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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.28 16:58:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Von Kroll on 28/04/2011 16:58:26
Originally by: Songbird [ P.S. As far as fitting requirements - the ship that was meant for rails - the rokh cannot fit a full rack of 425 IIs without fitting mods.
But even with a Reactor Control taking up a lowslot, you still have room for 3 Mag Stabs and a DC. Plus, the tank on a sniper fit Rokh is the best of any of the other sniper fit BS. Now, that said, the DPS is pretty low, but the Rokh doesn't need more grid, or it would be OP when using other fits. It can fit a full rack of Neutrons without any fitting mods, and a very healthy tank, for example.
The problem is that if you boost the damage output of rails, the Gal gunboats would be OP because of their bonuses. Ignoring their other tradeoffs, rails already have very respectable DPS on Gal gunboats, at current engagement ranges. If you boosted the range of blasters, the Cal gunboats would be OP. CCP has a very difficult task ahead of itself with balancing hybrids, because, IMO, it will have to restructure the ship bonuses of both Gal and Cal gunboats in order to make whatever change work, unless they simply come up with two different long and short ranged weapons systems.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.28 18:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Songbird on 28/04/2011 18:34:31
Originally by: Von Kroll
The problem is that if you boost the damage output of rails, the Gal gunboats would be OP because of their bonuses. Ignoring their other tradeoffs, rails already have very respectable DPS on Gal gunboats, at current engagement ranges..
Right now gallente gunboats are non existent in the top 10 ships used. Are you really worried that putting long range guns with their poor tracking would make gallente ships flavor of the month?
Also rails do not have respectable DPS at any ranges. Rails have the second worst dps of all long range weapons. The guns with the worst dps( arties) have so much alpha that it doesn't matter. Rails are the worst guns in the game. Maybe you skipped my post where I showed that even a pirate ship(vindi) with superior bonuses has lower dps than amarr abaddon with megabeams.
Edit @ Straight Edged: Again - please post a fit with rails that gets 900 DPS at 60-120 km. I would love to fly that ship and am ready to spend billions to have it.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.28 20:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Songbird
Also rails do not have respectable DPS at any ranges. Rails have the second worst dps of all long range weapons. The guns with the worst dps( arties) have so much alpha that it doesn't matter. Rails are the worst guns in the game. Maybe you skipped my post where I showed that even a pirate ship(vindi) with superior bonuses has lower dps than amarr abaddon with megabeams.
A 425mm Rail-fit Hype can get 691 DPS with perfect skills and faction anti-matter at 36+30. With faction Iridium, you get over 400 at 86+30 or so. That's not as good as a Beam Abaddon, but certainly competitive. A 200mm Rail-fit Brutix can get 432 DPS with faction anti-matter at 14+13. Again, less than a shield tanked Harbi, but its also a Tier 1 vs. Tier 2 BC. Still, a competitive fit. But, if you boosted the damage of rails, both of these ships would get close to equaling, or surpassing their beam-fit peers.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.28 23:52:00 -
[34]
You can swap in T2 rails but i dont have the skills yet. With my skills 620 dps up to 110km 850 dps up to 60km (garde+plut)
If i can fit T2 rails, it will hit 650-900
[Rainbow Dominix] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Omnidirectional Tracking Link I F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Iridium Charge L Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Drone Control Range Augmentor I Large Drone Control Range Augmentor I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Bouncer II x5
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.29 00:41:00 -
[35]
For this type of comparison, its best to not include Drone damage, which I did not.
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Debrie
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Posted - 2011.04.29 00:54:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Debrie on 29/04/2011 00:53:56 well rails have least 2 things goin for em , range n reload
+
my 250 duals (smallest BS rails) also outdamage my nuetrons (largest BS blasters) from 12 1/2 km's out :p
blasters are awsome huh pathetic at range and cant hit what orbits /claps for ccp
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.29 01:33:00 -
[37]
Quote: For this type of comparison, its best to not include Drone damage, which I did not.
The sentries can shoot till 140km. Why would you ignore drones on a ship with a drone bonus
Obviously gallente will suk
Its like trying to evaluate Geddon, WITHOUT ITS GUNS |
Odo Ven
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Posted - 2011.04.29 04:18:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Straight Edged
Quote: For this type of comparison, its best to not include Drone damage, which I did not.
The sentries can shoot till 140km. Why would you ignore drones on a ship with a drone bonus
Obviously gallente will suk
Its like trying to evaluate Geddon, WITHOUT ITS GUNS
Keep it in ya trousers mate, he was using the mega/hype for comparisons and you used the dominix. He had every right to leave drones out for the former ships as they get no more out of drones than the geddon does with its 125m3 drone bay.
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AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.04.29 04:24:00 -
[39]
Well. dont fit rails on mega nor hype.
Hyperion is an active tank ship for different roles then snipers like domi or rokh.
Megathron is a station/gate camper which is awesome with hugs/rap support.
Stick to blasters please. And Blasters is fine within web range. Just stay friends with fellow recons and you should be fine.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.29 05:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: AristotleOnassis Well. dont fit rails on mega nor hype.
Hyperion is an active tank ship for different roles then snipers like domi or rokh.
Megathron is a station/gate camper which is awesome with hugs/rap support.
Stick to blasters please. And Blasters is fine within web range. Just stay friends with fellow recons and you should be fine.
Both the Hype and Mega can perform well in fleets. And that Hype I was describing was shield fit, not active armor, with over 100,000 EHP. The Hype is not much more effective than the Mega, except for a bit more tank, so probably not worth the increased cost, but both can be capable (notice I didn't say 'the best') with rails fit. Especially since the Mega gets the tracking bonus.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.29 07:56:00 -
[41]
Up to you i guess.
I'll stick to tested-and-true blasters for my megathrons
Not a fan of hype. But i heard they can tank thousands of dps.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.29 14:42:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Songbird on 29/04/2011 14:45:08
Originally by: Straight Edged You can swap in T2 rails but i dont have the skills yet.
With my skills 620 dps up to 110km
850 dps up to 60km (garde+plut)
If i can fit T2 rails, it will hit 650-900
fit
First of all garde 2s have 43km optimal with this fit so at 60 you definitely won't be doing 850. With all 5s and CN plut the fit shows 810 DPS. And if you do want your drones to reach the 60km mark you'd be using bouncers for 750 dps. Just for comparison an armageddon(tier 1 bs just like the domi) with the same tank and 5 bouncers could be doing 937 DPS at 60. And actually if I were at a POS I'd probably use it too.
As for fitting t2 guns - I don't think you'd be able to - with t1 you only need grid implant , with t2 you'd need 5% grid + faction modules +probably 5% CPU implant(depending on how good exactly are your faction modules- they might not fit at all)
As for the 110 km range - with all 5s, cn iridium(99 optimal) + t2 wardens(105 optimal) the fit has 567 dps. Even with 2 +6 implants to turret damage it has 595. I still don't see how you'd be able to get 620... Actually if you use a rattlesnake you can get close to 700 and 2-3 times the EHP.... alas no hybrids involved.
But involving drones was not the point - yeah sentries are awesome but the moment you as much as move 3cm your dps drops by more than half.
The point was the real rail ships - like rokh and even mega and the kronos - they all fail.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.29 23:11:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Straight Edged on 29/04/2011 23:14:37
Quote: Just for comparison an armageddon(tier 1 bs just like the domi) with the same tank and 5 bouncers could be doing 937 DPS at 60. And actually if I were at a POS I'd probably use it too.
good luck doing it with a 125m3 drone bay ship. You WILL compromise a lot to get it done.
The reason gila and dominix is so good at it, is because you can carry different flocks + many actual flocks of sentries.
You can easily withdraw drones to drone bay > warp off to another bookmark and the drone control will still fall under you , as in no abandon(its fine if the drone is 240km away, as long as the target is 120km away from you, and the drones are 120km away from him
And of course. good luck fitting omni directionals and drone control range to get geddon to shoot beyond 80-100km. Its drone boats ability for a reason.
So do you want to compromise a geddon to "be inferior then the dominix" in this role? or would you just fly dominix? A little buff to hybrids will make this particular fit way over the top. Any change in grid, or cpu, or drones, or dps. The last thing anyone wants is ships who blast 800 dps volleyed over 80km.
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The Forum Twins
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Posted - 2011.04.30 02:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Straight Edged Edited by: Straight Edged on 29/04/2011 23:24:52 Edited by: Straight Edged on 29/04/2011 23:20:46 Edited by: Straight Edged on 29/04/2011 23:14:37
Quote: Just for comparison an armageddon(tier 1 bs just like the domi) with the same tank and 5 bouncers could be doing 937 DPS at 60. And actually if I were at a POS I'd probably use it too.
good luck doing it with a 125m3 drone bay ship. You WILL compromise a lot to get it done.
The reason gila and dominix is so good at it, is because you can carry different flocks + many actual flocks of sentries.
You can easily withdraw drones to drone bay > warp off to another bookmark and the drone control will still fall under you , as in no abandon(its fine if the drone is 240km away, as long as the target is 120km away from you, and the drones are 120km away from him
And of course. good luck fitting omni directionals and drone control range to get geddon to shoot beyond 80-100km. Its drone boats ability for a reason.
So do you want to compromise a geddon to "be inferior then the dominix" in this role? or would you just fly dominix? A little buff to hybrids will make this particular fit way over the top. Any change in grid, or cpu, or drones, or dps. The last thing anyone wants is ships who blast 800 dps volleyed over 130km. Even currently, its sniping dps is 20%-50% more then the next best snipe ship, on top of having rainbow damage.
btw. there is two omnidirectionals. so bouncer is prefered above wardens, since the ship is designed to drop the sentries within 80-100km , and bouncers have 85+40 optimal
lol pvp domi fits definitely have 2x omni links. Yep.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.30 05:35:00 -
[45]
im sure scrams will work better at 80km. yup. darn sure :)
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Suzu Fujibayashi
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Posted - 2011.04.30 11:03:00 -
[46]
The OP is right. Rails need a buff. The problem as an hybrid weapon user is that you have only bad choices for mid range combat. ACs and pulses are really good in that range and I wouldn't rate them as close range weapons but as mid range ones. The only close range weapon system is blaster.
So if you want to fight with some range flexibility you need to use rails. But low damage and bad tracking makes them not competitive compared to ACs and pulses.
So my idea:
While ACs and pulses can fight at good ranges with their long range ammo, rails should do the same with their close range ammo. To achieve that I would change the rails so that the smallest tier turrets do the best damage. If you want more range you can choose bigger guns but will lose damage. Gallente can use the bigger guns because they have the damage bonus (and fitting) and caldari will use the smaller ones because they have the range bonus (but need the damage). Furthermore should there be a tracking bonus (not penalty, like now) for the close range ammo. The range penalty can stay, imo.
Ofcoures, there need to be a change in fitting requirements for the rails (especially the bigger ones) to make it possible to fit some kind of tank with them.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.01 01:28:00 -
[47]
Haha I love the idea - dual 250's with more dps and less range than 425's.
However the tiers of guns differ at fitting too - so if you're short on cpu/grid you can go 1 tier lower and still fit a full rack.
If you do need range the idea is to fly caldari ships - they all have the range bonus.
I don't know why the devs originally designed rails so long:
blasters/short <-->no gun/mid range<--> rails/long range
It should be :
blasters/short<--> gallente with rails/mid range<-->caldari with rails/long range
For lasers it is: pulse mf/short<--> pulse scorch mid <--> beams long
For projectiles it is: AC's short<--> AC barrage/mid<--> artilleries.
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