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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.05.03 04:17:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Aamrr on 03/05/2011 04:18:10 Now, I know that mining is a joke to most of you, but...
Without local, how is a miner supposed to defend themselves from a bomber uncloaking next to them? Bombers have no recalibration delay, and their scan resolution is quite good.
This is a particularly important question when the places being mined can be accessed without using probes of any kind (just warp to the belt). There's no combat probes for your directional to find. Just warp on top of the target, uncloak, and point.
There's a reason I don't use hulks in wormhole space. This would be even worse.
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Cyriel Longinus
Caldari XERCORE
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Posted - 2011.05.03 04:18:00 -
[32]
Believe it or not, in 2007, Local was nerfed on Tranquility for a bit. No one appeared listed in local until they chatted in local. The majority of the playerbase filed petitions that requested it be fixed.
The idea was tested and it failed. The had public spoke in favor of local chat.
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Aya Koji
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Posted - 2011.05.03 04:23:00 -
[33]
This is still a mmo , if you didn't have local you'd have no way to contact local people. I think just about every mmo has been able to connect with the people in the same zone as you.
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.03 05:49:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Spurty on 03/05/2011 05:49:19 I think the game would be more fun without any in game text chatting going on at all period. Just get on comms and grab your guns.
Don't want to talk to people? Thats fine, you're catered for, fly blind.
But you can't take without giving a replacement tool.
The replacement could just show 'total' people in system (i.e. have not left) even if they're off line, just make the distinction clear and up to date (no waiting 10 mins).
If people want to not show up in local, make that possible, but now they are effectively flying without medical insurance. Get podded and well, you wanted the risk, you got it!
Fizzt!
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Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:00:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Cyriel Longinus Believe it or not, in 2007, Local was nerfed on Tranquility for a bit. No one appeared listed in local until they chatted in local. The majority of the playerbase filed petitions that requested it be fixed.
The idea was tested and it failed. The had public spoke in favor of local chat.
Right. There was a bug - not a planned, documented feature - that people petitioned to have fixed. That's in no way analogous to a referendum.
.
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Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Aya Koji This is still a mmo , if you didn't have local you'd have no way to contact local people. I think just about every mmo has been able to connect with the people in the same zone as you.
And, if there was a delayed local (like in WH's) then there's no reason everyone couldn't win. .
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: death klokk So far from wat i've gathered:
the opponents to this idea feel as though ganking would be easier because:
1. people won't press d-scan because they're lazy and want everything automated from them. amirite?
Why is laziness defended in this instance and not in others?
For the record i'm on the fence about the idea, but i feel if they were to remove local, it should only be removed from null sec as lowsec is still technically "empire" owned hence the standing loss there. Nullsec systems where an alliance has sov should be afforded the opportunity to have a destructible scanning module that puts everyone in system in local upon jumping in or appear in local after the module has scanned the system. The mod could scan the system faster or slower depending on which version of the mod (t1 t2 named factioN) and by how well the system is upgraded.
Your argument is vaild only if D-scan can find cloakers. Otherwise AFK cloakers will hotdrop you and kill you despite what a frequency you click the button
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:13:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Go press the button continously for a couple of hours. Then come back and tell us what your experience was like.
Surprisingly similar to mining or mission running...
Mashing D-Scan is like Mining? Are we playing the same game?
Mining works like this: target rock, activate mining laser, sit back and enjoy a beverage.
Mashing D-Scan works like this: activate D-scan, activate D-scan, activate D-scan, repeat until button falls off mouse
There is no opportunity in the "activate D-scan" workflow for "sit back" or "enjoy a beverage". Now if D-scan was replaced with radar, it would be a different story.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:24:00 -
[39]
Originally by: fathitman This is almost as stupid as when they made warp to 0......
I love when complete idiots rage about warp to 0. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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A Little Girl
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:26:00 -
[40]
Rename "Local Chat" to "Local Radar"
Problem solved!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:36:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kogh Ayon Otherwise AFK cloakers will hotdrop you and kill you despite what a frequency you click the button
No they won't, by very definition.
Coincidentally, without local, the "treat" of AFK cloakers would be goneà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
hired goon
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Posted - 2011.05.03 09:39:00 -
[42]
LOL K-SPACE LOSERS
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.03 10:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: Hieronimus Rex
Originally by: Ghoest OP is stupid if he has to even ask.
No local favors hunters. If you dont understand this then you have never went on a gank run in 0.0
I heard pressing the directional scan button is very difficult.
Go press the button continously for a couple of hours. Then come back and tell us what your experience was like.
No more intensive than pressing the buttan to shoots da missiles
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.05.03 10:18:00 -
[44]
Removing local in SOV 0.0 would be horrible. It caters to the hunter and gimps the prey. People talk about spamming D-Scan while that is a option in any sov owned 0.0 the "prey" will d-scan and have no idea if that ship is blue or red/neut. Whereas the hunter can D-scan/probe and see how many prey there is in system. It works well in WH space because WHs aren't technically static so there is less traffic and generally you know who your friends are in system.
I could see delayed local in NPC 0.0 but for High/Low/Sov it just wouldn't work well at all.
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chaosyourgod
Minmatar Virtual Warriors IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2011.05.03 10:46:00 -
[45]
Edited by: chaosyourgod on 03/05/2011 10:46:40 what about this, if one wants to get to another system then that person is "tagged" by the jump gate and then put on local in the system he land in but say if one was to get to the other system via other means... say bridgeing, or slow boating it, then he would not get "tagged" in local because there was no way of "tagging" him.
this would boost covert ops and still keep local but the only thing i see wrong with it is that black op would be op...
the truth is but a lie |
android 737
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Posted - 2011.05.03 10:48:00 -
[46]
This already exists, move to wormhole space. Although, I find not having a local is a lot more dangerous.
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My Postman
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Posted - 2011.05.03 11:00:00 -
[47]
Some times ago i was living in wh-space for nearly 4 months. Over this time i felt that i was spamming d-scan for several million times. In fact this was the only reason for me for leaving wh-space.
Remove local from null, and, if you want, lowsec. But there must be a place where you should be able to relax without getting space paranoia. It¦s called highsec.
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The Old Chap
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Posted - 2011.05.03 11:30:00 -
[48]
Op's name: We****er. I LOL'd at the censorship.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.03 11:36:00 -
[49]
Originally by: baltec1 No more intensive than pressing the buttan to shoots da missiles
Since you seem not to comprehend on what the difference between the two scenarios are, I suggest you go shoot a missile every 5 seconds (no auto-repeat on) for say, 2 hours. Then come back to learn about auto-repeat.
And then I will ask you what you have learned. I won't hold my breath for that one .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.05.03 12:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Kogh Ayon Otherwise AFK cloakers will hotdrop you and kill you despite what a frequency you click the button
No they won't, by very definition.
Coincidentally, without local, the "treat" of AFK cloakers would be goneà
i saw an old skit once with a couple of guys planning on breaking into a junk yard. guy1: oh uh, there's a bull dog sleeping over there. maybe we should wait for him to move. guy2: you idiot, he can't bite you if he's asleep! now get in there!
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.03 12:21:00 -
[51]
Really those pro-AFK cloaking people are getting a kind boring by sticking strictly to: an afk cloaker is always AFK. Dont be an idiot, everyone knows what is meant. You cannot possibly put pvp ships in standby against an afk cloaker, considering how horribly gimped pve setups in eve are you do not stand a chance in a pve setup + full NPC dps vs a pvp ship, so you are pretty much ****ed. Now remove local and you are always in that state.
Lets see the results for removing local: Carebears are forced to hit dir scan button roughly once every 15 seconds (minimum time period to make sure you catch probes/incoming ship on scan, and in case of incoming ship you might still be too late in case of a fast one). No defense at all against black ops drops, and hell any SB gangs. If you cannot see why being forced to press a button every 15 seconds is horrible game design I got some bad news for you... Really funny then is that guy who compared it to him pressing dir scan during pvp fights (with which he means most likely ganks). That takes like 2 minutes max, really logical to compare that to pressing dir scanner for 2 hours in a row. Sure you press dir scanner during that fight to check for enemy reinforcements, but that is nothing compared to how often a carebear would have to press it, without any specific reason to press it.
Now we got the bots. They will indeed also become vulnerable to black ops drops/SB roams. That is exactly the same as a human player, both die to them without much they can do about it, (welcome to pve in eve, where you are ****ed when a pvp ship shows up), so not a nerf to bots. What we also have is the non-cov ops cloaked ships. Human players who do not want RSI/do want a life will die to them since they dont press d-scan every 10 seconds, bots do press it every 10 seconds (lol btw @ whoever wanted to use that to identify bots, you are forced to continiously press d-scan, but if you actually do it you get banned, maybe we should just line up for you so you can kill us?), so they are boosted compared to humans.
Then we got the pirates/gankers/whatever. Since some people apparently missed the eve guide, let me put it simple: They are pretty much not hurt at all by removal of local (especially in 0.0). Knowing how to find that carebear? Open dotlan, check NPC kills. Dotlan is down? Open sov window, check sov upgrades. But what about belt ratters? Press d-scan (yes once per system, nothing compared to what carebears have to do), if wrecks -> some pve'ing going on. (Systems without a belt near either incoming or outgoing gate are negligble). Missions/signatures? You need probes for them anyway. One press with deep space probe will show you ship signatures in entire system. In other words they pretty much arent hurt at all.
But that is good, right? Eve is all dark and pvp, so it is good to find many defenseless targets so you dont have too much risk, you dotn want to pvp where they can shoot back. Now the more realistic result, people are already whining about not enough targets both in 0.0 and low sec all the time, what do you think those remaining people will do when you make it easy to gank them? Yes move to high sec (i wonder if not the majority of these ideas come from high sec wardeccers). And who benefits from that? Bots. The best counter to bots is legit players. Empty wastelands is the natural habitat from bots. Just look at old providence, how many bots did run there? I am pretty sure the answer is zero, it was just way too busy for bots. So removal of local boosts bots in several ways, it isnt a nerf to them.
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Discrodia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.05.03 12:27:00 -
[52]
From my time in W-space, I can tell you that living without local can make you very paranoid. When every random frigate dropped in some long-lost POS has the potential to be a scout for a fleet who is going to rip you a new one the second they find you, you get pretty damn good at running and hiding the instant said scan result appears. And since Carebears tend to be more invested in their ships than PvPers, the bears would have more incentive to be better at detecting PvPers before said PvPers detect them. The carebears, therefor, would inevitably work to be one step ahead of their hunters.
As a result, I think removing local would make it even harder for PvPers to catch non-******ed carebears, as said carebears would be working very diligently at their directional scanners to detect the PvPers, while said PvPers might not even know their prey is there until said prey is docked up, in a POS, or the like. As a result, PvPers would whine because they can only catch stupid / unlucky carebears now, and CCP would say "Well, you asked to remove local so this is your own fault."
Ergo, I say that local is essential for both PvPers AND carebears. Both need it, but for different reasons.
However, if they were to remove 0.0, I'd support having a sov module that added it for that system (maybe with some upgrade like not showing alliance members in local unless they talk)
Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.05.03 13:23:00 -
[53]
I don't think local should be removed. I do think that it should show only those who use it. I.e. Players only show in local when they use the channel. Players who haven't typed in local do not appear in the channel.
Local is important as its the only way to talk to everyone else in system or 'broadcast'.
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Ospie
The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.05.04 01:31:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Furb Killer Really those pro-AFK cloaking people are getting a kind boring by sticking strictly to: an afk cloaker is always AFK. Dont be an idiot, everyone knows what is meant. You cannot possibly put pvp ships in standby against an afk cloaker, considering how horribly gimped pve setups in eve are you do not stand a chance in a pve setup + full NPC dps vs a pvp ship, so you are pretty much ****ed. Now remove local and you are always in that state.
In the times I have ratted to get sec up on various characters / occassional ratting for a large purchase I have either ratted / run anoms in a fit that can compete to some extent in pvp whilst also covering the pve side of things, it's really not terribly hard. The only time I was caught I traded my unrigged apoc for their pilgrim, that was a 2v8 fight.
Quote: Carebears are forced to hit dir scan....t some bad news for you...
It becomes subconsious/automatic after practise.. Look mah, my own habits work as well as a macro!
Quote: Really funny then is that guy who compared it to him pressing dir scan during pvp fights (with which he means most likely ganks). That takes like 2 minutes max, really logical to compare that to pressing dir scanner for 2 hours in a row.
Really? Ever fought 1v1's in active tanks? Those can take a very significant amount of time (far more than 2 min) with a much higher degree of concentration than any mission requires. Ever try 1v "many" in which you need to keep track of multiple entities? If they keep up the engagement I've had fights of this sort which last 10-30 min of constant attention. And guess what? I am still able to keep track of my d-scan every 5-10 sec or so. Also going to stress I constantly spam d-scan, exception being when I'm docked, it's just automatic now.
Quote: bots do press it every 10 seconds (lol btw @ whoever wanted to use that to identify bots, you are forced to continiously press d-scan, but if you actually do it you get banned, maybe we should just line up for you so you can kill us?)
I'm seeing a trend of you twisting what's been said and a demonstration of complete ignorance on your part here. Bots will be running a dscan every 10 seconds 23.5/7 which is a huge difference to the interrupted spam over several hours that a player will be doing. You are desperately clutching at straws here man.
Quote: Then we got the pirates/gankers/whatever. Since some people apparently missed the eve guide, let me put it simple: They are pretty much not hurt at all by removal of local (especially in 0.0). Knowing how to find that carebear? Open dotlan, check NPC kills. Dotlan is down? Open sov window, check sov upgrades. But what about belt ratters? Press d-scan (yes once per system, nothing compared to what carebears have to do), if wrecks -> some pve'ing going on. (Systems without a belt near either incoming or outgoing gate are negligble). Missions/signatures? You need probes for them anyway. One press with deep space probe will show you ship signatures in entire system. In other words they pretty much arent hurt at all.
I guess you're completely clueless about how long wrecks last and the existance of pos's, which sometimes house a good number of unpiloted ships (all shown on both dscan and as sigs when probing). You do realise that right now local is hopelessly skewed against hunters? Only a complete idiot (of which a good few carebears appear to be) can fail to see a neut/red in system the moment they show up. With the exception of a few bad luck scenarios (tackled by rats / bumping off asteroid etc) the only current ways a shrewd pver will get caught is when they're going through system gates or afk cloaker. Additionally dotlan / starmap aren't entirely accurate or updated, so are a guideline rather than an absolute which it should be, it is not what you are trying to make it out to be.
TLDR: Furb killer, learn your mechanics before you open your mouth.
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Sekket
Caldari White-Noise
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Posted - 2011.05.04 03:26:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Sekket on 04/05/2011 03:30:15
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Kogh Ayon Otherwise AFK cloakers will hotdrop you and kill you despite what a frequency you click the button
No they won't, by very definition.
Coincidentally, without local, the "treat" of AFK cloakers would be goneà
This is just being pedantic. Shall we coin a new term? Unfriendly Cloaked Loiterer (UCL)?
EvE badly needs a passive detection system other than local, but I always assumed that local was the result of a ship activating a stargate. Since FTL communication is possible within EvE it would make sense for all the ships in the system to maintain communications with all the local gates so they know what's up. But if you cynoed in or entered via wormhole what then?
edit:grammar
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death klokk
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Posted - 2011.05.04 04:39:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kogh Ayon
Originally by: death klokk So far from wat i've gathered:
the opponents to this idea feel as though ganking would be easier because:
1. people won't press d-scan because they're lazy and want everything automated from them. amirite?
Why is laziness defended in this instance and not in others?
For the record i'm on the fence about the idea, but i feel if they were to remove local, it should only be removed from null sec as lowsec is still technically "empire" owned hence the standing loss there. Nullsec systems where an alliance has sov should be afforded the opportunity to have a destructible scanning module that puts everyone in system in local upon jumping in or appear in local after the module has scanned the system. The mod could scan the system faster or slower depending on which version of the mod (t1 t2 named factioN) and by how well the system is upgraded.
Your argument is vaild only if D-scan can find cloakers. Otherwise AFK cloakers will hotdrop you and kill you despite what a frequency you click the button
OR... how about the scanning module i mentioned above sends out a pulse that decloaks the cloakies? That way, you'd be relatively "more safe" in systems where your alliance held sov and had an active mod.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.05.04 04:55:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Tippia on 04/05/2011 04:55:47
Originally by: Furb Killer Really those pro-AFK cloaking people are getting a kind boring by sticking strictly to: an afk cloaker is always AFK. Dont be an idiot, everyone knows what is meant.
Yes. Which is why the anti-AFK cloaking people are being ridiculed: because they're complaining about something everyone (even they) know isn't a problem. Maybe if they stopped being so coy about it and instead said what they actually meant, a meaningful discussion could be had.
Until then: AFK cloakers have never killed anyone, and in fact act as a much-needed counter to local. If anything, they should be buffed.
Quote: You cannot possibly put pvp ships in standby against an afk cloaker, considering how horribly gimped pve setups in eve are you do not stand a chance in a pve setup + full NPC dps vs a pvp ship, so you are pretty much ****ed.
Categorical statements are categorically false. "AFK cloakers" can certainly be beaten my a standard PvE fitting (not to mention that you can solve both the PvP standby and the PvE fitting problem by not going solo).
Quote: Now remove local and you are always in that state.
How is that a bad thing?
Quote: And who benefits from that? Bots.
Yes, bots benefit greatly from local since they can use it to provide 100% accurate, automated intel that they can respond to. AFK cloakers greatly subvert this tool and make such methods less accurate. Bots would be among those that would benefit the most if AFK cloaking was removed, and would be hit the hardest if local was removed. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.05.04 05:37:00 -
[58]
Of course, if one was to state the problem as "Dirt Nap Squad caught me off my guard again", we'd see that the "problem" is people not being prepared to face the possible threat of a hotdrop.
If a spool-up time was built into jump drives or cyno beacons, the lack of warning could be mitigated somewhat - but the cyno lighter would just pick targets they know they can tank for the time it takes the rest of the fleet to arrive.
At least the people who feel they "own" the system can rest in the satisfaction of knowing they'll have 20 seconds longer to wait until their ship is blown out from under them.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Gothikia
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Posted - 2011.05.04 07:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: We****er
Originally by: Ophie 1. Drop combat probe 2. Set probe range to 64 AU 3. Warp to next gate in patrol 4. Run scan while warping 5a. Stuff on scan? probe it down and kill it. 5b. Nothing on scan? Retrieve probe and jump to next.
Additional time per system? 10-15 seconds at most. Effectiveness of your suggestion? Negligible.
So removal of local won't have much effect on either one?
Remove it then! :)
Yea, I agree it would make things a bit tougher for many but the intel one gets from local has always seemed...unEvelike...to me.
THIS!! __ Gothie <3 |
Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.05.04 07:26:00 -
[60]
No threat from AFK cloakers? WTH, kk I see this system has a level 5 plug and just cloaked there for 30 minutes, then someone may just log in and start to kill anomalies, wow heaps wrecks and a golem on scan! Happy hotdrop. Then almost all of the people will back to high-sec in a week because there is no way to prevent this sort of lose.
Counter hotdrop in PVE ship? you kidding! Any a Bomber will takes a BS almost 10 seconds to lock on, then other dozen bombers jump in and kill you in the rest 3 seconds. OK you luckly enough take a bomb down. Feel happy to trade a bomber with any BS.
AFK cloakers should able to be detected by probe or D-scan, you can't locate them but there must be a way to see their existence otherwise it's just overpowered.
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