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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:10:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Allant Doran
Save being terrified of new things for old people.
Thank you, that actually made me laugh out loud.
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Ania Hyperthron
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:14:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Ania Hyperthron on 21/04/2011 11:26:56 Edited by: Ania Hyperthron on 21/04/2011 11:25:43
Originally by: Rohnda
Originally by: Prince Kobol
Originally by: Ecann somebody should be filing some lawsuits against Facebook. From an advertisement directly linking isk auctions and account sales. I would post the address of but it would probably be removed immediately, at least I hope.
Its not illegal to advertise selling isk and characters.
Its not illegal to sell isk or characters for rl money
Its not illegal to buy isk or characters for rl money
Where is your point?
Arh you don't have one
It is illegal to proffit of someone elses registered trademark , Account holders in eve(This goes for anyone selling isk or buying it since having an account is implied)
Aggre's to this in the EULA , in sever cases of breach in the EULA which is a contract you accept between you and CCP, Legal action may be taken against you.
Assuming you live in a western country, that would get your ass Into court...
Not in Germany, Poland, Spain and Sweden. There is propably more but at this ones im 100% sure. The trick in these countries is to sell "YOUR" time that you spent on collecting isk/account. It is completely legal in some countries and you cant do nothing about it.
PS: Not sure how in other countries, but in Germany you can actually pass/sell ownership of any account to another person (bank accounts,game accounts,even your debts). No matter what EULA says, germany law says that you CAN pass all this EULA regulations to another person. So all you can get for this is ban, but lawsuit ...nevah.
Lets say you buy phone with vodafone contract and then you want to sell it WITH contract and rest of your debts for the phone ...In Germany its completely legal!!!. This is why most this shady websites are located in these countries and China :)
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 21/04/2011 11:27:04
Originally by: Ania Hyperthron Not in Germany, Poland, Spain and Sweden. There is propably more but at this ones im 100% sure. The trick in these countries is to sell "YOUR" time that you spent on collecting isk/account. It is completely legal in some countries and you cant do nothing about it.
Exactly. If national law overrules the EULA and renders some conditions illegal there's not a lot you can do as a game company, legally. The same for the advertising, even eveboard had bot advertisements, they're just random google advertisements.
You can only take in-game repercussions as a game developer.
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:30:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Londo Cebb So selling something that you do not own is not fraud?
Well if that is the case, I have a lovely bridge you may want to purchase.
There are precedents for selling something you do not own. Books: You buy the right to read a book. Yet you do not own the intellectual property within. After you read the book, you may then re-sell the book. It's the same for art. Records, CD's, Software, etc, etc, etc. I could fill the page with items for which portions of them you do not own yet, may resell.
Now, I'm not sure of the legalities of isk selling. However, given it's pervasive nature across multiple mmo's, companies, nationalities, I'm pretty sure that selling isk is not "illegal" otherwise it wouldn't be so widespread? At worst, it's not a big enough issue legally to justify the cost of litigation except in extreme situations where it might be demonstrably as adversely impacting CCP's profits. And since CCP is not in the business of selling isk, regardless of GTC, then no financial harm is done.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.21 11:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
There are precedents for selling something you do not own. Books: You buy the right to read a book. Yet you do not own the intellectual property within. After you read the book, you may then re-sell the book. It's the same for art. Records, CD's, Software, etc, etc, etc. I could fill the page with items for which portions of them you do not own yet, may resell.
Just to take your example one step further, if isk is the intellectual property, then the physical paper/binding would be equivalent to the server that the database is hosted on.
Good luck trying to buy that from CCP and then re-sell it.
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Now, I'm not sure of the legalities of isk selling. However, given it's pervasive nature across multiple mmo's, companies, nationalities, I'm pretty sure that selling isk is not "illegal" otherwise it wouldn't be so widespread? At worst, it's not a big enough issue legally to justify the cost of litigation except in extreme situations where it might be demonstrably as adversely impacting CCP's profits. And since CCP is not in the business of selling isk, regardless of GTC, then no financial harm is done.
Just because something is widespread does not make it automatically legal. That said, I am sure that there is nothing intrinsically illegal about selling isk either.
I completely agree with the rest of your statement. The complexity of international law, jurisdictions, and the absurdly unbalanced cost/benefit are probably why you see so few of these types of cases. The ones that you do see are not really about punishing the sellers, but making an example out of them to ward off other people doing this.
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Krud Rurssel
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:01:00 -
[36]
CCP don't ban accounts that buy Isk. Why is that? |
Saju Somtaaw
Kagan-Trjula Industrial
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:16:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Krud Rurssel CCP don't ban accounts that buy Isk. Why is that?
Maybe so they can keep buying it helping CCP track down the sellers accounts? ---- --- ---
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Bollox Reader
Farkistan GED Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rohnda
It is illegal to proffit of someone elses registered trademark , Account holders in eve(This goes for anyone selling isk or buying it since having an account is implied)
Aggre's to this in the EULA , in sever cases of breach in the EULA which is a contract you accept between you and CCP, Legal action may be taken against you.
Assuming you live in a western country, that would get your ass Into court...
You can say this all you like, but it no longer applies online. Ask Google. Their lawyers do not recognize trademark infringement as an issue on advertising and will permit (for example) bidding on trademarked names for ad revenue. They set the pace and until a judge actually forces Google to do so, no other platform will be considered liable. I know that Google already pays legal fees for other companies in this matter to prevent a precedent. I also know that Google pretty much bankrupted a major airline with legal fees regarding trademmark infringment in their adwords system (though not many people heard about that). My in-laws have had issues like this before and there is no legal enforcement of trademark laws on the internet, merely voluntary compliance.
And yes, this happened right here in the US. Trademarks are NOT currently protected online.
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Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.04.21 14:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Londo Cebb So selling something that you do not own is not fraud?
Well if that is the case, I have a lovely bridge you may want to purchase.
There are precedents for selling something you do not own. Books: You buy the right to read a book. Yet you do not own the intellectual property within. After you read the book, you may then re-sell the book. It's the same for art. Records, CD's, Software, etc, etc, etc. I could fill the page with items for which portions of them you do not own yet, may resell.
Now, I'm not sure of the legalities of isk selling. However, given it's pervasive nature across multiple mmo's, companies, nationalities, I'm pretty sure that selling isk is not "illegal" otherwise it wouldn't be so widespread? At worst, it's not a big enough issue legally to justify the cost of litigation except in extreme situations where it might be demonstrably as adversely impacting CCP's profits. And since CCP is not in the business of selling isk, regardless of GTC, then no financial harm is done.
Prostitution and human trafficking are widespread.
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.04.21 15:21:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Guilliman R
Stop being conservative and reach out to the world.
By sitting in front of your computer playing facebook games?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:32:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Bollox Reader
Originally by: Rohnda
It is illegal to proffit of someone elses registered trademark , Account holders in eve(This goes for anyone selling isk or buying it since having an account is implied)
Aggre's to this in the EULA , in sever cases of breach in the EULA which is a contract you accept between you and CCP, Legal action may be taken against you.
Assuming you live in a western country, that would get your ass Into court...
You can say this all you like, but it no longer applies online. Ask Google. Their lawyers do not recognize trademark infringement as an issue on advertising and will permit (for example) bidding on trademarked names for ad revenue. They set the pace and until a judge actually forces Google to do so, no other platform will be considered liable. I know that Google already pays legal fees for other companies in this matter to prevent a precedent. I also know that Google pretty much bankrupted a major airline with legal fees regarding trademmark infringment in their adwords system (though not many people heard about that). My in-laws have had issues like this before and there is no legal enforcement of trademark laws on the internet, merely voluntary compliance.
And yes, this happened right here in the US. Trademarks are NOT currently protected online.
The entertainment industry as a whole would like to have a word with you. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
T'Laar Bok
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda AdBlock is a wonderful plugin.
I've used a lot of different software/plugings over the years and the best (for me) has been Hostman. Its just a manager for the hosts file. Got about 140,000 ad servers or dodgy sites blocked atm. The rare ad that does come through I ad its IP to the hosts file or use my browsers 'block content' option. |
Ifly Uwalk
Caldari Concentrated Evil
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:05:00 -
[43]
Poasting in "EULAistehpwnlolnowaiitisntnubcakes"-thread #9001.
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:09:00 -
[44]
I don't know about other countries but where I live there is a difference between criminal law and civil law. The use of the word 'illegal' (or the equivalent in my language) usually pertains to actions that breach criminal law and criminal law only.
Going from there breaching a contract would never be 'illegal' but you could possibly get your ass handed to you either way in court. The difference is that even if you're say fined a contract penalty or something that still doesn't make you a 'criminal'. The police isn't going to care and you're not going to have any kind of criminal record as a result.
To me it appears some people here use the term illegal in a very loose sense and that has caused confusion.
--
Originally by: CCP Elais
It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
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RiskyFrisky
Under the Table Inc. Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:12:00 -
[45]
AdBlock.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk Poasting in "EULAistehpwnlolnowaiitisntnubcakes"-thread #9001.
Yea I was thinking that, but I have never participated in one of these (only read) and I was really bored at work.
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Clavian Voi
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:28:00 -
[47]
Worked for years helping managing a number of game sites, but not any more. Very enjoyable work for the most part. But unlike EVE, which is subscription based, the vast majority of Internet sites rely on advertising to fund the services and resources YOU consume. For a larger site, file hosting, server upkeep, database administration, anti-spam efforts, and software license fees can be VERY expensive. And do you think writers, editors, and administrators work for free?
People who use ad blockers make me sick. I realize that isn't a popular thing to say, but when you use ad blockers you deprive game sites of the ability to provide you with free services and content, which just forces them to either pack it in or turn to ever more unpopular ways to fund the operation. People want everything for free and far too many people have developed an mentality where they feel they are entitled to consume other's people's content and bandwidth without even the tiniest passive return.
I've watched for years as one good game site after another has been forced to close. But eventually people get EXACTLY what they deserve. There will come a time -- perhaps sooner than you think -- when Internet advertisement has collapsed to a point where it is completely worthless and subscription based sites will be the rule rather than the exception. You'll have yourselves to thank. Flame away.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2011.04.21 21:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Clavian Voi text
The reason I use adblock, personally, is to get rid of those incessantly annoying adverts that are either flash based, animated, or scripted in such a way to interrupt what I'm doing. If you're saying I should tolerate these, you can go right ahead and **** off. This is the internet, not TV. When advertising changes to acknowledge that I'll turn the blocker off (and I have for a handful of websites that don't use these obnoxious ads).
Ye'llo? |
Adacia Calla
Minmatar Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
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Posted - 2011.04.21 21:17:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Rasz Lin
Originally by: Awesome Possum facebook has ads?
oh wait, i'm someone who doesn't get ads.
/leaves thread
but you still use facebook LOL
So do half a billion other people.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.21 21:21:00 -
[50]
My favorites are the vibrant mouseover ads. Just by accidentally moving your mouse over a word of text they pop up some completely irrelevant advertisement, that you must then close to continue scrolling through a page. That's a real great way to get me to buy your product.....oh no wait, actually I actively boycott any company I see in those adds.
I haven't eaten at burger king in 3 years because of the "king" ads.
My list is getting quite long.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.21 21:26:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Adacia Calla
So do half a billion other people.
At one point there were over 17 million people in the **** party.
What's your point?
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.04.21 21:42:00 -
[52]
Why do you suppose these businesses pay to advertise? Because people click on the ads and purchase isk and accounts. If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't advertise.
As long as they're spending money advertising and nobody is clicking on the ads, their advertising budget will eat away at their margins. So, I say let them run the ads. Just don't click on them.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.04.21 22:29:00 -
[53]
I have 17 mil, can I help? - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Mick Oyen
Caldari Phoibe Enterprises Peregrine Nation
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Posted - 2011.04.21 22:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda AdBlock is a wonderful plugin.
I so agree with you
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T'Laar Bok
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Posted - 2011.04.21 23:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Clavian Voi People who use ad blockers make me sick.
If you want to use MY screen real estate to advertise on then you can pay ME.
Originally by: Clavian Voi when you use ad blockers you deprive game sites of the ability to provide you with free services and content, which just forces them to either pack it in or turn to ever more unpopular ways to fund the operation.
I have no issue with paying my way however I'm not responsible for a site having a flawed business model.
Having said that I do miss the days when I was getting 35-50 cents PER banner click. Those were the days!
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Bollox Reader
Farkistan GED Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.21 23:09:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Bollox Reader on 21/04/2011 23:10:37
Originally by: Ranger 1 The entertainment industry as a whole would like to have a word with you.
The lawyers of Google would be more than happy to set you straight on enforcement. Specifically, try to get them to block bidding on a trademarked company name for ppc advertising for anyone but the trademark owner. Should be a simple cease-and-desist letter, but they deny that trademark law prevents others from profiting directly off of the strong established brand of others. If trademark law applied to internet advertising, someone would not be paying almost $10 per click on their own advertising name or live with their name being redirected to a competitor.
That is the reality if trademark law on advertising. CCP would not have a chance to take this to court against FB, Google would hand FB a few hundred million dollars to bury the lawsuit in ten years of pre-trial motions and other stalling tactics.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.22 00:16:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Londo Cebb on 22/04/2011 00:16:35
Originally by: Bollox Reader Edited by: Bollox Reader on 21/04/2011 23:10:37
Originally by: Ranger 1 The entertainment industry as a whole would like to have a word with you.
The lawyers of Google would be more than happy to set you straight on enforcement. Specifically, try to get them to block bidding on a trademarked company name for ppc advertising for anyone but the trademark owner. Should be a simple cease-and-desist letter, but they deny that trademark law prevents others from profiting directly off of the strong established brand of others. If trademark law applied to internet advertising, someone would not be paying almost $10 per click on their own advertising name or live with their name being redirected to a competitor.
That is the reality if trademark law on advertising. CCP would not have a chance to take this to court against FB, Google would hand FB a few hundred million dollars to bury the lawsuit in ten years of pre-trial motions and other stalling tactics.
He was talking about copyright law not trademark law. Why don't YOU check with Google's lawyers and ask them how well that whole "Scan every book in the world" thing is going.
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Nuhm DeAra
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Posted - 2011.04.22 00:18:00 -
[58]
There is a lot of ignorance in this thread.
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2011.04.22 00:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Nuhm DeAra There is a lot of ignorance in this thread.
Can anyone remind me what the definition if irony is?
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