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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.04 16:21:00 -
[1]
Can someone explain to me why we haven't leveled the playing field in terms of tiers across all ship types? Why should a Prophecy, ferox, brutix etc be so much more difficult to fit than their Tier 2 counterparts?
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.04 16:25:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Can someone explain to me why we haven't leveled the playing field in terms of tiers across all ship types? Why should a Prophecy, ferox, brutix etc be so much more difficult to fit than their Tier 2 counterparts?
Same reason you do not put a jet engine in a jalopy.
0/10 --------------------------------- It seems quoting the CSM minutes in your signature is inappropriate content! Hurr hurr. |
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.04 16:28:00 -
[3]
0/10
Try harder...
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Joe Phoenix
The Commonwealth Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.04 16:28:00 -
[4]
Because i must have something to prove i'm better then you?
(faction fitted tengu)
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.04 16:28:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 04/05/2011 16:30:56
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Sader Rykane Can someone explain to me why we haven't leveled the playing field in terms of tiers across all ship types? Why should a Prophecy, ferox, brutix etc be so much more difficult to fit than their Tier 2 counterparts?
Same reason you do not put a jet engine in a jalopy.
0/10
The Maller/Sacrilege would like to have a word with you.
Joking aside, your comment really has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
*EDIT*
Clearly you people misunderstood what I was talking about.
Tier System refers to the capability of ships across their class.
For example, a Geddon is Tier 1 and a Abaddon is Tier 3. While battleships suffer less than the other ship classes, it makes some ships less viable than others across their class, like the Prophecy and Harbinger or Myrmidon and Brutix.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.04 16:52:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Edited by: Sader Rykane on 04/05/2011 16:30:56
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Sader Rykane Can someone explain to me why we haven't leveled the playing field in terms of tiers across all ship types? Why should a Prophecy, ferox, brutix etc be so much more difficult to fit than their Tier 2 counterparts?
Same reason you do not put a jet engine in a jalopy.
0/10
The Maller/Sacrilege would like to have a word with you.
Joking aside, your comment really has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
*EDIT*
Clearly you people misunderstood what I was talking about.
Tier System refers to the capability of ships across their class.
For example, a Geddon is Tier 1 and a Abaddon is Tier 3. While battleships suffer less than the other ship classes, it makes some ships less viable than others across their class, like the Prophecy and Harbinger or Myrmidon and Brutix.
Maybe I should have been more clear then.
The ships are a lattice work of checks and balances across the board to cover multiple facets of form and function, the Tier system is just a snappy way of labeling them to provide a sense of linear training over time, i.e. train Skill X another day or two, and get a more functional ship to zip around in, genius I know!
--------------------------------- It seems quoting the CSM minutes in your signature is inappropriate content! Hurr hurr. |
Silas Cooper
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mendolus Nonsense
That would make sense if the different tier ships had the same focus, but they don't. Ferox and brutix are turret based, meaning that players who want to fly a turret based BC are at a disadvantage right from the start.
Removing the tiers doesn't necessarily mean "make everything equal", but it would allow ships that have a different focus than the higher tier ship to be more viable. There is NO reason whatsoever, from a gameplay POV, to keep the tier system as it is.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:25:00 -
[8]
Engine trails?
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Chribba Engine trails?
Exactly. I can't heal stupid
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Lucas Schuyler
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Edited by: Sader Rykane on 04/05/2011 16:30:56
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Sader Rykane Can someone explain to me why we haven't leveled the playing field in terms of tiers across all ship types? Why should a Prophecy, ferox, brutix etc be so much more difficult to fit than their Tier 2 counterparts?
Same reason you do not put a jet engine in a jalopy.
0/10
The Maller/Sacrilege would like to have a word with you.
Joking aside, your comment really has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
*EDIT*
Clearly you people misunderstood what I was talking about.
Tier System refers to the capability of ships across their class.
For example, a Geddon is Tier 1 and a Abaddon is Tier 3. While battleships suffer less than the other ship classes, it makes some ships less viable than others across their class, like the Prophecy and Harbinger or Myrmidon and Brutix.
I might be wrong, but I was under the impression the "tier" system was more or less a Player made convention, and not a CCP convention, referring more to differentiating between older ships and ones that CCP released later on.
If that is correct, then naturally CCP didn't take a non-classification into account when designing and balancing.
The ships, while in the same class, have different roles and purposes. Any perceived imbalance is probably related to CCP being better at designing ships via trial and error rather than an intention to make the older model obsolete.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.04 17:46:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mendolus on 04/05/2011 17:48:15
Originally by: Silas Cooper
Originally by: Mendolus Nonsense
That would make sense if the different tier ships had the same focus, but they don't. Ferox and brutix are turret based, meaning that players who want to fly a turret based BC are at a disadvantage right from the start.
Removing the tiers doesn't necessarily mean "make everything equal", but it would allow ships that have a different focus than the higher tier ship to be more viable. There is NO reason whatsoever, from a gameplay POV, to keep the tier system as it is.
Tinkering every so slightly with small scale Tech 1 ship classes below battleship would not drastically or even marginally change what those ships are used for so there is no reason to bother, scalability denies CCP the luxury of raking over small tech 1 hulls with a fine tooth comb when enough people move into BS, faction, or T2/T3 in the long run anyways.
Besides what kind of balancing are we even talking about, Drake and Ferox have such simple and straight forward role bonuses, slot compositions, and attributes, that the only real difference is in their weaponry, and then we're back to rabble rousing over hybrid versus missile weaponry, which is a neverending battle.
I really shouldn't have to go through the list of base stats in EFT and point out that Ferox and Drake vary little across the board, here or there with 5-10% more natural shield peak, 800 more points, one more med slot, one more high slot, a bit more armor, bit more base cap, ...
I mean honestly, please tell me what you would change on the Ferox without it bordering on being identical to the base stats of the Drake besides having a different weapons complement? --------------------------------- It seems quoting the CSM minutes in your signature is inappropriate content! Hurr hurr. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.05.04 18:46:00 -
[12]
Because back in the day, a million (or ten) ISK was actually a fair chunk of change and there was some kind of value to be had in picking a ship that cost 30 million over one that cost 40.
àand then the industry and market evolved into fully functional ecosystems and those differences no longer mattered. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.04 19:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mendolus I mean honestly, please tell me what you would change on the Ferox without it bordering on being identical to the base stats of the Drake besides having a different weapons complement?
What you said plus I would reduce the skill requirements on the Drake to require BC I instead of BC II. Power grid and CPU might need to be tweaked.
There's not much reason to give the player two paths to pick from (hybrids or missiles) with the caveat that the missile ship has more slots, shields, etc..
As it stands the roles of both are pretty identical. The Ferox has an optimal range bonus. The Drake with HMLs also has long range. The Ferox can fit blasters for close in firepower, and the Drake can use HAMs. They both have the same speed and agility.
However the Drake has a damage bonus, a few more slots and better shields. Makes you wonder why the Caldari navy bothers with the Ferox and hybrids in general.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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d4refiner
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:18:00 -
[14]
Hooray, this thread again.
u mad it went to assembly hall and failed miserably? Just gonna fail miserably again. After reading every post you've made on the subject it's still incredibly unclear what you actually want. You should just give up already.
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Discrodia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:37:00 -
[15]
Some ships cost less / more minerals than others.
Ergo, those cheaper ships should be harder to fit than those more expensive ships.
Savvy?
Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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Kuronaga
Kantian Principle
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:42:00 -
[16]
Tiers.
They are in your mind.
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Saint Lazarus
Pwn 'N Play Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lucas Schuyler
Originally by: Sader Rykane Edited by: Sader Rykane on 04/05/2011 16:30:56 I might be wrong, but I was under the impression the "tier" system was more or less a Player made convention, and not a CCP convention, referring more to differentiating between older ships and ones that CCP released later on.
That kinda sums up perfectly how ridiculously outdated the tier system is, people think its a forgotton myth
-----------------
My EvE Comic
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2011.05.04 20:51:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/05/2011 20:51:49 There used to be a much more significant price difference between the tiers, so it made perfect sense that the more expensive high-tier ships would be better than the cheapest ships in the same class. Both tiers were good options, and you'd have to decide whether you wanted to spend the extra money for better performance. And then the market changed, 100% insurance removed any real cost difference, and now we're left with some ships that are just plain worse than others.
The only reason CCP doesn't fix it is because of inertia. The tier system has been here so long that it's just another one of those existing issues that CCP ignores in favor of producing more meaningless "features" to brag about. -----------
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:34:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Val''Dore on 04/05/2011 22:34:32 Have YOU shown YOUR support for Tiericide?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sader Rykane While battleships suffer less than the other ship classes, it makes some ships less viable than others across their class, like the Prophecy and Harbinger or Myrmidon and Brutix.
Less viable in what way? if i want a bait ship i fly a prophecy, if i want to gank a mining barge i fly a brutix, its horses for courses. I don't particularly want to pay more isk for these ships thanks so its fine just the way it is.
All this "everything should be the same" nonsense is ruining eve tbh.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.04 23:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Chribba Engine trails?
I really hope Chribba isn't turning into a bittervet. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Lt Angus
Caldari the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 23:41:00 -
[22]
scrap tiers, all it does is make a lot of ships needlessly weeker than they should be
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
theRaptor
Caldari Tactical Operations
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Posted - 2011.05.05 02:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin The only reason CCP doesn't fix it is because of inertia. The tier system has been here so long that it's just another one of those existing issues that CCP ignores in favor of producing more meaningless "features" to brag about.
Bingo.
Nearly everything wrong with EvE is because CCP gets bored and doesn't iterate designs for years, instead focusing on the fun of making new features. Other MMOs get annoying because devs are constantly tweaking. However, entire games have been developed and died between balance fixes in EvE. The only issue CCP regularly works on is lag.
If you are the sort of person who gets annoyed at massive uncorrected imbalance than EvE isn't for you.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2011.05.05 02:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Doddy Less viable in what way? if i want a bait ship i fly a prophecy, if i want to gank a mining barge i fly a brutix, its horses for courses. I don't particularly want to pay more isk for these ships thanks so its fine just the way it is.
Except the Prophecy is ONLY "good" as a bait ship, so everyone knows that if you see a lone Prophecy it's bait. End result: it's actually one of the WORST bait ships.
As for the Brutix, I really don't see why having a slightly cheaper suicide gank ship is better for the game than giving the Gallente two battlecruisers.
Quote: All this "everything should be the same" nonsense is ruining eve tbh.
Except nobody is arguing that everything should be the same. What we want to see is better balance between the choices. Even if ship A and ship B are equally "good", they can be better suited to different situations, or different playing styles, or whatever. Player skill and ship choice are still very relevant, you just don't have ships like the Prophecy where you could remove it from the game entirely and nobody would notice. -----------
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.05 03:15:00 -
[25]
The obvious solution is to introduce variants Why can't we have cheaper (minerals-wise) versions of Drakes, Myrmidons, etc with slightly worse stats, while aso having more expensive version of Ferox, Brutix, etc ? Call'em "Drake light" or "Ferox heavy" for all I care _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.05 03:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: theRaptor Nearly everything wrong with EvE is because CCP gets bored and doesn't iterate designs for years, instead focusing on the fun of making new features. Other MMOs get annoying because devs are constantly tweaking. However, entire games have been developed and died between balance fixes in EvE. The only issue CCP regularly works on is lag.
Argh, that hits the nail on the head. CCP has gang modules, rigs, and T3 modules that allow a ship's abilities, bonuses, and slots to be customized and/or tweaked. It's time they go the full distance and just combine these concepts into modular-esque, player driven ship design system to replace the current tier system of ships.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.05.05 05:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Chribba Engine trails?
I really hope Chribba isn't turning into a bittervet.
Never bittervet, always gladvet!
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.05.05 05:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T The obvious solution is to introduce variants Why can't we have cheaper (minerals-wise) versions of Drakes, Myrmidons, etc with slightly worse stats, while aso having more expensive version of Ferox, Brutix, etc ? Call'em "Drake light" or "Ferox heavy" for all I care
Hm.. can I have a Brutix Premium please? And don't forget those golden turret mounting points.
I wonder if stuff like with invented BPC on contracts would happen.. guys build 'cheap' ships like a drake with 2 high slots less.. that's a Drake Gimped I guess and try to sell them :D
Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody! |
Ira Theos
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Posted - 2011.05.05 16:26:00 -
[29]
Ships?? Spaceships? You mean there are Spaceships in this game??
Oh!... So THAT'S what those things were that were moving about the display....
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Mooney92
Minmatar Satanic Soldiers Adeptus Arbites
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Posted - 2011.05.05 16:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Sader Rykane Can someone explain to me why we haven't leveled the playing field in terms of tiers across all ship types? Why should a Prophecy, ferox, brutix etc be so much more difficult to fit than their Tier 2 counterparts?
Same reason you do not put a jet engine in a jalopy.
0/10
^^ nuff said, try harder.
"Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is 1 well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 |
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