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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Axemaster
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:19:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Axemaster on 13/04/2011 21:23:31
Myself and a lot of other people recently read the devblog about the proposed mechanic of "Time Dialation". In this mechanic, the rate of time would slow down on overloaded servers, allowing all the computations to be finished, as opposed to keeping real time and having everything get messed up (the way it is now).
This is a great plan, but there is a critical flaw:
POS and station sieges.
The defender could pack huge numbers of people into a system, forcing time to slow to the point where it would become impossible for an attacker to destroy a POS or station before downtime. During downtime the shields would recharge significantly, potentially above the reinforcement level, and a tower could be re-stronted. In a worst case scenario, it would take many hours, or even days for a structure to be destroyed, taking an attacker completely out of their timezone and giving the defender big advantages.
In addition, Time Dialation would further incentivize the use of supercapitals, particularly Titans. This is because support fleets could reach a trapped supercap much more easily, since the supercap would take longer to die. And the speed of subcapital ships would matter less, making them less useful in general.
I bring these issues up because while I like the idea of Time Dialation, I can also see that there would be pitfalls associated with it.
One fix I would recommend is that when downtime starts, the rate of time that passes in a system should be the same as the average rate in the last hour before DT started. That would reduce the effects of possible exploits of the POS shield recharging.
EDIT:
An example of an exploit using Time Dialation would be this - a bunch of defenders all undock in destroyers fitted with civilian guns, warp to a safespot, and start shooting each other with ungrouped guns in order to slow down time until reinforcements can arrive. It would be even more effective if they all launched drones.
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:49:00 -
[2]
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but what I got out of that was that time did not actually slow down, just the way the server/client updated/communicated, lowering the number of requests.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.04.13 21:55:00 -
[3]
OP makes a pretty good point. Surely they could just keep TD clicking over during DT though, so shields don't recharge excessively couldn't they?
...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Helixios
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.13 22:19:00 -
[4]
And if they do that, the defender simply has far more time to rally forces to counter the attack, and scout for weak points.
I'd say that balances itself. - Battle Dust Proposal |
Axemaster
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Posted - 2011.04.13 22:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Helixios And if they do that, the defender simply has far more time to rally forces to counter the attack, and scout for weak points.
I'd say that balances itself.
Pretty sure you missed the point. My whole argument says that the defender gets huge advantages in the new system. So no, it's not balanced at all.
In fact, I'd say this feature encourages blobbing more than any other in the history of the game.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.04.13 22:40:00 -
[6]
Considering you have absolutely no idea how this will implemented with regards to incoming reinforcements from outside of the fight system, maybe you should stfu?
...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Axemaster
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Posted - 2011.04.13 22:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau Considering you have absolutely no idea how this will implemented with regards to incoming reinforcements from outside of the fight system, maybe you should stfu?
Not sure if this was directed at myself or Helixios. If it was directed at me, then this is my response:
CCP designed the Sov system, with the 3 day long station sieges. And many other snafus.
So I'm just bringing this issue into the public (and hopefully CCP's) consciousness. Even so, I fully expect this to arrive marked "Exploitable!".
I really want Time Dialation to be implemented. But it needs to be done correctly.
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Ada Tora
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Posted - 2011.04.13 23:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Axemaster I really want Time Dialation to be implemented. But it needs to be done correctly.
Any implementation by which game time moves faster in one region of space compared to another, and is controllable by player action, is 100% exploitable. It doesn't even take an ounce of creativity to come up with ways for this to happen.
This mechanic only favours the large super-alliances and coalitions.
If you're going to slow down time during large fleet battles, slow down time for everyone in the game to make it fair. Otherwise you're just asking for trouble.
But please, don't take the word of players on this. Ignore us like usual and implement your new half-baked idea and then backpedal when it gets exploited. Just don't ban the people trying to bring it to your attention this time, eh?
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.13 23:39:00 -
[9]
I didn't realise that Eve had a time constraint. I mean I thought it already slowed down when the grid was heaving. But anyway it seems to me that all you have to do is multiply your equation for whatever by "t", where "t" is the time step, and everything would stay as it was. That is to say, for example, if your equation gave you 1000 * t dps with the current clock tick (t = 1) then in a time dilation situation you would be doing 1000 * t dps where t = whatever the dilation factor was. If it was 2 (half speed), your dps would be 2000 :p. (s being a second of server time, not a second on your watch).
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.13 23:59:00 -
[10]
Downtime is fairly short, I do not think POS shields can get all the way from 25% to 50% during a DT (needed to allow a new reinforcing cycle).
Also, right now undocking a huge number of destroyers to lag the node will have a bigger delaying effect than time dilation, giving time for reinforcements to arrive. When lag hits it looks like the server gets into some sort of self-defeating loop, trying to do tasks over and over, never finishing, always re-starting, beating itself to death.
The issue the OP brings up is valid, but we already have it.
TD may in fact make huge battles run faster by allowing the sever to finish tasks, rather than restarting half finished tasks over and over each clock tick.
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Captain Brickwalle
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Posted - 2011.04.14 03:39:00 -
[11]
OMG new mechanic makes blobs not insta-pwn structures with millions and millions of hitpoints!
also they said it was based on server strain not on number of players.... since the server can currently handle thousands of people with minimal lag, this dilation surely would only kick in when 3000+ people are engaged. |
Your Client
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Posted - 2011.04.14 03:52:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Your Client on 14/04/2011 03:55:27 Im pretty sure time dilation only refers to pvp related actions.
Quote: In a dilated system, your guns might fire at half their normal speed, but you would be 100% certain that your guns fired and shot who you were aiming at. Meanwhile, your out-of-battle functions such as skills would continue at a normal rate.
Hopefully, a pos/station timer would be considered "out-of-battle" even when its being attacked or is firing on someone.
EDIT: If Blobs = time dilation, then station sieges might take 3 weeks
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Astroka
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:04:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Astroka on 14/04/2011 04:05:43 I've read about and discussed the original proposal in assembly hall, and this is the way they want to do it?
I'm all for helping out with lag, but seriously, making any one area of space operate slower than the rest is absolute bull. NOT the way to go about it, IMO.
But, sometimes extreme circumstances cause for extreme measures.
====================================== "Rawr" means "I love you" in dinosaur! ====================================== |
Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:41:00 -
[14]
THere has been conversations about CYNOS and spool up times, which could be made to "dilate" as well. Jump gate traffic could be slowed down and you could spread out the effect from the system to make the effect more continuous and less discrete.
***** Signature may appear without warning! ***** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Astroka Edited by: Astroka on 14/04/2011 04:05:43
I'm all for helping out with lag, but seriously, making any one area of space operate slower than the rest is absolute bull. NOT the way to go about it, IMO.
Generally speaking, time dilation already exists, we like it or not. Just its' effects may be quite random and different for people in the same system.
By making it "official", hopefully, it will be more "fair".
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Rens Cheque
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Axemaster Edited by: Axemaster on 13/04/2011 21:23:31 The defender could pack huge numbers of people into a system, forcing time to slow to the point where it would become impossible for an attacker to destroy a POS or station before downtime.
Hmm, I haven't participated in any of the 0.0 blobfests myself, but couldn't a defender do the same thing with the current system and just lag the node to hell and back to save a POS anyway?
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:05:00 -
[17]
You do realize that they could make all SBU/TCU/Station/logoff timers the same RL length no matter how much they change the speed of the system clock, right?
Right? ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Jada Maroo
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:05:00 -
[18]
Surely everything in the system will have to be slowmo'd right? Even shield recharge rates. If not, then shield users are going to have a MASSIVE advantage.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:10:00 -
[19]
Some good points and an excellent scenario.
Now's the time to bring up such things, though sadly CCP ignores folks when they poke holes in their plans....
I'm all for the defender having an advantage though. Nothing wrong with that but this could perhaps tip the scales a bit to much.
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Sekket
Caldari White-Noise
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Posted - 2011.04.14 06:44:00 -
[20]
The idea of the time dilation is that everything goes bullet time but nobody gets to be Neo, or even Trinity. The speed of the simulation slows down for the affected systems, so the clock ticks that cycle your guns, move your ships, recharge your capacitor and shields and pulse your modules all happen slower so the servers have the time to run all the calculations and apply the results for everyone in the system during the same tick.
The OP does have a good point about defenders exploiting such a system by trying to stretch the combat out to downtime in order to get the POS shield recharge, but that can be taken care of with a rule change.
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SmashTech
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Posted - 2011.04.14 06:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Axemaster I'd say this feature encourages blobbing more than any other in the history of the game.
*Spoiler Alert* -----------------
This feature is designed to enable fairer (lag-wise) large-scale fleet warfare.
I bolded the important part for you.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.04.14 07:11:00 -
[22]
Metagaming in my my EVE !??!!
Some of you act like these kind of things aren't possible or done already. If you can force the system to time dilation in the future you can force it to be unplayable now with even less effort, ensuring there will be no fighting. A stressed server doesn't work properly now, so even if it doesn't crash the affects to actual combat is worse than it would be in a time dilated system. The only difference is that with time dilation you would need a much larger amount of people to bring the server to that state, so if anything time dilation would improve the attackers chance to destroy the targets in time.
In the worst case scenario you will have to make some adjustments to few game mechanics to minimize the effects of metagaming. Either way minimal, already exiting issues for huge gains. A tradeoff I'd happily make in an instant.
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CCP Veritas
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Posted - 2011.04.14 09:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Axemaster Fantastic post
These are all fine points that we'll absolutely have to keep in mind while this gets done.
In general though, I fall back on the reality that a heavily overloaded system today drops DPS down very far already due to unresponsiveness. All time dilation really changes is that it makes that mechanism planned and predictable.
In other words, a defender who wanted to stall the fight to wait for more reinforcement, and happened to have a few hundred people on hand to make that happen, can already do so today.
The cyno question is one we're going to have to ponder a bit, that's a situation where events in one system have meaning in others, which makes the decision on whether to dilate them or not non-trivial.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.14 09:46:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Axemaster
Originally by: Helixios And if they do that, the defender simply has far more time to rally forces to counter the attack, and scout for weak points.
I'd say that balances itself.
Pretty sure you missed the point. My whole argument says that the defender gets huge advantages in the new system. So no, it's not balanced at all.
In fact, I'd say this feature encourages blobbing more than any other in the history of the game.
I still don't understand how this would work. As I explained above, if instead of the server time constraint = 1 second, you change it to 2 seconds, you simply multiply your equation by t = 2 - everything still happens at the same rate, it's just that you "miss" the state at t = 1. You've still applied t * DPS, you've still tanked t * DPS, you've still moved t * distance, etc. It's just like running a movie at 30 fps instead of 60 fps, but skipping every other frame.
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Major Failsauce
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:03:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Major Failsauce on 14/04/2011 10:03:29 Time Dialation is an incentive to create even bigger blops where everyone and the kitchen sink will have to be thrown in to defend.
This solution will buy CPP some time to fix lag properly. Eventually the blop will catch up and RL time will be the determining factor.
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Your Client
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:16:00 -
[26]
Time dilation should be spread to skill training! If you are allegiant to your alliance, you will take the hit! Stop being a wuss and make sacrifices for your alliance!
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chaosyourgod
Minmatar Virtual Warriors IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Axemaster
Myself and a lot of other people recently read the devblog about the proposed mechanic of "Time Dialation". In this mechanic, the rate of time would slow down on overloaded servers, allowing all the computations to be finished, as opposed to keeping real time and having everything get messed up (the way it is now). quote]
eve online needs bullet time thats what i read from that and i agree with it completely, ccp make it so
the truth is but a lie |
Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Your Client Time dilation should be spread to skill training! If you are allegiant to your alliance, you will take the hit! Stop being a wuss and make sacrifices for your alliance!
People more worried about skill training than ~good fights~ are playing the wrong game.
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Montgomery Crabapple
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: Your Client Time dilation should be spread to skill training! If you are allegiant to your alliance, you will take the hit! Stop being a wuss and make sacrifices for your alliance!
People more worried about skill training than ~good fights~ are playing the wrong game.
I care more about skill training than I do about good fights, so **** off.
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Ada Tora
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, a defender who wanted to stall the fight to wait for more reinforcement, and happened to have a few hundred people on hand to make that happen, can already do so today.
Shouldn't this be considered a deliberate attempt to abuse broken game mechanics to skew results in your favour? Use the example already given about launching a couple hundred destroyers with noob guns, all shooting at each other. The only reason for that is to consume CPU time. There are potentially many other ways to do this, some easier to spot than others.
Shouldn't that warrant at least a temporary ban instead of using technology to fix an administrative problem (which it will fail to do)?
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