blog was released between CSM5 and CSM6, and CSM6 was not consulted about the change, there's not much we can do about it, besides discuss it at the Summit. It's certainly a topic that we intend to discuss, both in terms of its impact, and the fact that it helpfully gutshot the CSM right out of the gates. Meissa informs me that CSM5 was not consulted, either.
Half of our job is to show the playerbase what we can accomplish in realistic terms, but also to grow the legitimacy of the CSM in everyone's eyes. That's much harder to do if sometimes CCP consults with us, and sometimes they don't.
I've made it clear in the anom thread that while I don't disagree that there should be differences between regions in terms of risk/reward, the way that this nerf was handled was awful, and on top of that the dev blog itself didn't make any sense - claiming that we would change our staging systems based on anomaly quality, for example. That was a real :cripes: moment.
Thanks for supporting the community. You've said more in this single post alone then ccp even cared to mention in the anom threadnaught.
You have my bow
BFF <3 Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
Shinigami Zetsui
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:21:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Shinigami Zetsui on 11/04/2011 22:21:34
Originally by: Butterbunz Only one week in and I already wish that CCP would spend the money it takes to run CSM to make another HTFU music video. In just this topic alone, I have read nothing more then petty name calling (neckbeard, basement dweller, etc) and your typical tough guy attitude.
First and foremost, when becoming CSM check your ****ing in game personality at the door. I don't care if you're some big shot in game or RL, but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent. Rather than trying to win a vote of confidence by trying to be the winner of a flame war, how about you try to press an issue with a problem/issue the players (CCP's source of income) have.
The biggest issue we need to address is the public support for the CSM. Frankly, I couldn't give two ****s about whether or you have a strong sway with CCP or nothing more than glorified sock puppets. You need the support of the players to press on. Imagine this: The majority of the players support your agenda (Updated regularly and discussed in an open forum. CSM has/gains a major backing by the player base and presents a proposal to CCP. CCP reading the proposal will try to actively enter some form of negotiation (feasibility and such) and try to make it work rather than shoot it down outright. If CCP does shoot down an proposal, that would cause one hell of a PR ****storm. They would have to give reasons for it, and the CSM could give player oriented feedback to help CCP suggest plausible ways of implementing the changes.
Realistically you guys are supposed to act like lobbyists (to an extent). Just because you think you might get shut down doesn't mean you shouldn't even bother trying. Have weekly blogs to demonstrate some form of progression to a goal. You could even schedule bi-yearly (bi-termly if the CSM term is less than a year) proposals. Research, debate, and discuss your goals and ideas, then as a unified body make the proposal.
This does in fact mean a lot of time needs to be spent doing the job, but hey, if you don't want to do the work don't run for candidacy.
Inb4 a bunch of degenerative 4chan flamewars
I'll repost my post with a less comic alt.
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Camios
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:24:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Camios on 11/04/2011 22:24:18 While Time Dilation will probably solve the unfairness due to lag, Time Dilation will not change the game; the way to survive will always be "bring more people" and we'll hit the server limit again. Time dilation sounds like a plaster on a really more complicated problem that would need a gameplay fix instead: Null Security space has evolved in a poor way: either you blob or play the elitist game with SCs.
Coalitions gameplay is the problem. While its scale is fascinating and awe inspiring, it kills the server (and will kill it even with time dilation, perhaps even if the playerbase does not keep growing). But please note I'm not against coalitions, I'm not against PL. I'm against the fact that if you don't play one of these roles you cannot survive in nowadays 0.0; thus if you want to survive you must play that server killing game. To solve the problem beyond Time Dilation, we'll either need a radical sov mechanic change (so that battles are fought over many sistems at once) or some tools for the small independent entities
Don't nerf coalitions, just boost the ability of small independent entities to survive in nullsec without blues. It should not involve POSes and Outpost, but smaller and less visible stuff.
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Qoi
Exert Force
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:24:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Bagehi
Huge success? While they had successes, I wouldn't call CSM 5 a huge success. They called BS on what became the 18-month meme, and then convinced CCP to deal with a few issues that had been sitting in the wish list for years.
This CSM is calling for Time Dilation which would have pretty dramatic ramifications on the mechanics of the game. If they can get it through, I would call the success of CSM 6 on par with that of CSM 5. If they can accomplish more, great.
You are right, calling it a huge success wasn't exactly the right phrase. But we saw progress that you couldn't see in previous CSM terms. (Previous CSMs were of course important for the success of CSM5, too.) Now i'm not so sure if the new strategy of CSM6 will work out.
I completely agree that time dilation is a much needed mechanic if it works out technically, but the CSM shouldn't forget the bigger picture either.
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BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:29:00 -
[170]
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:30:43
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent.
We didn't vote for him because we had to tell him what to do, we voted him in because we knew he'd do his own thing, which we are confident is the smart thing. If he had to actually listen to us, he'd be talking about removing Concord from the game, and adding Goon faction ships that resembled little yellow bees and frog pillows.
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Cortante
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:30:00 -
[171]
This CSM is little more than a Northern Coalition CSM. The effect of Time Dilation will only help people bring a bigger blob, which favors the Northern Coalition.
Nothing Mittani or any of the other NC CSM members espouses will help smaller entities, nothing they espouse will break up the ****ty powerblocs that have choked out the flavor of 0.0. The first big idea? Making it easier to bring a blob and win.
End of the day, don't encourage Mittani or any of his yes-men by engaging with them, tell CCP that the CSM doesn't represent you and that CCP should take their ideas and opinions with the tiniest grain of salt.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:32:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Camios Edited by: Camios on 11/04/2011 22:24:18 While Time Dilation will probably solve the unfairness due to lag, Time Dilation will not change the game; the way to survive will always be "bring more people" and we'll hit the server limit again.
I'm waiting with giddy anticipation at the Dev blog to come Soon on the time dilation thing to know for sure, but I'm fairly certain it could be implemented to scale....so the more people load the node, the more it dilates.
~Gnosis~ |
Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:33:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Illwill Bill Time dilation aside (it's a very interesting suggestion, and I look forward to seeing how it turns out), the current CSM seem to be too obsessed with 0.0.
I wish you good luck, guys, but the CSM needs to look at high-sec and lol-sec aswell (is it just me, or is WH-space actually working out well?).
Don't worry Illwill Bill, while a significant part of this CSM is composed of 0.0 dwellers, they're not the only ones.
You might be surprised at the willingness of some of them to listen with interest to your requests, even if they pertain more to lowsec and highsec. If you don't trust them to carry your message adequately (or have the appropriate knowledge to be able to defend them appropriately), you can always feel free to contact me. I'm industrialist/PvEer during the day, and non-sov/lowsec PvPer during the evenings (and wormholer during some week-ends :p).
----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:38:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Camios To solve the problem beyond Time Dilation, we'll either need a radical sov mechanic change (so that battles are fought over many sistems at once) or some tools for the small independent entities
Don't nerf coalitions, just boost the ability of small independent entities to survive in nullsec without blues. It should not involve POSes and Outpost, but smaller and less visible stuff.
And this has been proposed to CCP. In fact, the CSM 6 has one of the people who designed a better sov mechanic on it. If CSM 6 can get CCP to iterate on sov, Eve would be a better place. I think many of the CSM stated at one point or another their desire for iteration on sov. It was my hope in voting for them that they would push for that iteration.
Time dilation is a start though, because even if sov is iterated on, those giant fights will still happen. The cause of those giant fights is almost always a super cap being tackled and the ensuing escalation to save/kill it and whatever else ends up being tackled in the process. So, regardless of sov iteration, time dilation is required.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:40:00 -
[175]
Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 22:41:59
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:30:43
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent.
We didn't vote for him because we had to tell him what to do, we voted him in because we knew he'd do his own thing, which we are confident is the smart thing. If he had to actually listen to us, he'd be talking about removing Concord from the game, and adding Goon faction ships that resembled little yellow bees and frog pillows.
That would be a very cool idea for a prize in a corp tournament. The winner would get their own faction frigate added to the game which would be visually designed by the winning corp to reflect their style.
Or perhaps an entire faction set with Frigate, Cruiser and Battleship. I'd fly a Goon Bee.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:41:00 -
[176]
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:43:03
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel You might be surprised at the willingness of some of them to listen with interest to your requests, even if they pertain more to lowsec and highsec. evenings (and wormholer during some week-ends :p).
I keep alts in Empire for various reasons, some for shopping, some for building, some for scamming, and I know plenty of dudes who keep alts to run missions, research, and all sorts of other things. Improvements to empire may not be as nice to me as 0.0 improvements, but they are necessary and cool for many 0.0 players who follow this practice (this is to say, just about all 0.0 players).
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Shinigami Zetsui
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:41:00 -
[177]
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:30:43
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent.
We didn't vote for him because we had to tell him what to do, we voted him in because we knew he'd do his own thing, which we are confident is the smart thing. If he had to actually listen to us, he'd be talking about removing Concord from the game, and adding Goon faction ships that resembled little yellow bees and frog pillows.
So everyone voted for them to do as they please? Or were you talking about representing Goonswarm??
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:52:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:30:43
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent.
We didn't vote for him because we had to tell him what to do, we voted him in because we knew he'd do his own thing, which we are confident is the smart thing. If he had to actually listen to us, he'd be talking about removing Concord from the game, and adding Goon faction ships that resembled little yellow bees and frog pillows.
So everyone voted for them to do as they please? Or were you talking about representing Goonswarm??
No, they voted for them because they trust them to do what's best for the game and not to be Goon's mouthpiece. They'll do what they were voted to do which is work hard for the benefit of the entire EVE playerbase.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:52:00 -
[179]
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:54:45 Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:53:34
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui So everyone voted for them to do as they please? Or were you talking about representing Goonswarm??
He wasn't elected to act as a proxy to players wishes, he was elected to make the decisions swiftly and in player's stead. He may do something one subset of players disagrees with, be it goons or another group, but that's beside the point. By choosing to elect him, the Eve playerbase as a whole gave him authorization to act on his own, because enough Eve players found mittens to be a capable enough guy to make those decisions. Beyond that, he doesn't owe us anything.
^^ Essentially a wordier version of what LordElfa said. He knows what's up. ^^
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Jonathan Malcom
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:53:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Cortante This CSM is little more than a Northern Coalition CSM. The effect of Time Dilation will only help people bring a bigger blob, which favors the Northern Coalition.
Nothing Mittani or any of the other NC CSM members espouses will help smaller entities, nothing they espouse will break up the ****ty powerblocs that have choked out the flavor of 0.0. The first big idea? Making it easier to bring a blob and win.
End of the day, don't encourage Mittani or any of his yes-men by engaging with them, tell CCP that the CSM doesn't represent you and that CCP should take their ideas and opinions with the tiniest grain of salt.
The person with the most friends wins. Welcome to social dynamics.
But no, you're absolutely right. 20 man corps should absolutely be able to challenge 5000 man alliances. I mean, that's fair, right?
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Marconus Orion
S.E.G.W.A.Y.
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:55:00 -
[181]
Sweet!
Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.
It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.
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khalleth
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:01:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sweet!
Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.
It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.
The way previous addresses by GS leadership at least have worked is that the channel has muted and only one or two people can speak. Questions are messaged (text message-wise) to a nominated person who poses them to the leader who then answers them.
With 1k/2k people in the same channel, it's the only way it can reasonably work.
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BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:03:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sweet!
Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.
It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.
If goon moderators kicked solely for digressing opinions, our alliance would have about 10 pilots in it, 5 of them being alts.
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Spooks'em
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:03:00 -
[184]
The first thing I wanted to say is Team Gridlock best Gridlock.
Secondly, Time Dilation is an overdue idea and absolutely essential to the future growth and vibrancy of Eve.
Third, Time Dilation will not fix any of the problems in Eve. It might seem like the perfect solution but if it takes me 9 minutes(~32x time dilation) to cycle my 1400's to keep the game playable I, and many people, are not going to be doing playing Eve for very long.
Lastly, it is good to see the CSM speaking frankly on their limitations and capabilities. I applaud CSM6 for, what I think, is the best start of a CSM yet. I would appreciate further memos/blogs/whatever on exactly what the CSM feels they can accomplish during their term. I also welcome any further input CCP might have in clearly defining the scope of what CSM is. I recommend committing information, such as it is, to as ready a reference as reasonably possible.
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Shinigami Zetsui
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:07:00 -
[185]
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:54:45 Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:53:34
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui So everyone voted for them to do as they please? Or were you talking about representing Goonswarm??
He wasn't elected to act as a proxy to players wishes, he was elected to make the decisions swiftly and in player's stead. He may do something one subset of players disagrees with, be it goons or another group, but that's beside the point. By choosing to elect him, the Eve playerbase as a whole gave him authorization to act on his own, because enough Eve players found mittens to be a capable enough guy to make those decisions. Beyond that, he doesn't owe us anything.
^^ Essentially a wordier version of what LordElfa said. He knows what's up. ^^
What do you think of my suggestion (in my first post) for improving CSM?
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Vile rat
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:12:00 -
[186]
Time dilation is a simple thing out of the gate we can focus on and highlight as a 'good idea' in a sea of ideas that vary between good and "unplug your keyboard, now".
It doesn't fix lag and is not the lag end game, but it does allow the game to break in a fair manner instead of creating an unbalanced playing field.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:15:00 -
[187]
Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 23:19:08
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sweet!
Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.
It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.
I guess that would depend on whether or not you're considering showing up just to try and be a disruptive tool to those attempting to actually get things done.
Originally by: Cortante This CSM is little more than a Northern Coalition CSM. The effect of Time Dilation will only help people bring a bigger blob, which favors the Northern Coalition.
Nothing Mittani or any of the other NC CSM members espouses will help smaller entities, nothing they espouse will break up the ****ty powerblocs that have choked out the flavor of 0.0. The first big idea? Making it easier to bring a blob and win.
End of the day, don't encourage Mittani or any of his yes-men by engaging with them, tell CCP that the CSM doesn't represent you and that CCP should take their ideas and opinions with the tiniest grain of salt.
If you don't like that NC worked hard to secure their place then stop crying and use the in game mechanics to change things. Why should CCP change the way the game works to make your play time easier? You want power blocks broken up then find a way to do it in EVE like stop expecting the developers to do your job for you.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:16:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Fuujin Or you can realize that the backlog exists because CCP doesn't prioritize any of them aside from maybe the low hanging fruit scoopd up by Team BFF. When you go to iceland and hand them 10,000 points and say "do these please, thanks!" the only rational response is to scratch your head and toss them in the back of the queue, since they're all "important" and given dissonant supprot.
Focusing on a few issues and selling them as singular priorities--even if they're backlog retreads--is far more likey to be effectively realized than tossing handfuls of random ideas out like chaff and hoping some stick.
The CSM backlog exists because one of the defined roles of the CSM is to vote on proposals raised by themselves or players. The ones that pass go into the backlog. They are not "rotting" there, they are simply stored there as potential ideas for future development/game changes. Either due to championing by CSM or being picked up by a CCP sprint team during a backlog review, some items get development resources assigned.
There will never come a time when every CSM item in the backlog is done, even if CCP were to stop right now and work on no other thing until the end of time. Why? Because items in the backlog are not evaluated by CSM at voting time based on what has been passed previously. Each idea is considered on its own merits. Therefore, many of the CSM items currently in the backlog aren't necessarily compatible with each other or what's implemented in the game right now.
It might be a thought for some CSM (maybe CSM6?) to review the backlogged CSM items with the goal of identifying obsolete items for removal or categorization as "Won'ts" in the MuSCOW scheme (used by CCP to categorize "stories" in its backlog). Doing so would likely reduce the actual number of items wanting dev love. At least this is possible now, since CCP finally tagged all the CSM backlogged items at CSM5's urging; until then, you couldn't query the backlog and pull out a list of just CSM items. I have sometimes wonder how much that has influenced the attention so many items got during CSM5's term.
Chair, CSM5 My Blog: Life In Low Sec |
UAxDEATH
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:19:00 -
[189]
As Mitten`s said before. We had no idea about it. Greyscale didn't come to us, and that we think CCP 'snuck it past the CSM' between CSM5/CSM6 handover, and that we're mad about it. We think 0.0 needs a set of large scale changes, not a single nerf/boost here and there.
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Axhind
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:31:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Camios Edited by: Camios on 11/04/2011 22:24:18 While Time Dilation will probably solve the unfairness due to lag, Time Dilation will not change the game; the way to survive will always be "bring more people" and we'll hit the server limit again. Time dilation sounds like a plaster on a really more complicated problem that would need a gameplay fix instead: Null Security space has evolved in a poor way: either you blob or play the elitist game with SCs.
Coalitions gameplay is the problem. While its scale is fascinating and awe inspiring, it kills the server (and will kill it even with time dilation, perhaps even if the playerbase does not keep growing). But please note I'm not against coalitions, I'm not against PL. I'm against the fact that if you don't play one of these roles you cannot survive in nowadays 0.0; thus if you want to survive you must play that server killing game. To solve the problem beyond Time Dilation, we'll either need a radical sov mechanic change (so that battles are fought over many sistems at once) or some tools for the small independent entities
Don't nerf coalitions, just boost the ability of small independent entities to survive in nullsec without blues. It should not involve POSes and Outpost, but smaller and less visible stuff.
This is actually not the case. Time dilation can scale much better with the load and chances are very good that it would outstrip the amount of players people can/want bring. It is true that game should change to enable more spread out use of force (this can be accomplished tactically by attacking several systems for example) but that does not mean that fixing the underlying engine to scale correctly with the load is a bad thing. It just solves a huge issue that is annoying a ton of players and improves on the main draw of eve (truly epic battles and conflicts).
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Infinion
Caldari Awesome Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:32:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Cortante The effect of Time Dilation will only help people bring a bigger blob, which favors the Northern Coalition.
Time Dilation is being designed to prevent server lockups during large fleet fights. Lockups are unfair because the servers don't process all of the incoming requests at the same time. If an alliance is capable of fielding more ships after Time Dilation is implemented, then that's great; it reflects their true capabilities.
Originally by: Cortante
Nothing Mittani or any of the other NC CSM members espouses will help smaller entities, nothing they espouse will break up the ****ty powerblocs that have choked out the flavor of 0.0. The first big idea? Making it easier to bring a blob and win.
End of the day, don't encourage Mittani or any of his yes-men by engaging with them, tell CCP that the CSM doesn't represent you and that CCP should take their ideas and opinions with the tiniest grain of salt.
Dude the servers aren't supposed to limit blobs in a fleet fight or affect gameplay in any way. Fixing the balance of power between small alliances and powerblocs in 0.0 isn't something the CSM are capable of resolving on their own. If there was such an easy solution to it that wouldn't break the game, it would have already been implemented. The CSM were elected out of our own playerbase by us, and we all have the inventive capability to solve these problems. So instead of criticizing them, realize that the power of the CSM emanates from 2 things: Their ability to directly communicate with the developers, and their efforts to seek and recite the ideas and concerns of the playerbase.
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BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:34:00 -
[192]
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 23:34:38
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui What do you think of my suggestion (in my first post) for improving CSM?
What? That deluded mess? CCP will never give that much dev control to a player elected board. The involvement of the CSM is as SCRUM stakeholders, which means that occasionally CCP will show the CSM what they've got, let the CSM respond, and either consider or ignore their opinion. What Mittens is trying to do is to get CCP to do more of the former and less of the latter, hence why Time Dilation was brought up in the first place: it's a good idea that CCP said they wanted to do, the CSM is spotlighting it so CCP doesn't go ADD and implement yet another half-implemented worthless feature instead.
Considering how many years it took CCP to let players even get THIS involved, I think you'd best stay content for the time being.
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Marconus Orion
S.E.G.W.A.Y.
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:43:00 -
[193]
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:44:00 -
[194]
Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 23:46:11
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Considering how many years it took CCP to let players even get THIS involved, I think you'd best stay content for the time being.
You sir ask too much!!!
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Then by all means, Don't Go!!! stay home and mine some more, whatever makes you feel warm, fuzzy and safe.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:49:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Mynxee
The CSM backlog exists because one of the defined roles of the CSM is to vote on proposals raised by themselves or players. The ones that pass go into the backlog. They are not "rotting" there, they are simply stored there as potential ideas for future development/game changes. Either due to championing by CSM or being picked up by a CCP sprint team during a backlog review, some items get development resources assigned.
There will never come a time when every CSM item in the backlog is done, even if CCP were to stop right now and work on no other thing until the end of time. Why? Because items in the backlog are not evaluated by CSM at voting time based on what has been passed previously. Each idea is considered on its own merits. Therefore, many of the CSM items currently in the backlog aren't necessarily compatible with each other or what's implemented in the game right now.
It might be a thought for some CSM (maybe CSM6?) to review the backlogged CSM items with the goal of identifying obsolete items for removal or categorization as "Won'ts" in the MuSCOW scheme (used by CCP to categorize "stories" in its backlog). Doing so would likely reduce the actual number of items wanting dev love. At least this is possible now, since CCP finally tagged all the CSM backlogged items at CSM5's urging; until then, you couldn't query the backlog and pull out a list of just CSM items. I have sometimes wonder how much that has influenced the attention so many items got during CSM5's term.
Which just goes to my point. The CSM needs to be more than an Assembly Hall Bad Idea Aggregator; it needs to evaluate and apply some critical thinking to the ideas it advances. Much like the "coming soon" page that used to be in the patch section of the website, you can very easily load up on "sounds cool" ideas and never get anywhere--which not coincidentally is what has happened with almost every other CSM. Aside from advising CCP on a few issues that were already underway (sov revamp comes to mind) and getting some low-hanging fruit through (learning skills, learning queue) there is little obvious "we did this" evidence of the CSM ever doing anything than serving as a PR setpiece for CCP.
The backlog and how best to handle it, as Mittani and others mentioned during the campaign, is probably going to be a major focus during CSM6.
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Dr Herpes
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:49:00 -
[196]
In my opinion good progress was made with the last CSM and their work should be continued. Specifically the jump bridge nerfs and cyno spool up ideas which recieved unanimous support from the CSM. Also all the small issues identified with crowd sourcing. It would be real shame just to throw that all away.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Zor Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:52:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 11/04/2011 23:54:19
Originally by: LordElfa
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Then by all means, Don't Go!!! stay home and mine some more, whatever makes you feel warm, fuzzy and safe. Yes, Goons take advantage of fools in EVE, that's the damn game after all. You don't want to get taken by Goons, don't be a fool.
That said, I'm not worried about them harvesting IP's in mumble. Paranoid much?
Hardly paranoid when this is exactly what they did when they got hold of a copy of the PL forums.
The fact that this is being promoted by CCP is really poor.
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BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:53:00 -
[198]
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 23:55:18
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or better yet, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:54:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Dr Herpes In my opinion good progress was made with the last CSM and their work should be continued. Specifically the jump bridge nerfs and cyno spool up ideas which recieved unanimous support from the CSM. Also all the small issues identified with crowd sourcing. It would be real shame just to throw that all away.
Do you also think that Obama should have gone on with Bush's agenda as well? New management means new priorities. Enough about crapping jump bridge nerfing. It was a bad idea when it was mentioned and its still bad. I won't even address cyno spool.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Dodgy Past
Amarr Zor Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:56:00 -
[200]
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?
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Jonathan Malcom
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:58:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Jonathan Malcom on 11/04/2011 23:58:28
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?
I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, using IP addresses to identify and eliminate spies from your organization is a fairly common practice.
Were the IP addresses that were obtained used in any other fashion?
Edit: Seriouspost. I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 23:59:00 -
[202]
Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 00:02:39 Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 00:01:54
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?
Why did you let your forum leak? If you get struck by lightening for holding an umbrella in a thunderstorm, you don't blame the lightning or the umbrella.
If I'm not mistaken, Goon uses those IP's to compare against members in their own forums to keep out your infiltrators. What benefit would they get from a thousand random players who can't really be linked to EVE accounts by their IP's?
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:00:00 -
[203]
Alert! Your computer is broadcasting an IP address!!!!11
Settle down frances. Consider: you log in unregistered, and you can put any name you want in. Even if we were harvesting IPs from this they'd be worse than useless since there would be no association with your identity.
"Someone who claims to be "fuzzybunny243 at 64.34.23.144 plays Eve Online or is interested in eve online enough to listen to an internet spaceship council nasally drone on for an hour!"
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GRIEV3R
Gallente Galactic Defence Consortium STR8NGE BREW
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:03:00 -
[204]
Time Dilation sounds like a cool idea.
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felchergod
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:12:00 -
[205]
I'm going to have to say I think jump bridge nerfs, cyno spool up and moongoo redistribution sound like much better and easier to implement ideas than some slomo bullet time crap. Fix small gang pvp, leave the blobbers to roll in their own soiled bed.
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Zor Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:13:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 12/04/2011 00:14:34
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, using IP addresses to identify and eliminate spies from your organization is a fairly common practice.
Were the IP addresses that were obtained used in any other fashion?
Edit: Seriouspost. I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.
Nor do I since they were made available to anyone with an internet connection, not the most responsible behaviour of an individual who is now going to be able to collect a whole lot more IPs.
It is an unfortunate situation that the individual who is responsible for security for CCP and might be someone who could / should call foul can be accused of bias ( notice please I said can be accused, not is biased ).
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Axhind
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:19:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?
From what I could tell reading your forums PL is doing exact same thing. So either you are arguing for a ban for your tech staff or you are slightly hypocritical.
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VC General
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:27:00 -
[208]
Quote: 1. CCP is under no obligation to interact with the CSM outside of the strict confines of the CCP/CSM Summits.
I don't get this part of the letter. Only an idiot would assume that CCP immediately and automatically implements any ideas the CSM decides on. At the same time, I figure it would be a reasonable expectation that CSM would have constructive dialog with CCP on a regular basis. They make it sound like CCP meets with them once in awhile for PR, and doesn't really care what they think anymore than some random guy posting in the forums. If that's the case, then what is the point of CSM? The same goal of getting occasional player feedback could be achieved by just reading the forums. If the first part of the letter just means that CCP doesn't HAVE to listen to the CSM, well, that's obvious. I would certainly hope they do, though. Otherwise you guys are just a waste of everyone's time.
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Sethose Olderon
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:53:00 -
[209]
Time Dilation is one solution to crippled fleet engagements in nullsec, but what CSM6 I think fails to realize, is that there is more to Eve than nullsec. It's been years since we were promised an industry overhaul and it keeps getting pushed to the rear because of crap like this.
If it weren't for the industrialists who also deal with crappy mechanics, none of you would have ships. Don't forget about us, the mechanics we use need attention as well!
Let the flame-war ensue... Alliance Owned Stargates
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:58:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Marconus Orion Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.
Simple solution: download the recordings after they're released then. vOv
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2011.04.12 00:59:00 -
[211]
Well hello there. Guess I should poke my head in here since it was me who spilled the beans about Time Dilation at the roundtable and soforth.
Originally by: Evelgrivion Nothing wrong with time dilation, but if it was already in the development pipeline. Time Dilation was presented during discussions over the term with CSM5, and it was a topic at fanfest roundtables. With a project so far along, I don't want to hear about it from the CSM, I want to hear about it from CCP.
It's been on the long term plan since Gridlock was formed. At that time there was plenty of easy things to fix that improved base performance way out of proportion with the effort needed to make them. We still find those occasionally, but the field is getting rougher.
Because of that, we've been transitioning to bigger projects, and so this naturally has come to the forefront again. I'm glad it came up during the roundtable at Fanfest so I could get some feedback on it outside of the CSM summit cycle. Turns out there's a lot of positive feedback about it, so that moves it right up to the forefront for me. Not our lone focus, but one of them.
Originally by: Cyaxares II CCP will have to pay very close attention to the changes to gameplay mechanics that would result from the interaction of dilated and "real time" parts of EVE (session timers, structure timers, logoff timers, warp/movement speed, ...).
I don't expect this to be easy at all and am a little afraid that a naive "let's just make all modules cycle slower" implementation might get pushed out without careful assessment of the consequences.
Oh indeed, this is no easy peasy task. Thankfully for you, making modules cycle slower probably wouldn't even solve much, so not much risk of us going with that kind of half-solution.
You have, incidentally, pointed out one of the biggest nasties involved here - making sure that dilated time (modules, physics) and normal time (structure timers and the like) don't ever mix. That's going to be fun.
Originally by: Maplestone Is the general "O" of fleet battles known? That is to say, how does the computational power required scale with the number of ships in a large battle?
Not precisely. It's not linear in the number of ships - there's some fundamentally n^2 problems involved. We're not fully n^2 either...it's somewhere in between. It's shifted a lot since Gridlock was formed as well, so I'm afraid I can't really tell ya where it's at today because I don't know.
Originally by: J Kunjeh I'm waiting with giddy anticipation at the Dev blog to come Soon on the time dilation thing to know for sure, but I'm fairly certain it could be implemented to scale....so the more people load the node, the more it dilates.
I'll ruin the surprise - the idea is to dynamically slow down time as the server needs in order to remain responsive. There'll probably have to be a limit *somewhere*, but I can't say where that'll be...I'll probably need to do some trial 'n' error on that one to find a happy balance.
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:00:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Spooks'em The first thing I wanted to say is Team Gridlock best Gridlock.
<3
Originally by: Spooks'em Secondly, Time Dilation is an overdue idea and absolutely essential to the future growth and vibrancy of Eve.
<3 <3 <3
Originally by: Spooks'em Third, Time Dilation will not fix any of the problems in Eve. It might seem like the perfect solution but if it takes me 9 minutes(~32x time dilation) to cycle my 1400's to keep the game playable I, and many people, are not going to be playing Eve for very long.
Awwwww. Well, let me put it this way, a situation that'll require running at 3% normal time isn't going to be particularly playable as we stand today. It's my sincere hope that such a setup (which I'd wager would be beyond our current record in one system) would be more agreeable in a dilated system than it is today.
I mean, it's not like you're going to be able to toss 3000 people in a system and have things running hunky dorry just because of time dilation. It's going to be slow, but it's also going to be more fair, more predictable, and have the game mechanics intact. I think that's a solid improvement.
Does it solve lag forever and ever? Nope. Nothing short of putting hard limits on how many players can participate in a fight will. I don't see us doing that any time soon, so the war against lag goes on~
Originally by: Lots of People Stuff about CSM effectiveness
I can only really speak for myself, but I found some of the CSM5 delegates to be a fantastic resource when it came to finding out how, exactly, lag effects the players. I'm not particularly into the 0.0 game, so that window into the player experience has been of great value to me. It has allowed me to identify problems that didn't appear to be nasty from a purely technical standpoint, but were a major barrier to the player experience. I'm hoping to build upon that relationship with CSM6 - so far so good.
Anyways, I'll cook up a devblog about this all in the near future.
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Mitchello
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:11:00 -
[213]
<3 |
The Mittani
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:12:00 -
[214]
that was a lot faster of a response than we had been expecting; i'm just gonna go ahead ~lean back~ a bit to chill now
booyah
The Mittani for CSM6 Sins of a Solar Spymaster
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UAxDEATH
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:14:00 -
[215]
Originally by: CCP Veritas
I can only really speak for myself, but I found some of the CSM5 delegates to be a fantastic resource when it came to finding out how, exactly, lag effects the players. I'm not particularly into the 0.0 game, so that window into the player experience has been of great value to me. It has allowed me to identify problems that didn't appear to be nasty from a purely technical standpoint, but were a major barrier to the player experience. I'm hoping to build upon that relationship with CSM6 - so far so good.
Anyways, I'll cook up a devblog about this all in the near future.
<3
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:27:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Sethose Olderon
Time Dilation is one solution to crippled fleet engagements in nullsec, and I agree something should be done about lag. However, what CSM6 I think fails to realize, is that there is more to Eve than nullsec.
I'm not so sure they fail to realize this, it's just the first thing to be focused upon.
Originally by: Sethose Olderon
It's been years since we were promised an industry overhaul and it keeps getting pushed to the rear because of crap like this. If it weren't for the industrialists who also deal with crappy mechanics, none of you would have ships. Don't forget about us, the mechanics we use need attention as well!
I couldn't agree more. Even now I keep cursing various "aspects" of even the newly added PI, f.ex the import/export part is annoyingly clunky, the setup phase is annoyingly clunky, etc. And don't get me started on the ****can that is the POS production processes control interface. I'd stab people with a fork to get that **** fixed. Even something as simple as just being able to reorganize the processes to something I think of as a logical order would make me a happy man.
Let the flame-war ensue...
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 01:40:00 -
[217]
Originally by: CCP Veritas It's been on the long term plan since Gridlock was formed. At that time there was plenty of easy things to fix that improved base performance way out of proportion with the effort needed to make them. We still find those occasionally, but the field is getting rougher.
Not really on-topic, but I keep dreaming about seeing things like drones, fighters, fighter bombers, missiles etc moved from the solar system process (where I assume it is now) to a pr player process so it would be much simpler to scale up to almost limitless fights.
I'm assuming there's tons of issues involved in this which makes it unrealistic, alternatively tons of sync issues, so just for my own sake, please shoot my idea down in a fire. :D
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.04.12 02:31:00 -
[218]
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Maplestone Is the general "O" of fleet battles known? That is to say, how does the computational power required scale with the number of ships in a large battle?
Not precisely. It's not linear in the number of ships - there's some fundamentally n^2 problems involved. We're not fully n^2 either...it's somewhere in between. It's shifted a lot since Gridlock was formed as well, so I'm afraid I can't really tell ya where it's at today because I don't know.
Thanks :)
My fear in watching this discussion evolve is that players are going to fix their imagination on the idea of time dialation being linear (2x as many ships takes only 2x as long for time-dilated cycles to pass) and be disappointed at the results if it gets implmented.
I like the idea of gracefully failing an overloaded server but I'd recommend that people keep a full O(n^2) vision in their imaginations when thinking of time dialation: imagine 2x as many ships as the minimum to induce lag would slow the game to 1/4 speed; 10x as many ships would slow to 1/100th speed.
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Mattress Lover
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 02:42:00 -
[219]
Lag ruins fleet battles and smart operators have used it to their benefit for a long time. Many battles have been won in a completely unfair way, hopefully time dilation will level the playing field. As a 0.0 resident I support CPP 100% in this endeavor.
I knew Mittani would be brilliant as a chairman, so far he's living up to expectations.
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Rex Augustus
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.04.12 03:12:00 -
[220]
I'm really rather impressed at the quick reply from CCP myself, tbh.
That said - Time Dilation is a band aid. Even Veritas admits it's such -
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Oh indeed, this is no easy peasy task. Thankfully for you, making modules cycle slower probably wouldn't even solve much, so not much risk of us going with that kind of half-solution.
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Nypheas Azurai
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Posted - 2011.04.12 03:13:00 -
[221]
"Public" goon mumble server is password-protected. fail.
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RooSan
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Posted - 2011.04.12 03:35:00 -
[222]
Hey good read and congratulations to all that are involved in the new CSM6
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DurrHurrDurr
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Posted - 2011.04.12 03:39:00 -
[223]
Edited by: DurrHurrDurr on 12/04/2011 03:40:05 I see the term blobbing consistently thrown around in this thread, and time and time again the griping about the term makes me laugh.
There's no practical way to break n+1. If there's no artificial limit to the amount of people that can be brought to an engagement, one side will always bring more. If an artificial limit is introduced, then the game isn't really a sandbox anymore.
The usage of the term blobbing itself, however, has always been pretty hilarious to me. In a game where success is inevitably one of the only metrics by which any group will be judged, it's mindboggling to me that players still have their heads so deep in the ground that they don't realize that the amassment, management and deployment of large volumes of people is in and of itself an issue that alliances have to deal with. The "remove blobbing" aspect just isn't ever going to happen, especially in a game such as EVE Online. People will always figure out a way to either bypass or tilt the scales to their advantage so the other side can't win.
Let's say, hypothetically (and this is a completely unrealistic, hypothetical situation) CCP places population caps on fleets entering a contested area of a region to 200, with some sort of magical mechanic that doesn't allow other blue fleets to enter. You'd think that both sides would be on even footing if they each brought 200; however, the larger force will get around this artificial limit by simply increasing the worth of their ships and their fittings to compensate.
Let me put it like this; TEST Alliance Please Ignore (my alliance) reimburses its pilots. Let's say that, hypothetically, we can field 500 man fleets on our own. Our alliance reimburses its pilots. If we were restricted to 200 people out of that 500, all we would do is adjust our ships fielded. Instead of bringing 500 maelstroms, we'd bring 200 machariels. Instead of having a T2 heat dissipation field, we'd use faction dissipation fields.
The larger entity, without strict regulation, will always find a way to n+1 their opponent, whether it's through "blobbing", fielding more expensive ships, fitting them more expensively, and so on. To restrict this would mean to effectively make EVE no longer a sandbox.
It's simply impractical to attempt to design a system where a smaller group can fight a significantly larger one. The only factor that might change this currently is supercapitals, but the volume of supercapitals tends to favour the larger entities as well. And even then they'll fall into the n+1 issue so many complain about.
To summarize this post curtly: Stop complaining about blobbing. There's no practical way to fix it, it's going to stay around, and it's mindboggling that people still frown upon effective use of resources (in this case people) to win fights. In modern EVE, a fair fight simply means that one side made a mistake in their preparation. They don't really happen anymore.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.04.12 04:04:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 12/04/2011 04:13:19
Originally by: LordElfa
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: LordElfa Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.
Thats the effect Goons usually have on ppl
and its not about whove theyve killed... who am I kidding this HAS to be a troll lol Good one
No, I'm dead ass serious about this. CSM6 is not the damn Goonswarm. People need to learn to separate the game from real life. In game, the members of CSM6 may play ruthlessly and for keeps, but out of game, many of them are professionals who are taking their roles in the CSM very seriously in order to make this game better. Why can't people see that?!
lol worthy. again, nice troll attempt, but a little too emotional. I love what they think of US tho:
Quote: So today we have our first dev blog, where the above is announced, and the attending terrible forum thread full of idiots.
lol we love you guys too
Originally by: LordElfa
No, they voted for them because they trust them
bwa haha HAH HAH HAA HAH HAH LOL LOL
.... AH HAH HAH
oh man thats the second funniest thing Ive read all day -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.12 06:35:00 -
[225]
...and I'm the troll.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2011.04.12 06:45:00 -
[226]
Originally by: LordElfa ...and I'm the troll.
I'd say sycophant.
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Pherick Sjang
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 07:43:00 -
[227]
I've read through every post thus far in this (p. terrible) thread, and it wasn't really until CCP Veritas's comments that I really started to feel hopeful.
I see a lot of hurf blurfing about "Time Dilation is just a bandaid, even CCP Veritas admits it!"
Well, yes. Time Dilation is just a bandaid. It is the bandaid that closes the wound that.. this is a terrible metaphor. It's a small fix addressing a symptom of a bigger problem, but the first step in solving the bigger problem is creating a system where failures are handled tidily rather than in a massive node-crashing disaster.
It's unrealistic to expect CCP to sit down and completely rewrite the game RIGHT NOW TODAY to fix ALL LAG EVERYWHERE FOREVER. But it is completely realistic to work toward addressing the worst symptoms of lag. There will still be an upper limit of ships in system beyond which the time dilation makes things go too slowly to be worth the effort. But we need to stop thinking about this in terms of "making room for 10,000 player fights" and more in terms of "making it so that 500, 600, 1000, 2000 players can fight and it will only be really annoying, and not just a complete disaster."
Once a system for graceful failures is in place, going forward into the future, lag can be more easily addressed at its roots, because things won't burst into flames as soon as person n+1 jumps into the system.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.12 07:56:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Originally by: LordElfa ...and I'm the troll.
I'd say sycophant.
I play EVE, of course I'm a sycophant.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Dodgy Past
Amarr Zor Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.12 07:56:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Mattress Lover Lag ruins fleet battles and smart operators have used it to their benefit for a long time. Many battles have been won in a completely unfair way, hopefully time dilation will level the playing field. As a 0.0 resident I support CPP 100% in this endeavor.
I knew Mittani would be brilliant as a chairman, so far he's living up to expectations.
LOL, nothing to do with the hard work of the 'useless CSM 5'.
Think I can see where this is heading, free trips to Iceland, no work and claiming credit for those that went before you while maintaining a PR smear campaign.
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Sirhan Blixt
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 08:09:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Dodgy Past LOL, nothing to do with the hard work of the 'useless CSM 5'.
Think I can see where this is heading, free trips to Iceland, no work and claiming credit for those that went before you while maintaining a PR smear campaign.
Troll smarter, not harder. |
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.12 08:14:00 -
[231]
Quote: I can only really speak for myself, but I found some of the CSM5 delegates to be a fantastic resource when it came to finding out how, exactly, lag effects the players. I'm not particularly into the 0.0 game, so that window into the player experience has been of great value to me. It has allowed me to identify problems that didn't appear to be nasty from a purely technical standpoint, but were a major barrier to the player experience. I'm hoping to build upon that relationship with CSM6 - so far so good.
Anyways, I'll cook up a devblog about this all in the near future.
Yes and I am sure CCP greyscale (aka "CSM LALALALALLALALALLALA I dont hear you") would say the same on the forums, and then continue with completely ignoring them...
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.04.12 08:20:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: I can only really speak for myself, but I found some of the CSM5 delegates to be a fantastic resource when it came to finding out how, exactly, lag effects the players. I'm not particularly into the 0.0 game, so that window into the player experience has been of great value to me. It has allowed me to identify problems that didn't appear to be nasty from a purely technical standpoint, but were a major barrier to the player experience. I'm hoping to build upon that relationship with CSM6 - so far so good.
Anyways, I'll cook up a devblog about this all in the near future.
Yes and I am sure CCP greyscale (aka "CSM LALALALALLALALALLALA I dont hear you") would say the same on the forums, and then continue with completely ignoring them...
He did listen to the players. He just didn't happen to agree with you.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.12 08:34:00 -
[233]
You are stupid, seriously...
If you would have bothered reading my post instead of heading straight for the troll mobile, you would have noticed I was talking about the CSM. You know, the topic here also. Greyscale from CCP who really cares so much about the CSM, did NEVER inform the CSM about his ideas (which i think are ******ed beyond words, but that is irrelevant, even you should agree it is a huge change and it would be kinda logical to talk with the CSM about it). Aditionally the dev blog was timed such that the CSM and others could not ask about it during the 0.0 roundtable.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.12 09:50:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Rex Augustus That said - Time Dilation is a band aid. Even Veritas admits it's such.
Of course. It's a short/medium term solution, and provides a way to prevent the server from melting. It's good, and it's necessary (and will be a useful part of Carbon), but in the longer term, people will be whining that "We got down to a τ-factor of .1 last night! CCP, fix tau!".
And that longer-term will of course be shorter than anyone expects.
In the long term, the only solution is game-mechanics tweaks that naturally limit engagement sizes to those the servers can reasonably handle at reasonable τ. Time Dilation is one of several tweaks that buys the time to find that solution.
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2011.04.12 10:57:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
In the long term, the only solution is game-mechanics tweaks that naturally limit engagement sizes to those the servers can reasonably handle at reasonable τ. Time Dilation is one of several tweaks that buys the time to find that solution.
As far as I'm concerned I have no interest in limiting engagement size in any way, shape or form. Making them "not a requirement" and finding ways not to make smaller engagements systematically escalate is more on my agenda...
Either way, there's no discussion time dilitation would be a good thing. ----- Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.12 11:03:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 12/04/2011 11:03:54 Which end up to be pretty much the same, since Trebor said naturally limitting the engagement sizes, not some kind of hardcap as what your version of what he said implies.
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Liandra Xi
Amarr The New Era C0NVICTED
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Posted - 2011.04.12 11:08:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Liandra Xi on 12/04/2011 11:11:37 CSM6 = Best CSM
aka I fully endorse this service/product.
Loving Mittens work as Chairman so far, lets see if he and the other CSM can actually turn an epic idea into reality or not though.
edit: its impossible to fix lag forever, its a constant race against the hardware, etc... that will never be won, so this is the next best solution i've ever heard of that will actually allow epic fights AND make it fair for everyone in the fight. bring it on.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.12 11:11:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Mynxee on 12/04/2011 11:13:34
Originally by: Fuujin
Originally by: Mynxee
The CSM backlog exists because one of the defined roles of the CSM is to vote on proposals raised by themselves or players. The ones that pass go into the backlog. They are not "rotting" there, they are simply stored there as potential ideas for future development/game changes. Either due to championing by CSM or being picked up by a CCP sprint team during a backlog review, some items get development resources assigned.
There will never come a time when every CSM item in the backlog is done, even if CCP were to stop right now and work on no other thing until the end of time. Why? Because items in the backlog are not evaluated by CSM at voting time based on what has been passed previously. Each idea is considered on its own merits. Therefore, many of the CSM items currently in the backlog aren't necessarily compatible with each other or what's implemented in the game right now.
It might be a thought for some CSM (maybe CSM6?) to review the backlogged CSM items with the goal of identifying obsolete items for removal or categorization as "Won'ts" in the MuSCOW scheme (used by CCP to categorize "stories" in its backlog). Doing so would likely reduce the actual number of items wanting dev love. At least this is possible now, since CCP finally tagged all the CSM backlogged items at CSM5's urging; until then, you couldn't query the backlog and pull out a list of just CSM items. I have sometimes wonder how much that has influenced the attention so many items got during CSM5's term.
Which just goes to my point. The CSM needs to be more than an Assembly Hall Bad Idea Aggregator; it needs to evaluate and apply some critical thinking to the ideas it advances. Much like the "coming soon" page that used to be in the patch section of the website, you can very easily load up on "sounds cool" ideas and never get anywhere--which not coincidentally is what has happened with almost every other CSM. Aside from advising CCP on a few issues that were already underway (sov revamp comes to mind) and getting some low-hanging fruit through (learning skills, learning queue) there is little obvious "we did this" evidence of the CSM ever doing anything than serving as a PR setpiece for CCP.
The backlog and how best to handle it, as Mittani and others mentioned during the campaign, is probably going to be a major focus during CSM6.
There has been plenty of critical thinking applied to proposals by most delegates in the process of choosing which to raise and then during discussions in the group when a proposal is raised for a vote. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement to the process, but the challenge will be to make it better while continuing to keep players in the loop and provide them with a structured, publicly visible method for submitting their ideas to the CSM queue.
Chair, CSM5 My Blog: Life In Low Sec |
Liosa Rearl
Caldari The Lost Legion Bang Bang You're Dead
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Posted - 2011.04.12 11:25:00 -
[239]
To the current delegates on CSM6
I pledge support to your cause as you guys write sense. Regardless of other's perceptions, you guys seem to be doing what you said you would do. I hope that many more of my fellow pilots will support your cause.
if 300000 pilots screamed about the same thing and were united on something, CCP would move. CSM6 has made an example and focused on one object.
Now if the rest you you ******s out there whining about goonswarm this and goonswarm that would just stfu, this thread would be a lot cleaner. I don't like goonswarm either but the CSM is not freaking goonswarm.
Sheesh.
Good luck CSM6 "If you can't accept the fact that you're going to get shafted, quit the bloody game." |
Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 11:51:00 -
[240]
It is very surprising to see a PL dude trolling so hard in this thread The current CSM is simply trying to make sure this does not happen again.
Everyone should watch that video, what do you do in this situation ? All the capitals you see literally slaughtered where just looking at a black screen. Now one might say 'it is their fault for playing in the lag', but I would hope most people have enough commen sense to realise that if they did not fight the only other option would be to roll over and surrender your space that many people have bled hours of hard work and many months of their life to secure and maintain.
2 years it takes to skill into one of those ships and they cost up to 60bill plus properly fitted. And people in highsec cry about losing a hulk to hulkageddon, 200 mill and 3 months training.
Food for thought maybe.
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Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:01:00 -
[241]
Time dialation makes sense to counter the problems but CCP you need to make sure it doesnt extend the lenght of battles.
3/4/5 hr battles are a pain especially if you work or have school etc, if all you do is double the times your still *in theory* risking increasing battle lengths to 6-10 hrs and not sure about most people but I know even on a weekend when I have nothing else to do I'm slightly against devoting the entire day to fighting.
Id suggest increasing damage output of guns etc to counter the increase in wait. IE double the cycle time, double the damage per shot.
My suggestion but im not a game developer (or a massive PvPer TBH), so its probably full of carp.
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Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:07:00 -
[242]
That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:20:00 -
[243]
CSM 6 best CSM? ---
Originally by: Sporked EVE IS DYING RUN TO THE HILLS! WE MIGHT HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS MMO! THEY MIGHT SHOOT AT US WHILE WE ARE BUSY HOLDING HANDS AND FROLICKING! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:34:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the long term, the only solution is game-mechanics tweaks that naturally limit engagement sizes to those the servers can reasonably handle at reasonable τ. Time Dilation is one of several tweaks that buys the time to find that solution.
As long as the tweaks encourage (something like multiple sov objectives or whatever) and not force these limits, that's fine. If you try to force limits in anything that's PVP related, you'll get a big fat "no" from me. You can limit in PVE all you want and I won't give a flying ****, but stay away from PVP content with hard limits.
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Camios
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:35:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
And keep using maelstroms for 25k alpha strikes, and thrash logistics.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:37:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Camios
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
And keep using maelstroms for 25k alpha strikes, and thrash logistics.
How dare we use game mechanics to win fights.
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Razzor Death
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:46:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Camios
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
And keep using maelstroms for 25k alpha strikes, and thrash logistics.
Don't worry our t1 gunned maelstroms have no problem thrashing logistics as it is.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:56:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In the long term, the only solution is game-mechanics tweaks that naturally limit engagement sizes to those the servers can reasonably handle at reasonable τ. Time Dilation is one of several tweaks that buys the time to find that solution.
As long as the tweaks encourage (something like multiple sov objectives or whatever) and not force these limits, that's fine.
This has ever been my philosophy, and time dilation has the virtue of permitting those encouragements to be more subtle, because the overall system degrades more gracefully.
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 13:20:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Lord Zim on 12/04/2011 13:24:28
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow This has ever been my philosophy, and time dilation has the virtue of permitting those encouragements to be more subtle, because the overall system degrades more gracefully.
I think you'll find that the time dilation won't really make us stop trying to outblob the other guy (take DRF/NC skirmishes as an example), in fact I predict that as long as SOV is the way it is now, time dilation will only exacerbate the problem.
edit: and by "the problem", I mean the problem of bringing more dudes, not lag. So not really a problem, more a feature.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.12 13:42:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow This has ever been my philosophy, and time dilation has the virtue of permitting those encouragements to be more subtle, because the overall system degrades more gracefully.
I think you'll find that the time dilation won't really make us stop trying to outblob the other guy (take DRF/NC skirmishes as an example), in fact I predict that as long as SOV is the way it is now, time dilation will only exacerbate the problem.
Which has been my point since my original campaign for CSM5 -- "Fleets expand to fit the lag (or time-dilation) available". Time-dilation, or any technical lag fix, just buys you time to make game design changes that render server-melting blobbing a non-optimal tactic.
What those game design changes are, of course, is an entirely different discussion.
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 13:51:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow What those game design changes are, of course, is an entirely different discussion.
And as long as those design chances aren't of the fog of war type, but are designed to try to encourage people to hit more targets because the front line is more than 1 system wide at any given time, we're on the same page.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.12 14:11:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Lord Zim Edited by: Lord Zim on 12/04/2011 14:05:09
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow What those game design changes are, of course, is an entirely different discussion.
And as long as those design chances aren't of the fog of war type, but are designed to try to encourage people to hit more targets because the front line is more than 1 system wide at any given time, we're on the same page.
Edit: Unless, of course, we're looking at a chokepoint which makes it difficult to sneak around, but I like it when stakes are high occasionally.
Which again is only the case if we are talking about a continious fight, and not based arround some timers. Now timers could have a smaller place, but if you put a bunch of fights at different locations but still at all the same time, the goal is still to bring as many people as possible at a select few timers.
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Ratnose Banker
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Posted - 2011.04.12 14:55:00 -
[253]
Edited by: Ratnose Banker on 12/04/2011 14:55:07 Eve will honestly be a lot better with time dilation and all the great changes coming soon like jump bridge nerfs, ability to attack moon miners etc. Can't wait!
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Ming ChaChing
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Posted - 2011.04.12 15:52:00 -
[254]
Edited by: Ming ChaChing on 12/04/2011 15:54:07 [removed]
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Ming Sying
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.12 15:55:00 -
[255]
I hate fleet battles. You spend hours station spinning waiting for a fleet op to start, then you finally jumpbridge into a black screen which you sit at for about 15 minutes before your connection either drops or you reload into a station having died. It also sucks that if you do make it into the star system, your modules don't toggle off, commands don't get sent to the server, and it just becomes a bunch of looping animations until the server craps out 30 minutes later.
If time dilation fixes those issues, eve fleet battles will finally become fun again.
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Awesome Tough Guy
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Posted - 2011.04.12 18:57:00 -
[256]
I knew voting for mittens would turn out well
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:31:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
I think its double the cycle time and have the same damage per cycle, but also double the cycle time on all forms of repping, including passive regen.
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:18:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
I think its double the cycle time and have the same damage per cycle, but also double the cycle time on all forms of repping, including passive regen.
i would *hope* that such balancing factors would be implemented... perhaps while time dilates and damage increases to match, passive regen and logi rep effects would also increase so they "look" like they are happening at RT speed?
otherwise large fleet fights would simply turn into wtfbbqpwnfests!
/me is not a coder or game dev... shrugs at possible fullacrapness... __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:19:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
I think its double the cycle time and have the same damage per cycle, but also double the cycle time on all forms of repping, including passive regen.
The original idea about doubling the damage was to speed up the battle so that a normal 3hour battle doesn't become a 6hour battle. Simply buffing/nerfing logi's I personally don't think would have a massive effect on battle lengths, but as I stopped partaking of fleet pew shortly after the great lagageddon I have no idea how heavy a role logi's play these days.
Would be interesting to see some shiny graphs on this, feck knows how you go about it though.
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Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:25:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Shaera Taam
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
I think its double the cycle time and have the same damage per cycle, but also double the cycle time on all forms of repping, including passive regen.
i would *hope* that such balancing factors would be implemented... perhaps while time dilates and damage increases to match, passive regen and logi rep effects would also increase so they "look" like they are happening at RT speed?
otherwise large fleet fights would simply turn into wtfbbqpwnfests!
/me is not a coder or game dev... shrugs at possible fullacrapness...
Completely counters the point of speeding up the battle resolution, now you have a 6hr battle at 1/2 speed instead of a 3hr battle.
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:39:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Rainus Max
Originally by: Shaera Taam
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: Razzor Death That is a very interesting thought tbh, double the cycle times but double the damage.
I think its double the cycle time and have the same damage per cycle, but also double the cycle time on all forms of repping, including passive regen.
i would *hope* that such balancing factors would be implemented... perhaps while time dilates and damage increases to match, passive regen and logi rep effects would also increase so they "look" like they are happening at RT speed?
otherwise large fleet fights would simply turn into wtfbbqpwnfests!
/me is not a coder or game dev... shrugs at possible fullacrapness...
Completely counters the point of speeding up the battle resolution, now you have a 6hr battle at 1/2 speed instead of a 3hr battle.
the idea of time dilation is to make sure everyone-in-fleet's actions are logged and implemented on the server, not speed up battle resolution. that's simply something that would be needed IRL to keep 3hr battles from turning into 6hr battles.
the issues must be handled together, yes, but they're not the same thing.
and it doesnt seem right that time dilation merely means that everyone's ships are suddenly that much less defensible. that's what a dilation damage increase (without defense/rep buff) would mean, right?
/me is not being sarcastic or intentionally-difficult... really wanna know! __________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:09:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Shaera Taam the idea of time dilation is to make sure everyone-in-fleet's actions are logged and implemented on the server, not speed up battle resolution. that's simply something that would be needed IRL to keep 3hr battles from turning into 6hr battles.
the issues must be handled together, yes, but they're not the same thing.
and it doesnt seem right that time dilation merely means that everyone's ships are suddenly that much less defensible. that's what a dilation damage increase (without defense/rep buff) would mean, right?
/me is not being sarcastic or intentionally-difficult... really wanna know!
Heavily depends on how CCP plan to implement the dilation, I'm assuming that they simply double the cycle timers on things (probably not what CCP will do in the end). With the server 'happy' the problem is you now need to speed the battle up for the player resolving the battle quicker would be a good start point. Doubling the damage output isnt idea but its a fairly good start in my opinion at speeding it up, increasing damage resistance (IE reps etc) in my mind only servers to keep the target alive longer and thus extend the battle.
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:42:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Lord Zim on 12/04/2011 21:42:51 I see absolutely no reason why damage should be doubled if the time dilation halves the speed at which you progress, that would just open up a can of worms wrt balancing again.
I'm assuming that the major thing that'll happen is that ticks in the physics engine are increased in real time length, or something like that.
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Ming Sying
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:55:00 -
[264]
Edited by: Ming Sying on 12/04/2011 21:56:10
Originally by: Lord Zim Edited by: Lord Zim on 12/04/2011 21:42:51 I see absolutely no reason why damage should be doubled if the time dilation halves the speed at which you progress, that would just open up a can of worms wrt balancing again.
I'm assuming that the major thing that'll happen is that ticks in the physics engine are increased in real time length, or something like that.
This is a simple and elegant solution. I'm tired of the theorycrafting. We don't need CCP to break anything else. I'd rather they just implement this and then continue throwing money and hardware at the lag or develop a new game engine.
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Spitfork
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:58:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Rainus Max Completely counters the point of speeding up the battle resolution, now you have a 6hr battle at 1/2 speed instead of a 3hr battle.
That laggy fleet fight will take the whole 6 hours without TD anyway. Because what should take 3 hours, because of module lag, guns not cycling, whatever slows things down anyway. Haven't you been in a lagfest? I'd bet, that the battle might draw to an end *faster* because the game would (hypothetically) work the way it's meant to. It's easier to kill stuff with half the rof, but knowing, that when you do press f1, the guns WILL fire, instead of jamming, locking, cap never ending and you flying off on mwd in a random direction.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.12 22:43:00 -
[266]
I'm most curious how you will be injected back into regular time. I mean once slowed down, you will soon fall behind the rest of the galaxy, then what? I mean, say for example you ended up 4 hours behind the rest of EVE during a fight, would you just skip forward 4 hours upon leaving the system?
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:15:00 -
[267]
Originally by: LordElfa I'm most curious how you will be injected back into regular time. I mean once slowed down, you will soon fall behind the rest of the galaxy, then what? I mean, say for example you ended up 4 hours behind the rest of EVE during a fight, would you just skip forward 4 hours upon leaving the system?
I do not think there is anything that needs to be skipped ahead. Your training would still go at normal speed, as would you industry jobs, the timers on market orders, and so on. It would only be flying about shooting stuff that is slowed. As soon as you jump out of the node that is under TD, you start moving and shooting normally again.
Reinforcement timers are an issue. Whats the consensus? Should they be slowed in a system that is under TD? Or run at real time?
Another observation: Right now a 800 ship fight progresses (on a reinforced node) acceptably, say can be completed in an hour. Double it to 1600 and it turns into a 6 hour lag-fest. With TD it would be a 2 to 3 hour slow motion fight. TD might actually speed up fights over what happens now.
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Shaera Taam
Minmatar Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:17:00 -
[268]
Originally by: LordElfa I'm most curious how you will be injected back into regular time. I mean once slowed down, you will soon fall behind the rest of the galaxy, then what? I mean, say for example you ended up 4 hours behind the rest of EVE during a fight, would you just skip forward 4 hours upon leaving the system?
pretty much the only way i could see it happening, tbh...
heh, as long as we dont lose 4 hours of skill points id be okay with it!
__________________________________________________ Gravity: It's not just a good idea, it's the law!" --Adam Savage, Mythbusters |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:27:00 -
[269]
Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.
LetÆs just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!
CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I canÆt wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 will had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Spooks'em
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:06:00 -
[270]
Originally by: CCP Veritas
I mean, it's not like you're going to be able to toss 3000 people in a system and have things running hunky dorry just because of time dilation. It's going to be slow, but it's also going to be more fair, more predictable, and have the game mechanics intact. I think that's a solid improvement.
Absolutely, it will be great a improvement, which is why I praised it as I did! It is a technical and game mechanics change that helps deal with the reality of the scale demanded by Eve.
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Does it solve lag forever and ever? Nope. Nothing short of putting hard limits on how many players can participate in a fight will. I don't see us doing that any time soon, so the war against lag goes on~
From a strictly technical standpoint, there can never be a true permanent fix to lag short of hard limits as you and others have pointed out. However, I know there are ways of implementing game mechanics to limit the benefits of bringing more people-under certain situations-than the server can handle, and that would be a fix.
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Lots of People Stuff about CSM effectiveness
I can only really speak for myself, but I found some of the CSM5 delegates to be a fantastic resource when it came to finding out how, exactly, lag effects the players. I'm not particularly into the 0.0 game, so that window into the player experience has been of great value to me. It has allowed me to identify problems that didn't appear to be nasty from a purely technical standpoint, but were a major barrier to the player experience. I'm hoping to build upon that relationship with CSM6 - so far so good.
Anyways, I'll cook up a devblog about this all in the near future.
I look forward to it. |
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Ming Sying
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:50:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 00:51:16 Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.
LetÆs just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!
CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I canÆt wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.
You mean CSM doesn't have any input on selecting planned features?
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Marshallin Santerese
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Posted - 2011.04.13 12:30:00 -
[272]
Can I ask some stupid newbie questions?
If a system goes into time dilation (and I'm assuming it's system-wide), will ships still be able to jump in? If so, how will people utilise the mechanic to their advantage?
If they can't then jump in, until the system isn't in time dilation, how will that be used? If a system seals, then is there a danger that someone could force time dilation in surrounding systems, trapping people in the original system?
Genuine questions: I have only second-hand understanding of nullsec fleet battles.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.04.13 12:39:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Ming Sying
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 00:51:16 Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.
LetÆs just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!
CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I canÆt wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.
You mean CSM doesn't have any input on selecting planned features?
CSM is clearly ôselectingö already planned features. They are selecting already planned features that they want to claim credit for.
Now they just need to do the converse. CCP needs to pull ôCCP scapegoatö from the mail room for the next summit. That way he can mention in front of the csm that perhaps they should make it so falcons can fit and use a dooms day. That way our brave CSM could take a big valiant stand against this and all the players can give thanks and praise to them for preventing this.
CCP should be thrilled about this new csm. That annoying csm 5 held them accountable and even quantified their failure to address anything the players wanted. This csm is basically saying û lets just do away with that assembly hall business and the players views altogether.
LetÆs also have meetings over skype instead of any formal minutes. That way no one will be accountable for the positions they take. If CCP says they are not going to work on anything the players want for another year or 2 that wonÆt be clear in any official document. It will be shrouded ôhe said she saidö arguments.
IÆm sure CCP is quite happy about this csm. They seem to completely uninterested in pushing for anything the players said they wanted. All the pressure that CSM 5 built to get them to listen to the players is now released. And the methods of interaction chosen means they will never be accountable for what they say.
CSM is happy too. They become more popular by just claiming credit for what CCP was already working on. By becoming more popular they can garner their bigger blobs for their null sec blob warfare. Plus there is a free trip to Iceland and maybe some free beer in there. What is not to like.
There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ming Sying
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.13 14:41:00 -
[274]
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:42:58 Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
Originally by: Cearain
There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?
I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. But I'm more interested in this whole CSM thing, it sounds like they are a bunch of space fascists trying to take over the system. I think the time dilation feature is a good thing, but if they are suppressing even better ideas and features I want to know.
What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?
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Kitty Vintner
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Posted - 2011.04.13 15:07:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Ming Sying Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:42:58 I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. But I'm more interested in this whole CSM thing, it sounds like they are a bunch of space fascists trying to take over the system. I think the time dilation feature is a good thing, but if they are suppressing even better ideas and features I want to know.
What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?
Three things: 1) Space communists, and B) They've already taken over. Third, ideas aren't being suppressed, it's just they can't put the spotlight on several issues at the same time. If you've ever been in a fleet where people started shooting the secondary before the primary you know how well anything will get done if they start +repping everything willy-nilly. Yes, that means they're not going to be able to promote every good idea from the assembly during their terms but what they promote they've actually got a good chance of getting, which is a step up.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.04.13 18:40:00 -
[276]
14:42:58 Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
Originally by: Cearain
There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?
I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. à
I think you are describing the features and ideas forum.
This is the description CCP gave to the assembly hall forum:
ôAssembly Hall A platform for players to bring topics to the attention of the Council of Stellar Management.ö
CSM now informs us that is broken and perhaps even a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?
If that is csm's position lets just tell the players that argued for all the issues that ended up in the backlog something like ôOh yeah sorry you wasted your time. Nobody really cares for your attempt to try to be a developer. From here on out, we are going to do things differently. We are just going go to icleland drink beer, talk with ccp, have no records of what was said, and claim credit for things ccp already intends to do.ö
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42 What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?
Well perhaps the things that the players actually asked the csm to raise with ccp? Personally, I donÆt even care about many of the issues in the backlog. But it at least has some connection to the actual player base.
As far as the csm fireside chats/pep rallies, I couldnÆt care less. How are players better able to communicate their ideas through a mumble channel with potentially 100s of people on the same channel, than they can through forum posts that are separated by threads and can be discussed in an organized, logical way? When you have 350,000 accounts do you really think your going to be able to gauge anything useful about the playerbase from this?
Come on CSM, the campaign is over. You won you donÆt need to keep campaigning with meaningless townhall meetings. If you want to get any sort of useful information read the Assembly hall threads where players can give their input in an organized way regardless of their timezone and schedule.
Of course if you really donÆt care to get good ideas from players for the game and you just want to keep increasing your own personal popularity à..well then keep campaigning, and fireside chats sound great.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.04.13 18:43:00 -
[277]
Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 18:44:55
Originally by: Ming Sying Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:42:58 Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
Originally by: Cearain
There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?
I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. But IÆm much more interested in this whole csm thingà
I think you are describing the features and ideas forum.
This is the description CCP gave to the assembly hall forum:
ôAssembly Hall A platform for players to bring topics to the attention of the Council of Stellar Management.ö
CSM now informs us that is broken and a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?
If that is csms position lets just tell the players that argued for all the issues that ended up in the backlog something like ôOh yeah sorry you wasted your time. Nobody really cares for your attempt to try to be a developer. From here on out, we are going to do things differently. We are just going go to icleland drink beer, talk with ccp, have no records of what was said, and claim credit for things ccp already intends to do.ö
Originally by: Ming Sying Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42 What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?
Well perhaps the things that the players actually asked the csm to raise with ccp? I donÆt even care about many of the issues in the backlog. But it at least has some connection to the actual player base.
As far as the csm fireside chats/pep rallies, I couldnÆt care less. How are players better able to communicate their ideas through a mumble channel with potentially 100s of people on the same channel, than they can through forum posts that are separated by threads and can be discussed in an organized, logical way? When you have 350,000 accounts do you really think your going to be able to gauge anything useful about the playerbase from this?
Come on CSM, the campaign is over. You won you donÆt need to keep campaigning with meaningless townhall meetings. If you want to get any sort of useful information read the Assembly hall threads where players can give their input in an organized way regardless of their timezone and schedule.
Of course if you really donÆt care to get good ideas from players for the game and you just want to keep increasing your own personal popularity à..well then keep campaigning, and fireside chats sound great.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:14:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Cearain CSM now informs us that is broken and a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?
I believe you are stretching things unreasonably.
Anyone who ever believed that AH proposals passed by the CSM (and accepted by CCP) were guaranteed to get implemented was kidding themselves. But by the same token, anyone who believes that they are a useless waste of time is also kidding themselves.
Here's the way I see it: well-crafted AH proposals that make it into the backlog are a resource that CCP and CSM can go to when making resource allocation decisions. The prioritization concept that CSM5 innovated was a way of making it easier to use that resource, and the spotlighting that CSM6 is experimenting with is a way of bringing CCP-originated ideas out to the players for discussion, and if they are supported, feeding that support back in to influence the prioritization decisions.
Time-dilation is obvious low-hanging fruit, and not very controversial, but it's just the first test. If spotlighting turns out to be as useful as prioritization was, then we'd obviously want to expand it to more controversial topics.
Over time, less AH proposals will probably get passed by CSM. But this mostly reflects the fact that most of the big issues are in the backlog already, and IIRC CSM5 passed fewer proposals than CSM4. But good AH proposals are going to make it in, and the discussions there (even in things that are not formally raised) do have an influence.
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LordElfa
Tri Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:46:00 -
[279]
Well Trebor, while I'm all for the adoption of Time-Dilation, large fleet lag only affects a small portion of the player base who actually engage in said giant ass battles.
Fixing Hybrids and Gallente on the other hand affects a far larger percentage of capsuleers, even overlapping with those affected by big ol' fleet fight lag.
Now while I would prefer that Gallente and Hybrids were tackled first, I'd be happy if CSM6 at least attempted to tackle the problem after they get the Time-Dilation thing under control.
òòòòòòò CSM6-Hated by fools for who they are; Loved by the knowledgeable for what they will do. |
Pherick Sjang
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:47:00 -
[280]
A lot of people seem to want to unnecessarily complicate TD. There's no reason to keep people from entering a TD'd system, new arrivals would simply be subjected to it when they arrive and the effect lifted when they leave. Training and research and market jkbs would continue uninterrupted. The only two sticking points are reinforcement timers and cynos. A ship firing off a cyno would normally be stuck for ten minutes, but under 2x dilation, should they be stuck for twice as long? Well that gives people outside the system twice as long to jump in. But if they're still only stuck for 10 minutes, people in the TD'd system effectively have half as much time to kill them.
I don't forsee a particularly big increase in fleet op lengths though. As was said earlier, instead of being trapped in lag until you give up or the node crashes, things will still be happening, just slower than if it were only a handfull of people fighting. And really, the longest, boringest part is waiting and traveling, which shouldn't be effected if TD is based on server load (as it should be) rather than just pure number of ships.
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Kaltooth
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.13 20:56:00 -
[281]
Originally by: LordElfa Well Trebor, while I'm all for the adoption of Time-Dilation, large fleet lag only affects a small portion of the player base who actually engage in said giant ass battles.
Fixing Hybrids and Gallente on the other hand affects a far larger percentage of capsuleers, even overlapping with those affected by big ol' fleet fight lag.
Now while I would prefer that Gallente and Hybrids were tackled first, I'd be happy if CSM6 at least attempted to tackle the problem after they get the Time-Dilation thing under control.
I don't know if it was here or elsewhere, but I've seen mention in passing (don't mean they'll push for it this term) on the idea of a dedicated balance person/team akin to bff.
Time Dilation does affect everyone though. It means media exposure when 4000 vs 4000 people battles take place without the server melting. Media time means curiosity which means new players. New players means a growth in demand for your products and services. Larger and larger fleet fights also means the potential for more ships to explode increasing demand for replacements. While we all agree null has very low pop compared to high sec, they all feed on each other. Politically, the two are independant of each other and could care less. Economically, they are joined at the hip relying on each other.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:19:00 -
[282]
Originally by: LordElfa Fixing Hybrids and Gallente on the other hand affects a far larger percentage of capsuleers, even overlapping with those affected by big ol' fleet fight lag.
Now while I would prefer that Gallente and Hybrids were tackled first, I'd be happy if CSM6 at least attempted to tackle the problem after they get the Time-Dilation thing under control.
Stuff like this is obviously on our radar, it's just a matter of prioritization. Dedicated resources allocated for continuous rebalancing ranks high on our list.
I personally think that the success of Team BFF and The Thousand Papercuts project should be joined by an assault on the "Dozen Spurting Wounds" -- stuff like Lowsec, FW, Sov mechanics, better missions, the POS dead horse, etc.
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VC General
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:55:00 -
[283]
I don't think fleet lag affects a small number of players. It's more along the lines of many players don't participate in fleet battles because it is a random lagfest that isn't any fun once you hit the point where the system breaks. I'd start playing Eve religiously again, and go join a blob alliance right now if it was actually fun to participate in that phase of the game.
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DaiTengu
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 03:26:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Rainus Max Time dialation makes sense to counter the problems but CCP you need to make sure it doesnt extend the lenght of battles.
3/4/5 hr battles are a pain especially if you work or have school etc, if all you do is double the times your still *in theory* risking increasing battle lengths to 6-10 hrs and not sure about most people but I know even on a weekend when I have nothing else to do I'm slightly against devoting the entire day to fighting.
Id suggest increasing damage output of guns etc to counter the increase in wait. IE double the cycle time, double the damage per shot.
My suggestion but im not a game developer (or a massive PvPer TBH), so its probably full of carp.
Doubling damage isn't an option, you'd then need to make sure ships moved twice as fast, signature radii would need to be reduced, and all the dynamic things that affect the damage you receive would need to be recalculated and changed as well (things that are usually static)
A cruiser could shoot at a frigate, and land 3, 4, or 5 shots on it before the frigate dies. However what you're proposing, in severe time dilation, that same cruiser would target a frigate and destroy it with one shot.
The goal of time dilation is to make things more fair, not less fair.
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Peralandra
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Posted - 2011.04.14 06:33:00 -
[285]
Not supported.
I'm sorry but this seems nothing more than a group of ALLIED players pushing an agenda that will benefit their preferred play style. I'm not alone in saying that many 0.0 dwellers would like to take a step back from "blob warfare" and any manipulation to the game that encourages players to ally with everyone in order to win by sheer numbers alone. This method for controlling resources is detrimental to the game and creates an overall duller and more uninteresting dynamic to zero security space.
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 07:25:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Peralandra Not supported.
I'm sorry but this seems nothing more than a group of ALLIED players pushing an agenda that will benefit their preferred play style. I'm not alone in saying that many 0.0 dwellers would like to take a step back from "blob warfare" and any manipulation to the game that encourages players to ally with everyone in order to win by sheer numbers alone. This method for controlling resources is detrimental to the game and creates an overall duller and more uninteresting dynamic to zero security space.
I'm sorry that you think this is something we'd like to see just because it'll "benefit [our] preferred play style", as the only thing this should change is how the server reacts to heavy load. Instead of just throwing random people off/ignoring them, it should slow down the players so that a large fight like what is happening between the NC and DRF in geminate is determined by who fights best, not by who has the most people actually able to fight because the server has forgotten about more pilots on the other side.
But, pray tell, what method of controlling resources would be more beneficial to the game?
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Qoi
Exert Force
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Posted - 2011.04.14 09:32:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Marshallin Santerese Can I ask some stupid newbie questions?
If a system goes into time dilation (and I'm assuming it's system-wide), will ships still be able to jump in? If so, how will people utilise the mechanic to their advantage?
Yes they will be able to enter the system, or you could just put 2000 Trial Alts in Rifters in a system to protect it from all attacks.
You could utilize it to your advantage because the physics simulation and the combat system would run slower in the loaded system, but at normal speeds elsewhere. So Reinforcement Fleets would arrive at normal speed to a slow battlefield, or from the point of view of the people already in the system - relatively faster. This is highly hypothetical tho, as fleetfights that have serious impact on the local time dilation would have pushed the server beyond its limits before the implementation of time dilation, making combat "slow" anyway.
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Lusulpher
Sinister Elite
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:11:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ming Sying
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 00:51:16 Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.
LetÆs just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!
CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I canÆt wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.
You mean CSM doesn't have any input on selecting planned features?
CSM is clearly ôselectingö already planned features. They are selecting already planned features that they want to claim credit for.
Now they just need to do the converse. CCP needs to pull ôCCP scapegoatö from the mail room for the next summit. That way he can mention in front of the csm that perhaps they should make it so falcons can fit and use a dooms day. That way our brave CSM could take a big valiant stand against this and all the players can give thanks and praise to them for preventing this.
CCP should be thrilled about this new csm. That annoying csm 5 held them accountable and even quantified their failure to address anything the players wanted. This csm is basically saying û lets just do away with that assembly hall business and the players views altogether.
LetÆs also have meetings over skype instead of any formal minutes. That way no one will be accountable for the positions they take. If CCP says they are not going to work on anything the players want for another year or 2 that wonÆt be clear in any official document. It will be shrouded ôhe said she saidö arguments.
IÆm sure CCP is quite happy about this csm. They seem to completely uninterested in pushing for anything the players said they wanted. All the pressure that CSM 5 built to get them to listen to the players is now released. And the methods of interaction chosen means they will never be accountable for what they say.
CSM is happy too. They become more popular by just claiming credit for what CCP was already working on. By becoming more popular they can garner their bigger blobs for their null sec blob warfare. Plus there is a free trip to Iceland and maybe some free beer in there. What is not to like.
There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?
Pretty much. Skipped to last page after I saw a pile of Goons quoting their own broken arguments as valid questioning/observation. I am aware they are trying to inflate the priority of LAG WARFARE as CCP might be watching, and then not losing anymore Titans/Moms to LAG also improves their power projection...conflict of interest, much?
Also as someone who monitors UI changes on Assembly Hall, I can guarantee you that Drone UI does not take 2 Devs or a year to improve. But CCP has drones rebelling EVERY PATCH, and they attack triggers in missions! And yet, I have to ask for the healthbars to be reversed...
If CCP can't dedicate a UI Dev to fix an easy corner that 75% of EvE uses daily, we need an absolutely vicious CSM.
I thought people were being bitter about cyno and engine trails. They are bitter at time being wasted, not pursuing low-hanging fruit. This CSM is showing signs of holdign their lemonade and fanning them in the harvest heat, on the porch. Creative Customer Person 7 |
Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:46:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Qoi Yes they will be able to enter the system, or you could just put 2000 Trial Alts in Rifters in a system to protect it from all attacks.
I think you'll find that utilizing 50-100 SCs all attacking something will do a lot more for sucking up CPU resources than just flying around with a few thousand rifters.
I wouldn't mind seeing what a 2000 strong rifter fleet could take down, however.
Originally by: Lusulpher Pretty much. Skipped to last page after I saw a pile of Goons quoting their own broken arguments as valid questioning/observation. I am aware they are trying to inflate the priority of LAG WARFARE as CCP might be watching, and then not losing anymore Titans/Moms to LAG also improves their power projection...conflict of interest, much?
Yes, yes, it's all a goon-lead conspiracy to save our titans and supercarrier. It wouldn't have lead to a lot of good fights between the NC/DRF in geminate, and it certainly won't have knock-on effects like making things like using bombers a valid tactic again. Nope. It's only to save our titans and supercarriers.
Go back to failheap with your conspiracy theories.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:57:00 -
[290]
Time dilation? Really?
So, CSM6 is, in effect, throwing away all the hard work and progress of all the CSMs before them, dropping support for concepts and ideas that have been proposed, supported and asked for by the player base for many, many years to chase after some brand new feature just mentioned at Fanfest???
CSM6 is a) doing exactly what CCP wants them to do and b) clearly more concerned about fleet fight lag than any of the dozens of other, previously supported, initiatives by CSM5.
WTF? Who elected a bunch of f'ing goons to CSM anyway? :P
Seriously, I'm not impressed. Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much. Time dilation would be cool, however, frankly, there are dozens of other, widely supported by the player base, initiatives CSM didn't even touch on or comment on in their 'note' to the playerbase.
CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.
Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:27:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Consortium Agent Seriously, I'm not impressed. Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much.
Citation needed on the "core development time" figure.
As to "nae improved much", it's only gone from something which didn't work at all (and affected people in empire as well) to allowing 500+ fights in systems with nary a problem (albeit lag if supers are involved), and 1000+ with lag. Nae improved at all, nope.
Originally by: Consortium Agent CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.
I, too, make assumptions on what someone will do for a full year based upon their first few days of work.
Originally by: Consortium Agent Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!
You know where to find us.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.14 13:00:00 -
[292]
The real question is... why even dilate time at all ? All that's REALLY needed is a reduction in server tick frequency.
You already have stuff that does not take an integer number of seconds to accomplish, and I HOPE we can assume that if you have, say, a 5.98 seconds RoF that's noticeably worse than 5.51 seconds RoF for DPS purposes, for instance.
Yes, the system will become slightly less responsive, but that sidesteps A LOT of the problems which would be associated with actually altering the flow of time. You know, things like how do you deal with reinforcement timers, the fact that you make it easier for reinforcements to arrive, how do you handle cynos which have an effect outside the solar system and so on and so forth.
Simply altering the sampling size from the current 1 second to X seconds SHOULD be enough, and also easier to code (wherever you have any calculation that involves time, instead of using "1 second", use "X seconds" instead).
Heck, that could go the other way around too. You could set "X" at 0.5, for instance, for nodes with very light loads, and people would get a much more responsive system.
_
CCP LEADERSHIP MENTALITY NEEDS TO CHANGE FAST ! "New junky features sell, old polished content doesn't" ? KILL IT WITH FIRE. |
SecretMoonBase
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Posted - 2011.04.14 13:54:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Consortium Agent Time dilation? Really?
So, CSM6 is, in effect, throwing away all the hard work and progress of all the CSMs before them, dropping support for concepts and ideas that have been proposed, supported and asked for by the player base for many, many years to chase after some brand new feature just mentioned at Fanfest???
What hard work and progress are you referring to?
Quote:
CSM6 is a) doing exactly what CCP wants them to do and b) clearly more concerned about fleet fight lag than any of the dozens of other, previously supported, initiatives by CSM5.
How did you come to this conclusion?
Quote:
WTF? Who elected a bunch of f'ing goons to CSM anyway? :P
The playerbase did.
Quote:
Seriously, I'm not impressed.
I'm sure The Mittani is heartbroken.
Quote: Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much. Time dilation would be cool, however, frankly, there are dozens of other, widely supported by the player base, initiatives CSM didn't even touch on or comment on in their 'note' to the playerbase.
Translation: Fleet lag is a serious problem and I'm glad it's being discussed but why are they only discussing that in their first 'note' im a big babby i want them to talk about other things too!
Quote:
CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.
I don't see any of your ideas, just a dumb meme (EQUALS FAIL DURRRRHURRRRR) and a whole lot of whining. I suppose empty cans really do rattle the loudest.
Quote:
Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!
We live in Deklein, in the VFK system. Come and get us tough guy
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DaiTengu
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 14:11:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Lusulpher
Pretty much. Skipped to last page after I saw a pile of Goons quoting their own broken arguments as valid questioning/observation. I am aware they are trying to inflate the priority of LAG WARFARE as CCP might be watching, and then not losing anymore Titans/Moms to LAG also improves their power projection...conflict of interest, much?
Well, I'm sure you'll skip over this because DURRR HURR GOONSWARM REPLY, but I'll make an effort anyway.
Almost all of the Titans & supercarriers we've lost in the past year have not been in laggy fights, but due to stupidity because goons are dumb. They've all been ganked by small fleets in unlagged systems, or, in my case, jumping ******edly into large, unlagged systems to try and ninja a carrier kill :hurr:
Originally by: Lusulpher Also as someone who monitors UI changes on Assembly Hall, I can guarantee you that Drone UI does not take 2 Devs or a year to improve. But CCP has drones rebelling EVERY PATCH, and they attack triggers in missions! And yet, I have to ask for the healthbars to be reversed...
If CCP can't dedicate a UI Dev to fix an easy corner that 75% of EvE uses daily, we need an absolutely vicious CSM.
I thought people were being bitter about cyno and engine trails. They are bitter at time being wasted, not pursuing low-hanging fruit. This CSM is showing signs of holdign their lemonade and fanning them in the harvest heat, on the porch.
Look, the CSM has been in office... what, a week and a half? They found something they all immediately could rally around, and decided to run with it. There's plenty of other things on the docket and I'm sure they'll talk about it more on Saturday.
step back for a minute and take a look, set your in-game anger aside (we know that ebil goonie touched you in the bad place) for a few minutes and take the time to read this entire thread. Plenty of members of the CSM have commented on what they want to see out of CSM6, so don't dismiss them off-handedly.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.04.14 15:31:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Cearain CSM now informs us that is broken and a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?
I believe you are stretching things unreasonably.
Time will tell. We shall see what efforts CSM6 makes to push the assembly hall ideas. Lets see how many get voted on in CSM6.
Based on this letter from csm 6 it appears the focus will be on claiming credit for doing nothing more than finding things ccp is already working on.
I also think we will see some red herrings as well. They will go along these lines: ôSomeone at ccp said something that could be interpreted to mean they intend to _______(fill in bad or otherwise upsetting proposal, remove jump bridges, give flacons a dooms day, whatever) We at CSM are rallying against this and protecting the players by using our high powered political influence to prevent that horrible idea from happening. And as you can see this idea was not implemented so we are successful.ö
CCP could of course have done a dev blog on this time dilation themselves. They could have gotten feedback from players that way. But why not also pull csm into it? That way they kill 2 birds with one stone. Yay ccp for working on lag and Yay ccp for giving us this wonderful csm to represent us. I predict there will be more of this. Instead of just posting dev blogs about what they are doing maybe they can check with csm and see if csm wants to tag along on this or that idea and therefore get credit for ôspotlighting it.ö
In other words CSM is truly heading in the direction of being nothing more than self-promotion for those individuals on it, and PR for ccp. The players and their ideas really wonÆt enter this equation.
I hope IÆm wrong but time will tell.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Mr Cleann
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.14 18:39:00 -
[296]
The CSM has great potential. But despite the fact that CCP does not have to follow through with what the CSM has to say, or at least give it serious consideration, then what is the point of having a CSM. For the moment it all looks to be a giant waste of time for all involved. Be the kind of man that when your feet hit the floor each morning, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up!"
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.04.14 22:33:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: Consortium Agent CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.
I, too, make assumptions on what someone will do for a full year based upon their first few days of work.
Really? That's horrid. I make assumptions on the information presented by the CSM to the player base. Can't help it if 'spotlighting' a single issue which, by all accounts benefits the members of the CSM more than it does the majority of the player base, causing folks to raise an eyebrow and call you on your sh*t.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.04.14 22:38:00 -
[298]
Edited by: Consortium Agent on 14/04/2011 22:39:32
Originally by: SecretMoonBase
Quote: Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much. Time dilation would be cool, however, frankly, there are dozens of other, widely supported by the player base, initiatives CSM didn't even touch on or comment on in their 'note' to the playerbase.
Translation: Fleet lag is a serious problem and I'm glad it's being discussed but why are they only discussing that in their first 'note' im a big babby i want them to talk about other things too!
Translation: CSM6 epic failed to deliver a concise message to the player base and chose, instead, to try this 'spotlighting' thing, choosing something the CSM5 *already pushed through and made clear to CCP* - in other words... you're doing zip, zero, nada except riding the coat tails of CCP and the progress made with CSM5. I call it like I see it. That's how I see it.
Originally by: SecretMoonBase
Quote:
Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!
We live in Deklein, in the VFK system. Come and get us tough guy
You don't have to tell me where you live, noob. I already know. And if I didn't, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
And my, how easy it is to shake up the goons with a few words roflmao. Easy, way too f'ing easy. :P I might actually enjoy watching you tards sign your own death warrant. Doh!
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.04.14 23:23:00 -
[299]
Hmmm... since the CSM believes it is like a governing body, ought we not have an impeachment process in case something like, I dunno, the goons taking over CSM happens and we need to take action against their single minded agenda?
CCP? Comments, please.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.14 23:59:00 -
[300]
Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud on 15/04/2011 00:03:03 __________________________________________________________________
ahh so this is the forum thread i should have been posting on after all this time! :)
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CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
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Phsyco Bob
Caldari Moon Humpers Growth Disorders
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Posted - 2011.04.15 00:06:00 -
[301]
First one to make a post time dialation pvp vid. to the time warp gets a prize.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.15 00:16:00 -
[302]
i really wanted to ask something specifically to CCP Veritas tbh.. and it was something i had proposed in the original AH Forum, as i know he hates clients that unnecessarily rack up his servers with a ton of requests.
ripped from the original AH post...
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
if anything Bosse could write an automatic program that can hunt down clients sending massive amounts of requests compared to a normal amount for a particular ship (as SC's will be putting out more requests to the server from fighters etc than an ecm BS for example.) what bosse wants to do with these people is up to him and CCP, but forcing a client DC with a re-logging cooldown timer i dont think would be that harsh bearing in mind what that person is trying to do.
I'd loooove to know if this is possible... as im sure you can group server requests by ip address and watch over them to look for excessive levels. CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
DaiTengu
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.15 03:36:00 -
[303]
Edited by: DaiTengu on 15/04/2011 03:38:59
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud i really wanted to ask something specifically to CCP Veritas tbh.. and it was something i had proposed in the original AH Forum, as i know he hates clients that unnecessarily rack up his servers with a ton of requests.
ripped from the original AH post...
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
if anything Bosse could write an automatic program that can hunt down clients sending massive amounts of requests compared to a normal amount for a particular ship (as SC's will be putting out more requests to the server from fighters etc than an ecm BS for example.) what bosse wants to do with these people is up to him and CCP, but forcing a client DC with a re-logging cooldown timer i dont think would be that harsh bearing in mind what that person is trying to do.
I'd loooove to know if this is possible... as im sure you can group server requests by ip address and watch over them to look for excessive levels.
Wait, what? you want clients that cause more lag such as carriers and supercarriers to disconnect? how is that even remotely fair?
Edit: oh, I see. a script that would force clients to disconnect if they were doing more things than a ship like that was supposed to.
Thing like that is it's really hard to judge. If a Supercarrier engages drones, primary is suddenly switched, then it engages drones again, except on the original target, then eventually on the new primary, and then fires off an ECM burst, that could be considered "excessive" even though it was just a mistake on the pilot's part.
Sounds like it would be a ton of work for very little gain. Besides, the script would have to run on the server, adding to system load.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:01:00 -
[304]
completely understand your criticism on this, and tbh id expect it and encourage it!
when i say excessive i really do mean excessive, for example for a supercarrier pilot swapping their drones targetted aggro between 5 or more targets cyclicly, or recalling and then re-aggroing drones, but doing this constantly and in quick succession, purely to send a ton of requests to the server in order to push the server over.
i guarantee this will become the tactic to push time dialation levels up as much as possible, in order to give caps more life expectancy in fights (barring alpha strikes ofc). and with all nav, combat and module speeds reduced it'll become exceedingly obvious who's trying to legitimately play the game and who's forcibly trying to push the server over.
yes it would chew up cpu time, but in that sense time dialation can be used to add some headroom for this to work. you can test this with thin clients to quickly work out what would be acceptable, what level may constitute a warning and what level and for what duration a forcable DC and cooldown should occur.
im not trying to annoy and screw up epic battles, i really feel a proactive measure to curb metagaming that circumvents game-mechanics should be considered. and this way its not a nerf all button but targetted to the ones that cause the most issues. CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.15 12:53:00 -
[305]
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud when i say excessive i really do mean excessive, for example for a supercarrier pilot swapping their drones targetted aggro between 5 or more targets cyclicly, or recalling and then re-aggroing drones, but doing this constantly and in quick succession, purely to send a ton of requests to the server in order to push the server over.
Honestly I wouldn't expect the act of sending orders to his fighter bombers would be what's causing the servers to run out of CPU capacity, but the act that they're actually in use, firing missiles or whatever it is they do today.
I'm hesitant to consider any mechanic that actively disconnects anyone in what could be a very critical point of a fight.
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:26:00 -
[306]
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud I'd loooove to know if this is possible... as im sure you can group server requests by ip address and watch over them to look for excessive levels.
If it becomes a problem, yo, I'll solve it.
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mkint
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Posted - 2011.04.15 17:41:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud when i say excessive i really do mean excessive, for example for a supercarrier pilot swapping their drones targetted aggro between 5 or more targets cyclicly, or recalling and then re-aggroing drones, but doing this constantly and in quick succession, purely to send a ton of requests to the server in order to push the server over.
Honestly I wouldn't expect the act of sending orders to his fighter bombers would be what's causing the servers to run out of CPU capacity, but the act that they're actually in use, firing missiles or whatever it is they do today.
I'm hesitant to consider any mechanic that actively disconnects anyone in what could be a very critical point of a fight.
I actually like the idea. It assumes you have a small number of people actively trying to ruin the gameplay of thousands of people in a fight by manipulating the servers through non-gameplay in order to increase their own survivability. To punish/prevent what could be considered an exploit, forcing a dc and thus reducing their survivability to practically nil seems a compelling reason to not attempt to cheat. Even more compelling if they are trying to cheat at a critical point in a fight.
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SSN 609
Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.15 19:31:00 -
[308]
I actually don't mind TD, and I understand why people are thinking its just gonna get worse and worse by the amount of people that can potentially get to a system that is DT (so scales up and up because of RF fleets).
Perhaps TD should scale down surrounding systems as well depending on the amount of people in the target system.
Think of it like an earthquake... the epicenter is gonna be horrible, but it ripples out from source.
The only problem would by people jumping to system in capitals and using bridges to avoid this ripple effect, however, you could adjust the "wait to jump" time. Basically having a simple pop up that you already have when waiting to jump to next system, but have it optional. Saying something like, "Time to jump to system is 3 min would you like to proceed?"
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mkint
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:05:00 -
[309]
Edited by: mkint on 15/04/2011 20:06:16
Originally by: SSN 609 I actually don't mind TD, and I understand why people are thinking its just gonna get worse and worse by the amount of people that can potentially get to a system that is DT (so scales up and up because of RF fleets).
Perhaps TD should scale down surrounding systems as well depending on the amount of people in the target system.
Think of it like an earthquake... the epicenter is gonna be horrible, but it ripples out from source.
The only problem would by people jumping to system in capitals and using bridges to avoid this ripple effect, however, you could adjust the "wait to jump" time. Basically having a simple pop up that you already have when waiting to jump to next system, but have it optional. Saying something like, "Time to jump to system is 3 min would you like to proceed?"
I don't think the ripple effect is needed. An attempt to jump into a dilated system should bring up the "jumping" notice on the bottom of the screen with a countdown timer, and any new commands issued should interrupt the timer. Thus the players are required to decide to dilate their time voluntarily before even entering the system regardless the method they use to enter.
The real issue is if a cyno timer runs on dilated time (making it last longer and thus easier to kill) or on real time (giving normal window to position capitals to jump.) I'd say a compromise of the beacon itself running real time, but the module (with the penalties) running on dilated time.
Issues with sov and POS timers are probably trickier to deal with because they affect longer term strategy more than short term tactics.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:32:00 -
[310]
The way i see it working is everything that should be affected by time dialation to work of an augmented time calculation '(t/n)' where 'n' is a number between 0 and 1. 1 being normal non - TD time and 0 being a theoretical infinite (that u really do not want to reach!). The 'n' would correspond to a value that the server determins in respect to how well its responding to server requests, if theres a queue the number comes off 1 and moves towards 0, creating the time dialation.
This calculation would be the replacement for the normal 't' index representing the time variable in calculations for whatever eve related calculations u want augmented by TD.
You would then be free to use it on speed calcs, module cycle time calcs and the like. Keeping the original for POS timers, skill training etc... that would run at the standard eve speed.
I would have to say im not in any way an expert on this, but thats how i have it figured in my head. CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.15 22:14:00 -
[311]
Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud on 15/04/2011 22:15:23
Originally by: SSN 609
Perhaps TD should scale down surrounding systems as well depending on the amount of people in the target system.
Think of it like an earthquake... the epicenter is gonna be horrible, but it ripples out from source.
The only problem would by people jumping to system in capitals and using bridges to avoid this ripple effect, however, you could adjust the "wait to jump" time. Basically having a simple pop up that you already have when waiting to jump to next system, but have it optional. Saying something like, "Time to jump to system is 3 min would you like to proceed?"
im all for the ripple effect! though i do believe that if TD gets to a point it should auto-cynojam a system and possibly cut off gate jumping into it due to the massive sudden change in time dialation.
could say something like...
Quote: "Due to highly energetic and gravametric fluctuations, your jump drive targeting systems cannot acquire a lock to the target cynosaural field in XXXX-X system"
and
Quote: Emergency Jump Gate Lockdown Protocol - unable to jump into XXXX-X. Sudden changes in the gravametric conditions would Rip your hull apart. Jump sequence Aborted.
CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
Anela Cistine
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.16 09:43:00 -
[312]
Edited by: Anela Cistine on 16/04/2011 09:44:45
Originally by: Gnulpie I don't think people are frustrated because lag causes unfair conditions (lag doesn't, every random result evens out after a while, you win some, you lose some, nothing unfair about this)
Actually, there is something unfair about it.
The CVA roleplayer's paradise, NRDS rule of Providence was great, it added a lot of flavour to Eve. It was a place where the little guy could dip his toes in 0.0 without having absolutely everyone shooting at him. PVPers loved it, because it acted as a sort of "hunting preserve," a place where a small gang could go and always find a fight, and keep fighting until they eventually get killed, just for kicks. Being such a great place it got crowded, and eventually they tried to expand into Catch. This didn't go so well, but at first it looked like AAA only intended to deliver a spanking, not utterly destroy the Proviblob, because AAA enjoyed having a hunting preserve right next door.
Then the proviblob capfleet blackscreened. Blind, deaf and paralyzed they were unable to fight, unable to defend themselves, unable to even log out. This by itself would be terribly unfun, but being stuck in that state while your fleet is systematically slaughtered is terribly demoralizing. Doubly so when the news came out that people at CCP had been taking heroic measures to keep the server up, which naturally lead to speculation that a crash might have saved hundreds of blind ships and permitted a real battle to take place. Providence was never the richest region in the game, so many of those capital ships were not able to be replaced instantly as they would be for a richer alliance. Their capfleet was simply gone. Perhaps more important was the moral blow. Why bother trying to fight when a Russian blob arriving first means that you won't even get to load the system? For all those little guys getting their first taste of 0.0, the only sane thing to do was save what portable wealth they could and get out. I've never been affiliated with CVA, in fact I've never been to Providence at all, but I was sad to see it die that way. Yes, recently CVA has recaptured part of Providence, but it isn't quite what it was. What happened there was in no way fair.
By now most big alliances have been on both sides of a blackscreen at least once, and the thing is it isn't fun no matter which side you are on. Blackscreening is terrible. Being on the "lucky" side means mindlessly shooting at dead ships that react less than a POS, and warping around the system chasing sensor ghosts that may or may not be shootable ships, all the time wondering if your guns would actually fire when you find a valid target. But you do it, because that's what you are supposed to do if you get lucky. It isn't just boring because it is slow, it is objectively terrible in every way. It is not PVP.
Of course things have gotten better than they were when Dominion first came out, mad props to the guys working on that. Eliminating situations where hundreds of players are left unable to play, and unable to log out, has to be a priority. If time dilation can help, I'm all for it.
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Salpun
Gallente Paramount Commerce
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Posted - 2011.04.16 18:25:00 -
[313]
I am showing a pass word needed for the server for the fire side chat. When will it be open.
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SecretMoonBase
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Posted - 2011.04.16 18:33:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Consortium Agent Edited by: Consortium Agent on 14/04/2011 23:01:23
And my, how easy it is to shake up the goons with a few words roflmao. Easy, way too f'ing easy. :P I might actually enjoy watching you tards sign your own death warrant with this whole CSM thing. Doh!
I'm gay
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.04.17 23:23:00 -
[315]
CCP reacts to one thing and one thing only.
Bad publicity.
20 page thread on General Discussion = action.
500 page thread in CSM = lol we managed to hide our unhappy customers
They know that people check game forums before making purchases.
Top page of "General Discussion" is the only place where CCP takes action on problems.
CCP Nathan "the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells" Evelgrivion "each passing year, each failure to deliver on expectations of basic competence" |
Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2011.04.17 23:27:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Consortium Agent Hmmm... since the CSM believes it is like a governing body, ought we not have an impeachment process in case something like, I dunno, the goons taking over CSM happens and we need to take action against their single minded agenda?
CCP? Comments, please.
For this to be an issue CCP would have to think of CSM as something other than a joke.
CCP Nathan "the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells" Evelgrivion "each passing year, each failure to deliver on expectations of basic competence" |
Peralandra
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Posted - 2011.04.18 06:26:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Peralandra on 18/04/2011 06:27:33 oops wrong thread
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Ortan Murdak
Liberty Storm Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.04.21 10:43:00 -
[318]
Quote: Of course things have gotten better than they were when Dominion first came out, mad props to the guys working on that. Eliminating situations where hundreds of players are left unable to play, and unable to log out, has to be a priority. If time dilation can help, I'm all for it.
I would whole heartedly agree with you except for one issue that I see with TD. As a fix for lag,it will work great, but only temporarily. Up until now, the war on lag has been about making the code more efficient and less conducive to lag, but TD will simply hide the problem. The initiative we have seen so far to reduce lag will most likely disappear, and (in an extreme case) TD will become the end of the war on lag.
I think we should be careful to avoid becoming too comfortable with TD and focus on the ideal situation in which TD is a fail safe, and not the norm in large fleet fights.
A way to do this may be to monitor the levels of dilation and frequency of use. Say for example that each in game tick becomes two ticks. I think that is reasonable so long as it doesn't happen every time five hundred people get in a fleet fight. Every tick becoming even 1.1 ticks is a significant jump in processing time, so 2 should be unheard of. On the other extreme, making every tick x ticks ALL THE TIME should not be acceptable either, and TD should be the last option that is even considered to keep a node from dropping requests.
I'm gonna shut my mouth now before I ramble for any longer.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.22 16:45:00 -
[319]
thats totally understandable, although i do feel that if TD is implemented properly team gridlock would have some breathing room to work hard re-coding the server to utilise multicore. once thats achieved there will be a massive reduction in lag as currently everything on the server nodes are run on a single core, albeit hyperthreaded.
utilising multicore on the server will be like playing on 4 servers tied together... and with TD on that too im pretty sure u coould have the most epic of battles with only minimal lag! CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.04.29 11:29:00 -
[320]
Heh... all this talk about how CSM wants to hold CCP responsible for failed features and yet they're all about supporting this band-aid for lag. Isn't that counter-productive? Just sayin'. |
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Falin Whalen
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.02 17:19:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Consortium Agent Heh... all this talk about how CSM wants to hold CCP responsible for failed features and yet they're all about supporting this band-aid for lag. Isn't that counter-productive? Just sayin'.
Dude, you have DEVs saying, in this very thread, that it is only a bandaid to give them breathing room to fix the things that were not so easy to fix. At least now you will have the hampsters walking when they get tired, instead of running until they keel over and die.
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