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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.22 21:39:00 -
[181]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cambarus
head in sand
Fact still remains, the blaster ship did its job.
Fact still remains that an AC/pulse ship would have done the job better.
I took out a blaster boat and did not have problems with range, tracking, speed or damage. Which is what this entire whinefest is about.
The whinefest is about blasters being bad. The way we measure what is good and what is bad in eve is we compare it to other similar things. You're also flat out lying, because you already admitted to losing out in terms of applied damage a few times because of range, and the main problem with blasters atm is that they do poor damage when compared to their range and the damage of other turrets. Compare a blaster ship to an AC ship, or ideally a pulse ship, THEN tell us all how great blasters are. |
Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.22 22:03:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Straight Edged on 22/05/2011 22:03:29 Wow. When someone posts huge killmail lists, They say its dumb luck
When someone shows dps graph of blaster boats doing more dps then AC tempests at any range, or railboats doing more dps then any beam/arty ship at anything more then 60km they say its EFT.
This is officially the most pointless thread ever.
Show me the percentage of cruise missile killmails in this game. Its much much worst I rather CCP spending time on the correct things. Like t3 frigates and cruise missiles, rather then the balanced blasters.
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mama guru
Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.22 22:04:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Straight Edged Edited by: Straight Edged on 22/05/2011 22:03:29 Wow. When someone posts huge killmail lists, They say its dumb luck
When someone shows dps graph of blaster boats doing more dps then AC tempests at any range, or railboats doing more dps then any beam/arty ship at anything more then 60km they say its EFT.
This is officially the most pointless thread ever.
Show me the percentage of cruise missile killmails in this game. Its much much worst I rather CCP spending time on the correct things. Like t3 frigates and cruise missiles, rather then the balanced blasters.
For the Billionth time blasters are -pretty fine-
The ships using them are not however. _________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.22 22:07:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Cambarus The whinefest is about blasters being bad. The way we measure what is good and what is bad in eve is we compare it to other similar things. You're also flat out lying, because you already admitted to losing out in terms of applied damage a few times because of range, and the main problem with blasters atm is that they do poor damage when compared to their range and the damage of other turrets. Compare a blaster ship to an AC ship, or ideally a pulse ship, THEN tell us all how great blasters are.
considering most fights happen at below 20km range is indeed not much of an issue. The one time range did come into play my speed got me close enough to start putting in the damage. In a prolonged fight of more than on ship I would have been well within range forthe rest of the fight.
AC and pulse have more range but so what? with just about every fight taking place within easy range of blasters anyway it doesnt matter unless you want to kite your enemy. Blasters produce more than enough firepower if you use them correctly to kill your targets. If you cannot use them or dont like them then dont use them, but going out and saying its a useless weapon just makes you sound stupid to people who do use them and get great fun out of them.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.22 22:14:00 -
[185]
Originally by: baltec1
considering most fights happen at below 20km range is indeed not much of an issue. The one time range did come into play my speed got me close enough to start putting in the damage. In a prolonged fight of more than on ship I would have been well within range forthe rest of the fight.
Assuming the people you're fighting sit in a tight ball and never move, sure.
Originally by: baltec1
AC and pulse have more range but so what? with just about every fight taking place within easy range of blasters anyway it doesnt matter unless you want to kite your enemy. Blasters produce more than enough firepower if you use them correctly to kill your targets.
The thing about claiming they have "enough firepower to kill their targets" is that it absolves you of any need for proof. What you have to ask is "how will blasters perform compared to pulses or ACs?" As far as fights being within blaster range, once you're forced to use null you do more DPS with pulses, at higher ranges, with instant ammo swapping, so pulses become provably better. Blasters aren't BAD, all the other guns are just BETTER, which is the problem.
Originally by: baltec1
If you cannot use them or dont like them then dont use them, but going out and saying its a useless weapon just makes you sound stupid to people who do use them and get great fun out of them.
Relying entirely on your corp to provide you with free kills means you have no real idea of how your weapon of choice performs, and have no business discussing game balance from an experience standpoint. Go out and do some solo pvp, or go out with a gang of all blaster ships, THEN come back and talk about how great you think they are. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.22 22:40:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
considering most fights happen at below 20km range is indeed not much of an issue. The one time range did come into play my speed got me close enough to start putting in the damage. In a prolonged fight of more than on ship I would have been well within range forthe rest of the fight.
Assuming the people you're fighting sit in a tight ball and never move, sure.
Originally by: baltec1
AC and pulse have more range but so what? with just about every fight taking place within easy range of blasters anyway it doesnt matter unless you want to kite your enemy. Blasters produce more than enough firepower if you use them correctly to kill your targets.
The thing about claiming they have "enough firepower to kill their targets" is that it absolves you of any need for proof. What you have to ask is "how will blasters perform compared to pulses or ACs?" As far as fights being within blaster range, once you're forced to use null you do more DPS with pulses, at higher ranges, with instant ammo swapping, so pulses become provably better. Blasters aren't BAD, all the other guns are just BETTER, which is the problem.
Originally by: baltec1
If you cannot use them or dont like them then dont use them, but going out and saying its a useless weapon just makes you sound stupid to people who do use them and get great fun out of them.
Relying entirely on your corp to provide you with free kills means you have no real idea of how your weapon of choice performs, and have no business discussing game balance from an experience standpoint. Go out and do some solo pvp, or go out with a gang of all blaster ships, THEN come back and talk about how great you think they are.
Me and my corpmates have been going out in solo/small gang blaster ships for years. I have been doing roaming in BS for 6 months now which is why I was confident in taking the mega out with such a fast roaming gang. I have also been confident in fighting with a single light blaster on a hauler for a good year now.
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Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.05.22 22:42:00 -
[187]
A great sig I saw somewhere:
The reason many gallente ships are phallus shaped is that the pilot has to supply the balls to fly it
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 02:13:00 -
[188]
Originally by: baltec1
Me and my corpmates have been going out in solo/small gang blaster ships for years. I have been doing roaming in BS for 6 months now which is why I was confident in taking the mega out with such a fast roaming gang. I have also been confident in fighting with a single light blaster on a hauler for a good year now.
Go out and do some pvp with a blaster only gang or solo. Then come back and tell us all how great blasters are. You're still coming here arguing that blasters are good based on experience, when you don't actually HAVE any experience using an all-blaster setup. |
Tyme Xandr
Gallente Dark Circle Enforcement
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Posted - 2011.05.23 06:47:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Raven Foxfire Problem solved - CCP just REMOVES Gallente from the game all together. They obviously are bad and unworthy of play.
I only read up to this page and this post is freakin great. I actually LOLed. Not just smirked and made a 'huwh' sound, i laughed .. out loud.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 08:16:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
Me and my corpmates have been going out in solo/small gang blaster ships for years. I have been doing roaming in BS for 6 months now which is why I was confident in taking the mega out with such a fast roaming gang. I have also been confident in fighting with a single light blaster on a hauler for a good year now.
Go out and do some pvp with a blaster only gang or solo. Then come back and tell us all how great blasters are. You're still coming here arguing that blasters are good based on experience, when you don't actually HAVE any experience using an all-blaster setup.
I see you failed to read everything I just said.
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Ghost Nightmare
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:06:00 -
[191]
Ok, the problem isnt with blaster.
Vindicator uses blasters and works a treat.
The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%.
Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:21:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Ghost Nightmare
The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%.
Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them.
So what about Caldari gunboats then? Can they get a web bonus too?
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.23 15:06:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Ghost Nightmare
The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%.
Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them.
So what about Caldari gunboats then? Can they get a web bonus too?
In my opinion fitting and that the concept of a super long range gunships with low alpha and bad dps is to niche and not really viable with the current scanning and med range pvp mechanics. You basically would need more tracking and DPS at medium ranges to make it more attractive with rails in a more common role similar to the amarr design of med range pvp.
This could be archived by reducing rail optimal, considerably increasing her dps and tracking, increasing the optimal range bonus on caldari sniper focused hulls, rebalancing the fitting around mounting a full rack of the biggest rails + mwd + LSE w/o fitting mods and add another turret to the Eagle, Moa and Ferox. Improving the lock range/speed would help a lot by free up a slot in most sniper fits improving her survivability or utility.
This would also improve them considerable with blasters by pushing optimal ranges a bit more in the puls range direction and making them able to mount a full rack of neutrons and a heavy tank w/o fitting mods.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:29:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Ghost Nightmare
The issue is the webs, Gallente blaster boats need a racial bonus to web-strength maybe not quite to 90%, but perhaps 75%-80%.
Problem solved, thats the way they where broken in the first place, and thats the way to fix them.
So what about Caldari gunboats then? Can they get a web bonus too?
TBH the only gallente ships that should be getting web strength bonuses are the t2 blaster boats, the t1 ships should be changed in some other way.
Originally by: baltec1
I see you failed to read everything I just said.
What you say implies that you have not been doing any small gang pvp in a very long time, because if you HAD been doing it, you'd be linking THOSE mails, instead of mails where you and 20 of your closest buddies roll out in an AC gang, that just happens to have ONE blaster ship in it. I also vaguely recall you having said at some point that you had only recently gotten in to blaster ships, though it could be someone else waving the experience flag despite not actually having any that I'm thinking of there, tbh you all sound the same to me. That said, the point still remains, if you have experience showing that blasters are good, let's see it. An AC gang that does well despite having a blaster boat in it is not proof that blasters are good. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:42:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Cambarus
I see you failed to read everything I just said.
What you say implies that you have not been doing any small gang pvp in a very long time, because if you HAD been doing it, you'd be linking THOSE mails, instead of mails where you and 20 of your closest buddies roll out in an AC gang, that just happens to have ONE blaster ship in it. I also vaguely recall you having said at some point that you had only recently gotten in to blaster ships, though it could be someone else waving the experience flag despite not actually having any that I'm thinking of there, tbh you all sound the same to me. That said, the point still remains, if you have experience showing that blasters are good, let's see it. An AC gang that does well despite having a blaster boat in it is not proof that blasters are good.
LARGE blasters, I have had the rax for years. As for those KM from the other night, someone asked for a link. It could have been just as likely I would have posted up my death. Quite honestly you have had KM after KM from many people and for all of them you make some sort of excuse to make it an invalid argument.
My favorate excuse is that the top pvpers dont count because they are better than everyone else. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:22:00 -
[196]
Originally by: baltec1
LARGE blasters, I have had the rax for years. As for those KM from the other night, someone asked for a link. It could have been just as likely I would have posted up my death.
Large blasters are the biggest problem when it comes to hybrid balance, and are the main weapon system that I base the bulk of my arguments on. If you're lacking in experience in the area in which hybrids are hit hardest, then you have no business telling people that they are fine.
Originally by: baltec1
Quite honestly you have had KM after KM from many people and for all of them you make some sort of excuse to make it an invalid argument.
Here's what a person arguing that from experience blasters are fine needs to have in order for his so called experience to actually be considered as proof: Several KMs, not just one or 2. Blaster-only setups, be it solo pvp or gang work with a bunch of other blaster pilots. Actual fights, not 20 on 1 ganks.(Ideally something where the poster is outnumbered, because it makes it much easier to prove that his weapon of choice performed well)
Originally by: baltec1
My favorate excuse is that the top pvpers dont count because they are better than everyone else.
2 things I'd like to point out about this statement:
1)You're conveniently ignoring the fact that I pointed out that most of the top pvpers do NOT use blasters as their weapon of choice, and finding a few that do does not make them balanced. If blasters were perfectly balanced, you'd have about 1 third of the people in that top 100 list using them as their weapon of choice.
2)You can't compare people who fall into the top 0.001% of the playerbase to the average pvper, and balance the game with that in mind. If you really believe that the problem with blasters is that people who use them suck, why aren't YOU posting countless KMs with them showing how you can take them into a fight outnumbered and still win etc etc etc. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:44:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Cambarus
2)You can't compare people who fall into the top 0.001% of the playerbase to the average pvper, and balance the game with that in mind. If you really believe that the problem with blasters is that people who use them suck, why aren't YOU posting countless KMs with them showing how you can take them into a fight outnumbered and still win etc etc etc.
So blasters act differently when this top line of pilots use them?
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 19:03:00 -
[198]
Originally by: baltec1
So blasters act differently when this top line of pilots use them?
Can you do what the guys at the top of battleclinic can do with blasters? And if you can, why don't you just go out and do that, come back here, post your top 100 battleclinic killboard, and explain how blasters are so fantastic. If you CAN'T do that, then, I guess you've answered your own question haven't you?
Balance that only applies to 0.001% of the player base is not balance. It's like saying SCs are fine, as long as you're in the top 2% of the player base WRT available isk.
Also you've once again conveniently left out the other part of that point I made again: compare top 100 players to other top 100 players; why are so few of them using blasters? |
Tyme Xandr
Gallente Dark Circle Enforcement
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Posted - 2011.05.23 19:04:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Cambarus :words:
I fly blaster boats and I have a lot of success with them when I fly with a large group of other ships. :D
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 19:33:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: baltec1
So blasters act differently when this top line of pilots use them?
Can you do what the guys at the top of battleclinic can do with blasters? And if you can, why don't you just go out and do that, come back here, post your top 100 battleclinic killboard, and explain how blasters are so fantastic. If you CAN'T do that, then, I guess you've answered your own question haven't you?
Balance that only applies to 0.001% of the player base is not balance. It's like saying SCs are fine, as long as you're in the top 2% of the player base WRT available isk.
Also you've once again conveniently left out the other part of that point I made again: compare top 100 players to other top 100 players; why are so few of them using blasters?
And now I must become one of the top 100 players in eve to show blasters are a viable weapon.
As for their useage, some people dont use them because they dont like them. But people do use them and get results.
Now, how about you answer me on why blasters used by elite pvpers are different to the ones you and I use.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 20:04:00 -
[201]
Originally by: baltec1
And now I must become one of the top 100 players in eve to show blasters are a viable weapon.
You're right, it IS much easier to put words in my mouth than it is to counter my points isn't it?
The point I'm trying to make is that you can't say something is balanced because a small handful of the top players can make use of them.
Originally by: baltec1
As for their useage, some people dont use them because they dont like them. But people do use them and get results.
Now, how about you answer me on why blasters used by elite pvpers are different to the ones you and I use.
In a stright up fight to the death, I am fairly confident that I could kill a 5 year old using nothing but a spoon, even if said 5 year old had a knife. Does this make a spoon a better weapon than a knife? |
Gabriel Karade
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.05.23 20:04:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/05/2011 20:05:10 Baltec, I donÆt mean this to offend but your credibility as a Blaster 'expert' is stretched rather thin from just a cursory glance at Eve-kill or Battleclinic. Maybe when you've spent more time and gained more experience, particularly of flying the big Blaster-boats then youÆll be in a credible position to come back here and tell us all how terrible we are and how blasters are 'fine'.
As I said, and you can easily validate this, I parked most of my Blaster-boats in the hanger long ago because outside of the improbable, ridiculous or just downright unlikely scenarios, they are about as much use as boobies on a fish compared to the competition... ThereÆs about, ooh, one gang type I can fly in where I sometimes get to embarrass everyone using my Thorax (no, that isnÆt a euphemism) but that hardly counts as evidence of blasters being æfineÆ. And the sad thing is IÆve gone from flying pretty much just a Blaster-Megathron to flying an Ares as the worlds most overqualified tackler û I guess most of the other old guys just got bored of waiting since 2008, said ôF***-itö and cross-trained.
(In that Thorax scenario, a Deimos is largely pointless due to vast cost difference, marginal benefits and ôlol! A Die-most! Kill it!!ö factor)
Bizarrely the one æbigÆ ship I do still like to fly is my Sin, which of course everyone else thinks is terrible, but hey ho.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 20:16:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Cambarus In a stright up fight to the death, I am fairly confident that I could kill a 5 year old using nothing but a spoon, even if said 5 year old had a knife. Does this make a spoon a better weapon than a knife?
And how exactly do they kill us as you would a 5 year old?
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 20:51:00 -
[204]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cambarus In a stright up fight to the death, I am fairly confident that I could kill a 5 year old using nothing but a spoon, even if said 5 year old had a knife. Does this make a spoon a better weapon than a knife?
And how exactly do they kill us as you would a 5 year old?
Way to avoid the point once again :D
Replace me and a 5 year old with a guy who has spent most of his life doing martial arts and a guy who has not, you have the same scenario. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 21:29:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/05/2011 20:05:10 Baltec, I donÆt mean this to offend but your credibility as a Blaster 'expert' is stretched rather thin from just a cursory glance at Eve-kill or Battleclinic.
I would hardly call myself an expert either. But I do know that blasters are not as crippled as our rather vexed friend would have us belive. Same as you would say the sin isnt as bad as people say. When I try something I dont just give it a go a few times, I spend months getting to know the ins and outs. I most likely know more about the combat abilities of the iteron V and Badger II than most in eve.
I simply do not see the issues some here complain about.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 21:31:00 -
[206]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/05/2011 20:05:10 Baltec, I donÆt mean this to offend but your credibility as a Blaster 'expert' is stretched rather thin from just a cursory glance at Eve-kill or Battleclinic.
I would hardly call myself an expert either. But I do know that blasters are not as crippled as our rather vexed friend would have us belive. Same as you would say the sin isnt as bad as people say. When I try something I dont just give it a go a few times, I spend months getting to know the ins and outs. I most likely know more about the combat abilities of the iteron V and Badger II than most in eve.
I simply do not see the issues some here complain about.
Your megathron, do some pvp with it that doesn't involve a 20 man AC gang. You don't see the problems because you've never actually depended on your blasters to win fights. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 21:37:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Cambarus
I simply do not see the issues some here complain about.
Your megathron, do some pvp with it that doesn't involve a 20 man AC gang. You don't see the problems because you've never actually depended on your blasters to win fights.
Because that is the only fight I have ever had with blasters
Originally by: Cambarus
Replace me and a 5 year old with a guy who has spent most of his life doing martial arts and a guy who has not, you have the same scenario.
So the guy who took the time to learn how to use blasters wins. Funny how that works.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:22:00 -
[208]
Originally by: baltec1
Because that is the only fight I have ever had with blasters
You've already admitted to not having used the mega for solo/small gang work. Go out and do it, if you're so confident in its abilities.
Originally by: baltec1
So the guy who took the time to learn how to use blasters wins. Funny how that works.
So you admit then that a spoon is just as deadly a weapon as a knife? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:31:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Cambarus
You've already admitted to not having used the mega for solo/small gang work. Go out and do it, if you're so confident in its abilities.
I have been using the Hyperion for quite some time.
Originally by: Cambarus
So you admit then that a spoon is just as deadly a weapon as a knife?
I say the guy with more experience than you is going to be better with the same weapon.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:38:00 -
[210]
Looking at all three turret types objectively, why use blasters? Compared to autocannons alone: + Slightly higher dps + Slightly better tracking - Fixed damage type - No range flexibility - Cap use - Heavier fitting reqs - Two plus points are pretty much only on paper
Really, if you had someone asking which turret type to train, how would you justify hybrids to them? _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
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