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Nerfing Super Carriers will change nothing

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Kyle Brooks	Posted - 2011.05.29 13:13:00 - [31] As a (full) member of the Northern Coalition for almost three years now, I have only seen a Supercarrier hot drop on a small gang a handful of times. Literally, like 3-4 times. And yes I have had a cap/supercap most of the above referenced time period. I have seen them used for POS bashing.... Dozens of times. Questions for Laing and others who claim to be victims of SC hot drops: 1. What were you doing at the time you were dropped? (ratting, travel, ganking Nubs, gate camping, taking bait.) 2. Who dropped you? PL, rando pirates, NC? This is and impt question, pleaselook it up. 3. In the last 12 months, how many times has it happened? Seriously. You guys sound like a bunch of whiners.
Dorian Wylde	Posted - 2011.05.29 13:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Jacque Cruix Increase jump fuel usage by SuperCarriers and Titans by 500x. Then they will only be moved when they really have to, not just to hotdrop an indy and alt scout for lols. Perhaps not that extreme, but that would be a good start to fixing them. Wouldn't punish smaller groups unfairly, but would make it so the largest coalitions, currently the main problem in null sec, wouldn't be able to defend such enormous territory as easily. Would also help smaller groups get established, since they wouldn't have to worry about supercap fleets jumping in if they don't pay rent.
Twisted Girl Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.05.29 13:18:00 - [33] Edited by: Twisted Girl on 29/05/2011 13:20:48 Originally by: Dorian Wylde Originally by: Jacque Cruix Increase jump fuel usage by SuperCarriers and Titans by 500x. Then they will only be moved when they really have to, not just to hotdrop an indy and alt scout for lols. Perhaps not that extreme, but that would be a good start to fixing them. Wouldn't punish smaller groups unfairly, but would make it so the largest coalitions, currently the main problem in null sec, wouldn't be able to defend such enormous territory as easily. Would also help smaller groups get established, since they wouldn't have to worry about supercap fleets jumping in if they don't pay rent. everyone knows people that doesnt pay the rent deserve a bashin. they are like parasites on our socitiy. Me tho, a honest pirat, theif and mercenary is working my ass off to make mah rent to ccp. And you want to make mah livlyhood even harder? I barly break profit hotdropping these drakes in lowsec nowadays. -------------------- yo
Kyle Brooks	Posted - 2011.05.29 13:19:00 - [34] Edited by: Kyle Brooks on 29/05/2011 13:22:21 Edited by: Kyle Brooks on 29/05/2011 13:20:49 One other point. To small mining corps, noobs, and others, getting ganked by 10 pirate BC on a gate camp, or suicide ganked while minding their own business, is a lot more disruptive to gameplay and enjoyment than a low sec pirate having his favoreeet Drake killed in a boring hot drop is. Quit whining. Your BC was insured. Get real ppl. This is EVE, **** blows up when you don't GTFO fast enough. You are crying BC you can't hang with the big dawgs. Go join NC if you want your own SC. Free Pro Tip: grinding in 0.0 ain't much fun, but it pays better than ganking low sec noobs. Also, seriously, I want answers to the above questions.
Kebabski Vae Nexon Neon Equinox	Posted - 2011.05.29 13:27:00 - [35] Lots of people clearly here don't play in proper 0.0 warfare often. Supercarriers are fine, they used to be useless and now they're finally usefull people complain again. Instead of whining for nerfs, find solutions to boost other ships. Common sense but hey, some people don't seem to get it. Boosting dreads seems like a good option for one, and i've seen a few good other options. But just plain nerfing them, because a smaller alliance can't kill off a bigger alliance because the bigger alliance has more supercapitals is just silly of course. Keb 'Peachy Lil Babe'
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.29 14:51:00 - [36] The big thing I take issue with when people whine about SCs is that massive alliance fleets tend to field them as their main ship. This really isn't the problem people make it out to be, because a massive fleet using the biggest ships makes at least some sense, and unlike the regular capital fleets of the past, after a supercap fleet fight you know that there were some very, very heavy losses. IMO it makes the fleet fights more interesting. The issues I personally (as well as many others I'm sure) have with SCs in particular (most people don't whine about titans being OP, despite having similar DPS and more EHP) are easy to spot and just as easy to fix: 1) Jump drives/cynos need a speed nerf. Keep a cyno active even if the ship fielding it goes boom, then add a 5-10 minute timer that counts down after the capital pilot hits the jump button. The biggest ships in the game should not be the easiest to move around (being slow and hard to move is one of the key balancing points of larger ships), and it is absolutely absurd to think that you can literally take the biggest ship in the game, and use it as an unscoutable surprise hotdrop trap. Something the size of a moon should not be able to sneak up on people, it's ridiculous (both from an IG and a balance perspective) 2)SCs are too good at taking down subcaps. Of course they **** capitals, it's their explicit role within the game, and should remain as such. Remove their ability to field fighters, and maybe even regular drones. Suddenly you don't need 20 HICs to hold an SC in place in lowsec (or nullsec really) if said SC has no backup, and SCs can be reliably killed, unless they log off, which brings me to point 3: 3)Don't make ships disappear if they're pointed. Simple, intuitive, and it should have been implemented ages ago, and not just for SCs. While I have no problem with people disappearing after DCing, if they were in the middle of a fight they should not be getting a free pass, and that's not even factoring in logging off for the sake of not losing a ship. As a side note to point 2: IMO siege mods should not nerf tracking. Let dreads be something that can be effectively used against BSs, countered with SCs, or fought with smaller ships if you've got the numbers.
Oglyn	Posted - 2011.05.29 15:31:00 - [37] The problem isn't with any one class of ship, it is with force projection in general. It is currently far too easy to move lots of firepower over long distances. This is why we see alliances holding more space than they can fill.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.29 15:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Kebabski Lots of people clearly here don't play in proper 0.0 warfare often. Supercarriers are fine, Haha your super will be nerfed soon.
Spurty Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp	Posted - 2011.05.29 16:27:00 - [39] When people complain because of the ISK value of the ship, I make a mental note of this person. They don't get the nuances of EVE. Only a numpty cares about the price of the mods the owner put on the ship. A T1 fit super will still mince meat a 100billion isk value dread without breaking a sweat. The hitpoint buff was the only mistake with the redesign. Rest is ok. Even bombers. They are essential for sov grindin (again, hitpoint buff screw up). I for one don't even want that changed. CCP needs to stops messing with what is and create new ships to counter. There should be an entire new type of ship added to the game every year to balance things out. No more sneaking into our hangers and redesigning our ships over night please. Sure you can aim for <insert fotm> as your end game ship, but you should do so with absolute certainty that there will be a counter. Fizzt!
Chandaris Gallente Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2011.05.29 16:29:00 - [40] SC's need to be vulnerable to EWAR.
Hesperius	Posted - 2011.05.29 16:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Chandaris SC's need to be vulnerable to EWAR. That. and less HP. and we need a booster that will make smart bombs hit fighter bombers.
Digiball Amarr Fink Operations	Posted - 2011.05.29 17:01:00 - [42] why would i have invested a gazillion isk into a ship only to see it nerfed into nothing worth really.. and many pople think this as u poor morrons write about how uber they are.. they arent.. the real problem is you cant keep up with the major power blocks in building the same amount as they can.. and doubling the price on em wont help cause it will just take a litlle longer to build em. making them jump for more fuel is also stupid cause then u will have loads of smaller alliances whine about they dont use em cause it cost to damn much.. its irelevant what ccp decide to do NOT do there will allways be someone whining. SC are fine as they are, they are just being used to much atm and that makes wars borring ALSO for the sc pilots cause there targets flee all ower when they enter.. howwvwe i have the solution-- might be ratarded but here goes.. some NEW race can jump into the sc radious from fare away the see the jump pattern and can lock onto this. now what this new race new ship does is it will try to capture the said sc or sc drone. and make it go beserk on various targets including its owner. a new ship is what i meen and this new ship can then hijack the sc drones say a max of 6 drones pr ship. the ship can operate in stealth mode but looses controle after 3 minuts where it has to decloak to gain controle again!. this would be a very funneh ship and wouldent mess alot up but make it harder to be sc pilot. u can also set limits to how many sc a gang can have. but u can ofc get around that by making more gangs so i doubt that will work much. u can also say a system are only aloved 20 sc pr system.. but alliances will use that and always have 20 sc in a defending system. i like the new ship idea the most tbh..
Narisa Bithon Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn	Posted - 2011.05.29 17:10:00 - [43] Originally by: Kyle Brooks As a (full) member of the Northern Coalition for almost three years now, I have only seen a Supercarrier hot drop on a small gang a handful of times. Literally, like 3-4 times. And yes I have had a cap/supercap most of the above referenced time period. I have seen them used for POS bashing.... Dozens of times. Questions for Laing and others who claim to be victims of SC hot drops: 1. What were you doing at the time you were dropped? (ratting, travel, ganking Nubs, gate camping, taking bait.) 2. Who dropped you? PL, rando pirates, NC? This is and impt question, pleaselook it up. 3. In the last 12 months, how many times has it happened? Seriously. You guys sound like a bunch of whiners. u live in blue nap land try go outside nc space and u will see how often supers get dropped on small gangs.
Mystical Might Amarr The Imperial Fedaykin	Posted - 2011.05.29 17:27:00 - [44] http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9795216 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9796682 Look at all the supers they needed to kill those...
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2011.05.29 17:36:00 - [45] Cyno spool up timer. 10 seconds. Enough for Non Caps to GTFO. DING. Problem solved. --- The REASON for being in 0.0 is to stand on a piece of sand, plant your flag, and say proudly to the alliance's around you... MINE! Come git Some....
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.29 17:40:00 - [46] Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/05/2011 17:45:26 Originally by: San Severina Another nervous SC pilot struggles to justify his/her existence. Always the same pathetic/ weak arguments for having a grossly OP ship and playing in what amounts to GOD Mode. Aww, it cost a lot of ISK ok, I had to train for really ages ok! I should be wtf pwnmobile ok! Larrrr whoooooo sirrrrrrrr!"" Many of us do not find that a super carrier in itself is OP. We find that the method of deployment and cyno mechanics when using them needs to be looked at. They _SHOULD_ be powerful... That's not really an issue. At least not for many of us participating in this debate. Originally by: Kyle Brooks Originally by: JC Anderson Funny part is that during that time, motherships (original sc name) weren't even worth fielding. They were a very rare sight for that reason. For a ship that costs 25 bil fitted, that is unacceptable. Grind harder, nubtards. Yes, I know that and never said it was. My point was that it's funny how it is the direct opposite now in terms of SC's being more common than dreads. As opposed to way back when people felt motherships were useless and dreads were needed. Hence, why I said they need to do something with dreads to give them a role once more.
Mysteriax The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.05.29 18:03:00 - [47] Edited by: Mysteriax on 29/05/2011 18:05:13 Reduce EHP by 75%. Also titan DD should only do 25% of its damage to supercarriers then. That is the best fix. Currently you cannot counter a 100 man supercap fleet without bringing more supercaps. Any fleet that has a chance without supercaps has to be so big 3000+ sub capitals that it will lag the system so hard you wont be able to jump in. Thus the fleet is unbeatable.
Kieron VonDeux	Posted - 2011.05.29 19:49:00 - [48] I think it's pretty clear that SCs will get nerf'd. CCP has said as much. What isn't clear is how. One possible way is to significantly weaken them, offensively and or defensively. Another is to make them extemely expensive to move around. Expensive for those who can afford them. Afford, not just manage to get into. I propose they make them extremely expensive to move around, to try and limit their force projection, but allow them to defend their home space. This wouild also only make them economical to use in larger fleet engagements. Not lol hot drops. The loser can laugh at all the isk they wasted if they do. I also think they should lose their point immunity, so they can be trapped on lowsec easier.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.05.29 20:10:00 - [49] Edited by: Grimpak on 29/05/2011 20:10:15 Originally by: Kyle Brooks Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/05/2011 09:43:26 Yeah I've wanted them to do something with Dreads for awhile now. I miss the old days where they were essential to large alliances. Funny part is that during that time, motherships (original sc name) weren't even worth fielding. They were a very rare sight for that reason. For a ship that costs 25 bil fitted, that is unacceptable. Grind harder, nubtards. cost is not a balance factor. if it was, a single HAC would be able to kill 2 battleships, and a T3 would be able to pummel into submission 5 or 6 battleships. More if it fitted officer. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.29 20:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Grimpak cost is not a balance factor. if it was, a single HAC would be able to kill 2 battleships, and a T3 would be able to pummel into submission 5 or 6 battleships. More if it fitted officer. Good point.
Lady Segan	Posted - 2011.05.29 20:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 29/05/2011 20:10:15 Originally by: Kyle Brooks Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/05/2011 09:43:26 Yeah I've wanted them to do something with Dreads for awhile now. I miss the old days where they were essential to large alliances. Funny part is that during that time, motherships (original sc name) weren't even worth fielding. They were a very rare sight for that reason. For a ship that costs 25 bil fitted, that is unacceptable. Grind harder, nubtards. cost is not a balance factor. if it was, a single HAC would be able to kill 2 battleships, and a T3 would be able to pummel into submission 5 or 6 battleships. More if it fitted officer. Wrong. Cost is ONE balance factor. Every larger class of ship costs more, and every larger class of ship is generally better for both PVE and PVP (obviously with quite a few exceptions). In this case, we are not talking about something that is 2x or even 5x more expensive than other ships. We are talking about something that is 100x + as expensive as a battleship (for example). I don't deny that SC need SOME sort of adjustment. Increasing fuel cost sounds like an excellent starting point. But an all out nerf just means that the blobs we see change ship types. Trust me. People will never stop blobbing and hotdropping unless EVE is changed pretty radically.
Skydell Caldari Morrigna Order	Posted - 2011.05.29 20:30:00 - [52] Originally by: Mystical Might http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9795216 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9796682 Look at all the supers they needed to kill those... Those guys had no Fighter Bombers on, one had 2 Fighters. Meaning they logged in after a DC with no drone support, most likely armor damage. Very likely in to a black screen, lagg and a dozen sling bubbles. Bad example of what it takes to kill a Nyx.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.05.29 20:43:00 - [53] Edited by: Grimpak on 29/05/2011 20:44:31 Originally by: Lady Segan Wrong. Cost is ONE balance factor. Every larger class of ship costs more, and every larger class of ship is generally better for both PVE and PVP (obviously with quite a few exceptions). In this case, we are not talking about something that is 2x or even 5x more expensive than other ships. We are talking about something that is 100x + as expensive as a battleship (for example). I don't deny that SC need SOME sort of adjustment. Increasing fuel cost sounds like an excellent starting point. But an all out nerf just means that the blobs we see change ship types. Trust me. People will never stop blobbing and hotdropping unless EVE is changed pretty radically. more capabilities does not factor in an equal increase on performance. A ship can die to a small-ish gang of ships that cost a fraction of said ship (even when you put their cost combined). This is true until you hit supercaps, where the only bet is either bring a massive force to chow down the millions of EHP one has before logoff timer runs out or bring your own supercaps. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Kyle Brooks	Posted - 2011.05.29 21:27:00 - [54] Grimpak, SC cost 20x or more as much as the next smaller class. That HAS to count for something, or they are literally just trophies/badges.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.29 21:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Kyle Brooks Grimpak, SC cost 20x or more as much as the next smaller class. That HAS to count for something, or they are literally just trophies/badges. Jump Drive Cal 5 costs a lot more time than Jump Drive Cal 4... doesn't give that big of a boost. A Hyperion costs a lot more than a Brutix. Not that big of a boost. See the trend here? -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.29 21:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Kyle Brooks Grimpak, SC cost 20x or more as much as the next smaller class. That HAS to count for something, or they are literally just trophies/badges. How much better is a deadspace shield booster than a faction shield booster? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.05.29 21:44:00 - [57] Edited by: JC Anderson on 29/05/2011 21:45:30 Hell, Navy Ravens used to be well over a billion isk while standard Ravens were around 130mil or so. Now they are both much cheaper. A good portion of the cost that people need to figure into it all is supply and demand... As well as the trend of what the current "HOT" item is in Eve. Since I'm not into manufacturing, I can't reliably comment on the actual production cost of an SC compared to what they sell for. But I would assume the price tags on them include a hefty markup simply because people know the item will sell. Somebody with experience in manufacturing supercaps, please let me know if this is incorrect. Originally by: Tippia How much better is a deadspace shield booster than a faction shield booster?
Hesperius	Posted - 2011.05.29 21:49:00 - [58] For the record, the price tag on anything never holds a sound argument. Dreads were hit hard in Dominion, you have to be drunk, goofing around, absolutely sure there will not be a super deployed on you or just plain stupid to use one. Who ever hired the comedian as a game designer that put super capitals into the position they are in, is equally as funny. Really I should be thankful that super carriers are the way they are; it pushed me into W-Space which gave me a good reason to reduce the number of subscribed accounts from 5 to 2, and has me playing other more enjoyable and faster paced games while I sit on a big fat pile of ISK waiting for the prospect that CCP can get Eve to live up to a fragment of its potential.
Telvani Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber	Posted - 2011.05.29 21:58:00 - [59] Originally by: Mystical Might http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9795216 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9796682 Look at all the supers they needed to kill those... 3/10
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.05.29 22:23:00 - [60] Originally by: Kyle Brooks Grimpak, SC cost 20x or more as much as the next smaller class. That HAS to count for something, or they are literally just trophies/badges. so? if we go by that angle, a single 2-bil fitted tengu would be able to kill or go against a carrier with ease. perhaps even two. I'm not seeing super-pimped tengus killing caps left and right, are you? If any they go down with a group of a few, low-cost alpha tempests that in the end cost, at most, almost as half in the whole as the tengu. price tag is not a balance factor. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.

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