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Miss Krunk
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:16:00 -
[1]
It is my understanding that target painters do little for turrets, but is there a need for one if I am firing at a small target at range. When tracking is not an issue how much does sig come into play with gunnery?
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Laeris Evanstar
Amarr Petals of Derketo
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Posted - 2011.04.14 05:38:00 -
[2]
If transversal velocity is low, it doesn't matter what the sig radius is. For example, take a small ship like a Sentinel. Make it stop... then let a Paladin shoot it with a full battery. Splat, 1 shot kill mail.
Now, if said Sentinel is moving, sig radius comes into play with hit % along with transversal velocity. Painters do make small things easier to hit... but what's more effective is reducing the target's transversal velocity. IE, to manually compensate for it or web it. Either will have more results than a target painter alone.
"Not your typical Roleplayer" |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.14 07:34:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Miss Krunk It is my understanding that target painters do little for turrets, but is there a need for one if I am firing at a small target at range. When tracking is not an issue how much does sig come into play with gunnery?
If tracking is not an issue, then sig radius and sig resolution are irrelevant and a target painter has no effect.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.04.14 09:55:00 -
[4]
Tracking is nearly always an issue if either ship is moving and said moving doesn't involve approaching each other.
In PvP, you will be hard pressed to find scenarios where tracking is not an issue. People are always moving and usually never directly at something shooting them. Target Painters are great for gang PvP work, as your painter will increase the damage everybody's drones/missiles/guns are doing.
In PvE, non-sleeper AI NPCs will just approach or fly away from you until they get into their desired orbit distance. On approach, they are incredibly easy to hit, but once they settle in their orbits, the target painter helps. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:56:00 -
[5]
Here are my scrawlings all over the turret formula. Should help.
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sapator07
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:58:00 -
[6]
So in most of the case is better to fitt an tracking module than a target painter?
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Crabs Collector
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:59:00 -
[7]
Originally by: sapator07 So in most of the case is better to fitt an tracking module than a target painter?
Bingo!
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Miss Krunk
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:05:00 -
[8]
Originally by: sapator07 So in most of the case is better to fitt an tracking module than a target painter?
Yes.
But I originally asked the question because I am in an AC machariel with the common 4 gyro 3 tracking enhancer set-up. I have pretty good tracking and I tend to use an alt to RR, so I could free up a mid or two. I was considering a painter for one of those spots.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: sapator07 So in most of the case is better to fitt an tracking module than a target painter?
It's situational.
A painter with any skill level of Signature Focusing behind it will provide a greater (20% greater at Sig Foc IV) increase in tracking than a tracking-scripted tracking computer, and one that doesn't stack with your tracking mods such as TCs or TEs. But on the minus side, it has a longish cycle time, a long but limited range (50% hit chance at 126 km with skills at IV) and you can't jam an optimal range script into it.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Laeris Evanstar Painters do make small things easier to hit... but what's more effective is reducing the target's transversal velocity.
I, me, love the Bhaalgorn's bonus
And those pew"s are so powerful, love it.
Sry, out of topic I'm already away ->[-] ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Pod Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:08:00 -
[11]
I would pick tracking computer if solo and don't need the extra potential range with the other script.
Another thing that is often overlooked is that target painter is pretty much the equivalent of tracking computer Mounted on ALL the gang members ships with one module.
Also the statements that if you can track it it is useless is not correct.
If you can track it it does not mean that you will hit it. Pod |
Valeroth Kyarmentari
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Posted - 2011.04.14 13:11:00 -
[12]
The general rule I fly as...
When solo, I do not use a Target Painter.
When flying in a gang I use one (and several others also do).
It's much more useful when it's giving everyone on ourside the bonus.
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kyrv
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Posted - 2011.04.14 13:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Laeris Evanstar If transversal velocity is low, it doesn't matter what the sig radius is. For example, take a small ship like a Sentinel. Make it stop... then let a Paladin shoot it with a full battery. Splat, 1 shot kill mail.
Having said that there is a sub system called a wake limiter.
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Laeris Evanstar
Amarr Petals of Derketo
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Posted - 2011.04.14 22:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Valeroth Kyarmentari The general rule I fly as...
When solo, I do not use a Target Painter.
When flying in a gang I use one (and several others also do).
It's much more useful when it's giving everyone on ourside the bonus.
I use TPs on missile boats like Ravens. They do have a big impact on torp damage
"Not your typical Roleplayer" |
Herrring
Amarr National Quality Breaker
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Posted - 2011.04.15 03:11:00 -
[15]
Reasons TPs aren't used for PVE turret ships.
1. it has a longer cycle time.
2. Some people think TP = missiles and don't know TPs have the same effect with turrets.
3. It has a limited range.
A TP that gives you a 30% sig bonus on targer should affect your tracking as much as a 30% bonus on tracking speed from a TC.
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Crellion
Parental Control HELL4S
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Posted - 2011.04.15 05:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Herrring Reasons TPs aren't used for PVE turret ships.
1. it has a longer cycle time.
2. Some people think TP = missiles and don't know TPs have the same effect with turrets.
3. It has a limited range.
A TP that gives you a 30% sig bonus on targer should affect your tracking as much as a 30% bonus on tracking speed from a TC.
Not exactly because if you are shooting at a Battleship with medium sized long range guns and you are missing because his phat signature is moving at a very fast transversal (just a theoretical mwd scenario)/ or you are moving at a very fast transversal, a tracking computer (track script or unscripted) will help you and a painter wont.
No?
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Vorekk
LowBall Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.15 06:54:00 -
[17]
I'd like to correct some of the glaring fallacies in this topic.
Originally by: Gypsio III If tracking is not an issue, then sig radius and sig resolution are irrelevant and a target painter has no effect.
Completely incorrect.
Originally by: Miss Krunk It is my understanding that target painters do little for turrets, but is there a need for one if I am firing at a small target at range. When tracking is not an issue how much does sig come into play with gunnery?
Ships have signature radius and turrets have a signature resolution. A frigate's small turrets will hit a battleship for 100% of its damage. A battleship's large turrets will inflict a fraction of its possible damage to a frigate (although, still usually enough to pop it).
Signature radius has NOTHING to do with tracking, and vice versa. They are independent of each other. --- Join Lowball Heavy Industries. Small, focused fleets - lots of high intensity action, the EVE way. |
Isan'na
Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.04.15 07:17:00 -
[18]
I'd like to correct some of the glaring fallacies in this topic.
Originally by: Vorekk
Signature radius has NOTHING to do with tracking, and vice versa. They are independent of each other.
Completely incorrect.
Originally by: Vorekk
Ships have signature radius and turrets have a signature resolution. A frigate's small turrets will hit a battleship for 100% of its damage. A battleship's large turrets will inflict a fraction of its possible damage to a frigate (although, still usually enough to pop it).
The interplay between signature radius and signature resolution occurs within the tracking formula as (more or less) a multiplier to the angular velocity. This differs from the missile formula, where damage is hard-capped by sig radius/explosion radius.
This absolutely means that a battleship can hit a frigate for full damage, so long as the angular velocity * sig difference doesn't exceed the gun's tracking.
To put it another way, a large gun with a tracking of 0.1 rad shooting a smaller target might function like a gun with 0.025 rad tracking.
<Isan>
MALD, your best source for Concord LP.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.15 07:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vorekk I'd like to correct some of the glaring fallacies in this topic.
Originally by: Gypsio III If tracking is not an issue, then sig radius and sig resolution are irrelevant and a target painter has no effect.
Completely incorrect.
Originally by: Miss Krunk It is my understanding that target painters do little for turrets, but is there a need for one if I am firing at a small target at range. When tracking is not an issue how much does sig come into play with gunnery?
Ships have signature radius and turrets have a signature resolution. A frigate's small turrets will hit a battleship for 100% of its damage. A battleship's large turrets will inflict a fraction of its possible damage to a frigate (although, still usually enough to pop it).
Signature radius has NOTHING to do with tracking, and vice versa. They are independent of each other.
Lolz. Threads like this about tracking mechanics can always be relied upon to expose morans.
Signature and signature resolution act as a modifier to tracking. If transversal is zero, signature has no effect and a large gun will hit the teeniest of frigates for full damage.
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VC General
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Posted - 2011.04.15 07:51:00 -
[20]
Edited by: VC General on 15/04/2011 07:51:52 TP's aren't that great for turrets because tracking is more important to turret damage than sig radius. Basically, if you do have enough tracking to hit a small target, the only thing determined by sig radius is your chance of getting a clean hit. Like others have been saying already, even a glancing hit from a full rack of beams is instant death for most frigs.
TP's come more into play with missiles, because missiles disregard things like approach angle and your own speed. Missiles only have the damage element of the equation applied to them, so long as they have the speed and range to reach the target. Missiles have a built in nerf called damage reduction factor, along with their explosion radius and velocity. These add up in such a way that the raw speed and sig radius of a ship fully determine the damage it receives from a missile. Therefore the only way to get more damage potential from the missile applied to the target is to slow the target down, or increase it's sig radius.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.15 08:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: The Djego on 15/04/2011 08:43:58
Originally by: Gypsio III Lolz. Threads like this about tracking mechanics can always be relied upon to expose morans.
Signature and signature resolution act as a modifier to tracking. If transversal is zero, signature has no effect and a large gun will hit the teeniest of frigates for full damage.
It's math, therefore a total mystery to most people.
It is explained here.
Edit: Added math. -.- ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Sothryn Omidira
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Posted - 2011.04.18 16:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 15/04/2011 08:43:58
It's math, therefore a total mystery to most people.
It is explained here.
Edit: Added math. -.-
Oh, thank you for that link! I've found some of the formulas before, but to have them all in one place is great.
Of course, I'm one of those few people who love math, so find this page intriguing.
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Miss Krunk
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Posted - 2011.04.18 23:30:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Miss Krunk on 18/04/2011 23:30:56
Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 15/04/2011 08:43:58
Originally by: Gypsio III Lolz. Threads like this about tracking mechanics can always be relied upon to expose morans.
Signature and signature resolution act as a modifier to tracking. If transversal is zero, signature has no effect and a large gun will hit the teeniest of frigates for full damage.
It's math, therefore a total mystery to most people.
It is explained here.
Edit: Added math. -.-
What the above posted said. I've never seen the exact formula before, that clears up all of my questions.
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