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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.05.10 23:37:00 -
[1]
After the latest CCP null sec change, I realized I do not know enough about jump bridges to have an opinion on this. How exactly do they work?
They are at POSes, right? You go to one, activate it, and it moves you to its target system. Question: Where in that target system?
With 2 JBs per system, it seems it would be easy to have "two way streets" to make movement easier. With only 1 JB per system, it would be like having 1 way streets. But cities work with just one way streets. You would go form JB to JB, but only in one direction. To return, you would have to go through one gate to another system that has a string of JB's going back.
You could even imagine having each JB go to another system with a JB, and linking them all together in a big ring. Just go around the ring until you get to where you want.
Would that work?
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:04:00 -
[2]
Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
Fizzt!
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:06:00 -
[3]
True, but it's going to make logistics more inconvenient which might affect production capacity.
Stealth cap (production) nerf?
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:08:00 -
[4]
Whatever your idea is, I think you really need to look at maps and know what the key systems are before you dream up some intergalactic hyper way. It won't work as you imagine, but as it involves people being forced to touch a gate, those that have lived in lala land will proceed to poop on you
Fizzt!
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FlameOfSurvival
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
ur kinda mad?
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
So If I were to link to killmails showing what happens when bombers camp a jump bridge for a week and kill 1000+ ships totally shows no risk?
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:28:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 11/05/2011 00:32:39 The jump bridges are at pos s in a module about 5 k or so outside the shield bubble.
You enter a password and then right click on them in the overview and select the jump to choice . Each bridge jumps to one distinct and fixed system (i'm unware of the process to change destinations.. of course its done but idk how.. im unawre about how long it takes for a new destination to take effect.. i suspect change would require a whole new anchoring process for the mod)
Jump bridges are two way pipes and still will be from the annnouncment. You can jump to one system, realize you took the wrong jump bridge, get within 2500k feet, enter password (some flexibilty about when you enter the passoword) right click , select jump and go back.
Jump bridges require fuel, liquid ozone. There is a fuel bay on the module. Different ships use different amounts of fuel with bigger ships using far more than frigates, and the distance between the two terminals of the pipes (in light years which you can check on the dotlan maps naviagion pane) also is a large factor in how much fuel is used.
The fuel bay can only be accessed by player in the alliance that controls the pos. Liquid ozone takes up pretty much space in your cargo bay... a battleship would have a hard time carrying enough for 7 or 8 jumps and still have room for ammo and certainly cap booster 800s.
It is sometimes a problem when using an allied alliances bridge that runs out of fuel, for even if you have it (and there is often a secure container right there with extra fuel) you cannot place fuel in the bridge to jump.
The bridges are also set for standing in order to use them . I do not know the intricacies of that but if you have the password it is not enough to jump if you don't have the standing rights to use it (again im not sure if its standing or some seperate privalege list by alliance).
A neutral or red can have the jump bridge password and use that to access the inside of the poss shields to try to bump ships out, steal loose things etc, but still can't use the jump bridge. The jump bridge password and the pos password its attached to need to be the same.
Basically as it is now, you could have two jump bridges in a system...so it was a node in a street basically with two doors out.
The future rules make it more like connecting two culdesac in terms of the bridges but there will be additional ways out via standard gates.
Whether or not bridges should be nerfed is a big question that delves into lots of areas about what makes it attractive or unnactrative to play the game for people (too tedious to do logistics? not enough targets for roamers? advantage to large groups and encouraging huge empires? motivation to take space in that you can improve and less incentive to pay extra upkeep fees and fights if there is no benefit from owning it)
I do think that IF (huge if) there was a desire to greatly reduce jump bridges effect on the game, that the solution proposed is a pretty elegant way of implementing it. But it could reduce the number of players who want to live in 0.0 (and ultimately that could effect whether the people play at all... I would estimate that most highly active 0.0 players have two accounts and three characters on each account (and a large number of people who play actively have more than that) so if you see numbers like 6% of the pilots are in 0.0, that still might mean 30% of PLAYERs make 0.0 a significant aim and focus of their play time...often with the other players in support of the master aim).
The real test in my opinion is not if it makes sense from a fairness or an ideal world perspective but if after the dust settles, there are more or less humans and their characters (targets lol) there I suspect that a higher percentage of ships might be at risk but the drop in the number of ships active will net less targets, and less pvp. I suspect the anomolie changes already whacked the long term population in 0.0
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ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: stoicfaux True, but it's going to make logistics more inconvenient which might affect production capacity.
Stealth cap (production) nerf?
No it makes logistics a group undertaking again as the need for modest convoy OPs rises.
______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
Fix Lag
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:35:00 -
[9]
Step 1: Live in NPC nullsec. Step 2: Gank someone traveling in a convoy at a gate with your supercarrier. Step 3: Cyno back to NPC nullsec. Step 4: Post your :smug: on the forums.
Fix Lag! |
IsoMetricanTaliac 2
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:40:00 -
[10]
I am not sure where the JB's are that have this ZERO risk thing going on but just about every JB I have used has had people caught & ganked on it. Also I have seen many times where a blue fleet has been attacked by a Red fleet at a JB, once again I can't see how that would equal Zero Risk. (Of course if your in an area of space that has very little reds chances are they won't be camping JB's they will be camping Gates)
JB's can be used in either direction (eg. If you can jump from it to another JB you can jump from the other JB back to it so it is still a 2 way street just in the one general direction)
Personally from what I have been hearing this change/nerf may be the reason for the MOST people ever to end their EVE playing days. Is CCP trying to push everyone back into Highsec? (Talk about the minimal risk thing, maybe Highsec needs changes to make it less safe & easy to do things in? No that would never happen because then all the dwellers will cry & hold their breath)
If the changes are supposed to make playing the game better I know something that could do an even better job. Actually doing something about the very well known RMT'ing that is going on...
In a Time When Many Will Seek Death, There Will Always Be Those Like Me Who Won't Mind Helping Them Along Their Way!?! |
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
So If I were to link to killmails showing what happens when bombers camp a jump bridge for a week and kill 1000+ ships totally shows no risk?
This. The OP is painting an incorrect picture.
Many JB networks have perma-campers in bombers, cloaky dictors and other ships, culling the weak and unwary.
Additionally, it is not all that difficult to scout out a bridge and have a snipe HAC gang at the ready for a quick warp-in, alpha strike and warp-out w/o losing a single ship. POSes are completely under powered when it comes to handling smart and fast gangs with proper logistics.
This change adds two more points at which a traveler can be ganked: landing on the gate between bridges and jumping through that gate into the next bridge system.
People are hacked off because CCP is yet again proving that their sandbox environment is a fallacy. This change will require some null-sec entities to spend serious time re-working their bridge network in a relatively tight time-frame, all things considered. The player base isn't crafting null-sec in the way that they see fit. CCP is using a ten pound sledge to beat its null-sec customers into playing their way.
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ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:49:00 -
[12]
http://nc-jb-map.appspot.com/
While I find their network quite impressive, I also fail to see why NC is making SUCH a fuss about an added jump here and there. Granted, traveling it WILL become much more risky. As CCP intended. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.11 00:52:00 -
[13]
Edited by: ivar R''dhak on 11/05/2011 00:53:56
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara and have a snipe HAC gang at the ready for a quick warp-in, alpha strike and warp-out w/o losing a single ship.
Oh my.. If you let such efficient enemies roam freely and unmolested in your space, then you got a much bigger problem than tricky logistics. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.05.11 01:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ivar R'dhak Edited by: ivar R''dhak on 11/05/2011 00:53:56
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara and have a snipe HAC gang at the ready for a quick warp-in, alpha strike and warp-out w/o losing a single ship.
Oh my.. If you let such efficient enemies roam freely and unmolested in your space, then you got a much bigger problem than tricky logistics.
Hehe. Who said that I was the defender?
The point that I was attempting to make is that the current jump bridge mechanics have plenty of associated risk.
Pilots who falsely believe that they are safe because they jumped into a system and are sitting right next to a well-armed POS can be ganked. This happens all of the time and without a single ounce of CCP intervention.
Also, who hasn't seen suicide dread pilots or a super carrier cyno'd onto a tackled Jump Freighter for a fun kill? It happens more than you might be aware.
Anybody who thinks that the current bridge system is without significant PvP risk is smoking the good stuff.
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Arthello
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.05.11 02:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jack Tronic
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
So If I were to link to killmails showing what happens when bombers camp a jump bridge for a week and kill 1000+ ships totally shows no risk?
Yeah go ahead post that link please. Fact is that bombers seldom camp gates because a) it's boring and b) it takes effort, planning and huge amounts of patience to pull off. If you're lucky enough to get a fight just a few properly fitted ships can kill off droves of bombers easily. You don't often get good fights in bombers. It's just about the ganks and griefing the large alliances/coalitions.
If you think bombers camping your precious jb was such a huge problem why are you whining so much? CCP is doing you a favour by drawing off traffic. Spurty is 100% correct. 0.0 should be dangerous. If you travel in 0.0 you better know what you're doing beyond warping to the next jb. All those sweet bitter tears are just reassuring everyone, CCP included, that this is a long overdue buff to PvP that should've been made ages ago. Cry moar please I still have room for a few more bitter tears.
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Tel'me Am Peur
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Posted - 2011.05.11 02:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
This should be sticky'd.
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Martyr Theos
The NecroMonger Faith
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Posted - 2011.05.11 02:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tel'me Am Peur
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this.
You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
This should be sticky'd.
**************
and if the proposal discussed in this thread
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1509118
were adopted... it would all go BOOM ! "Got License?" - TNMF |
Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.05.11 09:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Arthello Fact is that bombers seldom camp gates because a) it's boring and b) it takes effort, planning and huge amounts of patience to pull off. If you're lucky enough to get a fight just a few properly fitted ships can kill off droves of bombers easily. You don't often get good fights in bombers. It's just about the ganks and griefing the large alliances/coalitions.
so all this crap is about only lazy piwates who don't want to spend some effort and planning to get kill?
Don't you want to make Eve stupider do you?
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.05.11 11:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Spurty Imagine this. You undock with your sea of blues in local (zero risk) You warp to a pos (zero risk) usually directly to the jb module You activate module and appear In a new system (possibly different region) with zero risk You warp to the next module on the next pos within the same system, to the jb module, activate and appear in the next system / region Repeat Repeat Check map, you have crossed 50% of the map an never once saw a gate, never once got dragged by a bubble, never saw anyone on your overview becuase you avoided all combat areas with zero risk in minutes
Now feel free to act all butt hurt as if CCP doesn't realize that this is dumb and kills competition / combat.
**** and moan like old people that are upset bingo is stating 5 minutes later than
it sounds good in theory... but in practice none of what you said is true.
besides whats been mentioned here about camping the JB itself, finding a JB system without much local activity lends itself to putting a bubble BETWEEN two gates - allowing you to take your time with whatever ship that lands in it; without worrying about POS guns (as if they would have done anything anyways...)
further, some of those "risk free" blues are reporting your movements to their buddies on the other side of the gate/JB, or even waiting to attack you themselves. the fact that you THINK its risk free is the very thing that will be used against you. never let your guard down.
plus, last i knew (unless they fixed it), if you know the JB password you can get inside the POS shields. and when you come back out the guns think you're friendly - thus creating yet another false sense security for the victims.
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Arthello
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.05.11 11:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
Originally by: Arthello Fact is that bombers seldom camp gates because a) it's boring and b) it takes effort, planning and huge amounts of patience to pull off. If you're lucky enough to get a fight just a few properly fitted ships can kill off droves of bombers easily. You don't often get good fights in bombers. It's just about the ganks and griefing the large alliances/coalitions.
so all this crap is about only lazy piwates who don't want to spend some effort and planning to get kill?
Don't you want to make Eve stupider do you?
No it's not and there's nothing more dumbifying than giving derps a means to play in 0.0 with virtually zero risk. If you want to play in nullsec you should take the consequences. I hate bombers and I hate fighting opposing gangs on their POS while their guns are using my nipples as target practice. JB made EVE stupider and this is remedying a part of it. They should remove those bridges altogether in my opinion.
Cry more...
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:01:00 -
[21]
@OP: You link two bridges and they make up a two-way connection. Enter at one bridge, come out at the other. Previous allowed for a complete replacement of gate system, the changes means that every bridge hop requires at least one regular gate be used before another hop can be done. Would love to see the statistics for gate activations pre/post change (map stat tallies bridge use as jumps as well as gates if I recall) .. I bet there are some gates even in populated space that are not used for days at a time
Originally by: Arnakoz it sounds good in theory... but in practice none of what you said is true...
Maybe not 100%, since there are always a bit of exaggeration as in all things, but it is pretty damn close to truth.
The number of deaths on JBs is probably lower than the amount of noobs who die to sentry fire in rookie systems
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:09:00 -
[22]
Oh, wait a minute, I see the effect now (not a null sec guy here)... by only allowing one jump bridge per system, any long travels will require you to use a regular gate to get to the next system with a jump bridge to go further, correct? Currently you can jump from bridge to bridge without needing to use the gates at all?
Wow, I kind of love it. Just the chaos I imagine it causing as everyone tries to rebuild jump networks... it's beautiful. Amid chaos, expect deaths.
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Outouchmatralala
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:22:00 -
[23]
Please remove jump bridges!!!!!
I asked nicely!
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.05.11 12:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Maybe not 100%, since there are always a bit of exaggeration as in all things, but it is pretty damn close to truth.
The number of deaths on JBs is probably lower than the amount of noobs who die to sentry fire in rookie systems
depends on the space, sure. but if you've ever lived in pureblind/NC space you probably wouldn't be saying that. not only were the JB's camped more often than the gates, but since you aren't cloaked on entry its even that much harder to escape. the only thing the JB's were good for was making travel faster. but you still needed a scout and intel just the same.
however, while there was more risk per jump, there were fewer jumps.... so *total* risk from A to B is less (in most cases.) just not "risk free" as the OP stated. or even close. further, considering the amount they pay for those JB's (and the time/ISK keeping them fueled) i would say the lowered risk is deserved.
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Hyperforce99
Gallente Infinite Covenant Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.05.11 13:06:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 11/05/2011 13:07:10
I'd rather see this happen with Jump bridges. (Someone else came up with the idea, but I don't know who.)
Quote: Jump Bridges
Passwords for jump bridges will also be removed and access managed through standings. The mechanics for initiating a bridge jump will be changed as well.
Similar to Wormholes, a jump bridge will be limited in the amount of mass a jump bridge will be able to transport. This mass limit will regenerate naturally, or û by adding liquid ozone to a portal reactor û at an vastly accelerated rate. What this means is that everyday logistics will not be hampered, but it will no longer be possible to quickly transport huge fleets across several regions in a matter of minutes. Transporting these fleets will still be possible, but it will be spread out over a longer period of time. This also has the side effect that supercapitals are no longer able to use jump bridges.
This, sounds like a much better and easier to adjust idea...
- It does the same thing for capital ships as the current change as capitals will rapidly consume up the jump bridges mass rendering them ineffective and actually adds a proper reason why jump bridges shouldn't be used by capitals. Though it does still allow limited capital movement through systems with cyno-jammers installed.
- It limits massive sub-cap fleet movements without hurting defensive response or single ship movements.
- Its an improvement to the fuel mechanic without removing the need for fuel.
CCP I suggest you take another look at this idea. --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/ |
Sir Bear Carington
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Posted - 2011.05.11 14:53:00 -
[26]
Ccp is taking carebears out of null.
Adapt and evolve. |
Iulia Badr Marinela
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Posted - 2011.05.11 15:06:00 -
[27]
CCP is influenced yet again by PL. |
Milla Lekarariba
Minmatar Syndicated Systems ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.05.11 15:19:00 -
[28]
Move along... no nerf to see here...
This is seriously a minor nerf, and sounds like a good one
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Nestor Laurenitis
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.05.11 15:31:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Nestor Laurenitis on 11/05/2011 15:30:59
Originally by: IsoMetricanTaliac 2 Personally from what I have been hearing this change/nerf may be the reason for the MOST people ever to end their EVE playing days. Is CCP trying to push everyone back into Highsec?
If you can't live in null sec without a contiguous chain of jump bridges, or without jump bridges at all, then you need to learn how to live in null sec.
Alternatively you can wale and nash your teeth here and threaten to quick EVE. (Please choose this option)
SOV alliances will still have a significant strategic advantage in their own space after this change and the number of ships that explode in space will increase. Good move by CCP.
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Kharamete
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.11 15:51:00 -
[30]
This change seems to be in part of an overall plan from CCP to stop people importing everything in null from Jita, tbh.
That said, CCP will remove jump freighters from null if they can't jump into systems that are cynojammed. ---
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