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Rykanator
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Posted - 2011.04.18 12:29:00 -
[1]
just out of interest,
in regards to blitzing lvl 3/4 mission why dont tengu pilots just field a passive tank MWD and HAML for the extra DPS and speed? seems abit odd to me that most tengus are faction fit passive tanks with HML's? Cap isnt an issue is it ? your not going to be perma running the MWD just to get you into 30km?
Remarks please!
X
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.18 12:33:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Rykanator Remarks please!
X
a) it's just "HAM" not "HAML" b) missile speed rigs? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Tesh Sevateem
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Posted - 2011.04.18 13:21:00 -
[3]
By fitting an MWD, you lose the advantage of speed tanking with an AB (you certainly don't want to speed tank with an MWD active - to even say tank at all). Of course you could fit both an MWD and an AB, but... no. Flying to HAM range with a passive Tengu is therefore more risky, not only because of the increased damage taken for flying at around 200 m/s as opposed to 600+, but also due to the fact that you'll be launching yourself in the arms of webbers and scramblers (forcing you to also take out those ships before you can engage other, perhaps more deadly, ships).
The versatility of using an AB together with HML really outweighs any DPS advantage you may have with the HAM - at least in the majority of cases. Also, the Rigor rigs don't work on HAM.
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GyokZoli
Caldari Sanctum of Citizens
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Posted - 2011.04.18 13:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rykanator just out of interest,
in regards to blitzing lvl 3/4 mission why dont tengu pilots just field a passive tank MWD and HAML for the extra DPS and speed? seems abit odd to me that most tengus are faction fit passive tanks with HML's? Cap isnt an issue is it ? your not going to be perma running the MWD just to get you into 30km?
Remarks please!
X
Bad idea. Only HM Tengu works well in PvE. The biggest advantage of a Tengu is its range and you are killing it with HAMs.
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FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.04.18 14:35:00 -
[5]
HAMs work, but too much effort with approaching targets for too small dps advantage over HML rages. Navy HAMs outdamage rages by 10% at 30% range and have worse damage application to small stuff(because of rigors) Also most PVE tengus are active tanked, unlike OP indicates(because of damagemods in low) |
ValentinaDLM
Minmatar Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.04.18 14:46:00 -
[6]
I know at least one person who uses a battleship afterburner and HAMs but they use a 5 launcher setup, they swear by it but for PVE I don't see the point so much since dropping to 5 launchers to fit a 100mn ab negates the DPS increase from HAMs. On top of that they use a bunch of faction just to make it all fit. It does however go over 1kms with a 150m sig, so that could be nice in PVP applications I guess, but I prefer much cheaper ships for PVP.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.18 16:49:00 -
[7]
HML - 8,000+ m/s. MWD Tengu: 1,250 m/s
HAM with T2 Kin ammo: 971 DPS out to ~30km (1 range rig, 1 RoF rig) HAM with T2 Kin ammo: 916 DPS out to ~40km (3 range rigs) HML with T2 Kin Fury ammo: 784 DPS out to 100+km HAM with T1 kin ammo: 759 DPS out to 30-45km depending on rigs.
So T2 HML ammo outperforms T1 HAM ammo, which means you should only be using T2 HAM ammo. However, a lot of Rats orbit at distances at 30+km so you'll lose DPS while traveling to them, and T2 HAMs have a 180m explosion radius which means they'll be doing reduced damage against all but the biggest Guristas cruisers, whereas T2 HMLs do rather well against most cruisers, so you'll need to swap HAM ammo more often which lowers your DPS. A HAM Tengu will probably want to carry a TP to help deal with Cruisers, but the 10 second cycle time on Painters is going to be annoying.
HAMs are going to have trouble with Frigates. T2 HML Fury missiles with a Rigor I rig have almost the same explosion radius and explosion velocity as T1 HAMs. An HML boat doesn't even have to switch to T1 ammo to kill frigates as well as a HAM boat.
HAMs also require that you move directly at your target (minimal transversal) in order to close as quickly as possible, so you'll be taking more damage from their guns.
And of course, as previously mentioned, do you really want a battleship sized sig on a cruiser? You could wind up taking a *lot* of damage from cruisers and battleships if your MWD doesn't finish turning off by the time those NPC webbing frigates drop your speed down to single digits.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:13:00 -
[8]
i am currently deciding what to go for first, t2 HAM or t2 HM. I am not using any non t2 launchers though, using another ship (turret platform) while training for tengu.
assuming realistic skills, like WU3, spec3, RL5 and lvl4 missile range skills (which are easy to make lvl5 though).
the major point here is rig config. basically i am considering 2 variants: 1. DPS - BLA II and some other thing worth 100 calibration points, which could be t1 range rig (fuel cache or that other one) which I will assume for this analysis. 2. range - basically you can fit 2 different missile range t2 rigs and one t1 range rig (any of 2) which gives HUGE effect on range.
also I am assuming t2 ammo ONLY for the purpose of this analysis..
so here is what I got with eft:
HM tengu, DPS rigs: scourge fury, 700 dps at 99 km (I am rounding dps a bit), ?? dps with precision missiles. HAM tengu, DPS rigs: terror javelin, 680 dps at 45 km; terror rage, 970 dps at 27 km. HAM tengu, range rigs: terror javelin, 640 dps at 64 km; terror rage, 910 dps at 38 km.
so as you see, range fit looks much better than dps one for HAM tengu, and with lvl5 range skills the maximum missile range is almost the same as with HM, albeit with a little less DPS. Is losing 60 dps worth getting a huge dps boost at 38 km? IMO it does since I am used to 20km optimal with my lasers.
and another thing. HAM Javelins have smaller explosion radius and more explosion velocity than precision HMs. that means that they are even better for frigs...
so idk about you guys but I am leaning towards going for HAMs first.
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FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
so here is what I got with eft:
HM tengu, DPS rigs: scourge fury, 700 dps at 99 km (I am rounding dps a bit), ?? dps with precision missiles. HAM tengu, DPS rigs: terror javelin, 680 dps at 45 km; terror rage, 970 dps at 27 km. HAM tengu, range rigs: terror javelin, 640 dps at 64 km; terror rage, 910 dps at 38 km.
why would you fit dps rigs to tengu? they're stacking penalized with ballistic controls and you probably have 3 or 4 of those - hence the difference of just 40 dps for HAMS you fit capacitor rigs for monster tank, rigors to apply all of scourge furies damage to cruiser size, or range rigs/flares for HAM fit |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.18 20:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
and another thing. HAM Javelins have smaller explosion radius and more explosion velocity than precision HMs. that means that they are even better against frigs...
No. You misread the numbers.
Quote: so idk about you guys but I am leaning towards going for HAMs first.
Let me put it another way. With an RF 10MN AB, you have a speed of 661m/s.
Max HML Tengu: 768 DPS. Max HAM Tengu w/3 range rigs: 916 DPS.
HAMs do 19% more DPS than the HMLs. (916 / 768 = 1.19.)
If you fire the HAMs for 30 seconds, the HMLs would need (30 * 1.19) = 35.7 seconds to match the HAM's damage.
If the HAM Tengu has to travel 5km to get into range, then (5,000m / 661m/s) = 7.5 seconds are needed to get into HAM range. And that's not counting align time and acceleration.
Do you see the problem?
HAM Tengu: At *least* 7.5 seconds to travel 5k + 30 seconds = 37.5+ seconds. The HAM Tengu needs 37.5 seconds to do 30 seconds of DPS. Whereas the HML Tengu doesn't need to get into range and thus does 30 seconds of DPS in 30 seconds.
To add insult to injury, remember it took the HML Tengu 35.7 seconds to match 30 seconds of HAM damage. In the 37.5 seconds it took the HAM Tengu to get into range and shoot, the HML Tengu winds up doing 5% more DPS than the HAMs because it's firing for the full 37.5 seconds. (37.5 / 35.7 = 1.05)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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lordlulzs
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Posted - 2011.04.18 22:09:00 -
[11]
Edited by: lordlulzs on 18/04/2011 22:15:07 Edited by: lordlulzs on 18/04/2011 22:10:12 The only time its a good idea to use T2 HAM's in a tengu is when you camp the fon station in the drone infested corridor of deltole.
the spawn wave pops up at 5KM from you and they never get more than 10km away before dieing.
with a sensor booster your only competition would be from sliepneirs, absolutions and astartes.
Edit: Use Therm Missiles, not kinetic.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.19 04:08:00 -
[12]
my bad, i forgot to add 5% implants to HM fit :( with them it's indeed 770 dps. although precisions are less than 600 dps so HAM should be are better against those 260k cruiser rats.
still I agree that 770 dps to 910 dps upgrade is probably not worth it.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.19 04:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: FlameGlow why would you fit dps rigs to tengu? they're stacking penalized with ballistic controls and you probably have 3 or 4 of those - hence the difference of just 40 dps for HAMS
t2 BLA has better effect on rate of fire than CN BCU so its effect is counted above all else, hence it is NOT penalized. if you use t1 BLA it has no effect. adding t2 BLA on top of 4 CN BCU causes 7.3% dps increase. the drawback is that only 100 calibration is left which is only enough for some t1 rigs.
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PrinceVultan
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Posted - 2011.04.19 04:59:00 -
[14]
If you try harder, you can get 841dps from HML tengu and still fit a rigor rig and enough tank for 8/10's.
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FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
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Posted - 2011.04.19 06:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Originally by: FlameGlow why would you fit dps rigs to tengu? they're stacking penalized with ballistic controls and you probably have 3 or 4 of those - hence the difference of just 40 dps for HAMS
t2 BLA has better effect on rate of fire than CN BCU so its effect is counted above all else, hence it is NOT penalized. if you use t1 BLA it has no effect. adding t2 BLA on top of 4 CN BCU causes 7.3% dps increase. the drawback is that only 100 calibration is left which is only enough for some t1 rigs.
then your BCU is penalized and 4th one gives even less increase then normally |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.19 08:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: FlameGlow
then your BCU is penalized and 4th one gives even less increase then normally
its rate of fire bonus is reduced into nothing, but damage bonus still works.
anyway using 4 BCU and a rig gives the best raw DPS you can get from a tengu, and you go from there if you need something else - remove either BLA or 1 BCU or both, according to your specific needs...
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.04.19 08:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: PrinceVultan If you try harder, you can get 841dps from HML tengu and still fit a rigor rig and enough tank for 8/10's.
probably all skills at V and some officer BCU and launchers and 6% implants, well I stated I used realistic skills/fit (for me at least).
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GyokZoli
Caldari Sanctum of Citizens
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Posted - 2011.04.19 08:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Originally by: PrinceVultan If you try harder, you can get 841dps from HML tengu and still fit a rigor rig and enough tank for 8/10's.
probably all skills at V and some officer BCU and launchers and 6% implants, well I stated I used realistic skills/fit (for me at least).
No. Just 5% implants and Navy BCUs. But ofcourse with maxed skills which you should have anyway if you are serious about mission running.
Here is the fit:
[Tengu, Max DPS] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
+ ZMH2000, ZMA1000, ZMS1000, ZMM1000
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Vokradacka
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Posted - 2011.04.19 14:34:00 -
[19]
max "real" dps is
HAM 1052dps for 28kms HML 841dps for 100+kms If you are doing Anoms/missions with close spawns(to 30kms)..HAM tengu is viable, bigger expl. radius is compensated by faster RoF. I hve both...
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