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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:15:00 -
[1]
Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
rinse/repeat.
Everyday I come across a thread where someone asks or boasts about earning 80-100mil isk per hour. Now mind you, some people PVE for reasons other than trying to maximize their in-game wealth as fast as possible (IE: running lvl 5s with friends while having a good time on vent/ts, or being constructive by mining while watching your favorite tv program) and if you fall into that category of casual player, then you can move on to the next topic. However, I've always wondered why people spend so much time grinding their way to capital ships, faction fitted ships..etc etc at a snail's pace. Not everyone agrees with what I will say, but most will agree that time=money. The thing about time is that its universal. Time spent in game could be time spent doing something more profitable IRL.
GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work. 100mil isk an hour grinding L4s or plexing whatever effectively translates into 5$ an hour. That number gets even lower if your not blitzing said missions in a pimped out golem. I don't really know of anyone that would work 7hrs a day for 35$. Heck, current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that. When I first started playing EvE a few years ago, I would skip out of work early so I could get home and play. That is, until i realized how I was lowering the value of my time. It amazes me how many people grind all night for a few hundred million and complain about how much of a chore or "like a 2nd job" it is to play.
So unless you grind isk because your RL income is driven from RMTs from game, or you're a child who can't work; Is your time really worth 5$ an hour? If it is, see step 1.
Once liberated from the 'boring' aspects of the game and the fear of losing your 20mil fit rifter, you'll find a new found love for the game.
flame on.
tl;dr: Buy GTCs, your time is worth more than 5$ an hour... i think.
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Mortania
Minmatar Kinetic Cartel
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:18:00 -
[2]
The man has a point.
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Herrring
Amarr National Quality Breaker
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:21:00 -
[3]
This.
lol, if you are having fun grinding, it's ok.
Since the point of playing games is to have fun.
However, if you think grinding isk is torture and you still do it, you have a problem.
I mean if you buy a GTC, and sell it for isk, you are usually good for a while(that is if you are pvping.)
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Fix Lag
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:30:00 -
[4]
Is this supposed to be some kind of half-witty sarcasm or an advertisement for buying CCP's most expensive subscription option?
Fix Lag! |
Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: death klokk
GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work.
...
current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that.
Great! Can you help me get a green card so I can move over to US and work for $35 an hour? It's really a pain to pay for EVE where I live, because the monthly average wage on the state level here is around $200.
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Bill The Cat
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:31:00 -
[6]
Casual Player, not real rich, job sucks and pay is even suckier. I pay my bills. Have enough food to eat. And a small amount of splash for 'entertainment' However... the price of good hookers has gone up, so I play EVE. Thppbbttt |
Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:37:00 -
[7]
vov
I've invested in this manner before, but for the most part i'm relaxed by grinding after work. Sure, I could be putting in extra time or working on other things (i'm a professor, so i've got the education part covered in spades), but I reserve spending cash for the times when grinding makes me really nauseated. The kind of nauseated I get when I grade a 101 class' research papers or listen to my department chair rant on about faculty not reading his 900 daily emails.
TL;DR: Work sucks at times as much as grinding isk does. Which one factors out to less pain for the profit is not so cut and dry. I don't deliberately duck my day job to make isk, but there are days i'm "out sick," because i'd rather do some mundane in-game tasks than deal with my job.
P.s. 35 is well above the american average for hourly wage, even for the moderately educated.
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Yanshee
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:37:00 -
[8]
OP has a point. Fair enough if you actually enjoy the grinding process...you strange individuals. But when EVE ever becomes a chore, the whole: "I can't PVP, I've got to keep grinding Sanctums (oh no wait) to pay for this month's subscription"... do some damn overtime. Funding with PLEX isn't cheating, its just more efficient time management. Think of it as meta-gaming.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fix Lag Is this supposed to be some kind of half-witty sarcasm or an advertisement for buying CCP's most expensive subscription option?
It really wasn't meant for either of those things. I was just pondering why someone grinds away at this game like their rent depends on it for a fraction of what they would traditionally make.
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Zahira Wrath
Amarr Dominion Strategic
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mortania The man has a point.
Yeah no kidding. Came in expecting a troll, came out agreeing.
Woah ... I musta taken the red pill!
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Akira Samposeppa
Gallente Arthashastra
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:39:00 -
[11]
Hmm..well in my country 5$ an hour is considered a pretty good money... So grinding is still better than paying 35# with a 3$ an hour job
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:41:00 -
[12]
Its simple really.
In some countries, it is illegal to have two jobs due to working contracts.
So, given that i already have a good paying job, say , at 1b isk/hour, i cant push my wage by "working a second job" , because it is illegal. The potential gain in salary is offset by my crushing stress that i take, and also the risk of getting fired for breach in contract, also bad for my own track record.
So. Continuing from there given that i already have a good paying job, i cant possible make another 1b isk/hour. at all.
the only way to do so, is by doing hardcore mission running, mining, or wateva eve things that you do, so that on top of my income, i can earn more in a per month basis.
On top of that, we get to spam help and ships channel and have fun, while socialising with the corp and do some pew pew if we wanted to.
TLDR: To some, it is illegal to hold a second job. Hence, you cant "work" to earn more money on top of what you are entitled to in your workplace. Hence even if the isk earned is lower then the isk/hour obtained from buying a card, it is still an improvement to the potential isk per month earned in real life.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:44:00 -
[13]
Of course if everyone did this the price of PLEX's would drop from oversupply. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
sableye
principle of motion
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Posted - 2011.04.20 02:53:00 -
[14]
Edited by: sableye on 20/04/2011 02:53:16 I've worked out I'd be alot better buying currency and working in RL, but i actually enjoy playing the GAME eve. ----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!!
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: death klokk on 20/04/2011 03:16:22 Wow, lots of great responses. I was half expecting to get trolled here, but am pleasantly surprised. So far from what i've gathered from responses is that some people in fact do GTC their way up, some can't because of reasons outside of their control, and others actually make less irl than in the game which is understandable depending on what part of the world you live in. (perhaps they should do RMTs for supplement income)? jkn of course. Oh, and of course the professor has a point about 35$/hr being more than what the avg citizen makes, but even then earning half of that would still put you ahead of the in game grind. I actually work an hour or 2 extra a week soley for EVE. It sounds sad at first, but then again I am much more :shrug: when i lose my pimp ship because it only cost me a few hours of my life as opposed to a few days/weeks of my life which would srsly make me never venture out of highsec or emoragequit the game entirely.
edit: Afaik you cannot convert 60day GTCs to (2) 30 day plexes.
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Methesda
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:35:00 -
[16]
If you want to buy it then fair enough.
To me Eve is at it's heart a role playing game. Whilst I am fine with the idea that some people just want to pvp, to me the thing that makes PVP worthwhile is the high stakes that follow having to earn the isk the slow way. Rather than simply saying to myself 'well this was five minutes work in the real world' I tell myself that this was an hour or two's work in the eve-world. I wonder how long I would last if I could simply was able to throw ships into PVP without my pulse-rate lifting.
That said, I've bought/sold GTC in the past, it's just not my main source of income. Now and again I simply decide I want to try a risky venture, and put all on it, and it's nice to know that I have a backup if it all goes horribly wrong.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Methesda If you want to buy it then fair enough.
To me Eve is at it's heart a role playing game. Whilst I am fine with the idea that some people just want to pvp, to me the thing that makes PVP worthwhile is the high stakes that follow having to earn the isk the slow way. Rather than simply saying to myself 'well this was five minutes work in the real world' I tell myself that this was an hour or two's work in the eve-world. I wonder how long I would last if I could simply was able to throw ships into PVP without my pulse-rate lifting.
That said, I've bought/sold GTC in the past, it's just not my main source of income. Now and again I simply decide I want to try a risky venture, and put all on it, and it's nice to know that I have a backup if it all goes horribly wrong.
You have a point, but the counterargument to that is that most people, "MOST", don't just throw their money away. Regardless of whether it cost them a minute of work or a month's worth of work. Its why most people don't buy lottery tickets or gamble at all. While i agree that risk losing something of value raises your pulse rate, i'd have to guess that 90% of the reason your pulse is even raised is due to the conflict itself. If i'm flying around in my free velator and someone locks me and starts firing i scramble to avoid dying. In console games like COD or gears of war, you risk nothing at all, but I've often found myself with sweaty palms after an intense match of team deathmatch.
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Yanshee OP has a point. Fair enough if you actually enjoy the grinding process...you strange individuals. But when EVE ever becomes a chore, the whole: "I can't PVP, I've got to keep grinding Sanctums (oh no wait) to pay for this month's subscription"... do some damn overtime. Funding with PLEX isn't cheating, its just more efficient time management. Think of it as meta-gaming.
"Sorry, honey, I can't make it home until dinner. I'm working overtime so I can pay for the game. Oh, and btw. when I come home I'll just play the game, so I didn't work for nothing."
That'll end well.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.04.20 03:59:00 -
[19]
I always find it fascinating when RL money is traded for virtual property and then gambled. Yes buying plex is similar to gambling. There is a definite risk reward system implemented, for example you could buy GTC and buy faction fitted ships, you might win against others and make even more ISK OR you might die horribly and poof 35 bucks down the drain.
Very similar pattern to gambling IMHO. Same adrenaline rush when you loot other people ships, instead of fighting with numbers you deal red bar damage. It's just a substitute but the mechanics are almost the same.
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Yanshee
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:07:00 -
[20]
Originally by: The Offerer
"Sorry, honey, I can't make it home until dinner. I'm working overtime so I can pay for the game. Oh, and btw. when I come home I'll just play the game, so I didn't work for nothing."
That'll end well.
If you're really that stony broke that you do need to put in overtime just to grab some easy ISK then it's got to be unfortunate. Worse, if your missus has a problem with you putting in a few extra hours to spend on something you enjoy then you need a new one. I wasn't saying work double shifts, was just saying that the time investment is minimal for most of us to earn the GTC money compared to hours of grinding in game.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: cyndrogen I always find it fascinating when RL money is traded for virtual property and then gambled. Yes buying plex is similar to gambling. There is a definite risk reward system implemented, for example you could buy GTC and buy faction fitted ships, you might win against others and make even more ISK OR you might die horribly and poof 35 bucks down the drain.
Very similar pattern to gambling IMHO. Same adrenaline rush when you loot other people ships, instead of fighting with numbers you deal red bar damage. It's just a substitute but the mechanics are almost the same.
Thats a good way of looking at it actually. I once bought a GTC simply because i wanted a navy issue scorp and a couple faction mods on it. Took it out on roams, actually killed a few faction ships with it before dying horribly to 2 golems. The entire experience was rather exhilarating, but afterwards I stopped being so reckless. yeah it cost me next to nothing, but in the end it was equivalent to a string of bad gambles.
To the other guy with the wife scenario. Imagine if you will, staying late one night at work so u could gtc a few billion to the dissatisfaction of your wife. Now imagine the same wife's feelings, who was ****ed her husband worked late one night, if he spent weeks ignoring her while grinding away in game. One scenario probably ends in divorce and i'm pretty sure its not the one where said husband spent a few extra hours at work.
To be clear, the thread originally started seeking answers as to "WHY" people A) instead of B) if maximum isk/hr was the goal. Nothing more or less.
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Jonathan Malcom
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:30:00 -
[22]
I know it's sactioned by CCP and all, but spending real money for ISK just feels like cheating to me. vOv
I have no problem with other people doing it. That's just not how I want to play my game.
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Calathea Sata
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:32:00 -
[23]
A perfectly illustrated example of EVE IS REALÖ
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The Antiquarian
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:35:00 -
[24]
I agree. I might not be as talented as those folks in EVE who can create a trillion ISK out of initial 1 ISK investment. Hence, the use of PLEX to manage my time more wisely and efficiently =)
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Rumple Fourskin
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:48:00 -
[25]
I pay for my accounts with real money and I make all my iskies passively.
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xxHELGAxx
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: The Antiquarian Edited by: The Antiquarian on 20/04/2011 04:39:52
I agree. I might not be as talented as those folks in EVE who can create a trillion ISK out of initial 1 ISK investment. Hence, the use of PLEX to manage my time more wisely and efficiently since I am far more talented at generating actual United States Dollars than Interstellar Kredits. =)
And lets not forget, these are disposable income we are talking about.
Some people like to spend extra money to get the HBO channel. Others like to spend the money for the monthly subscription of p000rn. I just spend it to buy PLEX to manage my time more efficiently. Nothing wrong with it. No harms done to anyone. CCP is happy. I am happy. We are all happy!
This smiley is not happy
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Baneken
Gallente The New Knighthood Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.04.20 04:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Baneken on 20/04/2011 04:56:06 Average minimum pay is somewhere around 7,5-9Ç/hour depending so assuming your main source of income is flipping burgers that's about a full day of work.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
rinse/repeat.
It's still microtransactions, be it that the profit is for the in-game plex buyer, it's not really very different from buying ships and stuff for IRL money. Personally I'm not in favour of games where you can buy your in-game financial success such a legitimate way as in EVE. Personally I wished they never invented plex at all.
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Jireel
CANUCK ENGINERING Fade 2 Black
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom I know it's sactioned by CCP and all, but spending real money for ISK just feels like cheating to me. vOv
I have no problem with other people doing it. That's just not how I want to play my game.
Same here. I could do that easily, but I want to play the game, not buy my way through.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
rinse/repeat.
It's still microtransactions, be it that the profit is for the in-game plex buyer, it's not really very different from buying ships and stuff for IRL money. Personally I'm not in favour of games where you can buy your in-game financial success such a legitimate way as in EVE. Personally I wished they never invented plex at all.
Well to be fair, CCP wasn't getting any of the RMT action. Lets keep it real. RMTs for isk were happening already and still do even with the implementation of the GTC for isk system. If they were to take it away tomorrow, they would cut their incomes resulting in less money for development (lol) , less money for server upgrades , etc etc.. In the end, i think they had to do it. Im glad they did though.
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Mortania
Minmatar Kinetic Cartel
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:32:00 -
[31]
I'll go one further, I think they're fools for not doing microtransactions/RMT. Many people have more money than time (not everyone). These people will always value spending money over spending time. Which is, as we're discussing, completely reasonable.
I'm not sure why they're leaving so much money on the table.
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OFFICERoftheLawL
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mortania I'll go one further, I think they're fools for not doing microtransactions/RMT. Many people have more money than time (not everyone). These people will always value spending money over spending time. Which is, as we're discussing, completely reasonable.
I'm not sure why they're leaving so much money on the table.
thats a pretty solid question. The whine from the section 8 crew would be epic. However, following the old saying "if you can't beat them, join them". They would probably eliminate the botting and illegal RMTs as they would be forced to bring their prices lower than CCP to even entice someone to do something that could get their account banned, which would shrink their profit margin even more. It could however, **** off alot of people and do more harm than good in the long run.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:43:00 -
[33]
wtb job I can work at 23/7, and not pay ridiculous amounts of tax. Oh wait they don't exist you ****ing ******
...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: death klokk Well to be fair, CCP wasn't getting any of the RMT action. Lets keep it real. RMTs for isk were happening already and still do even with the implementation of the GTC for isk system. If they were to take it away tomorrow, they would cut their incomes resulting in less money for development (lol) , less money for server upgrades , etc etc.. In the end, i think they had to do it. Im glad they did though.
I don't think they had to do it, they were just being pragmatic - after all, what other game allows this? Effectually the result is that everyone engages in microtransactions and character trade and pays CCP `taxes` for it.
I'd rather that they made more money by improving the game and make it more attractive for new players. As someone said, EVE may have 120k customers who all have multiple alt/botting accounts instead of 360k subscribers.
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Mortania
Minmatar Kinetic Cartel
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:51:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling As someone said, EVE may have 120k customers who all have multiple alt/botting accounts instead of 360k subscribers.
I suspect this is very close to true. I believe the average number of accounts for people, who go past 14 days, is close to or over 2. Just read the forums, it is ASSUMED that you will have an alt for dealing with afk cloakers, or scouting for a freighter run, or running ore for your orca op, or whatever. For each person that I know that only runs one account I know another that runs 4. Isn't it common advice that 3 accounts running PI is the right amount to make the PLEX numbers work? There was another person in a thread on the front page right now who peaked at 8. My own peak was around that as well.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2011.04.20 05:55:00 -
[36]
Yes, please do as OP says, PLEX prices are a bit too high for my liking. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
McRoll
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.20 07:14:00 -
[37]
You forget some things in your considerations, OP:
1)If you dont make money ingame for your shiny ships, the "felt" value of your ships is next to nothing, because you worked half an hour for it IRL. If you grinded for many hours to buy said ship, it has far more value to you because you know that you "worked" for it.
2)The more people sell PLEX, the more ISK is accumulated in people's wallets, rendering many ships useless because nobody would fly T1 if he could just sell a couple of PLEX and fly around in T2 or faction BS all the time. Getting ISK via PLEX is way easier than making ISK with professions ingame, leading to point 3.
3)Because of the easy way of selling PLEX, many ingame options are rendered useless. Careers and ways of playing like hauling, salvaging or ninja- salvaging, exploration, ratting, mining etc. are rendered less profitable or outright useless because of low-income compared to selling PLEX. (Yes i know that mining and ratting is mostly rendered useless by botting)
4)Having lots of ISK actually makes the game more dull in my opinion. If you dont care for the value of your ingame assets, the game simply gets boring. What makes the game interesting and exciting for me is actually the combination of PvP and aquiring wealth and managing my assets. This involves thinking of how and where make my ISK and how and on what I spend them on. Makes the options ingame more versatile instead of undocking, getting blown up, dock, buy another expendable vessel, rinse and repeat.
5)When people can acquire lots of ISK easily, having intended "high-end" ships becomes not an option but a necessity. If you cannot afford them, you simply have lost, because most players fly them. So you are required to either bot or sell PLEX to remain competitive.
The only thing I agree with you is that grinding for ISK for weeks and wasting your time not having fun is stupid. The problem is that most people seem not to be able to have fun with less than perfect skills, ships and billions of ISK. They always want to be the best and this is why they cheat, bot, and get those advantages by any means necessary. In doing so, they actually ruin the game for themselves by limiting it to a "grind of mindless PvP" instead of using all the options the game has to offer.
Balance is everything, it's fine when some people sell PLEX or GTC, but if everybody would jump on this train, this would quickly break the game I believe.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.20 07:22:00 -
[38]
Actualy a couple of "games" and services allow you to basicaly buy-sell with some kind of mechanism for RMT transactions, from the blatant (Lindex) and SOEs "Live gamer" to the oddly restricted Plex system of Eve
heck Even WoW has a psudo rmt thing going on now with thoes trading cards that have ingame item codes that sell on Ebay.
.End of line.
If your too paranoid to play EvE. . . ...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE ----------------
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Schopkar
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Posted - 2011.04.20 07:43:00 -
[39]
What fascinates me the most are those that consider it free play if you pay by ISK grinding. I shouldn't complain though since I will happily pay for ISK whenever I need it. Flying all the shiny ships and having great amounts of ISK isn't a goal in itself for me. As others have mentioned, I'm motivated by other stuff. I'm not that much into PvP which leaves me with the PvE options. Basically all those are of interest to me whether it is mining, trading, hauling or w/e. The mission for me is never the best ISK/hr, ingame play can never beat what I get on a paycheck.
Just to give an example, when mining my goal might be more of the kind to setup efficient operations for a group of people or a corp. Organizing hauling, refining, selling and all that to increase general efficiency is what interests me in that case. The fact that I'm pulling in some ISK on the side is more of a secondary objective. Those kind of ops require skills, and that's where the GTC come in handy. Grinding with crappy mining ships just to get to the part I want to explore doesn't seem like a good option to me.
In general, when I'm all set with my current activities I usually make enough ISK to at least fill my ingame needs. Sometimes I get enough to pay for accounts, sometimes I need to chip in money for that. Main point is that GTC allows me to focus on what I consider fun instead of forcing me to do boring stuff. I would most likely quit the game if I was forced to play under to harsh conditions.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.20 07:44:00 -
[40]
ok guys, one last time*
ever since they allowed you to buy Gametime from them and trade it to other players for isk, you have been playing a free to play microtransaction game.
they have finaly after all this time announced something that some of us have been waiting for them to do for literaly years now when they announced that the "central bank" would buy and sell plex for isk.
well frankly I call BS on the "sell Plex for isk" part of that. frankly they could simply do other things that act as ISK sinks without addint in the bookkeeping nightmare that seeling Plex for ISK would be for them. but frankly they would be total idiots to not buy plex for isk, just set the sinks to overdrain the economy, heck they can probably do it without anyone realy noticeing now.
lets be blunt, the new features in the future? I suspect that roughly half will be npc suplied on some level, (clothing dies for just one item, furnature for player houseing, rent for player houseing, and so on... oops more and more ISK sinks! too may isk sinks = need for CCP to step in and buy up all thoes Plexies bloating the market, and Plexes that CCP buys off the market = Cash flowing from the liability side of the legers and into there checking accounts.)
*Yes I know, Im kidding myself.
.End of line.
If your too paranoid to play EvE. . . ...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE ----------------
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.20 07:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
tl;dr: Buy GTCs, your time is worth more than 5$ an hour... i think.
we aren't in the USA... we get 700 per month, single, finance and investment, BA MA in banking...
in SOVIET RUSSIA USD EARNS YOU
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: McRoll You forget some things in your considerations, OP: ...
1. a dollar earned is dollar saved - i agree
2. i disagree here. I know a couple top 50 BC pilots that regularly fly t2 fitted t1 ships. Many corps run ops they expect to lose everything on and tell everyone to fit cheap because they know they'll be coming back in pods. Alot of people fly t1 ships because of the insurance payout will help recoup their losses regardless of how much isk they have.
3. I disagree here. If everyone started selling plex. Careers like mining and salvaging will see an increase in payout. If everyone sold plex, who's gonna build the ships/mods they want to buy? Where will the minerals come from? Where will the salvage to produce rigs come from? Supply and demand. If everyone quit mining tonight, eve mineral prices would skyrocket due to lack of supply and increase in demand.
4. I partially disagree here. Yes, people would be more intent on flying around blowing things up, getting blown up rinse and repeating all night. However, killboard stat junkies still won't want to clutter their killboards with unnecessary losses. Some of the most frugal people i know irl, make 10x as much money as I do because people simply just don't throw away their money, regardless of how hard they worked for it. People may be inclined to do riskier things with their ships, sure, but is that a bad thing? More people frequenting low-sec & 0.0 seems ok with me.
5. This is absolute false. With this logic, newbies shouldn't bother with the game because even though they can afford the ship; They lack the skills necessary to fly them effectively making them useless when its a known fact that even the lowest skilled rookie pilot in a t1 frig has his uses as a scout/tackle whatever.
you have points that many will agree with, but there still are counters to them. I think what holds this game back from getting millions of subs is the epic grind and harsh consequences. Don't get me wrong, I love that about the game and wouldn't change a thing, but someone like myself simply can't be bothered grinding away for hours/days/weeks for something that I can lose in a split second.
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Flynn Fetladral
Caldari BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:12:00 -
[43]
Good post Grinding for isk for the most part is boring as feck. And detracts from the things that are fun. If everyone was buying PLEX and selling it, the PLEX market would go down the toilet though.
Follow Flynn on Twitter |
JitaBUGz TheGreat
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:15:00 -
[44]
Plex/GTC for isk has ruined some aspects of eve. Take for instance Pirating. I have been in a few pirate corps in my time in eve. But recently I do not eve bother anymore. They are all gate gankers(fun but not pirating), the days of ransoming have ended with the ease of buying plex.
Some one also mentioned the personal worth of a ship, with plex-there is none. Back when I saved up for my Dramiel, and DareDevil. They lasted forever(to this day accually). But the few i have bought with plex isk have burned in a untearfull mindless pvp rampages...lol.
For me, buying plex is no problem when it comes to the bank account. The time I did buy plex kind of ruined my fun for a while, the thrill of pvp really left. I for one am not a huge fan of mission grinding, and am less of a fan of 0.0 grinding. But that is part of the game, and in a game were pvp is thought out, planned, and has to be executed in a not so half ass way, earning a ship makes u think twice about what you are about to do.
But I will thank plex for the one guy that brought about 4 navy fit/navy domis through our gate in about 20 minutes, and to all the rest of you for flying those nicely fit ships into my Friday nite t1 rifter blog-fear the noob train...lol
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Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:26:00 -
[45]
Or get a bot - apparently they're still legal in game? Or..
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Wacktopia Or get a bot - apparently they're still legal in game? Or..
At least alot cheaper, a decent bot costs like what, 15 dollar or so? Sure you need to spend some time setting it up, but if you are lazy just either set it in npc space or rent somewhere with bounties, and once in a while your main can come pickup faction/officer stuff.
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McRoll
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:42:00 -
[47]
Originally by: death klokk
Originally by: McRoll You forget some things in your considerations, OP: ...
2. i disagree here. I know a couple top 50 BC pilots that regularly fly t2 fitted t1 ships. Many corps run ops they expect to lose everything on and tell everyone to fit cheap because they know they'll be coming back in pods. Alot of people fly t1 ships because of the insurance payout will help recoup their losses regardless of how much isk they have.
This might be true for certain 0.0 corps and residents. In high and lowsec however, the focus would switch more towards the expensive stuff though. Many pirates are already flying faction BS, their heads stuffed with slaves and crystals, I know because I was in such a corp until recently. ISK play no role at all for them. (Look up Diamond Dog and his officer fitted smartbomb Rokh on battleclinic). Kinda boring, for me at least.
Originally by: death klokk
3. I disagree here. If everyone started selling plex. Careers like mining and salvaging will see an increase in payout. If everyone sold plex, who's gonna build the ships/mods they want to buy? Where will the minerals come from? Where will the salvage to produce rigs come from? Supply and demand. If everyone quit mining tonight, eve mineral prices would skyrocket due to lack of supply and increase in demand.
Mined minerals will come through botting (as its dealth with now anyway). Im not sure but bots can salvage as well, can't they? Manufacturing can be easily be done by alts, who put the botted minerals to use. This wouldnt have that much impact at all I believe, simply a matter of acquiring a bot or another alt who rat and manufacture for you and are paid via PLEX, which would be on market in abundance.
Originally by: death klokk
5. This is absolute false. With this logic, newbies shouldn't bother with the game because even though they can afford the ship; They lack the skills necessary to fly them effectively making them useless when its a known fact that even the lowest skilled rookie pilot in a t1 frig has his uses as a scout/tackle whatever.
You can offset lacking skills to some degree with ISK, by bying implants and using faction mods and flying better ships in general. Also, the new players see everyone flying around in shinies and want do do so as well. Because they don't want to wait as long or make the amount of ISK ingame, they either start selling PLEX or bot.
Originally by: death klokk
you have points that many will agree with, but there still are counters to them. I think what holds this game back from getting millions of subs is the epic grind and harsh consequences. Don't get me wrong, I love that about the game and wouldn't change a thing, but someone like myself simply can't be bothered grinding away for hours/days/weeks for something that I can lose in a split second.
That depends on whether you see acquiring ISK as a grind. Herein lies the problem, many players can't imagine a way of making ISK besides ratting or doing 4's. This is ofc very repetitive and boring, but there are so many other ways of making ISK which can be fun or at least less repetitive. Some of those possibilities are rendered useless because of their relatively low yield compared to the amount of ISK ingame and the easiness to acquire ISK via PLEX.
Believe it or not but I at least have fun making ISK ingame. Its just that I do not only grind missions but have a mixed income from passive and active sources. Doing different things is fun, I mix PvE and PvP and this keeps the game fresh for me.
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ZZZu Khaaaarhg
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Posted - 2011.04.20 08:53:00 -
[48]
What are you talking about? I "earn" $3 per hour irl and that's far from the lowest on this planet.
Not whole world lives by american standards.
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clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.20 09:37:00 -
[49]
PLEX is nothing else than CCP sanctioned RMT. Don't get me wrong, i rather see that CCP get the $$$ than f.i. account hackers. In a way it's kind of hypocrytical that CCP is condemning RMT as this thread is a good example of how RMT is ruining the game.
If you buy PLEXes from CCP, other than for startup costs, wth does isk even mean? It removes all incentives to work smarter and all feeling of progress is useless.
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McRoll
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.20 09:41:00 -
[50]
Originally by: clixor
If you buy PLEXes from CCP, other than for startup costs, what does isk even mean? It removes all incentives to work smarter and all feeling of progress is useless.
Pretty much what I was trying to explain put in a single sentence.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.04.20 09:44:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom I know it's sactioned by CCP and all, but spending real money for ISK just feels like cheating to me. vOv
I have no problem with other people doing it. That's just not how I want to play my game.
Heh, same. I happily pay my sub with real money, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of buying myself in-game shinies.
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Gavjack Bunk
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.04.20 09:47:00 -
[52]
The ISK/Hour ratio is falsely represented. It assumes that all money earned in RL is available for PLEX. Some people might spend every last penny they earn on PLEX, but I don't think it's many.
I'm fortunate enough to safely assume I'm one of the top 5% RL rich Eve players, but I'll be god dammed if any more than the bare minimum is heading Eve's way. I have many vices to pay for and Eve has to compete with those. So my actual RL earnings translated into ISK are roughly 0.1m isk / hour, for a guess.
Perhaps if Eve got really great and ISK so hard to come buy, I might actually increase that spend, but I don't think either of those things is going to happen any time soon.
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Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.04.20 10:02:00 -
[53]
I'm in a western europe country, work as an engineer and I don't earn nearly 35 dollars per hour. You have to realize that in most countries, even though you EARN less, you also PAY a lot less than in the US. So our wages are less but we don't pay lots of cash for health care, children going to school, etc etc. This doesn't mean our general wealth level is different, but it does mean that your balance is quite off for us.
I still earn more money in my real job than I do in Eve (even though I live in high end w-space and probably earn more isk than most people), but it does make the difference a lot less. So in my case I'd rather just play the game. It will also greatly depend on the kind of grinding you do though. Ours is a team effort which makes it better. If I was stuck with level 4 missions in highsec, I would consider buying GTC's.
Then there's also the argument of 'it's a roleplaying game' for me, I like to have earned the stuff that I own ingame by ingame means, not just buying my way into it.
--- Drykor - AHARM |
clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.20 10:16:00 -
[54]
Why is RL wages even a factor?
Let me spell it out for you guys:
WE ARE PLAYING A COMPUTER GAME, you're supposed to have fun, make friends and do like.. whatever you want.
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Potato IQ
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Posted - 2011.04.20 10:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: clixor
If you buy PLEXes from CCP, other than for startup costs, wth does isk even mean? It removes all incentives to work smarter and all feeling of progress is worthless
Fixed as was nearly there
The OPÆs arrogant attitude on how people should earn RL money aside, his arguments are fairly reasonable but flawed. Apart from the PvP whQres that donÆt have the ability to buy the next ship without this means, the spoilt child attitude of now now now that selling PLEX offers simply dilutes the gaming experience and offers less value than those that spend time developing into the game. Being able to buy your shinny takes little effort for the smart pilot who does his research and puts in the time as the fruits will come. Selling PLEX is simply lazy in most cases
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.20 11:13:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Wacktopia Or get a bot - apparently they're still legal in game? Or..
Yes.
/me goes back to being afk in a macro system, where the same 6 "players" rat 23 hours a day. ----------------------------------------
Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with. |
Michael J Fox
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Posted - 2011.04.20 11:29:00 -
[57]
wow! OP has fixed the planet well done OP!
let me add a few pointers to your list:
0.1 Find country that pays reasonable wage. 0.2 Find job that pays reasonable wage. 0.3 realise that education costs a considerable sum of money. 0.4 take less good job to pay for education. 0.5 realise that less good job only just covers the cost of living. 0.6 realise that whilst working to pay for education you have no time to be educated go to 1
frickin idiots like OP annoy me.
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Kern Hotha
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Posted - 2011.04.20 11:39:00 -
[58]
It's easy to make isk in Eve (trivially easy with incursions now). I have plenty of disposable income but I don't think the quality and direction of Eve are worth paying for, so I'm quite happy that there are people willing to spend real money to sell PLEXs on the market. It seems like we both win here. --- "The data does not support that polished quality sells better than new features." -Nathan Richardsson, Senior Producer at CCP |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.20 11:42:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Swynet on 20/04/2011 11:46:25
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
rinse/repeat.
Everyday I come across a thread where someone asks or boasts about earning 80-100mil isk per hour. Now mind you, some people PVE for reasons other than trying to maximize their in-game wealth as fast as possible (IE: running lvl 5s with friends while having a good time on vent/ts, or being constructive by mining while watching your favorite tv program) and if you fall into that category of casual player, then you can move on to the next topic. However, I've always wondered why people spend so much time grinding their way to capital ships, faction fitted ships..etc etc at a snail's pace. Not everyone agrees with what I will say, but most will agree that time=money. The thing about time is that its universal. Time spent in game could be time spent doing something more profitable IRL.
GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work. 100mil isk an hour grinding L4s or plexing whatever effectively translates into 5$ an hour. That number gets even lower if your not blitzing said missions in a pimped out golem. I don't really know of anyone that would work 7hrs a day for 35$. Heck, current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that. When I first started playing EvE a few years ago, I would skip out of work early so I could get home and play. That is, until i realized how I was lowering the value of my time. It amazes me how many people grind all night for a few hundred million and complain about how much of a chore or "like a 2nd job" it is to play.
So unless you grind isk because your RL income is driven from RMTs from game, or you're a child who can't work; Is your time really worth 5$ an hour? If it is, see step 1.
Once liberated from the 'boring' aspects of the game and the fear of losing your 20mil fit rifter, you'll find a new found love for the game.
flame on.
tl;dr: Buy GTCs, your time is worth more than 5$ an hour... i think.
The only problem I can see in you post is that you don't have point 1 - Get an education.
Why? - If you had it you should known by now there are other places than US in this planets, other populations speaking other languages, living differently, having their own economy.
The only good thing you ever said is that TIME IS MONEY and that one is for true universal. I have my own company so yes I'm pretty aware of that, by the way I would advise you to read some economics and geopolitics specialised press. You'd finally get some education and maybe understand there are other places around this planet.
Let me learn you something: educated doesn't means intelligent, you just proved it. ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
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Posted - 2011.04.20 11:56:00 -
[60]
Hmmm, selling plex for ISK for me has been one of those things that get me pondering. If people don't mind a bit of text feel free to read onwards.
This is not as full as it could be because of character limits. I can't be bothered to post a 2nd post so if decent replies actually happen (which TBH I'm not hopeful of in this forum) then I'll flesh out responses.
The question I ask is this, if you need to buy plex and sell it in game to play the way you want it to play then surely this is effectively raising your subscription cost to silly amounts? If as the OP says the fun part of the game is out where you lose ships and PVP then that means the rest of it is not fun at all, again according to the OP.
The argument that to pvp these days you need more ISK than you can generate necessitating the purchase of GTC to sell as plex rather than waste time means that many PVPers that do so are paying a very high premium for their monthly gaming fix. Obviously.
By implying that those that do not do this are not having fun it means a) people are honestly doing something they hate just to do a little fun or b) CCP have engineered this scenario or c) people have fun doing things that would seem dull to others.
It's a mixture but the important one to consider is B. It is in CCP's best interest to generate a situation where the ISK sink massively outweighs in game income for most players. Yes some can happily pay for many accounts with their income now, but can a year long player? If they need 2 accounts which could be argued for serious PVP they do (scouting alts, probe alts etc) then thats ú30 a month already. Now lets buy 4 plex to sell a month. Another ú50.
ú80 a month? even if its only 2 plex its still ú55 a month.
CCP would argue that you don't need to play like that but the competitive side of the game means that if some do it, then to remain competitive in the area of your choosing you must do it, or have means to negate the benefits of large amounts of ISK and multiple accounts (which few have been able to do otherwise it would be done that way).
This is not an anti CCP post btw.
Now I say CCP engineered this because they either have by direct action (making sure it's how people must play) or by not changing something to ensure that ISK does not equal competitive advantage. Either way, if that is the situation EVE is in then it's been engineered.
The only problem I have at all so far is that if it has been engineered then this game should not be advertised without micro transactions being a significant part of the game.
This is why CCP does not say the end game is null sec or anything else. By our own sandbox play-style we as players decide our fate and provide perfect cover for CCP's argument (if it's engineered) that players do as they will and it's by choice we pay so much.
That's because we do. Simple really, we are competitive gamers. We want to succeed in our goals be that null sec strategists, corp thieves or pvp monsters. Those that chose to take the PVP path are either forced to spend hours on alt accounts doing something they dislike or buy ISK.
The psychology is really very simple and if it were planned (again I share nothing of my opinion on this) then there is a certain beauty to it's simplicity.
We as players force ourselves to constantly look for that competitive edge which then over time becomes the norm restarting the whole process again. Timer also plays a massive part in this game as ability to generate ISK grows exponentially as your character get's older. This devalues ISK to older players and makes it harder for newer ones to get into an even keel.
We apply social pressure to ourselves in this very forum similarly to the real world and women's beauty. ISK = awesome. Good Killboard = awesome. Subscribe to this then you get sucked into a world in game where you won't be good enough for a long time. Why not fix that with buying a character and some ISK? it's only a few hundred pounds....
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Thallus Tage
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Posted - 2011.04.20 12:01:00 -
[61]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
rinse/repeat.
Everyday I come across a thread where someone asks or boasts about earning 80-100mil isk per hour. Now mind you, some people PVE for reasons other than trying to maximize their in-game wealth as fast as possible (IE: running lvl 5s with friends while having a good time on vent/ts, or being constructive by mining while watching your favorite tv program) and if you fall into that category of casual player, then you can move on to the next topic. However, I've always wondered why people spend so much time grinding their way to capital ships, faction fitted ships..etc etc at a snail's pace. Not everyone agrees with what I will say, but most will agree that time=money. The thing about time is that its universal. Time spent in game could be time spent doing something more profitable IRL.
GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work. 100mil isk an hour grinding L4s or plexing whatever effectively translates into 5$ an hour. That number gets even lower if your not blitzing said missions in a pimped out golem. I don't really know of anyone that would work 7hrs a day for 35$. Heck, current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that. When I first started playing EvE a few years ago, I would skip out of work early so I could get home and play. That is, until i realized how I was lowering the value of my time. It amazes me how many people grind all night for a few hundred million and complain about how much of a chore or "like a 2nd job" it is to play.
So unless you grind isk because your RL income is driven from RMTs from game, or you're a child who can't work; Is your time really worth 5$ an hour? If it is, see step 1.
Once liberated from the 'boring' aspects of the game and the fear of losing your 20mil fit rifter, you'll find a new found love for the game.
flame on.
tl;dr: Buy GTCs, your time is worth more than 5$ an hour... i think.
Nice try CCP, nice try. /tips hat.
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.20 12:11:00 -
[62]
yeah, it makes you think huh. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN! |
Jame Jarl Retief
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Posted - 2011.04.20 12:20:00 -
[63]
OP,
As a gamer, I find posts like this deeply disturbing. When a game feels "like a 2nd job", you QUIT that game! Any sane person would. You do NOT keep throwing money at it because your time is worth more than $5/hr. Try to remember that EVE is a GAME. It is meant to be FUN. This is your ENTERTAINMENT dollars! It's you and people like you paying developers for games that are grindy, unfun and in general feel like a 2nd job that are the reason for the downfall of gaming. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but it's how I feel about it.
The moment the game starts feeling like a 2nd job, I drop it like last week's garbage. And I strongly urge everyone else to do the same. It's the only way to bring quality entertainment back to gaming, instead of grindy games, by design, to make you pay more to actually have fun.
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Morgan Polaris
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Posted - 2011.04.20 12:23:00 -
[64]
As someone with an education should know, if no one's grinding, you'd be lucky if selling PLEX even gets you a 100 mil.
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anonstudbius
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Posted - 2011.04.20 12:29:00 -
[65]
i just let this in here because some ppl are a bit stupid also lol at OP
here is how you need to do this
you can send me isk for this tip
1 make a eve fan site 2 join ccp affiliation program 3 get money from ccp buy gtc pay sub |
Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
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Posted - 2011.04.20 12:44:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Morgan Polaris As someone with an education should know, if no one's grinding, you'd be lucky if selling PLEX even gets you a 100 mil.
I'm no student of economics but I am educated if that helps.
There will always be grinding because non pvpers (carebears?) outweigh the pvpers already and they do it because many prefer playing that way.
That said if there was no grinding and people only bought plex then it means very few are creating materials. Once reserves go then you'll quickly see many people earning ISK hand over fist without paying for plex because they'll shift to creating those materials and it'll be worth it time wise to do so. You know this I assume and so do a few others as its what's keeping the plex market where it is.
My thoughts were based purely on people who believe the only way to have fun in this game is pvp and pay for plex to fund it. My argument is that if that IS the only way to have fun then the only people having fun in this game are paying a big premium to do so. Everyone else is either grinding for hours to achieve enough ISK to compete or they have set themselves up already and can afford the losses. The former is just a waste and anyone with sense would be buying plex (thus my engineered situation comments). In the case of the latter then there are in reality so few that can do this (I suspect, no proof as yet) without putting hours in it's a meaningless statistic.
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Dr Offensive
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Posted - 2011.04.20 13:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk The ISK/Hour ratio is falsely represented. It assumes that all money earned in RL is available for PLEX. Some people might spend every last penny they earn on PLEX, but I don't think it's many.
I'm fortunate enough to safely assume I'm one of the top 5% RL rich Eve players, but I'll be god dammed if any more than the bare minimum is heading Eve's way. I have many vices to pay for and Eve has to compete with those. So my actual RL earnings translated into ISK are roughly 0.1m isk / hour, for a guess.
Perhaps if Eve got really great and ISK so hard to come buy, I might actually increase that spend, but I don't think either of those things is going to happen any time soon.
I agree with that, $35 is well above average in Scotland but everything is free -
School, University, Doctors, Hospitals, Prescriptions, Dentistry(well you pay a small contribution for that, maybe $15 for a checkup and a filling or something), Drug Rehabilitation, Alcohol(oh wait that last one was in a dream)
They say being unemployed is a career choice!
This is the price the English must pay to stop us moaning about everything and keep us happy
Even then $35 P/H is not unreasonable for a GOOD degree from a GOOD uni.
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Killer Gandry
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.20 13:01:00 -
[68]
Some people don't have the luxury to decide to put more than the monthly subsciption into the game.
This isn't always education only dependant. Other circumstances can can lead to not being able to put more than the subscription into the game, hence the only thing left to make ISK ingame is grind, trade, research, build etc.
Next to that the whole PLEX for ISK system is something which just shows again that there is a serious off balance. Those that have will always be favoured over those that haven't.
Like the saying goes. The devil always craps on the biggest pile.
Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life. |
hired goon
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Posted - 2011.04.20 13:15:00 -
[69]
Good, high quality, pragmatic & controversial post. Thanks OP.
However you miss one thing. Though the Eve grind is a lowly paid job, it is also a job in which you can work from home chillaxing with a beer and a smoke, while chatting to friends and watching a movie, very low responsibility, commitment and effort.
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Fredfredbug4
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.20 15:18:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Fredfredbug4 on 20/04/2011 15:21:02 I agree with you completely. The problem though is inflation. Not in real life but in the game. If everyone starts getting money from time codes there will be a lot of of PLEX in the market. As a result the prices will drop.
If only a handful of people do this like they do now. It's fine, but if your encouraging the majority of the EVE playerbase to do this, the strategy backfires. THe more people doing this the less PLEX will cost.
Plus many people don't want to spend RL money on a game. Many people want to play casually.
Another thing, once you have trillions of dollars, the game becomes too easy. You will always be buying the best equipment and you don't have to worry about loosing money. It also takes the accomplishment of working in game to get a fancy ship out. You don't feel like you are accomplishing anything, another day another ship.
I will admit, for a short amount of time, my primary source of EVE income was time codes for a few months. After a while EVE started to get boring. There wasn't any challenge in doing anything. No challenge=no fun. Doing this only keeps you entertained for a few months. Earning cash through in game mechanics will keep you entertained for a long time.
Finally this really makes the game unbalanced. The game becomes too easy for people who choose to buy time codes and too hard for those that choose not to. Since one half of the community is making more money, merchants will raise their prices. Those that buy time codes will have less ISK making their strategy useless and those that don't will be making nothing. All this does in increase prices for everyone voiding the "yay I can buy everything" mentality.
Your idea looks great on paper, but in reality it doesn't do anything. The money you spent on time codes could be spent on cooler things than EVE.
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Caldari Citizen20090217
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Posted - 2011.04.20 15:30:00 -
[71]
ITT: rich ppl attempt to justify buying success with RL cash.
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iOSJake
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Posted - 2011.04.20 16:06:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Of course if everyone did this the price of PLEX's would drop from oversupply.
This... *takes sunglasses off* ...is the OP's desired effect. *puts sunglasses back on*
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Adrian Idaho
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Posted - 2011.04.20 20:02:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Fredfredbug4 Edited by: Fredfredbug4 on 20/04/2011 15:21:02 The problem though is inflation. Not in real life but in the game. If everyone starts getting money from time codes there will be a lot of of PLEX in the market. As a result the prices will drop.
If I'd get 10 ISK everytime someone incorrectly uses the term "inflation", I could finance my PLEXes this way.
Also @the people that argue that "it's a game, you shouldn't pay RL money to buy the stuff you want": especially since it's a game, you shouldn't have to work in it if you don't enjoy it. And no, buying ISK through PLEX is not an insta-"I win"-button û if anything, I guess it makes for some juicy killmails if not combined with actual skills.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2011.04.20 20:13:00 -
[74]
What is sad is that at one point I was able to trump real world income (by what you are going on here) with FW plexes - when they were in their prime.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.04.20 23:29:00 -
[75]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
It can be achieved in a more primitive way than with your thinking. Find some girl at CCP (if you're a man) and make her happy - and you know what I mean*). When she wants to thank do you ask for free ISKs.
*) Yes, with your meat banana!! --
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Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.21 00:34:00 -
[76]
Tell me what in Eve is really fun. Everything is work work work. We're Slaves.Jump Jump Grind grind, click click.
Now eft, thats fun.
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Aeris Louise
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Posted - 2011.04.21 00:57:00 -
[77]
CCP alt spotted.
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Herrring
Amarr National Quality Breaker
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Posted - 2011.04.21 01:05:00 -
[78]
The point of this post is
1. Most people complain grinding for isk is boring and rather just go shoot stuff.
2. Since the point of playing a game is to have fun, it doesn't make sense to torture yourself with grinding if you have an alternative that is way more efficient.
OP is probably not saying you shouldn't grind if it is fun for you, but if you are torturing yourself to have fun for a while in your free time, it's probably better to buy a plex.
That is ofc, assuming you make more isk/hr in rl.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.21 02:03:00 -
[79]
Edited by: death klokk on 21/04/2011 02:06:07 Edited by: death klokk on 21/04/2011 02:03:05
Originally by: Herrring The point of this post is
1. Most people complain grinding for isk is boring and rather just go shoot stuff.
2. Since the point of playing a game is to have fun, it doesn't make sense to torture yourself with grinding if you have an alternative that is way more efficient.
OP is probably not saying you shouldn't grind if it is fun for you, but if you are torturing yourself to have fun for a while in your free time, it's probably better to buy a plex.
That is ofc, assuming you make more isk/hr in rl.
someone gets it. It's amazing how many nerves i hit with the original post.
A)Some say they enjoy the grind -> oh, the original post wasn't meant for you. Enjoy your grind
B)Some say its cheating -> fair enough, don't cheat.
C)Some say isk=win -> false, because then you're also saying isk=sense or skill. see battleclinic's 10's of thousands Billion+ isk LOLmails to validate my argument.
D)Some say its "a game" to be enjoyed not something to spend money on -> why do you think that? My time has value. If i have 10 free hours a week to play the game, I do not want to spend 8 of them doing something I don't enjoy so that maybe, MAYBE, i can get enjoyment out of the other 2. Afterall, its a game, I don't enjoy all the aspects of the game so why even bother with them?
E)Some say it lowers the "value" of items in game to someone personally -> Maybe to an extent, but that doesn't mean people will throw away their money regardless of how they got it. IF i found 20$ on the sidewalk, i'm not going to dispose of it in the nearest trash can because it has no value to me because "i didn't earn it". A loss paid for with cash still remains a loss to me for my money. I am more reluctant to lose actual dollars than i am to lose imaginary currency. I would rather lose 7Billion to corp theft than 350$ in a RL robbery.
The original post was really just a question of why people do the grind. If the answer was somewhere along the lines of "to fund another aspect of the game i enjoy more" then why even grind to begin with?
edit: thanks for all the replies, this gives a tiny amount of insight to how players feel about microtransactions.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.21 03:10:00 -
[80]
Not very serious reply: Some years from now people will figure out ways to actually make 700m+/hr in game grinding (some will claim they already do). RMT will evolve into a real job legalized by CCP. Any given time big % of people online will simply be people at work. These people will go flip burgers after work for fun.
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.21 06:30:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Morgan Polaris As someone with an education should know, if no one's grinding, you'd be lucky if selling PLEX even gets you a 100 mil.
You should also know when making individual optimization decisions you take other peoples' behavior as given...this would include their behavior which impacts PLEX prices.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.21 08:54:00 -
[82]
Eve used to be a game where you got ahead through your wits, and it was a great game because of that.
Now you can just throw RL money at the problem.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.21 09:00:00 -
[83]
Face it. ALL the "balancing" and upgrades are only to enhance CCP's income. If it creates demand for Plex or if it creates the demand for extra characters, "That is the only true "upgrade". Every nerf creates an almost immediate need for plex to quickly rebalance. Every effort to fight lag is to promote large Plex consuming fleet fights.
After their Nerfs pulled me out of high sec,, I really dug the sanctums in null. They were nice after work through the week for quick logins so I could pvp on weekends. I really tried to enjoy this pvp fleet isk burning lifestyle and then they nerf sanctums. This finally convinced me that they don't want balance, they don't want PVP. They don't give a hoot about risk versus reward and I really Don't think they've ever shown much sign of really caring about making the game fun for players.
Its all about selling Plex and accounts and the RMT war is just eliminating competition. Eliminating Bots isn't about rmt, its about encouraging Plex sales instead of grinding. I could go on and on but Real life calls so I can buy a plex or another account:)
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2011.04.21 09:15:00 -
[84]
I could but I won't, I play the game to play the game, not to buy my way to some endgame.
Also Known As |
Spookyjay
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Posted - 2011.04.21 09:24:00 -
[85]
I think it is perfectly reasonable to treat plex selling the same as any other hobby material. Some people buy petrol for their motorbike. Others Paints ect. Eve runs on Isk and playtime not oil and petrol. The nice thing about eve is that IF you want and have nothing better to do you can have a hobby that pays for it self and requires nothing but your attention.
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Adrian Idaho
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Posted - 2011.04.21 10:04:00 -
[86]
@all those that oppose selling PLEX for ISK but pay for their subscription with RL money: how do you justify continually paying RL money for a game? Or to put it in other words: how does paying for the subscription differ from selling a GTC/PLEX plus grinding 700m ISK (from which two PLEXes are bought)? The effect is the same, yet you despise the latter method, but not the former one.
Besides, everyone who sells one PLEX for ISK enables one person without a proper RL income to play EVE for one month, so how is that not a good cause?
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Netheranthem
Eve Engineering Finance Eve Engineering
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:39:00 -
[87]
Personally I play the game for the social interactions and the intellectual challenge. So I'm experiencing with the market while chatting with other people from my corp. Doesn't take too much time, and at some point you're happy to find 1B in your wallet. Though if I ever come to need ISK, I just buy GTCs. Happened a few times already, and I don't regret it.
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:57:00 -
[88]
OP makes a very, very good point.
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Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:15:00 -
[89]
I used to sell the odd GTC to boost the ol' wallet up but I've since stopped. Primarially due to having no money and secondly because it kind of felt like a cheat. Why bother playing the game when I can just apply real world money? Fair enough it can get you that shiney quicker but sometimes saving for what you want builds the anticipation more. For me at least. There are two sides to the EVE community; those that scream for change and those that scream against it. Often they are the same person. |
The Slayer
Caldari GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:25:00 -
[90]
Counterpoint : I get a nice feeling of :smug:ness knowing that I haven't spent any real money for my accounts for about a year now. I actually kind of enjoy the PVE, especially now that incursions are here. I don't need bags of ISK, and I don't feel like spending real money on my internet spaceships. Some people just like playing the game.
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Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:39:00 -
[91]
Nice attempt to lower the PLEX price 8/10 (-2 because it was too obvious) -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately. |
Flamewave
Crimson Moon Society
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Posted - 2011.04.21 13:57:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Tuggboat Tell me what in Eve is really fun.
Ganking noobs.
__________
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.21 14:46:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Flamewave
Originally by: Tuggboat Tell me what in Eve is really fun.
Ganking noobs.
Pod concorden scum that ganks noobs ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.21 14:57:00 -
[94]
Any job worth anything pays $35 an hour? That's a pretty elitist statement. As a paramedic I make an average of $25 an hour, not counting any night differentials (depending on what company I am riding with).
I also went into graphic detail talking about the type of stuff we (paramedics, nurses, emts) do for people and why when you're dying in your own *****, vomit, and blood you'll change your mind-- but figured I am just raging. Bad night.
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2011.04.21 15:06:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Lost Greybeard on 21/04/2011 15:07:02 35$/hour is 73k$/year at a full-time job. The median income in the USA is 43k$/year, and that's before federal withholding (social security), federal income taxes, and state income taxes, which generally sum to something like 30% of income, minimum.
So... no. 35$/hour in liquid assets is a trollishly grotesque over-estimation of what someone is going to make. A more reasonable estimate would be about 15$/hour for a white-collar job requiring a bachelor's degree that you've been working at for a few years (21$/hour - 1/3 for taxes).
I mean, I guess the point still stands that that's more than you'd make grinding boring things in-game, but still... come on.
Edited: Wrote mean where i meant median ---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.21 15:58:00 -
[96]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
I like my way better:
1. Sod the education. 2. Sod the job. 3. Build a business. 4. Work for straight commission and overrides. 5. Buy an Aston Martin Vanquish. 6. Buy a couple thousand GTCs. 7. Sell a couple thousand GTCs. 8. Play EvE forever.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Felix Maynard
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:11:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Val'Dore
I like my way better:
1. Sod the education. 2. Sod the job. 3. Build a business. 4. Work for straight commission and overrides. 5. Buy an Aston Martin Vanquish. 6. Buy a couple thousand GTCs. 7. Sell a couple thousand GTCs. 8. Play EvE forever.
Motivated enough to start a fortune 500 company, but still trolling eveboards?
lolno
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:21:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Felix Maynard
Originally by: Val'Dore
I like my way better:
1. Sod the education. 2. Sod the job. 3. Build a business. 4. Work for straight commission and overrides. 5. Buy an Aston Martin Vanquish. 6. Buy a couple thousand GTCs. 7. Sell a couple thousand GTCs. 8. Play EvE forever.
Motivated enough to start a fortune 500 company, but still trolling eveboards?
lolno
Who said anything about a fortune 500 company?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:34:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Felix Maynard
Originally by: Val'Dore
I like my way better:
1. Sod the education. 2. Sod the job. 3. Build a business. 4. Work for straight commission and overrides. 5. Buy an Aston Martin Vanquish. 6. Buy a couple thousand GTCs. 7. Sell a couple thousand GTCs. 8. Play EvE forever.
Motivated enough to start a fortune 500 company, but still trolling eveboards?
lolno
Who said anything about a fortune 500 company?
Felix. ----------------------------------------
Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with. |
Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:41:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Flamewave
Originally by: Tuggboat Tell me what in Eve is really fun.
Ganking noobs.
The full answer is:
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women. ---
If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous |
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Montgomery Crabapple
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:51:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Originally by: Flamewave
Originally by: Tuggboat Tell me what in Eve is really fun.
Ganking noobs.
The full answer is:
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Yea whatever Conan .
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:05:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 21/04/2011 18:06:00
Every game has some kind of grinding in it and EVE is no different. If you don't do it or don't experience it as such, others will. Just keep in mind if no-one would grind anything your plex would be worthless because no-one would have ISK to pay for them.
And for the income thing: I earn $24.96 an hour and even if I could afford a few plex a month it's just not my thing to buy in-game advantage with RL money. Somewhere I still have the idea that IRL money shouldn't matter and we're all equal in a game (although $ for vanity things don't matter imo). Perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned.
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:18:00 -
[103]
My liesure time is priceless.
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Tipsy
Gallente X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:26:00 -
[104]
Originally by: death klokk GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work.
According to the US Census Bureau, via Wikipedia, in 2008 having a salary of $72,800 - $35/hour, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year - would have put a person in the top 12% of personal income in the United States (and I'd guess there's not been much wage growth in the past two years).
Either I've misunderstood what you meant or you're suggesting that 88% of people in the US and plenty of people from other countries who play this game and earn less than $35 an hour don't have a 'decent' job. I'm sure that's really going to win over the support of people here
The free time I have to play EVE is time where I would not be earning money through my day job anyway - so it'd be a net loss for me to spend real-life money for this purpose.
If I really didn't enjoy earning ISK in EVE then I suppose I'd consider the trade-off, but I think overall it would reduce my enjoyment of the game to do something which feels like cheating. Where's the challenge in getting ahead if you've done it by means that have nothing to do with your skill at interacting with other players?
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Holdout
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:38:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tuggboat Face it. ALL the "balancing" and upgrades are only to enhance CCP's income. If it creates demand for Plex or if it creates the demand for extra characters, "That is the only true "upgrade". Every nerf creates an almost immediate need for plex to quickly rebalance. Every effort to fight lag is to promote large Plex consuming fleet fights.
After their Nerfs pulled me out of high sec,, I really dug the sanctums in null. They were nice after work through the week for quick logins so I could pvp on weekends. I really tried to enjoy this pvp fleet isk burning lifestyle and then they nerf sanctums. This finally convinced me that they don't want balance, they don't want PVP. They don't give a hoot about risk versus reward and I really Don't think they've ever shown much sign of really caring about making the game fun for players.
Its all about selling Plex and accounts and the RMT war is just eliminating competition. Eliminating Bots isn't about rmt, its about encouraging Plex sales instead of grinding. I could go on and on but Real life calls so I can buy a plex or another account:)
Waaahhhh, CCP doesn't care!!!!
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:39:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Originally by: Flamewave
Originally by: Tuggboat Tell me what in Eve is really fun.
Ganking noobs.
The full answer is:
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Yea whatever Conan .
Genghis Khan.
Delenda est achura. |
the plague
Anthraxus Defense Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:51:00 -
[107]
Edited by: the plague on 21/04/2011 18:52:43
Originally by: Lost Greybeard 35$/hour is 73k$/year at a full-time job. The median income in the USA is 43k$/year, and that's before federal withholding (social security), federal income taxes, and state income taxes, which generally sum to something like 30% of income, minimum.
So... no. 35$/hour in liquid assets is a trollishly grotesque over-estimation of what someone is going to make.
You're absolutely correct that $35/hour is a tremendously optimistic figure. But even you are overestimating here. $43k/year isn't the mediun income, it's close to the mediun HOUSEHOLD income. Actually, mediun household income jumped up to $49,777 in 2009 for the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income
Mediun INDIVIDUAL income is much, much less. So the average person doesn't make anywhere even close to $35/hour in the US. And it bears repeating that the US is #2 in the world in adjusted equivilized disposable household income. Meaning the average person in Europe or Asia has far less disposable income for things like games than the average American.
Bottom line: $35/hour would be a way above average national wage anywhere in the world. It's a nice thought, but the vast majority of EVE gamers simply cannot afford to throw down $500 for Plex whenever they feel like it.
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Lanrick
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Posted - 2011.04.21 19:49:00 -
[108]
Originally by: The Offerer
"Sorry, honey, I can't make it home until dinner. I'm working overtime so I can pay for the game. Oh, and btw. when I come home I'll just play the game, so I didn't work for nothing."
That'll end well.
She cooks dinner? Mine forgot how to as soon as she got a ring on her finger. ------- "The strong are often wrong but the weak are never free." |
Mr Dilkington
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Posted - 2011.04.21 19:57:00 -
[109]
I would not want to put my real life cash into a game when its so easy to make a fortune with a little effort. If i didnt like earning the ISK, i would not play.
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Lanrick
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:06:00 -
[110]
It is also worth pointing out that the median income in the US or Europe is very different from say Russia. I have a friend in Russia who make the equivalent of $650 a month as a doctor. Saving $15 by buying a Plex is much more worth it for her. I on the other hand blow $15 on a lunch without much thought. Strange world we live in.
By the same token that making $15 involves much more effort for some because of their situation, same with making 700m isk in the game. For me that would take forever to make since I am relatively new to the game. Much much grinding for me. But for others, not so big a deal. They have better skills, they have access to better facilities, they have access to better blueprints or perhaps they have spent years building a trade network that now pays them dividends I cannot hope to match.
The point is, a Plex might represent a day's worth of work from some and weeks of work for others. For some, their in game time may be far more productive than their out of game time. ------- "The strong are often wrong but the weak are never free." |
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Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:12:00 -
[111]
SO lets see. After I crush a noob with shield managment 2 in a retriever I should ransom them and ask for the sounds of this noob's moaning girlfriends on evespeak and I will find eve fulfillment.
"Put her on evespeak while you still have her pilot and make her beg if you ever want to mine another lump of Veldspar in that barge" Harrr!!
That!! I haven't tried.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:19:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Tuggboat SO lets see. After I crush a noob with shield managment 2 in a retriever I should ransom them and ask for the sounds of this noob's moaning girlfriends on evespeak and I will find eve fulfillment.
"Put her on evespeak while you still have her pilot and make her beg if you ever want to mine another lump of Veldspar in that barge" Harrr!!
That!! I haven't tried.
I have an idea which thread you meant to respond to but this is just too hilarious. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Joe Phoenix
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:23:00 -
[113]
I completely agree.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:28:00 -
[114]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 21/04/2011 20:28:45
Originally by: Tuggboat SO lets see. After I crush a noob with shield managment 2 in a retriever I should ransom them and ask for the sounds of this noob's moaning girlfriends on evespeak and I will find eve fulfillment.
If teh noob has multiple real life girlfriends and you want to hear them on evespeak, then I don't think you understand who the noob is in that scenario.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:36:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: Tuggboat SO lets see. After I crush a noob with shield managment 2 in a retriever I should ransom them and ask for the sounds of this noob's moaning girlfriends on evespeak and I will find eve fulfillment.
"Put her on evespeak while you still have her pilot and make her beg if you ever want to mine another lump of Veldspar in that barge" Harrr!!
That!! I haven't tried.
I have an idea which thread you meant to respond to but this is just too hilarious.
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
Originally by: Flamewave
Originally by: Tuggboat Tell me what in Eve is really fun.
Ganking noobs.
The full answer is:
To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
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Emiko Luan
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:56:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Of course if everyone did this the price of PLEX's would drop from oversupply.
~QFT --- +Welcome to my world+ |
Potato IQ
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Posted - 2011.04.22 00:46:00 -
[117]
Originally by: death klokk
E)Some say it lowers the "value" of items in game to someone personally -> Maybe to an extent, but that doesn't mean people will throw away their money regardless of how they got it. IF i found 20$ on the sidewalk, i'm not going to dispose of it in the nearest trash can because it has no value to me because "i didn't earn it". A loss paid for with cash still remains a loss to me for my money. I am more reluctant to lose actual dollars than i am to lose imaginary currency. I would rather lose 7Billion to corp theft than 350$ in a RL robbery.
Eh? Be consistent. Your method of play as stated in your original post would suggest that the 7b isk theft was generated with RL money, so it's the same thing surely
I think your misinterpreting the term 'value' when it comes to playing Eve. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks about my short term plans and goals in-game, with an eye on the long term, far too much for what is a game. But the reason I/we do this is because as long as you take care of RL, Eve is a superb distraction, so why sully it with cheap and easy tactics. It doesn't have to be tough or a grind, but somewhat of an effort that simply adds value to your free time and the isk/assets gained. Different strokes I suppose, and it's not that the selling of PLEX for isk is a bad thing, just something I'm sure a lot are not interested in doing
And you really messed up with the $35 comment
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.22 01:44:00 -
[118]
Edited by: death klokk on 22/04/2011 01:51:33
Originally by: Potato IQ
Originally by: death klokk
E)Some say it lowers the "value" of items in game to someone personally -> Maybe to an extent, but that doesn't mean people will throw away their money regardless of how they got it. IF i found 20$ on the sidewalk, i'm not going to dispose of it in the nearest trash can because it has no value to me because "i didn't earn it". A loss paid for with cash still remains a loss to me for my money. I am more reluctant to lose actual dollars than i am to lose imaginary currency. I would rather lose 7Billion to corp theft than 350$ in a RL robbery.
Eh? Be consistent. Your method of play as stated in your original post would suggest that the 7b isk theft was generated with RL money, so it's the same thing surely
I think your misinterpreting the term 'value' when it comes to playing Eve. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks about my short term plans and goals in-game, with an eye on the long term, far too much for what is a game. But the reason I/we do this is because as long as you take care of RL, Eve is a superb distraction, so why sully it with cheap and easy tactics. It doesn't have to be tough or a grind, but somewhat of an effort that simply adds value to your free time and the isk/assets gained. Different strokes I suppose, and it's not that the selling of PLEX for isk is a bad thing, just something I'm sure a lot are not interested in doing
And you really messed up with the $35 comment
Yeah i think the 35$/hr comment ****ed some people off. IDk.. i make that an hour (untaxed) with a 2 year degree in the healthcare field so I suppose my view on that is fairly skewed which most have pointed out. Plus, I didnt realize some players are actually playing a game that costs over 2% their monthly income if they were a doctor in russia. ( assuming the game costs 15$/month and doctor earns 650$/month according to above poster). The percentage of income this game costs goes up more substantially if you make less than that as im sure not everyone in Russia are doctors.
My point about the 7 billion, which i should have clarified, is if I made that using in game mechanics doing whatever. Maybe I should have said, "If you asked me if I would rather receive 7 billion iskies or 350$ what would you choose", i would easily take the 350$. Sure, they are worth the same when comparing them to each other at the current conversion rates (assuming i can convert the $350 to 7bil isk and vice/versa), I would still rather have the cash in hand as opposed to the currency in game even if I could instantly convert the isk to real money. Logically, it would make no difference which I took, but because of my personal set values on items I would rather receive it in USD.
edit: I wonder how many people would not be able to afford the game if plex for isk didnt exist, or people with my mentality didn't exist.
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Romo Skywind
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Posted - 2011.04.22 02:28:00 -
[119]
Holy ****.
I just realized I make more money grinding in Eve than I do at my minimum wage part time job I got to help pay for school.
*winning*
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Jozar Bohman
|
Posted - 2011.04.22 03:25:00 -
[120]
http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-112550-9317-5-what-millionaires-have-in-common?ywaad=ad0035
I'm one of those people, and I won't spend money buying GTCs. That's not how I got to where I am. Now that said I don't have a lot of time to play this game either... |
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
|
Posted - 2011.04.22 06:27:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Felix Maynard
Originally by: Val'Dore
I like my way better:
1. Sod the education. 2. Sod the job. 3. Build a business. 4. Work for straight commission and overrides. 5. Buy an Aston Martin Vanquish. 6. Buy a couple thousand GTCs. 7. Sell a couple thousand GTCs. 8. Play EvE forever.
Motivated enough to start a fortune 500 company, but still trolling eveboards?
lolno
Who said anything about a fortune 500 company?
Felix.
Your box is empty. Fix it.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
NucStone
|
Posted - 2011.04.22 07:52:00 -
[122]
Earning isk is a game. Making real money is a job. That's it
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NucStone
|
Posted - 2011.04.22 08:01:00 -
[123]
And yeah, the min rate in US is 35, but the world is not only US
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Kyra Felann
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.04.22 09:29:00 -
[124]
I came to this conclusion a long time ago. My best ISK/hour income is working a real job and buying/selling GTCs. I'd rather do my real job than mine or do missions too. That's sad when gameplay is more boring than a real job--it shows failure as far as game design goes. Games should always be more fun than a real job unless you just really like your job. -----WARNING SIGNATURE BELOW-----
Bring back the NeoNeoCom! |
Genetically Different
|
Posted - 2011.04.22 11:52:00 -
[125]
Im jus bumpin this thread cause its true... lol.. love the man for stating the truth..
lets see.. im on...$840m isk an hour plus the odd Faction loot I score for productivity. Whew,, Now that I think about it.. Public Holidays, weekends, travel allowences and crib..
The thing is though.. you can kiss it if you think i would spend a cent of my $$ on ISK. Ill jus cruise arround in my tengu, slowly building it up to replace my carrier if i lose it in war. Steady steady, enjoying it as I go.
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Hugh The Hand
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Posted - 2011.04.22 17:09:00 -
[126]
...how in the hell did PLEX get this high? I've missed so much.
Yes please, everyone flood the market so I can play for isk again.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.04.22 18:15:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Jenn aSide on 22/04/2011 18:15:43
I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
And $35 an hour? http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/09/14/average-american-salary/ The Average American wage is less than $21 per hour, 35 an hour is just a little less than the average worker could make doing overtime. Yea, in a time where employers are cutting posistions, wages and hours, yea sure go get that overtime pay and spend it on a game that offers you avenues of playing for free....
The original post is beyond stupid, it should be against the law.
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Grog Barrel
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Posted - 2011.04.22 21:16:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Tuggboat Face it. ALL the "balancing" and upgrades are only to enhance CCP's income. If it creates demand for Plex or if it creates the demand for extra characters, "That is the only true "upgrade". Every nerf creates an almost immediate need for plex to quickly rebalance. Every effort to fight lag is to promote large Plex consuming fleet fights.
After their Nerfs pulled me out of high sec,, I really dug the sanctums in null. They were nice after work through the week for quick logins so I could pvp on weekends. I really tried to enjoy this pvp fleet isk burning lifestyle and then they nerf sanctums. This finally convinced me that they don't want balance, they don't want PVP. They don't give a hoot about risk versus reward and I really Don't think they've ever shown much sign of really caring about making the game fun for players.
Its all about selling Plex and accounts and the RMT war is just eliminating competition. Eliminating Bots isn't about rmt, its about encouraging Plex sales instead of grinding. I could go on and on but Real life calls so I can buy a plex or another account:)
Good points. While i, as a gamer since the 80', use to enjoy EvE in some aspects, i will tell you this: Here, on ccp forums, was the first time where i see a company telling their customers repeatdly, in a little indirectly but not subtlety way, that, their max priority goal is the money making, BUT, oddly enough, not by making their customers having the fun/time worthy and/or making them somehow happy.
What really intriges me, is the fact that this kind of approach is being legitimizating itself. Customers, as you can see, aknowledge and fully accept the measures ccp take into consideration to "fix issues", most of them clearly not to fix "ingame issues". As there is no truly signal of customers leaving, why even change the internal political path.
Probably is this a new era, world wide and we'd be witnessing a social-economical evolution in terms of the relationship between service providing companies and customers, where the last one no longer should expect to find a single provider, wanting to truly give him satisfactory services.
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Generals4
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Posted - 2011.04.22 21:20:00 -
[129]
Well there is one little problem to the OP's first post... If too many people would sell Plexes the price would drop a lot and if everyone would sell them nobody would buy them and you're screwed.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2011.04.23 04:30:00 -
[130]
this just makes me so sad :(
as he is totally right this REALLY points out the hard true false off eve.
its a pay to win game, with a ptp on top off it o.O incredibly how greedy some can be :/ ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2011.04.23 04:32:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Jenn aSide Edited by: Jenn aSide on 22/04/2011 18:15:43
I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
And $35 an hour? http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/09/14/average-american-salary/ The Average American wage is less than $21 per hour, 35 an hour is just a little less than the average worker could make doing overtime. Yea, in a time where employers are cutting posistions, wages and hours, yea sure go get that overtime pay and spend it on a game that offers you avenues of playing for free....
The original post is beyond stupid, it should be against the law.
even at 21$ its still over 200mill isk a hour soo yer.. average you can make with a decend low risk is 50mill. thats 4 times as much.
the fact that you can even legit turn rl money into isk is just rediculess and it destroyes the ingame occonomy. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
death klokk
|
Posted - 2011.04.23 05:01:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Jenn aSide Edited by: Jenn aSide on 22/04/2011 18:15:43
I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
bitter?
http://www1.salary.com/Staff-Nurse-RN-Operating-Room-salary.html
See step 1.
Anyway, enjoy playing the game for "free".
However, it would be nice to live with my mom and be bill free, except for the whole zero privacy drama that accompanies that.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.23 05:18:00 -
[133]
Quote: GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work.
The rate of pay that you quote is nearly double the average for a *family* in the US.
You fail at life assclown.
Next time you choose troll don't fail at math.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Nakaota Auduin
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Posted - 2011.04.23 05:47:00 -
[134]
Frankly, I could flip burgers at McDonalds and make ISK at a faster rate than most of us can in-game. I think that's part of the original point of this post, although it's sort of stating the obvious. We're happy for you, OP, that you passed second grade math. Good job.
I think some assumptions are completely off though. For instance, just because you make $35/hr (or whatever the OP thinks the minimum is, LOL), doesn't mean you'll want to spend it on EVE. I make significantly more than $35/hr, and I've never bought GTCs, and never will. I have much better things to spend money on, and knowing how hard I work for it, I do not take spending likely. I assume that GTCs are mostly purchased by financially irresponsible people - that is children/youngsters who are self-indulgent and who haven't started a family yet. Ironically, those are the people who generally have the least money to spend.
The GTC aspect of the game actually really bothers me. It's an obvious easy revenue stream for many MMOs, but most other MMOs forbid it, in favor of fair play. CCP, on the other hand, prosecutes "illegal" isk trading, but trades isk themselves. And since they also print isk, it effects the in-game economy, which they supposedly care about, but not enough not to fill their own pockets. I could go on forever, ranting about how majority of the system is actually centered around keeping people feeling inadequate and keeping disinterested people from leaving completely, but nobody at CCP cares if you're actually playing the game, as long as you keep paying them. Look at botting, the training system, and GTC, only a few obvious indicators of where CCP's focus really lies.
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Maverick2011
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.23 06:38:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Jireel
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom I know it's sactioned by CCP and all, but spending real money for ISK just feels like cheating to me. vOv
I have no problem with other people doing it. That's just not how I want to play my game.
Same here. I could do that easily, but I want to play the game, not buy my way through.
I feel it also. Buying money in online games pretty much defeat the objectiv of the game: wealth and power. Since power can be bought with wealth in many ways, buying money is like starting a game with codebreaker quick exp gain or infinite money codes.
I also consider it cheating.
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Potrondal Morrison
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Posted - 2011.04.23 07:01:00 -
[136]
I only read the OPs opening post and i felt like i had to say:
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
|
Posted - 2011.04.23 07:18:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Originally by: death klokk
GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work.
...
current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that.
Great! Can you help me get a green card so I can move over to US and work for $35 an hour? It's really a pain to pay for EVE where I live, because the monthly average wage on the state level here is around $200.
The overwhelming majority of people in the US earn ~$15/hour -------------- Fix the game's last broken weapon system - support if you care!
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Pinaculus
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Posted - 2011.04.23 11:30:00 -
[138]
My EVE time is fixed. I will either spend $30 bucks on PLEX, and use that EVE time buying/flying pimpy ship, or I will save $30 bucks and fly non-pimpy ships while grinding ISK in-game. I can now use that $30 bucks on anything else (such as taking my wife to the movies). I would rather make my marriage more valuable by investing $30 in it than make my EVE account $30 more valuable.
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Concord Bilboard
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Posted - 2011.04.23 11:51:00 -
[139]
death klokk- your speaking of USA (Usd 35/h), that is not the whole world. Average sallary in my country is around 700 USD/month (or USD 4/h)... So 1 plex (usd 15) equals 3houres of WORK or 3h of GAME (if you can manage to have +/- 100 mil isk/h)...
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.04.23 13:24:00 -
[140]
The point was made earlier that the more people sell plex, the more demand there will be for stuff, so more manufacturers will start manufacturing stuff keeping prices in balance.
I think that's false.
While there may well be a certain number of ex-manufacturers or potential new manufacturers that might be drawn to manufacturing more stuff if prices go up I think demand for stuff can easily outstrip supply. Many PvPers for example are not going to suddenly choose to start T2 production just because stuff is expensive.
Isn't the following scenario possible:
The more people who buy plex the more bots will be encouraged to generate the isk those people want. Players who do not bot or use RMT to fund their play will then get hit in 3 different ways.
1. Bots saturate the market with minerals, loot and salvage keeping income from ratting and mining low.
2. Prices of high end goods T2 ships etc rise in response to demand from rich players selling plex.
3. Income of non-RMTing players remains unchanged and in the face of rising prices they are placed at a clear competitve disadvantage compared to those who RMT.
Isn't this exactly what we are already seeing?
Now that CCP has legalised RMT it's basically a form of macrotransactions where you can buy any ingame equipment you want with cash. There are reported instances of alliances buying entire capital and supercapital fleets with RMT. So like that other guys says, we are now paying a pay to play game with pay to win on top.
And it sucks.
CCP can't even distribute in game stuff like moon goo without massive imbalance and completely ballsing up the economy. There was never the slightest chance that they'd be able to mix ingame and RL cash without completely buggering everything up.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.23 14:02:00 -
[141]
Quote: The more people who buy plex the more bots will be encouraged to generate the isk those people want.
Wrong. The people who bot are breaking the rules for self gain. They won't be any more encouraged or discouraged to bot. The only variable that controls them is being banned.
As far as it being "worth it" to just buy your gametime, whatever floats one's boat. I would rather spend time playing EvE than working personally. EvE is fun and work sucks.
My mom used to say the same thing as Red Foreman. "Its called work for a reason. If it wasn't, it'd be called superhappyfuntime".
Also, too much stress is put on "isk per hour". If you can make enough money in eve to buy the stuff you want and buy your gametime you are "doing it right", no matter what some forum troll tells you.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.04.23 14:29:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Cipher Jones Wrong. The people who bot are breaking the rules for self gain. They won't be any more encouraged or discouraged to bot. The only variable that controls them is being banned.
You seem to be suggesting that no bots in Eve are used to support RMT, and that legalized RMT does not stimulate the creation of vast amounts of isk using automation. But I surely must have misunderstood you because of course that would be crazy talk.
If that is indeed what you are saying then I tip my hat to you sir, because that is a remarkably sweeping generalization even for these forums.
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Esharan
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.23 15:34:00 -
[143]
Average income in the U.S. isn't 68k/year - I just graduated college, BSBA concentration marketing - got a good job doing marketing for a software company in MA. and am gonna make 56k a year. I mean granted its my first job, but that isn't $35/hr so it would cost me more....
Prob will still buy some tho ;)
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Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.23 16:57:00 -
[144]
Last I checked mining was only a few million an hour, Why would anybody even waste electricity for that kind of isk even if it was on a bot? Players are not the problem, CCP is.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.23 17:12:00 -
[145]
Originally by: death klokk bitter?
http://www1.salary.com/Staff-Nurse-RN-Operating-Room-salary.html
That's all RNs make?! Glad I never fell for that scam.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Atra Hasis
|
Posted - 2011.04.23 17:59:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Atra Hasis on 23/04/2011 17:59:28 I bought a GTC once. I bought an Orca fully fit with the proceeds. This Orca was several weeks later blown up by a destroyer. I have not bought another GTC.
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.23 18:27:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Jenn aSide Edited by: Jenn aSide on 22/04/2011 18:15:43
I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
And $35 an hour? http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/09/14/average-american-salary/ The Average American wage is less than $21 per hour, 35 an hour is just a little less than the average worker could make doing overtime. Yea, in a time where employers are cutting posistions, wages and hours, yea sure go get that overtime pay and spend it on a game that offers you avenues of playing for free....
The original post is beyond stupid, it should be against the law.
The average EVE player isn't the average american...
If you have a wife and kids this is even LESS reason to play EVE, since the cost of playing EVE is even higher (it comes at the expense of family time).
The OP's point stands at any wage ($21/hr or whatever). People in EVE do things that are basically a job (mining) but pay far less.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.23 19:02:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Neutrino Sunset
Originally by: Cipher Jones Wrong. The people who bot are breaking the rules for self gain. They won't be any more encouraged or discouraged to bot. The only variable that controls them is being banned.
You seem to be suggesting that no bots in Eve are used to support RMT, and that legalized RMT does not stimulate the creation of vast amounts of isk using automation. But I surely must have misunderstood you because of course that would be crazy talk.
If that is indeed what you are saying then I tip my hat to you sir, because that is a remarkably sweeping generalization even for these forums.
Nah, it just so happens to be right, RMT'ing is certainly self gain, as is receiving money (isk) in game.
i dont know how you could see receiving money as unequal to self gain however. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.23 19:23:00 -
[149]
Edited by: death klokk on 23/04/2011 19:24:56
Originally by: Cipher Jones You fail at life assclown.
Next time you choose troll don't fail at math.
Quote:
As far as it being "worth it" to just buy your gametime, whatever floats one's boat. I would rather spend time playing EvE than working personally. EvE is fun and work sucks.
My mom used to say the same thing as Red Foreman. "Its called work for a reason. If it wasn't, it'd be called superhappyfuntime".
Also, too much stress is put on "isk per hour". If you can make enough money in eve to buy the stuff you want and buy your gametime you are "doing it right", no matter what some forum troll tells you.
Why are you so angry? Why do I have to fail at life because you hate the aspect of your life that provides the means for you to sustain housing, clothing, food, and entertainment? Wouldn't this really make you fail at life because you are unable to do something you enjoy that simultaneously earn you a living? I guess your real life sucks. Why do you assume "work sucks" for everyone? I, like many other people i'm sure, enjoy my day job. Actually, I enjoy it much more than any form of PVE in EvE.
edit: Maybe not "much more", but you get my drift.
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Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
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Posted - 2011.04.25 09:09:00 -
[150]
Replacing activities in EVE that feel like work with RL work that pays more per hour sounds OK by itself, but do you really have that much more fun with a few 100m more ISK in EVE? It must have something to do with the show-off element of expensive hobbies...
How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
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Nishachara
Special Operations Corp Mortal Destruction
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Posted - 2011.04.25 14:02:00 -
[151]
Judging by the OPs post... ...i can only conclude that he is reptillian.
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Jenn aSide
|
Posted - 2011.04.25 14:25:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Jenn aSide on 25/04/2011 14:25:53 Edited by: Jenn aSide on 25/04/2011 14:25:04
Originally by: death klokk [
I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
bitter?
Not at all, simply pointing out that what you are saying is stupid. Some people don't grasp the concept that other people are not them, and thus have differnet wants , needs and enjoy different things.
For me, shooting rats in an anom (to fund pvp) from the comfort of home while drinking beer, watching TV and BSing on comms with corp mates while the kids sleep is worlds away better than working overtime on my job if it's available (I'm a police officer). And being a family man, if I DID get some extra money I'm going to spend it on , oh I dunno, my family rather than use it as a short cut for more internet space ships.
Quote:
Anyway, enjoy playing the game for "free".
Thanks, I will, keep buying those GTCs so I can.
Quote:
However, it would be nice to live with my mom and be bill free, except for the whole zero privacy drama that accompanies that.
Nice dodge, but I'm still betting you can't possibly have many real life responsibilities if you think the way you do.
Quote:
That is very interesting. I wonder if the playerbase continues to pay/play because they truly enjoy the game even though they want more from CCP, or if they play because of a lack of other options involving mmo spaceships.
I play because I enjoy it, there ARE other space ship games, don't care for em personally , but to each his own. The question is, if you hate eve as it is, why play at all?
I think you're the one who is somewhat bitter at the fact that somehow a video came no one is forcing you to play isn't to your standards. Oh well lol.
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Chicken Blood
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Posted - 2011.04.25 14:40:00 -
[153]
Some people are posting in this thread just because they feel the ingame plex value threatened? This is my EVE
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:19:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Kyra Felann I came to this conclusion a long time ago. My best ISK/hour income is working a real job and buying/selling GTCs. I'd rather do my real job than mine or do missions too. That's sad when gameplay is more boring than a real job--it shows failure as far as game design goes. Games should always be more fun than a real job unless you just really like your job.
Failure in game design that you spend real money on is in fact success for everyone involved. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Galara Hakari
Caldari NEXUS.LLC
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Posted - 2011.04.25 15:31:00 -
[155]
It's quite hilarious to see the sheer amount of RL-wallet-peen flexing in this thread. I am a strong believer, that video games are just that - games, entertainment. If you do not enjoy it - do not play it. No matter now much $$ I can generate IRL per hour, if I have to sink additional funds in the game I play (beyond sub fee) to enjoy it - it is not a game for me. Simple, really.
There is no limit to Perfection... |
StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:20:00 -
[156]
Edited by: StillBorn CrackBaby on 25/04/2011 16:22:17 Edited by: StillBorn CrackBaby on 25/04/2011 16:21:06
Originally by: Jenn aSide I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
The original post is beyond stupid, it should be against the law.
Wow, melodramatic whining or what. The OP has a very valid point...
I've been playing like this since my first week in EVE almost 3 years ago, I buy GTC's and trade for ISK. It's a win win situation. I get the ISK I want, the buyer gets his account paid for? So what's the problem?
And I have lots of Real Life responsibilities...
Married 32 years, $2200.00 a month mortgage payment, etc...
And a lovely wife, who's a gamer with her own rig and takes part in beta testing of new games she does. I got it all man, GOT IT ALL !!!
Woot !!!
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Ripley Nostromo
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:25:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Galara Hakari if I have to sink additional funds in the game I play (beyond sub fee) to enjoy it - it is not a game for me. Simple, really.
No one says you have to? But you did spend I assume to pay for the rig you are playing on? It's all part of the cost...
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Scorpii Orion
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:28:00 -
[158]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
Get education to buy internetspaceships money... Priceless.
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Galara Hakari
Caldari NEXUS.LLC
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Posted - 2011.04.25 16:29:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
No one says you have to?
That's exactly my point - everyone plays the game to enjoy it. And if someone finds enjoyment in spending RL currency on it - so be it. Not me ^_^
And my PC was built for a different reason, being able to play video games on it is just a bonus
There is no limit to Perfection... |
Ripley Nostromo
|
Posted - 2011.04.25 16:33:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Galara Hakari
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
No one says you have to?
That's exactly my point - everyone plays the game to enjoy it. And if someone finds enjoyment in spending RL currency on it - so be it. Not me ^_^
Right on bro...
Quote: And my PC was built for a different reason, being able to play video games on it is just a bonus
My PC's are ALL built for gaming first. Got 7 or 8 that can play EVE, got 2 can play Crysis high end...
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.04.25 17:07:00 -
[161]
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby
Originally by: Jenn aSide I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
The original post is beyond stupid, it should be against the law.
Wow, melodramatic whining or what. The OP has a very valid point...
No, he actually doesn't for anyone except himself (and you it seems). He finds eve pve content lacking, so of course, we ALL most find it equally lacking right?
I know people who actually like mining (while BSing with frineds on comms, or doing homework, or hell, even cleaning their house). Well, mining just isn't for me no matter what company I'm in.
But you see, as I can internalize the idea that not everyone is like me, nor are they in my same situation, well, whatever, how they choose to enjoy the game is fine with me.
Want to buy your isk, that's fine, but don't look at me like I'm crazy because I choose to do things differently because I'm not you. I have plenty of time to kill rats, and plenty of beer and actual friends in my corp, so that's better to patrolling the hood hoping some stillborn crackbaby (lol, see what I did there) decides to take a shot at me....
Quote:
I've been playing like this since my first week in EVE almost 3 years ago, I buy GTC's and trade for ISK. It's a win win situation. I get the ISK I want, the buyer gets his account paid for? So what's the problem?
No problem at all, it's the OP who has a problem.
Quote:
And I have lots of Real Life responsibilities...
Married 32 years, $2200.00 a month mortgage payment, etc...
Great, then you can buy some GTCs for the op so he can play a game he actually enjoys lol.
My point is that the OP is just stupid (evidence by the $35 an hour comment), people do things for their own reasons (pvp, pve whatever), the suggestion that people who make in game isk to stay in game are doing something wrong is just dumb, especially when it's people like me who are the market for people like him( and YOU lol).
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.04.25 22:21:00 -
[162]
PLEX / GTC used to be worth buying with ISK. I am amazed at how many people are willing to spend this kind of ISK on a game time, and yet deathly afraid of taking any risk in ships valued at 5m isk. It makes me wonder if the problem is IRL or with the ISK faucet, or both.
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.26 00:37:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby
Originally by: Jenn aSide I'll bet my next month's pay that the OP lives in his mom's basement , rides a bike to school and has no bills to pay (or wife or kids).
The original post is beyond stupid, it should be against the law.
Wow, melodramatic whining or what. The OP has a very valid point...
No, he actually doesn't for anyone except himself (and you it seems). He finds eve pve content lacking, so of course, we ALL most find it equally lacking right?
Um, no. His point that buying GTC's and trading them for ISK is valid...
As for me I do PVE because or when I want to. Not because I have to do it or other tedious activities in EVE just to earn ISK.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.26 02:30:00 -
[164]
Quote: Why are you so angry? Why do I have to fail at life because you hate the aspect of your life that provides the means for you to sustain housing, clothing, food, and entertainment? Wouldn't this really make you fail at life because you are unable to do something you enjoy that simultaneously earn you a living? I guess your real life sucks. Why do you assume "work sucks" for everyone? I, like many other people i'm sure, enjoy my day job. Actually, I enjoy it much more than any form of PVE in EvE.
edit: Maybe not "much more", but you get my drift.
I said you fail at life because your entire premise was based on a falsehood. I was not assuming you were incorrect, you were in fact incorrect. Since you don't PvP in EvE that makes you a troll.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2011.04.26 02:39:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Hesperius PLEX / GTC used to be worth buying with ISK. I am amazed at how many people are willing to spend this kind of ISK on a game time, and yet deathly afraid of taking any risk in ships valued at 5m isk. It makes me wonder if the problem is IRL or with the ISK faucet, or both.
Interesting point.
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Dresine
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Posted - 2011.04.26 04:21:00 -
[166]
First up, when I had less kids and more income, I brought the occasional PLEX for my 'blooding' into pvp. Just wanted to declare that ;-)
I would like to ask this question. Why is it fair that someone who has free income can get more of an advantage over someone who hasn't?
To answer my own question, I don't think it is fair at all. Its an uneven playing field, simple as that. I have friends who have only just recently got into the game. Due to a higher or more disposable income they are now running around in navy this and navy that, with plans to buy pirate faction. Yep I'm jealous, and good luck to them, but aren't people missing the point? It seems clear to me that people who buy Plex on a regular basis are not achieving anything in the game. Sure they skill up, we all do that, but do they really acquire the skills to do what this game is all about, which is of course THINK. Where is the accomplishment in buying a navy mega through a Plex? I guess if your vain, you get to go look at me, I'm so cool, but what did you do to earn it in game? Personally, there is no satisfaction in seeing a navy ship or a carrier anymore in low sec because its so easy to just go bah just another plex ship. There was a day when you rarely saw one, and the ones you saw you knew that the player had earnt it, which made it special. I'm sure people are running around in carriers which they earned through the game, just a pity that there is a suspicion that they brought it with plex hanging over their heads.
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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.26 04:37:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Dresine There was a day when you rarely saw one, and the ones you saw you knew that the player had earnt it, which made it special. I'm sure people are running around in carriers which they earned through the game, just a pity that there is a suspicion that they brought it with plex hanging over their heads.
You know, I have to agree with the sentiment, but it's fundamentally flawed. When I first sub'd years ago, there were few who had PLEX'd their way into high sp characters. The community was a lot smaller, and the end-game was battleships.
Fast forward close to eight years and that paradigm is gone. A player has a lot higher to climb to get on the same level as he used to. Training into a battleship isn't enough to land you in most fleets, now you need a hac, or a specific weapon system (artillery atm), etc. These days buying up into characters is a high demand market. At the same time, the vets who've spent the better part of those 8 years playing these high end characters are more than willing to part with them (and their large sums of isk) through the same system.
You might not think the system is fair, but it's working to the benefit of everyone involved. I get to sell my characters for isk, or my isk for gametime i'd rather not pay for irl. The new players get to purchase one of my alts for a leg-up in large scale pvp or my isk for the benefit of not needing to grind so much. Resources are not being created or destroyed here. Nobody with cash is magically causing isk to appear. Both parties are recieving a benefit, else there would be no transaction in the first place.
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Dresine
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Posted - 2011.04.26 05:39:00 -
[168]
Quote: The new players get to purchase one of my alts for a leg-up in large scale pvp or my isk for the benefit of not needing to grind so much. Resources are not being created or destroyed here. Nobody with cash is magically causing isk to appear. Both parties are recieving a benefit, else there would be no transaction in the first place.
Well thought out response and your points are valid. my response to this though is that the new player experience is limited then. I'm unsure how buying an established character teaches you how to play the game. Nor am I unsure how such a situation as you describe gains more players to Eve. The new player experience to Eve is already daunting enough and needs addressing somehow. What you describe (and its true because those same friends I referred to in my first post are thinking about buying experienced Characters) raises concerns about whether CCP would have the will or desire to address it.
I cannot accept, sorry not trying to step on your toes here, how resources are not lost. The market for t1 products is diminished by what you describe, thereby creating a vacuum which no industrialist will fulfill. This then simply causes those industrialists with the skill and T2 Blue prints to be rooted firmly in place with no one coming underneath them (we are of course talking worst possible examples here, which is proably not realistic, though possible).
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.26 05:44:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 26/04/2011 05:46:37
Originally by: Dresine It seems clear to me that people who buy Plex on a regular basis are not achieving anything in the game. Sure they skill up, we all do that, but do they really acquire the skills to do what this game is all about, which is of course THINK. Where is the accomplishment in buying a navy mega through a Plex?
On the other hand: what's the accomplishment in paying 2 years of subscription and filling your skillqueue on a regular basis?
Originally by: Dresine I'm unsure how buying an established character teaches you how to play the game.
Well, not being able to fly or fit stuff definitely doesn't teach you how things in EVE work. You learn from trial and error and experience, but how can you learn if you can't try and experience because your skills hardly allow anything?
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Feyona
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.26 07:26:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Feyona on 26/04/2011 07:27:02
Originally by: ZZZu Khaaaarhg What are you talking about? I "earn" $3 per hour irl and that's far from the lowest on this planet.
Not whole world lives by american standards.
Most people here (being the US) don't make that much. Most people don't even make half of that. Even people I know that graduated with computer science degrees or engineering degrees are only making 20$ an hour or so.
And that's if they can find a job in their field at all, lots of people I know are still working retail and flipping burgers with 30,000 in student debt. |
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.26 17:46:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Dresine ...but aren't people missing the point? It seems clear to me that people who buy Plex on a regular basis are not achieving anything in the game...
Are you kidding? Achieving anything in the game like what? It's a game that all just a game there is no real "achievments" to be had here. And I think it is you missing the point. The point is to "have fun". I have plenty of that in game...
Quote: ...but what did you do to earn it in game?
Nobody earns anything they fly in game. They buy it with ISK,
Quote: ...and the ones you saw you knew that the player had earnt it, which made it special.
Special to who?
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2011.04.26 17:48:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Feyona And that's if they can find a job in their field at all, lots of people I know are still working retail and flipping burgers with 30,000 in student debt.
And here I am making $70,000 a years as a Mainframe Guru and I never finished high school. Sometimes you just gotta be in the right place at the right time... (And of course with no student debt)...
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Klauz Lycan
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.26 18:11:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Kyra Felann I came to this conclusion a long time ago. My best ISK/hour income is working a real job and buying/selling GTCs. I'd rather do my real job than mine or do missions too. That's sad when gameplay is more boring than a real job--it shows failure as far as game design goes. Games should always be more fun than a real job unless you just really like your job.
this. i really enjoy my job. (i really do!) and i could spend some money on isk if i wanted to. but as said, if you really spend real money on a game you miss the whole point. but as kyra felann said: when gameplay is more boring than your job is is failure all along. and even if i really like my job its different from playing a _game_ and if you have to work irl to have fun in a game... than it feels horribly wrong. just my 2 cent _______________________
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Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.04.26 20:22:00 -
[174]
Originally by: clixor
If you buy PLEXes from CCP, other than for startup costs, wth does isk even mean? It removes all incentives to work smarter and all feeling of progress is useless.
Even for startup costs it didn't feel right for me.
Yes, I consider my time to be worth more than 5$ an hour, hell, you'd get the equivalent on welfare in my country. But still I am paying for several services (not just games) to have it killed, way more than 5$ per hour murder often.
So i guess I dont really have a opinion relevant to anyone else on this. I can swing both ways, But I have to say, that it does have a slight detrimental effect on gameplay for me.
I guess "fun" is being left out of this, but I guess that it's irrelevant to this discussion, as it evolves around efficiency.
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.04.28 03:06:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Not at all, simply pointing out that what you are saying is stupid. Some people don't grasp the concept that other people are not them, and thus have differnet wants , needs and enjoy different things.
For me, shooting rats in an anom (to fund pvp) from the comfort of home while drinking beer, watching TV and BSing on comms with corp mates while....
Funny I could have sworn... from the unedited original post: "Now mind you, some people PVE for reasons other than trying to maximize their in-game wealth as fast as possible (IE: running lvl 5s with friends while having a good time on vent/ts, or being constructive by mining while watching your favorite tv program) and if you fall into that category of casual player, then you can move on to the next topic. "
Quote: Nice dodge, but I'm still betting you can't possibly have many real life responsibilities if you think the way you do.
Want to bet that in isk or cash? Perhaps you should stick to being a cop and stop pretending that you know anything about someone you've never met or better yet anything at all. Effective time management skills are valuable no matter what it is applied to, RL job, video game whatever.
Quote: The question is, if you hate eve as it is, why play at all?
I said that? I believe i said i hate the grind.. If i hated eve as a whole then you have a point, but I dont hate eve as a whole and so you have no point. You only have meaningless assumptions.
Quote:
I think you're the one who is somewhat bitter at the fact that somehow a video came no one is forcing you to play isn't to your standards. Oh well lol
you might be on to something here. Yes, I am bitter this game after 10 years isnt where it should be when looking at all the broken things in the game. Yes, I am bitter that things to me other than pvp are mindnumbing tasks with no real reward. Fortunately, I am able to set all that aside because the mechanics allow for a "cheap" ,to me atleast, alternative to bypass the boring stuff and do what i enjoy doing.
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Jenny Cameron
Caldari Ordo Eventus
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Posted - 2011.04.28 12:11:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Klauz Lycan but as kyra felann said: when gameplay is more boring than your job is is failure all along. and even if i really like my job its different from playing a _game_ and if you have to work irl to have fun in a game... than it feels horribly wrong. just my 2 cent
/agreed
I wonder if people have jobs that are less horrible than grinding in EVE or that they really don't have anything more useful to spend their money on than microtransactions that effectually double or triple their subscription fee ..
________________* - If you're in favour of a bloodline change please vote in the Assembly Hall in this thread - |
Jack Mayhem
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Posted - 2011.04.28 14:09:00 -
[177]
For those on both extremes of PLEX selling discussion: it all depends on perspective. If you have to grind hours and hours to pay for PLEX, it's much better to buy GTC and enjoy the game. Especially if you earn good money IRL. If you have sufficient surplus of ISK or you are a student, then it's ok to pay for in-game time with ISK.
I earn a very good salary for working in investment banking, but I also make 8-10 billions ISK a month in-game. I see no reason whatsoever not to pay for my 3 accounts with ISK.
Also 3 accounts in subscription would cost me 540EUR/year. You can pay half of vacation bill to Spain with that. That's worth much more than extra 50 Abaddons.
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.28 16:53:00 -
[178]
The bottom line is that CCP allows me to buy GTC's to trade for ISK. Since I play the game the way I WANT to play it, what ever the busybodies have to say about how I spend my RL cash is completely irrelevant...
And if the day comes I can no longer do this, I will just find something else to play...
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.04.28 17:26:00 -
[179]
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby The bottom line is that CCP allows me to buy GTC's to trade for ISK. Since I play the game the way I WANT to play it, what ever the busybodies have to say about how I spend my RL cash is completely irrelevant...
And if the day comes I can no longer do this, I will just find something else to play...
Buying GTCs is not "playing" anything, it's just a short cut for people who either really don't have time or who don't like the ways of making isk in game.
I don't really care, to each his own, and I benefit from the GTC short cut system because I can use easily acquired in game isk generated by those short cutters to play the game without costing my family a dime. Win-Win all around.
I simply respnded to the OP because his "suggestion" that people just buy GTCs is stupid, the way he presented it.
He could have basically said "I'd rather go to work than pve in EVE because eve pve is boring to me, I wish CCP would give us better content" and been done with it lol. I like the portions of eve pve that I partake in (even after the "Anom nerf", forsaken Hubs and old fashion exploration are great) and I'm sorry he doesn't.
It was his condescending tone against people who actually like to play the game without short cuts (in addition to his gross inaccuracies about real life money making, which leads me to believe that he must be trolling, $35 an hour indeed :) ) that I was replying to.
I don't care that you buy GTCs, more power to you, but again, if the OP finds eve so lacking and "Grindy" to the point that going to work is more fun than playing, well, he's just in the wrong game, period.
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Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2011.04.28 18:47:00 -
[180]
I never bought GTC and I really disliked the idea behind it.
Until my work and university ate all my time. Now I'm really considering it lol!
Yes, trying to get ISK when you can play only 3 hours a week is terribad.
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.28 19:53:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby The bottom line is that CCP allows me to buy GTC's to trade for ISK. Since I play the game the way I WANT to play it, what ever the busybodies have to say about how I spend my RL cash is completely irrelevant...
And if the day comes I can no longer do this, I will just find something else to play...
Buying GTCs is not "playing" anything, it's just a short cut for people who either really don't have time or who don't like the ways of making isk in game.
I don't really care, to each his own, and I benefit from the GTC short cut system because I can use easily acquired in game isk generated by those short cutters to play the game without costing my family a dime. Win-Win all around.
I simply respnded to the OP because his "suggestion" that people just buy GTCs is stupid, the way he presented it.
He could have basically said "I'd rather go to work than pve in EVE because eve pve is boring to me, I wish CCP would give us better content" and been done with it lol. I like the portions of eve pve that I partake in (even after the "Anom nerf", forsaken Hubs and old fashion exploration are great) and I'm sorry he doesn't.
It was his condescending tone against people who actually like to play the game without short cuts (in addition to his gross inaccuracies about real life money making, which leads me to believe that he must be trolling, $35 an hour indeed :) ) that I was replying to.
I don't care that you buy GTCs, more power to you, but again, if the OP finds eve so lacking and "Grindy" to the point that going to work is more fun than playing, well, he's just in the wrong game, period.
Yeah man... Actually I think you and I agree more than what it may seem. Happy flying.... (Oh and yes $35 an hour is a reality for some of us. My best year was $126K so whatever that works out to for a 37.5 hour week)...
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Liz Laser
The New Era C0NVICTED
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Posted - 2011.04.28 20:20:00 -
[182]
I can grind iskies clicking a mining laser every few minutes while doing housework, watching TV, or reading.
In high sec at zero risk, in null-sec you just need to be in comms and turn the speakers up while in a fleet where at least ONE person is situationally aware enough to rally people and/or fleet warp.
But the last year or so I was in a corp/alliance where the SRPs for PvP yielded me a profit every time I died, so I didn't have to grind at all.
It will be interesting to see if I can get back into grinding, having joined a new corp this week.
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Anuiruson Bennington
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Posted - 2011.04.29 04:35:00 -
[183]
plant's a large M-100 near the OP's chair.
"This should be fun. So easy a Caldari can do it."
Lol
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Odo Ven
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Posted - 2011.04.29 04:48:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Odo Ven on 29/04/2011 04:47:52
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby (Oh and yes $35 an hour is a reality for some of us. My best year was $126K so whatever that works out to for a 37.5 hour week)...
I'm making about 2k euro an hour sqeezing diamonds out of my arse. Would you like a shine at my shoes mate?
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Blackjack 3v3
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Posted - 2011.04.29 14:34:00 -
[185]
Originally by: death klokk Steps for success:
1. Get an education. 2. Get job with said education. 3. Buy GTC 4. Sell
rinse/repeat.
Everyday I come across a thread where someone asks or boasts about earning 80-100mil isk per hour. Now mind you, some people PVE for reasons other than trying to maximize their in-game wealth as fast as possible (IE: running lvl 5s with friends while having a good time on vent/ts, or being constructive by mining while watching your favorite tv program) and if you fall into that category of casual player, then you can move on to the next topic. However, I've always wondered why people spend so much time grinding their way to capital ships, faction fitted ships..etc etc at a snail's pace. Not everyone agrees with what I will say, but most will agree that time=money. The thing about time is that its universal. Time spent in game could be time spent doing something more profitable IRL.
GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work. 100mil isk an hour grinding L4s or plexing whatever effectively translates into 5$ an hour. That number gets even lower if your not blitzing said missions in a pimped out golem. I don't really know of anyone that would work 7hrs a day for 35$. Heck, current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that. When I first started playing EvE a few years ago, I would skip out of work early so I could get home and play. That is, until i realized how I was lowering the value of my time. It amazes me how many people grind all night for a few hundred million and complain about how much of a chore or "like a 2nd job" it is to play.
So unless you grind isk because your RL income is driven from RMTs from game, or you're a child who can't work; Is your time really worth 5$ an hour? If it is, see step 1.
Once liberated from the 'boring' aspects of the game and the fear of losing your 20mil fit rifter, you'll find a new found love for the game.
flame on.
tl;dr: Buy GTCs, your time is worth more than 5$ an hour... i think.
Not a big forum fan in general, however this has got to be one of the stupidest justifications of "paying for power" in a video game I ever read. Well eve is a free to play & a pay to play game in ONE. High mark on the dev team for the accomplishment.
So kids go to school , get a job and some day you`ll be able to fly internet spaceships like you`re dad - priceless
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StillBorn CrackBaby
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Posted - 2011.04.29 14:42:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Odo Ven Edited by: Odo Ven on 29/04/2011 04:47:52
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby (Oh and yes $35 an hour is a reality for some of us. My best year was $126K so whatever that works out to for a 37.5 hour week)...
I'm making about 2k euro an hour sqeezing diamonds out of my arse. Would you like a shine at my shoes mate?
How about I inspect yer butt and pick up any loose drop offs hoping they glitter???
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Odo Ven
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Posted - 2011.04.29 18:10:00 -
[187]
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby
Originally by: Odo Ven Edited by: Odo Ven on 29/04/2011 04:47:52
Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby (Oh and yes $35 an hour is a reality for some of us. My best year was $126K so whatever that works out to for a 37.5 hour week)...
I'm making about 2k euro an hour sqeezing diamonds out of my arse. Would you like a shine at my shoes mate?
How about I inspect yer butt and pick up any loose drop offs hoping they glitter???
That will do, so long as you deposite them in my vault for safe keeping.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.29 18:14:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Opertone on 29/04/2011 18:24:23 PRO soccer -
get 50 balls, win
pro chess, contact woodmakers, order as many pieces as you want
pro boxing, use stun grenades and shocker to knock your opponents out
answer, no you moron, this is a game, you play by the rules to enjoy the process, not to win a big e-peen
SUPER EDIT: go on sisi and blow up stuff... big isk, riches, repsect, but no effort-satisfaction (like playing a game on easy mode)
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.29 22:06:00 -
[189]
Edited by: Hieronimus Rex on 29/04/2011 22:06:12 Isn't one of the most-touted features of EVE the whole avoidance of grinding...so you can just train skills and walk away from your computer while they train up? Why are people coming out of the woodwork to defend grinding for ISK? What's wrong with saying there's equivalence between the value of your work time and the value of your leisure time?
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fathitman
Gallente Woopatang Primary.
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Posted - 2011.04.29 23:04:00 -
[190]
I hope you realize that holding a degree or cert does not guarantee a job for you lol. So really its, Join the military lol ----------------------------
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