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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.05.15 14:54:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai Edit: I strongly dislike you right now Tippia. Just want you to know that.
Don't worry, I'll be here tomorrow. Go sleep. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:00:00 -
[62]
Originally by: J Kunjeh Ummm....what's leveling?
Open your character sheet.
Tab Skills.
Fill your skills Que.
Logg off.
That's it, you're levelling.
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:02:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Mith'riin
And yes, as an 6 months old player i can say that the only thing i can fly "Ok" is a Tengu, and it's barely "Ok". You would say "Yay yay, you are flying a t3 after 6 months!". But....hello! This game isn't about one ship.
You can fly a tengu. Now go train Logistics to IV. Instantly, you are in high demand with any corp you care to think of.
Quote:
Before the tengu any serious corp would deny me when the question "What can you fly in pvp?" answer was "Drake". I couldn't fly anything. And, don't kid yourself. No, there's no serious corp out there that will take your 1m sp noob rifter to a gang. Ceptor and above they will ask for. Logistic is not an easy role to train for quick and be succesfull. The only thing you can really do is recon/tackle and in order to do that in an effective way, you will have to train at least 2 months.
Go to eve uni, go from there to a decent corp. They should be happy to show you the ropes; and any corp not letting tacklerifters come on ops isn't worth bothering with. It takes around eight hours to get into a rifter with a scram, perfect for tackle/bait/scout. You'll die, a lot, and probably get showered with isk for your troubled.
Quote: Then, there are the cta's. "Bring HAC's, Bs, ceptors"...And you start wondering yourself.."So...i can't fly any ship they ask for, what do i play in this corp ? How i can help them ? ". The answer is simple, you can't.
Every CTA I've seen asks for tackle frigates. They might be a way down the list, but they're always there. You always need fast tackle on CTAs. Find a better alliance is all I have to say really.
Quote:
So no, althought "Isk for sp" is a bad idea (And already up and running due to the character bazaar) this game need some sp multiplier for the lower sp brackets, something like a x2 training sub 4m Sp, x1.5 training sub 10m Sp, x1.2/1.3 training sub 20m sp. You CAN'T do ANYTHING well in this game sub 4m Sp (Again, please, don't come with the rifter idea ever again).
You can be in a drake in three weeks. That's a CTA capable reimbursable one. You can do plenty with low SP, not alone, sure, but I have 30 mil SP and there's not a lot I can do alone (I am bad at eve)
Quote:
Every succesfull and old game, everyone of it, including Lineage II which was a korean grind bot paradise had it leveling method aliviated expansion after expansion. Eve fails to deliver that.
Oh.....And yes, i'm 6 months old. Give some t2 minnie ships to fly and let me show you how you aren't a special snowflake godly pvper, you only have the sp to do that :3.
And...no, i'm qqing about "QQQQ WHY CAN OLDER PLAYERS USE CAPITAL SHIPS AND I CAN'T", i'm qqing about that after 6 months i can only fly ONE ship at a reasonable level, and other two ships (Drake/Raven) at a subpar level.
I'll lend you my Jaguar. you can probably kill most of my battleships with it if you do it right. The 'one ship' (seriously, you have cruiser V, train HACs, logis, recons, HICs, anything! They're great ships!) you can fly is a rather powerful one, not to mention expensive, and from where you are, you can go anywhere, pretty easily.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:02:00 -
[64]
I've been levelling door frames today, if that helps.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:08:00 -
[65]
Edited by: JC Anderson on 15/05/2011 15:10:03 New players train at double speed... Or at least they did unless that has been changed recently.
I haven't made a new character since 05/06 and the accelerated training change was implemented much later so I am not sure of the details.
Ahh here it is. Though as I said, I am unclear as to if it's still working this way.
New characters now receive a bonus to skill training speed when under a specific SP level. This is to account for the removal of many of the automatic starter skills. The bonus is temporary and only until the player catches up with "modern" characters (i.e. those that start with 800k skill points today). Namely, the player gets a 100% bonus from creation and until he reaches 1.6 Million Skill Points, regardless of the time that takes. A player is shown his current % bonus to his skill training in the character sheet underneath the total amount of skills and skill points.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:11:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Serpents smile on 15/05/2011 15:12:32
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai Its kind of funny how hurf durf people get when anyone mentions $$/ISK for SP. It can already happen with the plex system and character bazaar. So whats the difference? Iam not for the idea by all means, I just find it funny how defense people get whenever its brought up.
I think why people get defensive is that every time this comes up it's because whoever brings this up compares EVE to whatever clone of wow is out there. And you cannot compare apples with oranges. And with the character bazaar, someone took the time to train these characters. If you go the SP for isk route you take the time part out of the equation. The thing is also that EVE *IS* a time consuming game, less then before tough, no more learning skills, and remember how long it took you to online an entire Battlestar POS? There is no real need to speed things more up because Jack or Jill have a short attention span.
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
However this thread does bring up a good point and that is how **** it is to start fresh in this game.
Really? I loved it. I started over a few times on a few alts but I never got to the same excitement I experienced when I started in my first weeks. I never looked at other players and moaned, *oh gosh, I'll never get there*. I watched, in a little bit of envy tough, how they flew marauders and such. Then I looked at the required skills and I was like *gasp*, this will take a bit or I'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO GET THERE!. Fast forward my main has now 45 mil SP is in a 0.0 alliance and I still cannot fly a marauder, because I figured out, I do not need it. I don't even want it. Unless someone gives it to me, that is. Then I'll sell it.
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai
Even with the advancements in NPE, its still clear why most people quit. CCP really needs to bring back the starter professions and starting 900k(hell bump it up to 1.5m). Give new players a head start and at least SOME direction other then the random ****ty skillbooks you get in the tutorial.
Almost all games start at a lower level. To get you used to the interface and mechanics, then slowly things get more difficult with each level. What way you view how people start in EVE, giving people more SP is not something that will help them. Simply because they haven't got a clue what to do with them. Same goes for noobs buying characters from the bazaar and then flying out in their carrier, to be killed only moments later. Not because they lack SP but they lack experience. And there is no way you can compensate for that. They either pick it up or move on.
Like I met people who just gave up on EVE after they could fly almost anything, except stuff locked out of high sec or what appeared to be a big carebear who now turned into a highly specialized pirate, with only a fourth of my SP, who still is playing the game.
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John Comer
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:13:00 -
[67]
now lets say ccp would do this and say (as example) 1 sp = 1000isk
now me as a veteran player can spend 300 bil isk(without even denting the wallet) to buy all skillpoints I miss and have everyhting at level 5
now where would that leave you?
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Mith'riin
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:17:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Danika Princip
I'll lend you my Jaguar. you can probably kill most of my battleships with it if you do it right. The 'one ship' (seriously, you have cruiser V, train HACs, logis, recons, HICs, anything! They're great ships!) you can fly is a rather powerful one, not to mention expensive, and from where you are, you can go anywhere, pretty easily.
Oh, no, really. I didn't want to do mindless QQ. Like you said, really, now the doors are open to me. I can be in any cruiser related ship in about 1-2 months of training. I'm not qqing about myself. I lived in 0.0, and now i'm in a wh corp (A great one from what i'm seeing). It took me 6 months to start seeing what this game has to offer, but from this point i can really branch out my character in whatever direction i want to take.
My point was that the "Branch" out time should be about 2-3 months top, not for ME, but for the other short attention span players that need to fly something nice, and fast. 2-3 in almost any mmorpg is enough to start enjoying it. It doesn't happen to eve anyway xD
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.05.15 15:31:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mith'riin My point was that the "Branch" out time should be about 2-3 months top, not for ME, but for the other short attention span players that need to fly something nice, and fast.
And that is the heart of the matter: why should the game cater to the short attention span player? In particular, why should the NPE cater to short attention span players, when the rest of the game does not? That's awfully bait-and-switch:yà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Leetha Layne
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Posted - 2011.05.15 16:55:00 -
[70]
Just another "I have RL money and want more epeen." thread. Are there mods on these forums?
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Tzigan Jegos
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:12:00 -
[71]
I stopped reading at 'leveling.' |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:21:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Leetha Layne Just another "I have RL money and want more epeen." thread. Are there mods on these forums?
They are busy trolling macro miners.
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:24:00 -
[73]
As much as the OP is a phenomenally epic bad idea, I expect to see it in a patch soon.
A few friends together can defeat that T2 toy with tech 1 frig gear. I started a corp that proved that and it remains true to this day.
-- Founder of Agony Unleashed but NOT currently CEO of it. Opinions expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily represent opinions of AGONY. |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:26:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kerfira Stop thinking in WoW terms...
Originally by: Ruby Udders EVE's endgame...
Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Sig Sour
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: J Kunjeh Ummm....what's leveling?
Open your character sheet.
Tab Skills.
Fill your skills Que.
Logg off.
That's it, you're levelling.
No that is skill training.
Brink has leveling. It is where you shoot stuff and get XP and gain levels and abilities. Eve doesn't have that. It is hard for people to get a grip on that an MMO doesn't have that, paradigm thinking anyone?
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Diablo Ex
Caldari Reasonable People
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Posted - 2011.05.15 18:51:00 -
[76]
If anything Skill level progression happens too fast for many players, a small majority even. I often see players who have the "skillz" to fly ships that they have no business trying to pilot because of a lack of keyboard time. They go to the character bazaar, buy a highly skilled toon, search E-bay for a T3 ship (Tengu), immediately Fail fit the thing and cry foul in local when a T1 cruiser gang shreds it.
EvE is about social networking, even the most highly skilled Solo-Ninja Epeen Lords hit a glass ceiling if they can't be social enough to be in a corp or alliance. I've seen some out there in space that are so anti-social that they have a multi-page corp history list, even the Orphans have rejected them. I've seen fresh noobs, three days out of training, flying tackle rifters and getting onto nice kill mails. The OP needs to HTFU or go home. ---
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Scarlet des Loupes
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2011.05.15 19:02:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Diablo Ex If anything Skill level progression happens too fast for many players, a small majority even. I often see players who have the "skillz" to fly ships that they have no business trying to pilot because of a lack of keyboard time.
Yes that¦s mainly due to:
1. You don't have to play the game to get the skills; 2. Ship prereqs are ridiculously low so people can fly ships but not fit them.
You can just pay a year of subscription and skill up without getting any experience. It's a weird mechanic.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.05.15 19:21:00 -
[78]
Originally by: James Vorhee Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 08:56:05 Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 08:55:49 There are so many things I want to do, but so little I will be capable of doing in a decent timeframe.
Although on some level it makes sense for CCP to want to make it impossible for anyone to truly finish leveling, at the same time it's also a major barrier of entry to newer players who have no method of being competitive other than waiting around for several years.
Another option could be to introduce a curve whereby low skilled characters have learning multipliers that gradually disappear as they reach a certain amount of of skill points (That number could be set on a ratio of the average skillpoints of every character in the game)
make the game more inviting to those who aren't already entrenched.
You have so many things to want to do --- tha means you'll have lots to do... you can't do them all in a short period but ever month you'll be able to do more and be able to enjoy that content then.
As for being competitive as soon as you can work the directional scanner you can be a important part of the competition even in a noob ship.. scouting, or covert opsprobing or getting warp ins are absolutely vital even if you had a fleet of all players wwtih 70 million sp one fo them would need to play that role that can be done very well with only 2 months worth of sp.
Does the best defensive back.. maybe a pro-bowler or even hall of fame member need to be able to play quarterback or lineman to be called competitive?
As for your idea of accelerating training, see my point about cloakers and also play around with evemon and you'll discover that it takes less than a 1/4 of the time to train to level 4 in a skill than it does to level v ... smaller weapons and basic skills of tackling and tanking and power grid train far quicker than advanced ships and skills. It is like you say .. how many games can you play along with people who've got characters that have a zillion times more experience or hours of play...without grinding thousands of hours.. just messing aroudn withs stuff with them for a few months.
As for your last point.. making it attactive... there is a large percentage of gamers who don't have clue about team competition and thing its about being better individually than the others.
This is a multi player game with its own quirks and niches .. all games don't need to be the same...there are pro'x and cons of different decision making and that doesn't mean all games should take the middle of the road bland but that some games should stake out different ends of the spectrum.
Changing a team that gives you a multi year sense of history developoing yoru character to meet the needs of wimps that need epeen stroking who want to move from game to game doesn't promote along term health of the game.
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.15 19:38:00 -
[79]
Sadly OP is poor troll, he alleges reading comprehension of Greek and Latin so he cannot be so stupid not to understand a sandbox mentality and how eve works......
........bet he thinks ayn rand was a good read too....
So OP just buy a character with your real life money to get where you want top be, there is a whole section of the forum devoted to it.
...... continues overleaf. |
andeira
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:25:00 -
[80]
I went to 0.0 when I was 4 months old in the game and gues what I was usefull there
learn to play -------------
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Irulan Corinno
Caldari 714th SQN - Snowflakes
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:34:00 -
[81]
I feel sympathy for new players who have to wait years to fly the ships they fancy.
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James Vorhee
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:36:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Tippia If he was really talking about the skill levels here, it should have been trivially easy for him to see that not only is catching up is not daunting (much less impossible) ù it's inevitable ù and that you most certainly truly can finish levelling, because there's a very quick hard cap on the level you can obtain.
I was talking about skill levels when I talked about leveling.
And it is still daunting because as others have pointed out, it will take you months before you are even competent in a single area, and then you'll be stuck in that one narrow role for who knows how long before you've got the skill points necessary to branch out a bit and take on more advanced roles.
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Something Random
Gallente The Barrow Boys
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:41:00 -
[83]
Originally by: James Vorhee Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 20:38:12 Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 20:37:26
... it will take you months before you are even competent in a single area, and then you'll be stuck in that one narrow role for who knows how long before you've got the skill points necessary to branch out a bit and take on more advanced roles.
Your point being ?
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
Aint that right? |
Nuniki
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:43:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Nuniki on 15/05/2011 20:44:17 No.
Why? Because you're overestimating how important skill points are. Your personal ability to play the game well accounts for an easy 80% (or more) of your success. Everything left over is [maybe] because of your skill points.
Edit: If you can't play this game and enjoy it within your first week with your insignificant amount of SP then you won't enjoy it with 90 million SP.
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James Vorhee
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:44:00 -
[85]
Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 20:45:04
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Sadly OP is poor troll, he alleges reading comprehension of Greek and Latin so he cannot be so stupid not to understand a sandbox mentality and how eve works......
The issue of having to spend several years getting up to speed has nothing to do with being anti or pro sandbox.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:53:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 15/05/2011 20:57:18
Originally by: Nuniki No.
Why? Because you're overestimating how important skill points are. Your personal ability to play the game well accounts for an easy 80% (or more) of your success. Everything left over is [maybe] because of your skill points.
Well if SP don't matter - why slow SP acquisition anyway? If your extensive player skills make you win, why deny your opponent at least the same equipment?
I think huge SP differences is a major sign that SP do matter, otherwise people wouldn't care about them. If it's truely about player skill we don't need artificial limits that make you do 50% less damage or restrict you to a few ship types. And you'd definitely won't care about a few million SP more or less for new players because they don't really matter anyway.
But in reality it is exactly the opposite. People cling to their SP like there is no tomorrow and any sign that a new player would get a few more SP gets rage threads on the forum. So there's something sincerely wrong with your argument.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.05.15 20:58:00 -
[87]
Originally by: James Vorhee And it is still daunting because as others have pointed out, it will take you months before you are even competent in a single area, and then you'll be stuck in that one narrow role for who knows how long before you've got the skill points necessary to branch out a bit and take on more advanced roles.
This isn't really the case, though.
It will take you months before you've covered the generalities, at which point you are not just competent in a single area, but in an area that forms the foundation for all further specialisations. After that, you are not stuck in a narrow role ù quite the opposite: now you have a whole slew of roles available to you, and branching out is now done at a moment's notice.
Alternatively, you could become hypercompetent in a single area, but then we've gone way past what you describe, and you will still ù inevitably ù have created a foundation for branching out, so the "god knows how long" bit still only equates to "not very long at all".
Quote: All games eventually have to address their leveling curve as the game ages.
But that's still ignoring the fact that there is no real "levelling curve" in EVE due to how the skill system is set up. "Catching up" is trivial because of the very shallow skills and the equally shallow size progression (a large part of which might not even be of any interest to you for the simple fact that bigger is not better).
In fact, perhaps the best question to ask is this: what is this levelling curve you see in EVE? What is it that you actually feel needs to be compensated for? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.15 21:02:00 -
[88]
Originally by: James Vorhee Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 20:45:04
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Sadly OP is poor troll, he alleges reading comprehension of Greek and Latin so he cannot be so stupid not to understand a sandbox mentality and how eve works......
The issue of having to spend several years getting up to speed has nothing to do with being anti or pro sandbox.
It takes less than an hour to get into a pvp ship that is usefull to a fleet.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.05.15 21:04:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 15/05/2011 21:07:13
Originally by: baltec1 It takes less than an hour to get into a pvp ship that is useful to a fleet.
And what if you don't want to be cannon fodder?
Originally by: Tippia It will take you months before you've covered the generalities, at which point you are not just competent in a single area, but in an area that forms the foundation for all further specialisations.
Like you have your basic support skills in order and can perform at 50% optimum?
Quote: After that, you are not stuck in a narrow role ù quite the opposite: now you have a whole slew of roles available to you, and branching out is now done at a moment's notice.
A moments's notice .. meaning? Let's not deny that if you want to be a good logistics pilot, a good combat recon pilot and versatile fleet booster command ship pilot you're a year or two further down the road.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.15 21:10:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
And what if you don't want to be cannon fodder?
Dont fly a scorpion?
Tackle will always be needed and is one of the best roles for a nub to fill so they can learn how to do things.
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