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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 15:29:00 -
[1]
Yes, I see the flames and the naysayers coming. Bear with me a moment here.
The Phenomena:
- Traders in EVE have been a secretive lot since the first one discovered they could reprocess AB1's and placed buy orders. That tradition is still going strong today.
- Nextly, traders in EVE have traditionally approached their business competitors in a cut-throat manner which isn't always the best solution to achieving profits. If you've ever watched the movie "A Beautiful Mind," you may be familiar with John Nash's Equilibrium theory which essentially states that two traders making the best decisions they can may not be the most profitable decisions and that by agreeing on strategies they may increase profits.
- Finally, anyone interested in getting into trade typically has to stumble their way through the learning curve and figure things out on their own. While responses on these forums sometimes provide valuable information, mostly the information provided is well above the capacity of the new trader and can lead to the new trader making massive financial mistakes.
The Hypothesis:
If traders were given a venue whereby they could:
- safely share methods and information with other traders with little or no fear of direct competition from each other
- where trading differences could be worked out to mutually benefit all traders involved
- and all traders involved, by pooling their resources, could establish a trading cartel
that all traders involved would be able to expand their trading capacity and that the net result would be an increase in profits for all involved.
Furthermore, if this cartel also provided training for new traders in the proper methods for maximizing profits that the cartel as a whole would benefit from the additional resources and potential insight that students would bring.
The Experiment:
EVE Trade Consortium [ETC] - An alliance for traders.
- ETC's premise is to give those small, one-player trading corporations just such a venue. A place where they can freely discuss methods and strategies while also pooling resources thereby allowing them to establish a trading cartel. ETC will provide a fair and just venue for dispute resolution while maintaining only a minimum of regulations. Traders joining ETC would also be encouraged to establish a mentor/protTgT relationship with those wishing to learn the art of trading.
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While I don't expect every trader to see the benefits of such a cartel, I do suspect there are many of you who do see the potential that working together can achieve. If you're an independent trader, whether alt or main, with your own corp established for trading or you're a solo pilot interested in learning trade and you'd like to take part in this grand experiment, please join the in-game chat channel ETC Public for more details.
EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.05.04 15:47:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Mark Hamill
safely share methods and information with other traders with little or no fear of direct competition from each otherwhere trading differences could be worked out to mutually benefit all traders involved
Lets say I join. How do you prevent me from doing the opposite of this? That is profiting off newer traders and taking any idea worth stealing?
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 15:51:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Fred Barbossa
Originally by: Mark Hamill
safely share methods and information with other traders with little or no fear of direct competition from each otherwhere trading differences could be worked out to mutually benefit all traders involved
Lets say I join. How do you prevent me from doing the opposite of this? That is profiting off newer traders and taking any idea worth stealing?
I think you know as well as I do that it can't be prevented. But, if you come into the cartel just to steal ideas and run I think you'd agree that you'd be losing out in the long run. Wouldn't the benefits of remaining a member outweigh any potential gains you may get from taking the ideas and running? EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 15:56:00 -
[4]
Interested, will contact you shortly ingame or via mail
Investor Relation | BSAC SE Listing |
Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:02:00 -
[5]
I think a small, shadowy cabal where you build tight friendships would be far more likely to succeed than a large, loose confederation, but it all comes down to instilling the right culture in that first few crucial days/weeks, so get you best politicking hat on and best of luck.
It would be cool as hell in terms of immersion/escapism if it worked.
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:05:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Elise DarkStar I think a small, shadowy cabal where you build tight friendships would be far more likely to succeed than a large, loose confederation, but it all comes down to instilling the right culture in that first few crucial days/weeks, so get you best politicking hat on and best of luck.
It would be cool as hell in terms of immersion/escapism if it worked.
In numbers of actual members, it will be small since most traders are 1-3 man corp's. As far as culture I hereby don the fedora. EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:11:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 04/05/2011 17:12:20 Unfortunately I'm far too busy to help you organise this, although it would be fun. However, I'd be happy to join as a member - I already make all my trade data public anyway and I can share my Jita spreadsheet with the club, in case anyone finds it useful. But it will be hard politicking to get this to work, I hope you are an EVE Machiavelli
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:19:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 04/05/2011 17:12:20 Unfortunately I'm far too busy to help you organise this, although it would be fun. However, I'd be happy to join as a member - I already make all my trade data public anyway and I can share my Jita spreadsheet with the club, in case anyone finds it useful. But it will be hard politicking to get this to work, I hope you are an EVE Machiavelli
You'd be welcomed with no organizational effort requred. Just join our chat @ ECT Public.
And as my buddy Nick once said, "I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it." EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.05.04 18:31:00 -
[9]
Well i am not HEAVY into trade any more but still do a bit to the left and right.The idea itself sounds interesting and i am gonna let it sink in a moment .
Basically you are talking scc lounge here but with the alliance tag it might give some extra options for coherent working amongst each other.
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790
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Posted - 2011.05.04 18:49:00 -
[10]
I think you would run into a "tragedy of the commons" scenario in which people grab the short-term, individual returns instead of long-term, community benefits.
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Rule18
Capsuleer Races And Violent Events Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 19:39:00 -
[11]
/me in
will contact in game shortly... only battery power atm :-/
on a side note, i'm curious if this alliance plans to organize and share market research efforts... i have a project or two on the back burner that i would love to see explored! -----Signature----- CRAVE, taking you beyond the capsule.
"If it can be named, it can be hated." -Rule18 |
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:22:00 -
[12]
Interesting idea, Mark. From the sound of your description, it's more E-UNIT ("EVE University of Trade", to reference a well known EVE entity) than "EVE Trade Consortium".
Although I'm a very casual trader - you can say I trade mainly to collect API data for EWA - I will think about it and might give it a try. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Florestan Bronstein
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 04/05/2011 20:35:58
so how are you going to punish the people who break away from the cartel?
It's usually individually rational to break away from the sort of (business) alliance you suggest so how are you going to prevent your partners from doing so?
I am from Germany which has a history of pretty stable cartels in many essential areas (coal & potash being the most famous ones but consumer goods were no exception from cartelization) during the late 19th/early 20th century but imho these only worked because they consisted of/were dominated by very few very large players who could credibly threaten to punish any single one who dared to undercut them by crashing the market below production cost for quite some time and because they were backed by politics & economists (because they guaranteed stable prices and employment which was deemed preferable to the boom/bust cycles of free markets).
I don't really see how your type of venture could retaliate against parties leaving the cartel.
If I were in the trading game and would believe your approach might be successful I would have my main join your cartel and would simultaneously set up an anonymous alt corporation to profit from the cartel (e.g. by forcing my main and all other members of the cartel to buy out my alt's stock).
Basic inputs for most goods (maybe except for moongoo and booster ingredients) is pretty hard to monopolize & industrial capability is plentiful.
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween Interesting idea, Mark. From the sound of your description, it's more E-UNIT ("EVE University of Trade", to reference a well known EVE entity) than "EVE Trade Consortium".
Although I'm a very casual trader - you can say I trade mainly to collect API data for EWA - I will think about it and might give it a try.
Be glad to have you. Hell, I'd even let you promote EWA to members. Now if that's not a trader making sacrifices...
EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 04/05/2011 20:34:34
so how are you going to punish the people who break away from the cartel?
It's usually individually rational to break away from the sort of (business) alliance you suggest so how are you going to prevent your partners from doing so?
I am from Germany which has a history of pretty stable cartels for many essential areas (coal & potash being the most famous ones) during the late 19th/early 20th century but imho these only worked because they consisted of/were dominated by very few very large players who could credibly threaten to punish any single one who dared to undercut them by crashing the market below production cost for quite some time and because they were backed by politics & economists (because they guaranteed stable prices and employment which was deemed preferable to the boom/bust cycles of free markets).
I don't really see how your type of venture could retaliate against parties leaving the cartel.
If I were in the trading game and would believe your approach might be successful I would have my main join your cartel and would simultaneously set up an anonymous alt corporation to profit from the cartel (e.g. by forcing my main and all other members of the cartel to buy out my alt's stock).
Basic inputs for most goods (maybe except for moongoo and booster ingredients) is pretty hard to monopolize & industrial capability is plentiful.
I think you misunderstand. Joining ETC doesn't mean you change your style of trading, what you trade, or even where you trade. Nobody will tell you you HAVE to trade in this. We may have to work deals in order to avoid clashing buy/sell orders but nothing more drastic than that.
But I don't see us monopolizing anything either. I see the potential to make some (as one member said) "optimizations" in the market, but nothing huge.
I don't yet see a situation where the alliance would have to retaliate either. Might you dupe a member into buying your alt's stock? Sure. Could you make a one-time flash-in-the pan deal? Yep. I don't think anyone who's signed up to this point is stupid enough to put their eggs in one basket though. So even if you did make a short-term gain, the question is, would the long term gains of setting your greed aside to work as a group have been better than that quick return? That's the whole point of this. To find out.
Could it go horribly wrong? Yes, it could end up as a previous post suggested, a "tragedy of the commons?" Will we be able to overcome the Nash equilibrium? Dunno. And won't know till we try. Just in the short time since I started this post, 10 corps and 2 pilots have decided it's worth the gamble though and I suspect more will come.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
790
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:12:00 -
[16]
Don't get me wrong, I love initiatives like this. I hope it really takes off; I just know how much everyone in Eve loves to look out for number one.
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Deen Wispa
Gallente Roughneck Regulators
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Deen Wispa on 04/05/2011 21:39:16 One word for you as to why you can't sustain this; Wardec.
There are tons of corps out there that will dec an indy corp for lolz and to have it fail. -----------------
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:47:00 -
[18]
Um...its trade. Why would you ever need to undock?
Investor Relation | BSAC SE Listing |
Deen Wispa
Gallente Roughneck Regulators
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Brock Nelson Um...its trade. Why would you ever need to undock?
are you saying that traders don't ever undock for any reason whatsoever? -----------------
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Brock Nelson
Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:02:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 04/05/2011 22:03:59
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Originally by: Brock Nelson Um...its trade. Why would you ever need to undock?
are you saying that traders don't ever undock for any reason whatsoever?
If you're a trader and you undock, you're doing it wrong. Every trader should know if they're going to do some hauling, either use courier or npc alt.
Investor Relation | BSAC SE Listing |
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Deen Wispa
Originally by: Brock Nelson Um...its trade. Why would you ever need to undock?
are you saying that traders don't ever undock for any reason whatsoever?
I do not think he was implying that. Even if they needed to trasnfer something from one station to another and they were under a wardeck, they are traders, and probably have the liquid isk to hire a neutral to undock and move whatever they need moved. Outside of that, wardecking a trading alliance might be one of the most boring options possible.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Stealing Honest
Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:08:00 -
[22]
Im on the fence about the ops proposal. Im going to have think about it a while.
SH
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Deen Wispa Edited by: Deen Wispa on 04/05/2011 21:39:16 One word for you as to why you can't sustain this; Wardec.
There are tons of corps out there that will dec an indy corp for lolz and to have it fail.
AH HAH! I knew this argument would come up. I was just waiting for it.
1. We're not Indy. We're not even miners, we're traders. We don't HAVE to undock to see the wallet flash.
2. We're not in one place. We'll be scattered across the galaxy, one here, one there, managing our trades. Finding all of us would be a chore. Locking all of us down, a bigger chore and mostly pointless.
3. Most traders are alts. Contracts, either with mains, other alts or outside sources and product gets moved.
4. Most traders are alts who FUND mains (or in my case, main who funds alts.) Some who've signed up are already impressively old. I'd imagine some of those well funded mains/alts would come aboard just to have a few lolz of their own.
No, we don't see wardec's as an issue. EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Zaveed
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Posted - 2011.05.05 01:06:00 -
[24]
I'm thinking that in a profession where the idea is to make your money from everyone elses laziness and/or stupidity, putting a bunch of hyenas in the same pen may not be the best idea.
Even so, I'm still very interested. (alt, new to the realm of trading)
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.05 01:21:00 -
[25]
Ill have a think about it also.
My primary concern would be if someone of ill-reputation were to scam using the alliance banner, (lets face it, 90% of uncollaterilzed eve bonds/ipo's are scams)& that some of the ppl interested in joining are running Bonds, that iCandy would get tainted with the same brush.
I do like the idea of a trading cartel being able to dominate certain markets, but with that power comes greater responsibility on the cartels behalf to ensure that the ppl involved get to see the profits & its not a self serving attempt at a mass sell out of there own stock for. e.g. pump & dump guidance systems.
Id like to see it up & running with some ppl that i know giving feedback. Ill join your public channel tonight if i remember & idle there.
best of luck with your Alliance.
Candy. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.05 01:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Zaveed I'm thinking that in a profession where the idea is to make your money from everyone elses laziness and/or stupidity, putting a bunch of hyenas in the same pen may not be the best idea.
Even so, I'm still very interested. (alt, new to the realm of trading)
From what I see, these are Spotted Hynenas.
"With the exception of the highly social spotted hyena, hyenas are generally not gregarious animals, though they may live in family groups and congregate at kills." - Wikipedia EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.05 01:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Candy Oshea Ill have a think about it also.
My primary concern would be if someone of ill-reputation were to scam using the alliance banner, (lets face it, 90% of uncollaterilzed eve bonds/ipo's are scams)& that some of the ppl interested in joining are running Bonds, that iCandy would get tainted with the same brush.
I do like the idea of a trading cartel being able to dominate certain markets, but with that power comes greater responsibility on the cartels behalf to ensure that the ppl involved get to see the profits & its not a self serving attempt at a mass sell out of there own stock for. e.g. pump & dump guidance systems.
Id like to see it up & running with some ppl that i know giving feedback. Ill join your public channel tonight if i remember & idle there.
best of luck with your Alliance.
Candy.
Quoting alliance rules, the second one we thought of -
Scamming - Blatant scams will not be tolerated by ETC members. While a valid form of trade, scams reflect badly on those who perpetrate them. If you wish to conduct this type of business, do so with an alt not in ETC. This does not preclude you from creative trading. By scams, I mean, for example, 1 Trit contracts for a Bil isk, misrepresenting contracts, etc.
EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.05 02:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mark Hamill
Quoting alliance rules, the second one we thought of -
Scamming - Blatant scams will not be tolerated by ETC members. While a valid form of trade, scams reflect badly on those who perpetrate them. If you wish to conduct this type of business, do so with an alt not in ETC. This does not preclude you from creative trading. By scams, I mean, for example, 1 Trit contracts for a Bil isk, misrepresenting contracts, etc.
Im sorry to say, but that rule doesn't stop anybody from running a unsecured bond/IPO & using the alliances good name/Reputation to gain funding & then defaulting/scamming.
The first one that scams tarnishes the alliance name.
Thanks for your feedback,
Candy. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Gei'neille
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Posted - 2011.05.05 02:41:00 -
[29]
I'd be interested in something of this nature. In regards to scamming, perhaps an alliance fund, that could be fully audited could be established to insure against scams. One where the trading corporations pay into on an agreed monthly basis.
___________
PCMTF ___________
Prospectus |
Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.05.05 02:42:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Candy Oshea
Originally by: Mark Hamill
Quoting alliance rules, the second one we thought of -
Scamming - Blatant scams will not be tolerated by ETC members. While a valid form of trade, scams reflect badly on those who perpetrate them. If you wish to conduct this type of business, do so with an alt not in ETC. This does not preclude you from creative trading. By scams, I mean, for example, 1 Trit contracts for a Bil isk, misrepresenting contracts, etc.
Im sorry to say, but that rule doesn't stop anybody from running a unsecured bond/IPO & using the alliances good name/Reputation to gain funding & then defaulting/scamming.
The first one that scams tarnishes the alliance name.
Thanks for your feedback,
Candy.
You're absolutely right. Therefore, let me state right now. NO member of ETC shall obtain unsecured public isk through bonds, IPO's or any other method. If you see a member attempting such, it is NOT with the permission of ETC or it's members. Private funding between the CEO of the specific corp in ETC and the lender is strictly that. They're free to deal privately in the name of their individual corp as they please. NO funding acquired by ETC members will be backed with ETC assets or guarantees.
Thanks for pointing this out.
EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
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