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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2011.04.21 16:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Julianus Soter Implicitly in your argument, you seem to indicate that many people do not wish to be creative or expend effort. Perhaps that's a statement about our society as a whole.
It is not just our society, it is throughout all history. Originally by: Julianus Soter Games are meant to be challenging, and inspire creative solutions to complicated problems. If you want a soothing, relaxing experience, best to go play Bejeweled 9 or something.
If "they" did this: Who would the creative cream of the crop have to feed off of? How would CCP fund this game? You sir, have little clue.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Julianus Soter
Gallente Moira.
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:13:00 -
[32]
The perspective that those with creative and innovative personalities must 'feed' off of the slothful is absurd. It's similar to a Marxist perspective, that the rich only gain through the toil and suffering of the proletariat.
It's impossible to feed off of the lazy and slothful, as the lazy and slothful have nothing to offer in the first place. The best PVP corporations don't become strong from ganking Iteron Mark Five's in lowsec. They become the best by fighting other good PVP'ers.
It is possible for everyone to be rich. It is possible for everyone to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and become better at playing EVE, and have more fun in the process. People may claim I'm a pessimist, but I'm actually a very strong optimist.
The end question is: is everyone playing the game satisfied? Are we all happy, giddy even, to log in, and start running level 4's? To sit AFK in stations in 0.0 as roaming gangs sweep through their 'home' systems?
Or perhaps there is a nagging doubt in the back of your mind, that there is something more, waiting out there for us to discover it.
The proof is in the numbers. Less active corporations. Dying alliances. 0.0 empires turning into a farce.
It is still within our power, however, to turn it all around.
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FeralShadow
RipStar. United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:19:00 -
[33]
Julianus. You are absolutely right. I believe you and I see eye to eye on this subject. It is far too often when I hear people saying "I'm bored" then say immediately after "I'll do more of the same, but it's slightly different" (ok i'm paraphrasing, but doing level 4 missions for a different agent after spending months doing level 4's for the previous agent is not different). These people invariably leave the game.
I urge people to constantly look for new and more interesting things to do, that are different from what you're used to. The daily grind is what kills people and causes them to quit. When I get bored, I do something completely different, be it from level 4's to manufacturing null sec combat boosters, to being a mercenary, to being an afk cloaky greifer. People need to break out of the mindset that "they can't do anything" because people can do anything that is within the game mechanics. People just need imagination.
-Feral _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:21:00 -
[34]
EVE is mainly what the game mechanics make it. Different people and personlities with different time and money allowances play what's best or most convenient for them given the options.
Compare EVE with another sandbox: human existence. Why do people behave radically different from eve players? Right, because the "game mechanics" are different. Same people, totally different rules.
If you want people to behave different, just adjust the rules. It's basically just old fashioned conditioning. The question is what CCP wants players to do and what players find acceptable before they rather quit EVE than comply.
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Fragwit
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:32:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ender Black
Originally by: Opertone In eve most common PvP ratio is 3:1.
That's not just EVE my friend, that is the ratio that almost every armed force in the world has used as a guideline for commander's to decide whether to make contact with or bypass an enemy position. EVE warfare mirroring real life? Yep. In more ways than most people give it credit.
That's why organizations like Goonswarm are so successful in 0.0. They understand the Art of War and theories put forth by Clausewitz. They fight as if the game is Go not Chess.
Blobbing is the anti-social jerk's term for being out organized, out maneuvered, and out motivated by his enemy.
If you find yourself outnumbered, however, the good leader fights a delaying action as he withdraws his ships off the field. Big difference between being blobbed and out numbered.
If you want constant fair fights, CoD is over there --->
If you want to beat your opponent totally, because you out thought him, provided your men better leadership, motivated your masses through propoganda, well, EVE is pretty freaking beautiful.
I second this post. I salute you sir for what i consider to be an insightful riposte.
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Fragwit
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
EVE is mainly what the game mechanics make it. Different people and personlities with different time and money allowances play what's best or most convenient for them given the options.
Compare EVE with another sandbox: human existence. Why do people behave radically different from eve players? Right, because the "game mechanics" are different. Same people, totally different rules.
If you want people to behave different, just adjust the rules. It's basically just old fashioned conditioning. The question is what CCP wants players to do and what players find acceptable before they rather quit EVE than comply.
I dont agree, I think the OP has nailed it. How you use the rules is what matters,I agree people allow themselves to become conditioned and that is what I think the OP has illustrated so elegantly.
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2011.04.21 17:59:00 -
[37]
If EvE is a sandbox game, why do we need politicians trying to influence the way we choose to play?
Most of EvE is at peace? Isn't that the natural evolution of large groups of people? if you don't want folks to strive for stability, then don't allow them to form alliances with each other.
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Diablo Ex
Caldari Reasonable People
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:10:00 -
[38]
Oh Gawde, Listen to you guys and gal(?).
Just yesterday I was in a Great fight in lowsec. I lost two ships in Glorious and Honorable fashion. Against all common sense and descretion, and hopelessly outnumbered we gave it our best. It wasn't even our own POS which we were dying for, it was a neutral neighbors. There were 5 count them 5 supermoms with carrier and dreadnaught support laying siege to a nearby POS. The neighbors were outgunned and out numbered. We had a small 6 man BC gang, 5 drakes and a ferox. Instead of POS'ing up we smiled and said, maybe we can get ourselves on a KB list or two. We grew a hairy pair, HTFU, and warped into the fray. I got my pod away, and quickly reshipped to my Manticore and continued to harass the aggressors until I lost that one as well.
Best time that I have had in weeks, I must admit. Good Fight to ya' (You know who you are). ---
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Julianus Soter But for fate's sake, stop running missions in high-sec.
So, you'd rather I mine some high sec belts, build ships, then self-destruct for insurance? I still have one more L4 AE to run tonight, but maybe I'll have some time to do some mining after that....
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Opertone if you do, Blobbing is not fun for anyone. In eve most common PvP ratio is 3:1.
How is it not fun to win 3:1? I call that a hoot!
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:29:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Shar Tegral Do not reject reality and that reality is: Eve players are incapable of better by choice.
Rail against that all you will, lord knows I have for years. The difference between us, me thinks, is that I don't do it by words alone. You want people to realize that there are alternate game-play styles, go out an exemplarize it.
And what BOTH of you fail to realize is that people ACTUALLY ENJOY the stlye of play they have decided upon.
It isn't that they do not know thre are other options.
Oh... if they could just be shown another way....
Screw you both.
I've seen plentey and expereinced plenty, and the style of play that I have settled into is the style of play I MOST ENJOY!
I'm sick and tired of post after post after post about how I'm doing it wrong, how I need to change how I play, how everyone knows better than me what I should be doing with your game time.
Here is a clue! You do not know more than I do about how I enjoy playing this game!!!!
Pull you aragoant head out of your smell AZ and quit worrying about how I play the game. You go play how you want, and leave me to play how I want.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:35:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Julianus Soter This discussion comes down to whether or not you believe people have the ability to choose better for themselves,
WRONG!!!
"better" implies value, and value, is by definition, subjective. That means better is in the eye of the beholder.
What this really comes down to is you being soooooo araogant as to think that your personal values are so awesome that anyone that doesn't have the exact same values is either ignorant (doesn't know better) or stupid (incapable of knowing better).
Did you ever once stop to think that MAYBE, just MAYBE, all those hundreds of thousands of people know what they enjoy doing just a little bit more than you know what they enjoy doing?
Oh, that's right. The universe was created for you and revolves around you and anyone doing something that you do not want them to do must immediantly stop. They must begin doing the things that you personally want them to do.
To which I say, screw you.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:40:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Skinae Some people don't like the stress / anxiety / adrenaline of PvP, why do you want them to do it? I guess some people really really enjoy the grind of high-sec eve.
Yes, yes I do thank you very much. I enjoy seeing my walet increase by hundred million+ a day. I enjoy buying expensive things. I enjoy moving entire asteroid belts from space into my orca's hold. I enjoy building things and selling them at a modest profit.
My style of play is not "worse" than your's. Your's is not better than mine. We value different things.
I do not tell PVPers that their values are wrong, and I'd really appreaciate it if they'd quit calling me an ignorant fool that doens't know what he enjoys.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.21 19:01:00 -
[44]
LHA Tarawa for ship toaster of the month. c/d? -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Eternum Praetorian
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Posted - 2011.04.21 19:39:00 -
[45]
Why do I read these forums...
The amount of poop you people spew is excruciating
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.04.21 19:48:00 -
[46]
I'm sorry, but I like running level 3 missions in my T1 frigate. Much more challenging than any PVP.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.04.21 20:06:00 -
[47]
This is the part where someone brings up the fact that people take pvp so super serious and won't engage anything without overwhelming odds in their favor because of killmail.
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Wedgetail
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Posted - 2011.04.22 03:47:00 -
[48]
Again, people are constantly loosing sight of the original point of this thread,
The issue isn't that you play this game a certain way, the issue is the lack of variation over time, you make isk in eve cuz isk allows you to undertake more tasks, not repeat more of the same?
If you're going to play a game, going to generate a 'resource' in it, (notably isk) why not experiance every possible way of using that resource? of experiancing everythign that isk gets you?
There are dozens of different proffessions and hundreds or even thousands of means of undertaking them as a venture, sure you have a core way of playing that you enjoy, but are you going to sit there and do that same thing to the detriment of experiancing everything else that there is?
What's the point of having resources, of repeating the same lessons time and time again when you're not going to use the product of those lessons, or use those resources to do anything else? doesn't that make it all just a waste of time? to have something sitting around never being used? never going out and learning more than you already know or think you know?
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Calathea Sata
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.22 03:49:00 -
[49]
Pvp in EVE doesn't require any skillz. Bring a blob and you winz.
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Chopper Rollins
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.22 05:58:00 -
[50]
OP's self-serving egotistical claptrap is self-serving and egotistical.
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Aesis Tori
Gallente Moira.
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Posted - 2011.04.22 10:52:00 -
[51]
So many bitter, angry people...
All Soter's saying here is mix it up a bit, try something different.
EOH poker, that dude that runs the frigate races, battle badger fleets, the RvB initiative, etc ad infinitum.
Do it.
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Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
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Posted - 2011.04.22 12:39:00 -
[52]
The solution is simple. Fly frigates, and fly to frighten people. Kill boards are yesterdays news. If you want to make a name for yourself, just buzz people and make them doc up. You'll get famous real fast. Why pvp when you can lock a system down just with your presence? Of course that's the problem here isn't it? Expectations of what should make a pilot frightening are high for the pvp peeps and low for the miners (haha just kidding humans don't actually mine) and industrialists.
Or maybe there is awesome pvp going on all the time and you just don't know about it, because you suffer the affliction you speak of and you are projecting your limitations on to others. You have to undock to pvp. To undock, close EVE browser and click the button on the lower left corner of your screen (You don't have to close your browser, but if you're going to pvp, I think it is a good idea). On the other hand has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? ________________________________________________
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Nuhm DeAra
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Posted - 2011.04.22 15:05:00 -
[53]
In honor of this thread, I'm going to take my only remaining combat ship and I'm going to start a fight. And I'm gonna lose.
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Desya Dak'ann
Caldari No Ducks Allowed
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Posted - 2011.04.24 00:05:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Julianus Soter Congrats, hopefully everybody runs out there and joins you. ;)
Personally, my own corporation lives in lowsec, and we do everything from 0.0 to wspace. But unfortunately, I don't believe of eve does this, given how few people I see living in lowsec.
I think I understand what OP is gettig at...basically hes hating on the bear...the null bear, the low bear and the carebear all because they make more money than you..OP u mad?
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Grog Barrel
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Posted - 2011.04.24 00:24:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Grog Barrel on 24/04/2011 00:25:41
Originally by: Julianus Soter
Games are meant to be challenging, and inspire creative solutions to complicated problems.
that's science. Games are limited by the intelligence/effort of their creators, don't go expecting too much.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.24 01:06:00 -
[56]
Sun Tsu wrote the art of war, actually.
Its a good read, very relative to EvE online, and free.
Every new sub should come with a copy of the art of war and ISK The Guide. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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IsoMetricanTaliac 2
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.24 01:53:00 -
[57]
Edited by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2 on 24/04/2011 01:56:44 Having played EVE on one character or another now for close to 6 half yrs I have to say that it has become a struggle to even want to login any more.
The old times of EVE are gone & many of the old players are doing the same. EVE has become stagnant & it doesnt look like getting any better with the RMT'ing crap etc that seems to be ruling the direction of many areas of the game
In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?! |
EL Kadin
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Posted - 2011.04.24 02:37:00 -
[58]
It's not just making isk, it's all the things you can do instead of just 1 thing.....http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 02:48:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Opertone on 24/04/2011 02:50:08
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Why do I read these forums...
The amount of poop you people spew is excruciating
quoted for truth
also
Quote:
Having played EVE on one character or another now for close to 6 half yrs I have to say that it has become a struggle to even want to login any more.
The old times of EVE are gone & many of the old players are doing the same. EVE has become stagnant & it doesnt look like getting any better with the RMT'ing crap etc that seems to be ruling the direction of many areas of the game
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.07 14:33:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 07/05/2011 14:33:22
Originally by: Julianus Soter The current state of affairs for the vast majority of the player community can be summed up in one word: complacency. It can also be described by 'stagnation', or 'listlessness'.
I've described it elsewhere as 'momma bird syndrome'. Far too often, the birds of the nest tweet and tweet, with outstretched necks and open beaks, waiting for some beneficent developer to put into their gullet warm, sickly-sweet, regurgitated game content. They complain if these delicious meals does not arrive, on the forums, daily, hourly.
Players remain docked in stations in Eve Online for hours upon hours. People stare at their newly-rigged Paladins and officer-fit Nightmares, waiting for the compulsion of level 4 mission grinding to return them to impassively clicking targets and pressing F1 to fire all weapons, F2 to tractor newly-made wrecks, F3 to salvage them.
Eve Online will not survive such players.
I do agree with you Soter. One of the biggest problems afflicting the game right now is the terrible tendency of the player base to be negative, cynical, risk-adverse and generally content to simply "bore enemies" rather than fight them. Too often when attempting to fight wars these days do we find opponents who order their corp mates to remain docked and logged in and go play something else rather than actually having the (I hesitate to use the word courage since it is a game after all) but perhaps a better description is "sense of fun."
Sure eve is a game where wars matter and can be brutal, winning them is often as much about destroying the morale of foes than it is blowing them up in space etc etc. But I do think corp/alliance leaders do have some responsibility also in not ducking fights and removing enjoyment from their player base. I do understand that we all want to win - but surely losing some even number engagements and giving the enemy crowing rights isn't the worst thing that can happen?
For me, forcing 10 players to watch the other team docked up in a station or being the one to order one's own team to stay docked simply so you can continue to waffle-on about a superior K/D ratio achieved by a lone gank once a day is pretty sad.
I do agree this is the fault of the players (and leaders) we have today. Somewhere along the line its gotten all too serious business and people stopped taking risks.
How to resolve this ?
Its not something you can urge others to do unless you are prepared to do it yourself.
Thats why my alliance "the star fraction" generally lose ships left right and centre seeking to force fights when we shouldn't. Because sure, on one level we are roleplaying guerilla fighters leading a revolution against regressive nationalism in New Eden, but on another we are players in a mmorpg looking to experience the conflict and combat systems of Eve Online and if nobody else is prepared to take risks then I guess we do.
Join the Revolution!
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