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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:18:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm sorry, what is your point? We are discussing ways to make it such that it isn't terminally stupid to go look for a good fight in someone's space.
-Liang
My point is, that is how it should be. Honestly, who believes that a group of 20 buddies should be able to take on a huge group of organized, coordinated allies controlling an entire region or most of it?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: stargazer biatch You said it m8! I mean, what's the point of sinking all that ISK developing 0.0 if you can't make that space safe?
"sinking all that ISK developing 0.0" - as if it doesn't pay itself back with anomalies, complexes, rats, nulsec mining, moon goo ..
It's just very unrealistic that you can jump a whole fleet in from so many systems away. All the usual "border defense" tactics are turned largely irrelevant. Especially with artificial choke points as jump gates already in place it effectively makes nulsec a very static thing.
It's very un-space like. You can't put walls around space but that's basically where it comes down to.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:20:00 -
[33]
Well there no point in investing the isk to develop a system if there is no returns on it.
My Wallpaper |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: stargazer biatch You said it m8! I mean, what's the point of sinking all that ISK developing 0.0 if you can't make that space safe?
"sinking all that ISK developing 0.0" - as if it doesn't pay itself back with anomalies, complexes, rats, nulsec mining, moon goo ..
It's just very unrealistic that you can jump a whole fleet in from so many systems away. All the usual "border defense" tactics are turned largely irrelevant. Especially with artificial choke points as jump gates already in place it effectively makes nulsec a very static thing.
It's very un-space like. You can't put walls around space but that's basically where it comes down to.
these aren't walls. they're roads. and they aren't nearly as powerful as titan bridges - they're just convenient in that you don't have to drag someone out of bed to use them, and they're more available but require heavy maintenance.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein Jump bridges inequitably transfer sov into the hands of people who organize 800 person fleets who then casually jump into whatever system they would like and destroy POSes and the like.
This mechanic is entirely unfair as it provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs. Not all 20 man corporations can do this.
It isn't necessarily the bridges themselves that is the problem, but the bridge network's reliability. Now if there was some way to interrupt the operation, and it didn't require a POS assault fleet. How come Sansha never drop that 'jump bridge jammer' module?
What if it was possible to, for example, shoot at the bridge for a while, and make it go offline until the defenders can repair it?
Oh, wait.
Bolded the important part for you. With this kind of attention deficit it's strange that you'd suggest shooting "at the bridge for a while". Do you find it therapeutic? Have you tried shooting station services? You should love that! ...
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm sorry, what is your point? We are discussing ways to make it such that it isn't terminally stupid to go look for a good fight in someone's space.
-Liang
My point is, that is how it should be. Honestly, who believes that a group of 20 buddies should be able to take on a huge group of organized, coordinated allies controlling an entire region or most of it?
The 20 buddies should not be able to take on the huge group - I agree... but they should be able to take on the small part that's separated from the whole - but massive JB networks mean that you can't do that because the whole is never far away.
You talk like the 20 guys are going to cause any real damage in the 20-30 minutes it can take you to manually cross the space... but that's just bull**** and you know it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The 20 buddies should not be able to take on the huge group - I agree... but they should be able to take on the small part that's separated from the whole - but massive JB networks mean that you can't do that because the whole is never far away.
You talk like the 20 guys are going to cause any real damage in the 20-30 minutes it can take you to manually cross the space... but that's just bull**** and you know it.
-Liang
POSes are not the only way to hurt an empire, or at least **** one off. If you have even half decent intel and scouting, you could do a WHOLE lot in twenty minutes.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
POSes are not the only way to hurt an empire, or at least **** one off. If you have even half decent intel and scouting, you could do a WHOLE lot in twenty minutes.
You mean they might be able to kill your roaming gang or something? Maybe demoralize your super well prepared huge group of people by scoring an insignificant skirmish victory? Steal a carrier that's been negligently left laying around? Kill a ratter or two?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ed: And no, they are not "roads". Driving from Seattle to Miami is dramatically different than magically appearing a few seconds from now in Dallas, then a minute later in Miami.
Highways. They function exactly like long-range stargates, basically. (as if there weren't already super-long-range NPC stargates in the game already).
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:34:00 -
[40]
A highway does not allow me to instantly teleport my troops to Miami from Seattle. A highway can be used by both hostiles and friendlies. There are many holes in your analogy.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A highway does not allow me to instantly teleport my troops to Miami from Seattle. A highway can be used by both hostiles and friendlies. There are many holes in your analogy.
-Liang
you realize stargates teleport people too, right?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:40:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 20:40:08 Stargates act as doors to a room - quite literally. Jump bridges allow you to teleport to your uncle's house in Panama.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:44:00 -
[43]
JBs act identical to stargates with the exception that they can be created and destroyed and have limited access. They are equally limited by "real distance". -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:44:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 12/04/2011 20:44:01
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 20:40:08 Stargates act as doors to a room - quite literally. Jump bridges allow you to teleport to your uncle's house in Panama.
-Liang
have you ever used a jump bridge or planned out a jump bridge network? because you seem to be pretty f'ing clueless. its basically a stargate system overlayed on the NPC stargate system. nothing more, nothing less. except it costs ISK to set up and on a daily basis through fuel. you get shortcuts and more direct routes - not "LOL IM IN PANAMA NOW!"
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Sverige Pahis
Caldari Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:45:00 -
[45]
Ugh high level of idiocy in this thread. Can you stop signing your stupid posts we got it the first 3000 times you're called Liang ok super.
-Sverige
Your KB shows nothing but empire - high sec and low - kills. What makes you qualified to argue about a mechanic you know nothing about?
-Sverige
Or do you have other alts amirite
-Sverige
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dr Larry Goldstein This mechanic ... provides an advantage for those who set up JBs and have a network of JBs.
Indeed. It's such a convenient side-effect that I am having a hard time believing that it was not designed so.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:50:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 20:51:11
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki JBs act identical to stargates with the exception that they can be created and destroyed and have limited access. They are equally limited by "real distance".
Quote: have you ever used a jump bridge or planned out a jump bridge network? because you seem to be pretty f'ing clueless. its basically a stargate system overlayed on the NPC stargate system. nothing more, nothing less. except it costs ISK to set up and on a daily basis through fuel. you get shortcuts and more direct routes - not "LOL IM IN PANAMA NOW!"
This is not *really* true. Stargates are static and will never change - they create a topography for the game map. Jump bridges may *mechanic wise* be similar, but they're very akin to teleportation with respect to the game topography.
-Liang
Ed: Turns out this adequately addresses your post as well. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[48]
stop signing your posts, stop talking about something you don't understand, and try moving into a 0.0 empire. those jump bridges make life bearable if you control any decent amount of space.
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[49]
The OP is a well-known troll. It's safe to ignore anything he says.
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[50]
What you're saying is that stargates are massively game breaking because they allow ships to travel instantaneously from one system to another, and ships should use their warp drives to cross the interstellar space to another system.
My Wallpaper |
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale stop signing your posts
Do you *REALLY* think that 5 years in I'm going to suddenly cave in?
Quote: stop talking about something you don't understand
I do understand it - see references to map topology and how they abuse it.
Quote: and try moving into a 0.0 empire
Been there, done that, got the teeshirt.
Quote: those jump bridges make life bearable if you control any decent amount of space.
Then maybe you shouldn't control such large swaths of space? This has been a stated goal of CCP for a while now.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Then maybe you shouldn't control such large swaths of space? This has been a stated goal of CCP for a while now. -Liang
i take it your experience in 0.0 was pretty limited.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:59:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Irani Firecam What you're saying is that stargates are massively game breaking because they allow ships to travel instantaneously from one system to another, and ships should use their warp drives to cross the interstellar space to another system.
No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand: Stargates make map of the game world Jump bridges make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate Jump bridges are invisible
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Jump bridges may *mechanic wise* be similar, but they're very akin to teleportation with respect to the game topography.
-Liang
It's just adding edges to nodes in a graph. All those edges obey certain rules like in-verse distance and session timers. I don't see much problem with drawing more lines on a rather sparse graph. Particularly when it's pretty easy to find an accurate map of it. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:01:00 -
[55]
No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand:
Stargates Solar systems make map of the game world
Jump bridges Stargates make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate solar systems
Jump bridges Stargates are invisible
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Then maybe you shouldn't control such large swaths of space? This has been a stated goal of CCP for a while now. -Liang
i take it your experience in 0.0 was pretty limited.
I'm not sure what CCP's stated intention has to do with how much time I spent in 0.0? My last serious foray into 0.0 was about 6 months ago, and I spent 3.5 years there in my first run. If you're curious.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:05:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/04/2011 21:05:12
Originally by: Irani Firecam No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand:
Stargates Solar systems make map of the game world
Solar systems make maps of solar systems. They are very much discrete points on the game map.
Quote:
Jump bridges Stargates make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate solar systems
This is not really true because solar systems are not connected.
Quote:
Jump bridges Stargates are invisible
This is just crazy talk - solar systems are well defined and published.
-Liang
Ed: Formatting -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:07:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Irani Firecam What you're saying is that stargates are massively game breaking because they allow ships to travel instantaneously from one system to another, and ships should use their warp drives to cross the interstellar space to another system.
No, let me try to make this simple enough for you to understand: Stargates make map of the game world Jump bridges make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate Jump bridges are invisible
-Liang
the NPC stargate system is poorly laid out. The game world map is a three dimensional space with points representing every system, not a flowchart. If you had EVER used a jump drive in your entire EVE career, you'd understand this. It is how the map was laid out, its how it is balanced. DISTANCE is the primary factor, not jumps. player-controlled transportation, such as jump drives, cyno beacons, jump bridges, etc, are all means for players to lay out more efficient transportation routes.
you can keep pretending jump bridges break game balance because you're "teleporting", but you do the same thing at every gate. you seem to think CCP intended for the NPC system to be the game's transportation layout, but that has not been true for as long as jump drives have existed. your reluctance to accept that people can build expensive stargates if they have the capital tells me you have only fought against JB-using alliances, and never for one - so PLEASE stop talking about something you *do not understand*.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:09:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Quote:
Jump bridges Stargates make people teleport across the map of the game world made by stargate solar systems
This is not really true because solar systems are not connected.
Unflatten your map and look at EVE as it really is, please.
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Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I'm not sure what CCP's stated intention -Liang
CCP's doesn't know what their intentions are, they patch the game thinking they will solve problem A but then it creates problem B so they make another patch to solve problem B and end up with problem C and suddenly problem A does look like much of a problem at all.
JB's are convenient, that is all, the large empires will still survive without em. But they were put there for convenience so that more people could participate in the large battles that CCP makes trailers about, now suddenly there is too much participation and people want them gone.
Originally by: Leeroy McJenkins There is no real pvp in EVE, there is only winning or losing and then feeling :smug: about winning or sore about losing. There is nothing wrong with this arrangement.
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