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The Tzar
Quam Singulari Session Changes
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Posted - 2011.05.25 12:14:00 -
[61]
Caracal is like most caldari ship really shines in gangs.
In my opinion it is best flown in groups larger than 5 (Caracals) with damps fitted (range tank).
You get enough of these along with something like an arazu and gang booster; super long point they're really fun gangs with most pilots only needing a scratch of SP.
Big alpha, rediculous range for a ~5M ship when fitted with heavy missiles. As people have said before it is a cracking little frig killer when fitted with assault missiles.
It is arguably the best PVE cruiser as well thanks to the afore mentioned range (along with damage selection).
It looks pretty good as well
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.25 13:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: The Tzar Caracal is like most caldari ship really shines in gangs.
In my opinion it is best flown in groups larger than 5 (Caracals) with damps fitted (range tank).
You get enough of these along with something like an arazu and gang booster; super long point they're really fun gangs with most pilots only needing a scratch of SP.
Big alpha, rediculous range for a ~5M ship when fitted with heavy missiles. As people have said before it is a cracking little frig killer when fitted with assault missiles.
It is arguably the best PVE cruiser as well thanks to the afore mentioned range (along with damage selection).
It looks pretty good as well
I think all of your points are false.
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Ozmodan
Minmatar Massively Mob
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Posted - 2011.05.25 13:37:00 -
[63]
T1 cruisers for the most part are not supposed to be flown solo in pvp. They can be very useful in a fleet. Learn to fly with friends or use a battlecruiser instead if you must fly solo.
Just quit whining about using a t1 cruiser in a pvp role it was not intended for.
The caracal works great as an anti-frig ship, but you have to fit it with the intention of flying with others. Learners permit still current |
Illwill Bill
Talu Shaya Talu Shaya Empire
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Posted - 2011.05.25 14:22:00 -
[64]
The only thing I see wrong with the Caracal is that it isn't able to fit heavy assault launchers and anything that even remotely looks like a semi-decent buffer. Other than that, it can be fun to fly.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:37:00 -
[65]
The only way to make caracal viable in PVP is to let them fit capital cruise missiles
Even then they might still be useless.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:20:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Traejun DiSanctis on 25/05/2011 17:21:01 It's a really solid gang ship for the anti-frig/dest hull role. It's also nice in much larger fleets, HML-fitted, and hunting BC's in flocks.
Solo-PvP...yeah...no.
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Barry Buttplug
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:27:00 -
[67]
Guise!
Everything in the game is fine.
Nothing needs a buff, nothing needs a nerf.. railguns aren't that bad on the battleship/frigate level, motherships hurt wen u lose them and they cost a ship tonne with all your eggs in 1 basket, the eagle has it's roles (albeit a funny one)... everything is fine... sheesh
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:36:00 -
[68]
The caracal is a decent sniper for the 15 mil or so it costs to fully fit. It'll do about 250dps at 150km or so. It can also snipe frigates at fairly long range. Yeah, it's useless solo but it has a role in gangs.
The caracal is one of the few cruisers that actually does something well. Most other t1 cruisers like the moa, omen, maller, thorax and so on are outclassed in every way by tier 2 battlecruisers. A nano hurricane or drake are superior to standard fit t1 cruisers in every way, except as bait for fights. Actually the only really useful cruisers I can think of are the caracal, blackbird, rupture, vexor and arbitrator.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:52:00 -
[69]
Originally by: TaluxA The caracal is a decent sniper for the 15 mil or so it costs to fully fit. It'll do about 250dps at 150km or so. It can also snipe frigates at fairly long range. Yeah, it's useless solo but it has a role in gangs.
The caracal is one of the few cruisers that actually does something well. Most other t1 cruisers like the moa, omen, maller, thorax and so on are outclassed in every way by tier 2 battlecruisers. A nano hurricane or drake are superior to standard fit t1 cruisers in every way, except as bait for fights. Actually the only really useful cruisers I can think of are the caracal, blackbird, rupture, vexor and arbitrator.
Shocking revelation here - T2 BC's are better than T1 cruisers?!?/?!?!?!11!??one?!?!!??question-mark!!?!?!
Yes, a BC will outperform a cruiser in nearly every conceivable way. It will do this at 5-10x the price.
You get what you pay for.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:58:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Aamrr on 25/05/2011 18:03:05
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
Originally by: TaluxA The caracal is a decent sniper for the 15 mil or so it costs to fully fit. It'll do about 250dps at 150km or so. It can also snipe frigates at fairly long range. Yeah, it's useless solo but it has a role in gangs.
The caracal is one of the few cruisers that actually does something well. Most other t1 cruisers like the moa, omen, maller, thorax and so on are outclassed in every way by tier 2 battlecruisers. A nano hurricane or drake are superior to standard fit t1 cruisers in every way, except as bait for fights. Actually the only really useful cruisers I can think of are the caracal, blackbird, rupture, vexor and arbitrator.
Shocking revelation here - T2 BC's are better than T1 cruisers?!?/?!?!?!11!??one?!?!!??question-mark!!?!?!
Yes, a BC will outperform a cruiser in nearly every conceivable way. It will do this at 5-10x the price.
You get what you pay for.
5-10x? More like twice as much. The most expensive part of flying one of these ships is paying for the modules, which prompts me to ask two questions...
1.) Where the heck are you buying your cruisers? 2.) Would you like to buy a battlecruiser?
Edit: When you have to spend 10 million isk on rigs and 10-15 million isk on modules, having a hull that costs only 4 million isn't really much of an advantage.
T1 Cruisers aren't neither effective nor cost effective. They have no niche and should either be buffed or removed from the game.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:00:00 -
[71]
It's more like double the price if you count insurance, not six times. I don't know why people never count insurance when they're talking about this stuff.
The problem is that four fifths of t1 cruisers simply have no role other than baiting people to fight you whilst solo-ing. It almost seems pointless to have them in the game at all.
Also use a bit less punctuation.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:08:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 25/05/2011 18:03:05
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
Originally by: TaluxA The caracal is a decent sniper for the 15 mil or so it costs to fully fit. It'll do about 250dps at 150km or so. It can also snipe frigates at fairly long range. Yeah, it's useless solo but it has a role in gangs.
The caracal is one of the few cruisers that actually does something well. Most other t1 cruisers like the moa, omen, maller, thorax and so on are outclassed in every way by tier 2 battlecruisers. A nano hurricane or drake are superior to standard fit t1 cruisers in every way, except as bait for fights. Actually the only really useful cruisers I can think of are the caracal, blackbird, rupture, vexor and arbitrator.
Shocking revelation here - T2 BC's are better than T1 cruisers?!?/?!?!?!11!??one?!?!!??question-mark!!?!?!
Yes, a BC will outperform a cruiser in nearly every conceivable way. It will do this at 5-10x the price.
You get what you pay for.
5-10x? More like twice as much. The most expensive part of flying one of these ships is paying for the modules, which prompts me to ask two questions...
1.) Where the heck are you buying your cruisers? 2.) Would you like to buy a battlecruiser?
Edit: When you have to spend 10 million isk on rigs and 10-15 million isk on modules, having a hull that costs only 4 million isn't really much of an advantage.
T1 Cruisers aren't neither effective nor cost effective. They have no niche and should either be buffed or removed from the game.
Don't buy rigs off the Market. You can get a fully-rigged ship on public contract for about the same price as just the hull of the Market. Either make the rigs if you can, or just lurk public contracts until you find the bird+rigs you want.
Fitting a BC is WAY more expensive than fitting a Cruiser. In fact, i wouldn't hesitate to say that my Drake costed easily 5x as much to fit as my Caracal did.
The Caracal hull is about 3-4M ISK. The Drake hull is about 28-30M ISK.
Anything else?
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:09:00 -
[73]
Did you count insurance? I could swear you get about 20mil back on that drake hull.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:13:00 -
[74]
Originally by: TaluxA Did you count insurance? I could swear you get about 20mil back on that drake hull.
I tend to not count insurance in determining the approximate/total cost of a combat ship. I do see your point though - the insurance can make a ship that is otherwise vastly more expensive seem much less so.
Thing is, that assumes you're going to lose it. AND, that can't be factored into the "purchase" price. In fact, the cost of insuring a Drake vs. a Caracal would make the Drake even that much more expensive to buy than the Caracal.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:14:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis In fact, the cost of insuring a Drake vs. a Caracal would make the Drake even that much more expensive to buy than the Caracal.
tbh if the cost of buying a battlecruiser is cost prohibitive, you need to learn to run level 2s or something. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:22:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis In fact, the cost of insuring a Drake vs. a Caracal would make the Drake even that much more expensive to buy than the Caracal.
tbh if the cost of buying a battlecruiser is cost prohibitive, you need to learn to run level 2s or something.
I hope you're not upset...I think we're having a solid convo here about an issue that probably matters to a lot of newer players.
As for me - I'm cool in my stock Raven, running L4's. So, thankfully, I don't really need to worry about the cost-prohibition of getting a Drake over a Caracal.
To the point - for a newer player, the cost could be THE deciding factor. For a PvPer, it's a MAJOR factor in that losing ships is part of the game and losing a BC hurts a lot more than losing a T1 cruiser.
For everyone else, the cost difference is simple reality. One costs considerably more than the other. Most carebears [like I am now] simply eat the cost of the BC b/c it = L3 missions, which = more ISK, which = better ship/mods to do L4's.
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Caldari Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:32:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis In fact, the cost of insuring a Drake vs. a Caracal would make the Drake even that much more expensive to buy than the Caracal.
tbh if the cost of buying a battlecruiser is cost prohibitive, you need to learn to run level 2s or something.
Your legs hurt from that huge jump to a false conclusion?
His posts neither said nor implied it was cost prohibitive to him.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:52:00 -
[78]
I'm not at all upset, but buying, fitting, and insuring a T2 fit BC is less than an hour's work for any half way competent mission runner. And ultimately, even if you're not a half way decent mission runner the cost of the ship + insurance is something of a one time cost, mitigated by the insurance payback (provided you actually lose the ship). This tends to make the fittings on your ship the primary determiner of how much it costs.
Which leads me to another point: I'd argue that the fitting constraints imposed on T1 cruisers make them more expensive than BCs because you're required to buy best named/faction modules just to make a decent fit.
Also: boost the caracal. Being able to lob missiles 180km and wait 10 years for them to hit, or killing frigates like any T1 cruiser set up to do it can is really a *meh* niche. At the minimum: boost fittings. Ideally: eliminate the ship tier system and normalize around the Rupture or Thorax (which does require a single fitting mod). -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:54:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm not at all upset, but buying, fitting, and insuring a T2 fit BC is less than an hour's work for any half way competent mission runner. And ultimately, even if you're not a half way decent mission runner the cost of the ship + insurance is something of a one time cost, mitigated by the insurance payback (provided you actually lose the ship). This tends to make the fittings on your ship the primary determiner of how much it costs.
Which leads me to another point: I'd argue that the fitting constraints imposed on T1 cruisers make them more expensive than BCs because you're required to buy best named/faction modules just to make a decent fit.
Also: boost the caracal. Being able to lob missiles 180km and wait 10 years for them to hit, or killing frigates like any T1 cruiser set up to do it can is really a *meh* niche. At the minimum: boost fittings. Ideally: eliminate the ship tier system and normalize around the Rupture or Thorax (which does require a single fitting mod).
Nobody would really put faction mods on a Caracal, right?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.25 19:07:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis Nobody would really put faction mods on a Caracal, right?
Comments: - Lots of faction and deadspace items are really cheap. As such, I fit them to frigs, cruisers, and BCs. - I notice you ignored the best named part of that comment... its not like best named items are cheap. For example, nobody would blink twice at a fleeting web on a Caracal and it costs more than the hull itself. - Hell, even rigging your Caracal will run you a multiple of the hull cost.
Like I said: fittings are the primary cost of fitting any T1 ship. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.25 20:50:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis Nobody would really put faction mods on a Caracal, right?
Comments: - Lots of faction and deadspace items are really cheap. As such, I fit them to frigs, cruisers, and BCs.
Such as? I'm really struggling to think of a cheap faction mod that it would be sensible for a Caracal to fit.
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Daniela Darr
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Posted - 2011.05.25 20:50:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Ideally: eliminate the ship tier system and normalize around the Rupture or Thorax (which does require a single fitting mod).
I so agree with this.
What's the use of 75% of the frigates and cruisers, as they are now they may as well not be in the game, there's lot less choice than the amount of hulls would suggest.
For new players there's hardly any skill or price differences that make an inferior ship more attractive to fly, especially as the modules cost a multitude of the ship's cost anyway.
So yes, rebalancing existing cruisers - and frigates - around the tier 4 slot layout and PG/CPU would make a lot more ships viable and fun to fly.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 21:21:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis Nobody would really put faction mods on a Caracal, right?
Comments: - Lots of faction and deadspace items are really cheap. As such, I fit them to frigs, cruisers, and BCs. - I notice you ignored the best named part of that comment... its not like best named items are cheap. For example, nobody would blink twice at a fleeting web on a Caracal and it costs more than the hull itself. - Hell, even rigging your Caracal will run you a multiple of the hull cost.
Like I said: fittings are the primary cost of fitting any T1 ship.
Agreed with the last bit. When it comes to smaller ships, T2 fittings across the board would be many times the cost of the ship itself. That becomes less true as the hulls get bigger - i.e. T2 fitting even a stock Raven wouldn't even cost half the cost of the ship.
I would probably still never put faction mods on a T1 cruiser. Sure, best "named" mods...but not faction ones. I don't know any that would be cheap enough to warrant fitting on what is ultimately a throw-away ship.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.25 21:32:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
Agreed with the last bit. When it comes to smaller ships, T2 fittings across the board would be many times the cost of the ship itself. That becomes less true as the hulls get bigger - i.e. T2 fitting even a stock Raven wouldn't even cost half the cost of the ship.
7x Mega Pulse II = ~20M (discounting ammo) 3x Trimark I = ~42M (Neglect the rest of the fit) 1x Armageddon = 47M
Quote:
I would probably still never put faction mods on a T1 cruiser. Sure, best "named" mods...but not faction ones. I don't know any that would be cheap enough to warrant fitting on what is ultimately a throw-away ship.
TBH if you're willing to put best named mods on your ship, you aren't too far out of 5M ISK Domi Large Boosters and such. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.25 22:31:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 25/05/2011 22:31:36 Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 25/05/2011 22:31:20 The phrase I keep seeing over and over in this thread is "good anti-frig ship".
I would like to respectfully disagree with that....
http://sotf.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8852970
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 22:53:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 25/05/2011 22:31:36 Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 25/05/2011 22:31:20 The phrase I keep seeing over and over in this thread is "good anti-frig ship".
I would like to respectfully disagree with that....
http://sotf.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8852970
Did that guy not even fire a shot at you? Am I reading that right?
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.25 22:55:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis Did that guy not even fire a shot at you? Am I reading that right?
It's not exactly hard to kill even a max skilled caracal with a frigate. They aren't that good at killing frigs. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.25 22:58:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis Did that guy not even fire a shot at you? Am I reading that right?
It's not exactly hard to kill even a max skilled caracal with a frigate. They aren't that good at killing frigs.
I agree with this. It's not as if we're looking at such a lop-side match-up that the outcome is virtually guaranteed. At the same time, presumably souped up T2 frig vs. T1 missile cruiser is a fairly even match-up in my opinion.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.05.26 07:07:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Lots of faction and deadspace items are really cheap.
Unfortunately, none of them are CN, DG, or Pith/Gisti since all of these mods are horded by the PvE Pimp Masters for their [insert incredibly over-tanked PvE monster here].
That being said, there are some cost-effective buffs you can make to the Cara--you just can't get crazy...
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.05.26 07:10:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot
I would like to respectfully disagree with that....
I don't think Cold C had his best day at the fitting interface with that one. I'd love to do some 1v1 Hawk vs. Cara if anyone's interested. I think with a better fit, the Cara winds up winning vs. the Hawk.
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