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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:34:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A highway does not allow me to instantly teleport my troops to Miami from Seattle. A highway can be used by both hostiles and friendlies. There are many holes in your analogy.
-Liang
Look at you not knowing what you're talking about.
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Tosser Galore
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:40:00 -
[62]
Remove local and remove high sec. Empire is gay and need to die.
Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
the NPC stargate system is poorly laid out. The game world map is a three dimensional space with points representing every system, not a flowchart. If you had EVER used a jump drive in your entire EVE career, you'd understand this. It is how the map was laid out, its how it is balanced. DISTANCE is the primary factor, not jumps. player-controlled transportation, such as jump drives, cyno beacons, jump bridges, etc, are all means for players to lay out more efficient transportation routes.
...
you can keep pretending jump bridges break game balance because you're "teleporting", but you do the same thing at every gate.
Look, I'm well aware of how jump drives, jump bridges, and jump portals work. I've traveled with all of them repeatedly and for years. That doesn't change the facts: - Travel across the game map is overwhelmingly determined by stargates - Solar systems are points on the game map, and each solar system has its own discrete map from the overall game map. - Travel routes which bypass the NPC stargate map effectively "bridge" or "teleport" people across it.
Quote:
you seem to think CCP intended for the NPC system to be the game's transportation layout, but that has not been true for as long as jump drives have existed
This is ultimately the core of the problem. Jump drives, jump bridges, and jump portals are forms of instantaneous force projection that effectively means you cannot separate a part from the whole. This is what I was trying to get at earlier: No, the 20 buddies aren't going to be able to take on the 2000 man alliance and win, but with proper scouting they should be able to take on 20 people from the 20 man alliance and win.
But instantaneous force projection across many jumps frequently prevents that from being a reality.
Quote: your reluctance to accept that people can build expensive stargates if they have the capital tells me you have only fought against JB-using alliances, and never for one - so PLEASE stop talking about something you *do not understand*.
I have fought both for and against JB using alliances and the tactics used were essentially the same. We used them to trap roaming gangs and get to the fight faster than would otherwise be possible ... if it was even possible at all.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:46:00 -
[64]
yep, you just don't really understand. for a long time player, that's pretty damn embarrassing. no point continuing.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:51:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
yep, you just don't really understand. for a long time player, that's pretty damn embarrassing. no point continuing. you are only capable of looking at this from one angle.
The problem is that I completely understand where you're coming from... and also why it needs to change.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Ladie Scarlet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 22:52:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akirei Scytale
yep, you just don't really understand. for a long time player, that's pretty damn embarrassing. no point continuing. you are only capable of looking at this from one angle.
The problem is that I completely understand where you're coming from... and also why it needs to change.
-Liang
Based on everything you've written about jump bridges and travel mechanics in eve along with the fact that you sign your posts says otherwise.
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Kuar Z'thain
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:01:00 -
[67]
I can't be bothered to read all the stupidity presented here so I just hope that someone has already mentioned that it is possible to interdict travel via jump bridges with a small gang.
This feels just the same as the rhetoric prior to the speed nerfs. Just because you people are lazy and unimaginative, you want to nerf something because you can't think around the problem.
Hey, you want to know how long it takes a POS to lock a bomber? And how long it takes a group of bombers to kill a Battleship?
You just might be surprised.
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:26:00 -
[68]
Not all 20 man corporations can set up 800 person fleets. Therefore 800 person fleets are unfair and should be removed.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:32:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Not all 20 man corporations can set up 800 person fleets. Therefore 800 person fleets are unfair and should be removed.
This is not at all any argument that has been presented here. ;-)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Lilith Savage
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:06:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Not all 20 man corporations can set up 800 person fleets. Therefore 800 person fleets are unfair and should be removed.
Don't see the logic there. Eve fair? Not likely!
What's wrong with an 800 person fleet other than lag?
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:19:00 -
[71]
I don't support the complete removal of JB's, however I insist JB's be moved to planets (or away from POS's).
JB's allow local defenders to outmaneuver, circumvent, and flank/trap enemy fleets. That's an awesome mechanic that should stay.
At the same time, JB's allow the safe movement of vast distances in near-total safety. That's not a good mechanic!
Force projection is a problem in eve.... It has become very easy to fight a multi-front war across many regions with the same fleet. Unfortunately, JB's are only one of several mechanics that make force projection easy within this game. The only true way to limit force projection is to limit jump ranges. However, how do you appropriately limit jump ranges that allows capitals to be useful in your home region, but not-so-instantly-accessible 3 regions away. I personally think the only realistic solution to force projection, without over-nerfing JB's, JP's, and all capitals is to remap the distance between systems.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:24:00 -
[72]
removing JBs will do one thing and one thing only: royally **** off every single titan pilot in all of EVE when they start getting phone calls at 4AM because a bridge is needed for an op.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite I don't support the complete removal of JB's, however I insist JB's be moved to planets (or away from POS's).
The problem with this is how you handle putting up, taking down and hostile take downs if you stop them from being pos modules. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:18:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/04/2011 01:23:42
Originally by: Akirei Scytale removing JBs will do one thing and one thing only: royally **** off every single titan pilot in all of EVE when they start getting phone calls at 4AM because a bridge is needed for an op.
0.0 is ****ting out supercaps so fast I doubt that it'd be a problem long - if indeed it would become one in the first place.
-Liang
Ed: Hell, I'll cover the late late US TZ if you give me a Ragnarok. :p -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Major Templar
Caldari Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:24:00 -
[75]
People want to remove JBs because they want to be able to camp a gate and get kills. They want to make 0.0 more into Low Sec because they don't know how to fight larger groups. People talk about large "800" man fleets being able to jump through a JB. Well one, I don't know of any jumpbridge that can take that many people without having someone there actually fueling it while people are jumping. And two, I don't know of any alliance that actually moves that many people through a JB and not just using a Titan Bridge instead. We are talking about Coalitions, Power Blocks, and some of the most powerful alliances in Eve. Even if you take JBs out of 0.0 your still going to hit alliances that will blot out the sun and blob a gate to utterly screw up your day. Also, little secret for you, most of the support/defense fleets that go for a 20 man gang actually use real stargates more then JBs. This is because both costs of moving said fleets for something small and also because they can sometimes move faster in the right direction. People have to remember, yes the JBs allow you to jump across great distances but they aren't always placed in the right areas to get where you need to go to jump in front of a roaming gang.
Oh and camping a JB with a Stealth Bomber waiting for unguarded and clueless Industrial is freaking awesome for kills. Please don't tread on my JB camping days, I will be ****ed just for taking my funny kills away.
Major Templar Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement |
Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:27:00 -
[76]
Better to make a thread for the removal of stargates instead, so that all non jump drive equipped ships will have to travel in real-time to another system, that will add extra delay to any 800 man blobs.
My Wallpaper |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:28:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Major Templar People want to remove JBs because they want to be able to camp a gate and get kills. They want to make 0.0 more into Low Sec because they don't know how to fight larger groups. People talk about large "800" man fleets being able to jump through a JB. Well one, I don't know of any jumpbridge that can take that many people without having someone there actually fueling it while people are jumping. And two, I don't know of any alliance that actually moves that many people through a JB and not just using a Titan Bridge instead. We are talking about Coalitions, Power Blocks, and some of the most powerful alliances in Eve. Even if you take JBs out of 0.0 your still going to hit alliances that will blot out the sun and blob a gate to utterly screw up your day. Also, little secret for you, most of the support/defense fleets that go for a 20 man gang actually use real stargates more then JBs. This is because both costs of moving said fleets for something small and also because they can sometimes move faster in the right direction. People have to remember, yes the JBs allow you to jump across great distances but they aren't always placed in the right areas to get where you need to go to jump in front of a roaming gang.
Oh and camping a JB with a Stealth Bomber waiting for unguarded and clueless Industrial is freaking awesome for kills. Please don't tread on my JB camping days, I will be ****ed just for taking my funny kills away.
mostly spot on. but I have seen plenty of ops bring a few industrials along purely for fuel. and industrial is not a rare sight on the field - cap fleets like to bring em too.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Irani Firecam Better to make a thread for the removal of stargates instead
-- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:58:00 -
[79]
if your intel is so hilariously bad that you don't know where your enemy's JBs are, and as a result can't plot a course that takes advantage of their positions, then you pretty much deserve to get pincered.
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Ozmodan
Minmatar Massively Mob
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:35:00 -
[80]
Funny how so many people have to jump in with negative comments and yet don't even make an effort to support any kind of an argument.
To those that did supply arguments, most were pretty one sided. Let's face it in a game that is supposed to be a harsh environment, jump bridges are easy street. Obviously it just does not fit the way it currently works with the rest of the game design. Seems obvious it is something that needs changed.
Really cracks me up when posters complain about lag in large fleet fights, yet when a thread like this pops up, they try to make fun of smaller entities trying to make it in 0.0. The major problem in this game is that large size has no disadvantages, hence the need to have larger and larger fleet battles.
Learners permit still current |
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Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:39:00 -
[81]
In a game that is supposed to be a harsh environment, high sec mission running is an easy street. Obviously it just does not fit the way it currently works with the rest of the game design. Seems obvious it is something that needs changed.
My Wallpaper |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Ozmodan The major problem in this game is that large size has no disadvantages, hence the need to have larger and larger fleet battles.
You've clearly never been on comms for 1000+ fleets if you think there's no disadvantages. Or had a JB run out of fuel with half the fleet already through. What's that? JBs actually causing problems?!?! -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 02:53:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Akirei Scytale on 13/04/2011 02:55:24
Originally by: Ozmodan
Really cracks me up when posters complain about lag in large fleet fights, yet when a thread like this pops up, they try to make fun of smaller entities trying to make it in 0.0. The major problem in this game is that large size has no disadvantages, hence the need to have larger and larger fleet battles.
I don't complain about lag in large fleet fights. And as is true with real life, large size has no disadvantages. As long as an army remains coordinated and its logistics are solid, its size is utterly meaningless in any way except maximum projected force and durability.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 03:00:00 -
[84]
Oh my, I am so glad that somebody brought up this topic again.
If not jump bridge, then titan bridge? If not titan bridge, then fleets traveling conventionally gate-to-gate?
The fight is gonna happen any which way the the OP wants to spin things.
And trolling 1/10. JB nerfing has been beaten into a pulp and run through the pulping machine twice.
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Akirei Scytale
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Posted - 2011.04.13 03:09:00 -
[85]
the anti JB argument, in a nutshell:
"oh no, this alliance of several thousand players who worked together to control this region and dumped billions of ISK into infrastructure so they could have some form of advantage in their home space has an advantage over me and my couple of buddies in their home space. nerf this please, its unfair!"
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Major Templar
Caldari Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.04.13 03:30:00 -
[86]
All I'm seeing here are people saying, "please remove JBs because it's not fair that the alliance that owns the space can defend it correctly!"
Look, alliances spend billions of ISK a month to support their networks. Look at Dominion expansion. They took care of the JBs for no real cost thing. You now have to pay ISK costs to run a system with the required Ihub upgrades. If we sit here and say, well lets remove JBs then your going to have to give all the ISK spent on every Ihub upgrade back. And lets be honest, it's not like the OP is making it out to be by allowing alliances to deploy thousands of troops into enemy territory, that's what the Titan bridge does. It's only making defending home territory possible in a universe where Titans are becoming more common. How would it be fair in the end if say you get your way, JBs are taken out. Then the next day a large alliance uses their massive Titan fleet to deploy forces into a system and you have no way to counter that? Then your going to want to remove that. Then once your do that, well by that time you've lost over half the Eve player base. I guess then you would really get all the space you want, no one will be playing anymore and almost no one in 0.0 as at that point it's only worth being in High Sec.
So people, lets just get off this subject. It's been done to death and we really need to get onto a subject worth talking about. Lets say we push CCP to fix a lot of the crap that they keep breaking instead of wining about removing stuff that we all know in the end they will screw up and make things even worse.
Fix the things that are broken first, not trying to break other things.
Major Templar Steel Daggers Gentlemen's Agreement |
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.13 04:09:00 -
[87]
Jump Bridges do not break the game. They provide a nice benefit to those that invest in them. It helps reduce wasted time that is otherwise boring.
What breaks the game is the lack of any anti blob weapons. There are no minefields, no bubbles that act like webs, almost non existent aoe weapons (bombs come to mind that's it), etc.
Lack of environmental effects also limits tactical and strategic choices....I mean you see these in missions, but why don't we have static areas like this? It would open up so many more choices.
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.13 04:33:00 -
[88]
Now hang on just a damn minute here!
This is 0.0 space you are talking about here, so the REAL question is....
... Would that be 2000 Drakes or 2000 Alphamaels?
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.13 06:37:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 13/04/2011 06:39:19
Originally by: El'Niaga
What breaks the game is the lack of any anti blob weapons. There are no minefields, no bubbles that act like webs, almost non existent aoe weapons (bombs come to mind that's it), etc.
And look how people whined when there WERE (original doomsday). Wah Wah! We cant do anything this big meanie alliance doomsdays once every 5 minutes, we cant do anything! Wah!
I wish people could see the big picture. The problem isnt the JBs, the problem is that your enemy outnumbers you. Deal with it. JBs are a nice thing that benefits the alliance who can keep them running, and its a big investment of time (strategic indexes) and money (all the SCUs and poses and durp), while NOT being overpowered. You can take into account enemys JB network, estimate enemy fleet movements, and trap them accordingly. You can even cloakycamp enemy JBs for some occasional juicy cargo.
Its not about the tools, its about how you use them.
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.04.13 06:58:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 13/04/2011 07:01:36 Let's run some numbers:
- A TCU for simple sovereignty costs 180M ISK per month
- The Advanced Logistics Network upgrade for jump bridges costs 300M ISK per month
- A properly outfitted JB POS costs approximately 250M ISK per month in fuel. There are two of these in virtually all JB systems.
Thus, it costs approximately 880M ISK just to maintain the infrastructure for a jump bridge in a single system. We're ignoring the cost of the TCU, IHub, and POS modules, or the time necessary to haul them, or the time and resources necessary to defend them. I suppose that might be cheap, if you have access to a hundred Technetium moons.
Now let's look at what it costs to operate the jump bridge itself:
- A typical jump bridge can store a maximum of 25,000 units of LO. That's 10M ISK of LO if we assume LO only costs 400ISK/unit.
- That's enough LO to move 100 Abaddons the maximum bridgeable distance of 5LY (an Abaddon masses about 100,000,000kg and requires 250LO to bridge 5LY). So much for moving 800 ships in one go, unless it's a fleet of 800 cruiser-sized hulls.
- In other words, it would cost 20M ISK to move a fleet of 200 battleships a single jump. Take that fleet through 5 jump bridges, and you're looking at 100M ISK in fuel costs. Now do that twice a week. That's 800M ISK in fuel costs per month which is, as they say, real money.
- Alternatively, consider a 50-man home defense fleet which bounces between jump bridges while trying to outmaneuver a good opponent. That might burn even more LO than your 200-strong battleship fleet.
- Even without such sillyness as regularly moving hundreds of battleships, assume that your usual jump bridge must be refueled at least twice a week. That's still 80M ISK per month per jump bridge, or 160M ISK per jump bridge system, not counting the time of whoever has to do the rounds.
Thus, the monthly cost of maintaining a system in a jump bridge network is somewhere around a billion ISK, and most likely a few dozen million more depending on various other factors.
So in sum, operating jump bridges is not cheap by most standards. Maintaining the infrastructure for those bridges is most certainly not cheap. Most alliances don't maintain more than the absolute minimum number of jump bridges necessary for defensive purposes and local logistics, and the cost of those jump bridges is borne in large part by regular players. Of course there's one coalition which can afford to park a jump bridge in almost every system. But that's due to CCP's failed attempt at creating incentives for folk to attack the Northern Coalition. When you have access to scores of moons which each bring in upwards of seven billion ISK in revenue per month, I suppose you can afford to splurge.
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