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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Motty 007 Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:38:00 - [1] Edited by: Motty 007 on 05/06/2011 21:41:24 I cannot see where you can split the 28th and 29th place on the system you have up to now. I still say the RONIN score is unfair for them to progress without killing a ship where ourselves and EMO both won a match there is no minimum fleets score and ronin fought against a fleet of 0 therefore no undershipping score should be benefitted. Pre-Qualifying Rankings If at any point, teams are level in Win/Loss and also level in points scored, the following will be used in order to determine ranking position. If the teams disputing rank have fought each other at any point, the winner is higher. The current ranking (W/L, then points) of the last team that you defeated. Higher is better. The current ranking of the last team that defeated you. Again, higher is better. Can you please clear this up CCP. Motty excarebear expiwate exhausted
SirJoJo Nomads Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:42:00 - [2] isent it gonna be ranked after the the ranks of the opponents you had?
kloma	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:46:00 - [3] close either way, we could always fight for it. t1 frigs anyone? :P
Motty 007 Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:47:00 - [4] SirJoJo Those stats are identical for us and EMO Motty excarebear expiwate exhausted
M4n1c M1n3r Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:49:00 - [5] Edited by: M4n1c M1n3r on 05/06/2011 21:50:37 CCP I'd like to suggest that regardless of what I've read on the forums, and as yet unconfirmed by CCP, it seems reasonably clear that given the following stated rules for AT9: Quote: Intentional Handicaps If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values. Quote: During Pre-Qualifying rounds, teams have a total of 50 points to select ships. There is no minimum number of pilots or points a team needs to field during the pre-qualifiers. The Ronin, should be entitled to receive the 50 points + 25% for their 'win'. The additional 16 points should not, according to the above rules, be allocated to them as there was clearly no handicap involved. i.e. we have not seen a 50-34=16 point handicap but rather it was a 36-0=36 point advantage. The 50 points + 25% for the win therefore seem perfectly valid without any bonus points applied. This would then look to put both Red and EMO at joint 28th (I think).
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2011.06.05 22:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Random Womble on 05/06/2011 22:41:02 Yea this whole area is going to be interesting because just by whats written in the rules one strict interpretation is that the ranking decider based on the last team you defeated states only W/L then points of opponents so arguably it should then move on to the 3rd deciding factor. The problem is if you also take into account those other 2 teams final ranking which in both their cases is based on the third factor but then it seems unfair to use the third factor for ranking those two teams in order to decide the second factor for another two teams especially when only points and W/L are state in the rules to be taken into account. either way its an interesting conundrum. But hey with the whole r0nin thing its made even more fun. Which ever way CCP falls there is the potential for a bit of controversy. Edited to make my post even more confusing.
kloma	Posted - 2011.06.05 22:46:00 - [7] should just make an extra slot :P
Velox Versutus Minmatar Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.05 23:26:00 - [8] I suppose if CCP could see all the outcomes the servers would never go down. It will be an interesting ruling.
Daneel Trevize Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.05 23:52:00 - [9] Didn't I raise this posibility last week?

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2011.06.05 23:58:00 - [10] Hey guys, We just put the Pre Qualifying rankings up. It took a little while to work through the rankings dispute over 28th place, however we have done it according to the rules, and there is a full explanation of the process used at the bottom of the page. Cheers Mindstar --

Dirk Magnum Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:04:00 - [11] Random fortune smiles on RED.
Daneel Trevize Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:08:00 - [12] Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:13:06 Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state. TEST didn't lose to rank 28th, but to someone who in this instance could only rank higher than Reverb's betters, Corcoran? Only then does it define their place and thus the exact rank of TEST's betters.

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:08:42 Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state. The disupte resolves, in this case, regardless of whether Test are 28th or 29th. --

Velox Versutus Minmatar Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:13:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Mindstar Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:08:42 Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state. The disupte resolves, in this case, regardless of whether Test are 28th or 29th. Test?
Daneel Trevize Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:14:26 Yes it ends up with the same result but it isn't resolved in the way you've written on the site.

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Velox Versutus Originally by: CCP Mindstar Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:08:42 Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state. The disupte resolves, in this case, regardless of whether Test are 28th or 29th. Test? Ugh. my bad, I meant RvB. I will re-word it to clarify that they could be either 28 or 29 during the resolving process. --

Daneel Trevize Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:21:00 - [17] I'm too tired/CBA to think it through now, but could you not have been screwed if 2 pairs referenced each other? That a ruling either way would be self-consistent but arbitrary? Is this not a flaw in the mechanism?

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Daneel Trevize I'm too tired/CBA to think it through now, but could you not have been screwed if 2 pairs referenced each other? That a ruling either way would be self-consistent but arbitrary? Is this not a flaw in the mechanism? It is a risk, yes. It did not apply this time and thankfully has not applied in any of the tournaments where we have used this system thus far. We are well aware though if and when we end up with a true tie, that there will need to be a fair way to resolve it --

Daneel Trevize Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:28:00 - [19] Care to define that ahead of time, for impartiality's sake?

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2011.06.06 00:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Care to define that ahead of time, for impartiality's sake? I'll talk to the team this week and come up with something, to cover the case that we have any disputes going into the finals. --

Evilan Altana Moriar Libera	Posted - 2011.06.06 07:06:00 - [21] While the tie for 28 seems to make sense and follow the rules how can you justify the number of points The RONIN received for the second round "If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values." They did not field more than their opponents and as a result should have only received 62.5 points for their victory. Which would shift both 28 and 29 up in the standings.
Icylce Frost Palace	Posted - 2011.06.06 10:25:00 - [22] Originally by: M4n1c M1n3r The Ronin, should be entitled to receive the 50 points + 25% for their 'win'. The additional 16 points should not, according to the above rules, be allocated to them as there was clearly no handicap involved. i.e. we have not seen a 50-34=16 point handicap but rather it was a 36-0=36 point advantage. The 50 points + 25% for the win therefore seem perfectly valid without any bonus points applied. This would then look to put both Red and EMO at joint 28th (I think). I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules: Victory Conditions 1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner. If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in: - no handicap 0-34 - points for win 01.25 - 0 points for winning team. U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part. During Pre-Qualifying rounds, teams have a total of 50 points to select ships. There is no minimum number of pilots or points a team needs to field during the pre-qualifiers. For Ronin to recieve any points for win u have to assume the opposing team fielded Fleet worth of 50 points. Fleet point value participants are able to field, is between 0 and 50 included. Because the lowest limit doesn't grant the winning team no points u have to go with the 50 point limit. So u create a fictional situation where 1 team fielded 50 point fleet and the other team fielded 34 point fleet. Hence the handicap is created: 50-34 = 16 I believe the handicap is rightfull for one simple reason: Intentional Handicaps If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values. Ronin with 0 points after the 1 day of qualifiers found itself in very unfavourable position. Their chances to advance to the main competition would be very low, if they fielded full point fleet. So their intention on the day 2 was to field less points than the opponent in order to get advantage from winning the match. However they did not know how many points the opponent would field. The key word here is the Intention* of participating team to field less points. Their intention was proven after they warped (dont know how the forfeith actually happened, but I quess CCP couldn't get the other team so they let Ronin warp to arena to declare them winners) to the arena. So CCP basicaly had 2 choices give Ronin 0 points or go all the way and give them full credit for the match. Tldr: If u give Ronin 50 points for the win even tough they didn't score any point u have to take into account the handicapt because u are operating under assumption that the losing team fielded 50 points.
kloma	Posted - 2011.06.06 10:44:00 - [23] i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something.

CCP Zirnitra	Posted - 2011.06.06 11:23:00 - [24] Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47 Originally by: kloma i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something. Icylce has pretty much listed the reasoning we used in this situation to award them the full win + handicap points. We have to take the position that there was no way for The R0NIN to know, that United Front Alliance was not gonna field a team, as UFA themselves didn't know until an hour before the match. We spent an extra 10 minutes talking to the UFA guys, trying to get a team for a last stand kind of thing, so we wouldn't have a forfeit, but they were unable to do so and decided to forfeit the match. It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus. With regards to alternate / backup teams, that would have been very unfair to the backup team, as we would have to award them the points and ranking of the team they replaced, in thus case 0 wins and 0 points, giving them no chance what so ever to advance to the final stages, as they would have to handicap themselves similarly to have a shadow of a chance. We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played.

Daneel Trevize Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.06 11:52:00 - [25] The backup teams are there to have a fight, no? Not to gift the opposition a max points win!
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.06 12:45:00 - [26] Originally by: CCP Zirnitra Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47 Originally by: kloma i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something. Icylce has pretty much listed the reasoning we used in this situation to award them the full win + handicap points. We have to take the position that there was no way for The R0NIN to know, that United Front Alliance was not gonna field a team, as UFA themselves didn't know until an hour before the match. We spent an extra 10 minutes talking to the UFA guys, trying to get a team for a last stand kind of thing, so we wouldn't have a forfeit, but they were unable to do so and decided to forfeit the match. It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus. With regards to alternate / backup teams, that would have been very unfair to the backup team, as we would have to award them the points and ranking of the team they replaced, in thus case 0 wins and 0 points, giving them no chance what so ever to advance to the final stages, as they would have to handicap themselves similarly to have a shadow of a chance. We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played. Well they have no chance of making it in to the final stages anyway, but letting them play would give a potentially fun fight and a more fair situation for the other teams affected by the "match".
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2011.06.06 12:47:00 - [27] Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 12:49:41 Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 12:48:28 Originally by: CCP Zirnitra Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47 Originally by: kloma i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something. Icylce has pretty much listed the reasoning we used in this situation to award them the full win + handicap points. We have to take the position that there was no way for The R0NIN to know, that United Front Alliance was not gonna field a team, as UFA themselves didn't know until an hour before the match. We spent an extra 10 minutes talking to the UFA guys, trying to get a team for a last stand kind of thing, so we wouldn't have a forfeit, but they were unable to do so and decided to forfeit the match. It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus. With regards to alternate / backup teams, that would have been very unfair to the backup team, as we would have to award them the points and ranking of the team they replaced, in thus case 0 wins and 0 points, giving them no chance what so ever to advance to the final stages, as they would have to handicap themselves similarly to have a shadow of a chance. We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played. With all due respect Zirnitra in my personal opinion you are wrong. Dont get me wrong im not going to argue endlessly for the decision to be overturned but as i said in the other thread i feel this should be corrected for any future occurrences. This incident was clearly covered by 4 sets of rules: Firstly UNIT fielded 0 points which is covered by this rule: Quote: Each team has 100 points with which to select their ships. Teams must use a minimum of 50 points. During Pre-Qualifying rounds, teams have a total of 50 points to select ships. There is no minimum number of pilots or points a team needs to field during the pre-qualifiers. They did not break any rules by fielding nothing. So in reality arbitrary deciding they would have fielded 50 is just plain wrong. Quote: Unused points will be added to the opponents score. therefore R0NIN should get 50 points Quote: Intentional Handicaps If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values. Unit started off with less as they had 0 therefore R0NIN are not entitled tot he handicap. As the final nail in the coffin for this either you have to assume UNIT started with 0 points therefore R0NIN gets all their unused points but no handicap otherwise you have to assume unit fielded a full 50 point team at which point Quote: During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner. Comes into play and R0NIN destroyed no ships therefore they cannot score any points by that rule or claimed to have destroyed the entire team. So either they scored 0 points or they do not get the handicap bonus and get the unused 50 points. And those are the rules you guys made them. I could argue that you have mashed up several rules in order to give the r0nin points is a case of favouritism but we all know that it was just an overly quick decision made under pressure.
Xan Drakov Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.06.06 12:56:00 - [28] Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 12:58:31 I'm sorry to the R0nin but Womble makes a very good case. At no point in the rules does it say fielding a team of zero is illegal or results in the match being forfeit. Surely by this reasoning if a team in the group stage got a match with an alt alliance of there's they could just turn up with 1 dessy and have the other team not turn up basically putting them through the group stage?
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.06 13:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Xan Drakov Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 13:08:16 Originally by: Icylce Tldr: If u give Ronin 50 points for the win even tough they didn't score any point u have to take into account the handicapt because u are operating under assumption that the losing team fielded 50 points. Your not giving them the 50 points as a default - VC3: "If a team chooses to field less than 100 (50) points, unfielded points count towards the opponent's score". They fielded a team of zero, leaving 50pts unfielded thus the R0nin get 50 pts. I'm sorry to the R0nin but Womble makes a very good case. At no point in the rules does it say fielding a team of zero is illegal or results in the match being forfeit. Surely by this reasoning if a team in the group stage got a match with an alt alliance of there's they could just turn up with 1 dessy and have the other team not turn up basically putting them through the group stage? No, there's a 50 point minimum in the 10 man matches, but that could have been done anyway by having the other team bring the maximum points and then selfdestruct/allow themselves to be killed.
Faffywaffy Fremen Sietch DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.06.06 16:22:00 - [30] The decision to award The R0NIN handicap points is clearly wrong. Furthermore, considering the harsh, cold, "them's the breaks" attitude CCP usually takes towards players, the reasoning, as explained by CCP Zirnitra, invokes suspicions of favoritism. Yes, The R0NIN meant to field a handicap, but they didn't. I'm sure that, for example, Chain of Chaos, meant to obliterate all of their opponents' ships, but they didn't, and nobody pitied them or broke clearly stated rules to give them points.
Marcus Grisbius Gallente Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:09:00 - [31] I think it's quite obvious that ccp has no concept of the unfielded ship rule. Any unfielded points go to the opponent. Winner or loser no questions asked. That should clear up any issues with people not showing up. Ronin should have scored 62.5 and no more. In the LOST v DROOG match we both fielded fewer than 50 points which reduced our handicap. But that is offset by the unfielded ships rule. It's either/or. They should not receive both. I don't care if they paid a good chunk of change to get in or have been historically good. They didn't put up a good enough fight when they needed to and should be heading home. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
M4n1c M1n3r Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Icylce I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules: Victory Conditions 1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner. If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in: - no handicap 0-34 - points for win 01.25 - 0 points for winning team. U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part. I'm afraid there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here... Originally by:* From AT9 Rules Unused points will be added to the opponents score. The Ronin are VERY CLEARLY entitled to: 0 = Points killed 50 = Their opponent's unused points 25% = Win bonus Grand Total = 62.5 points. This no longer potentially affects RvB's standing BUT it is very disappointing that the rules should not be fully and consistently applied where they are very clear about a particular point. This isn't about opinions or judgement calls, IT'S THE RULES! Fake Edit Finally read the later comments and Womble makes the same point better than I do :) but I've typed it so I'm posting it. I would like to say finally (perhaps) to CCP that correcting an earlier mistake is much less damaging than not strictly applying the rules for one team.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:30:00 - [33] A team not showing up for their match is very different from fielding zero points. The rules don't really adequately cover a situation like this, so there is no right or wrong way to rule on it, and either way is unfair to someone. CCP made a judgement call and in this case it's the same one I would've made. Now if R0NIN had shown up with a single destroyer, and other team had been a no-show I wouldn't give them handicap points (and I'm pretty sure the dev ruling would've been different since this kinda situation simply isn't covered properly by the rules and is simply a judgement call.)
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:51:00 - [34] Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 17:54:29 Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk A team not showing up for their match is very different from fielding zero points. The rules don't really adequately cover a situation like this, so there is no right or wrong way to rule on it, and either way is unfair to someone. CCP made a judgement call and in this case it's the same one I would've made. Now if R0NIN had shown up with a single destroyer, and other team had been a no-show I wouldn't give them handicap points (and I'm pretty sure the dev ruling would've been different since this kinda situation simply isn't covered properly by the rules and is simply a judgement call.) Thats a very slippery slope and when does a setup become unviable? since what is viable is dependant on what your opponent fields if you field a destroyer but they field a T1 frig you have a chance to win and theoretically that could happen if there was a lot of intel and counter intel. If r0nins setup had met ours if we did not mess up i would say there is a 95% chance we would win. If they had met 2 rattlesnakes they would have lost. 2 Tengu setup might have been interesting but again i would say 75%+ of the time r0nin would lose. Even if the rules were not designed with this situation in mind they still work and regardless of whether 0 is a forfeit or a handicapped points total the final result should be the same because if its a forfeit you don't take anything else into account since what is being fielded is irrelevant you just say 1 team won gaining maximum normal points any bonus points cannot be gained. If you were to have someone forfeit in a sport like football the team would just be given a win they would not be given an extra goal difference because people thought they might have won anyway.
Sally Vager Itonula	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:52:00 - [35] Edited by: Sally Vager Itonula on 06/06/2011 17:52:18
M4n1c M1n3r Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.06 17:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk A team not showing up for their match is very different from fielding zero points. When there's no minimum points or pilots limit, then I'm afraid NO, there is absolutely no difference. There is no reason to interpret or make a judgement call, it's simply and clearly written for those that wish to see it in the rules. I'm also really not sure why if they only fielded a destroyer it would change your opinion as to whether to apply their undeserved bonus points or not. According to your own reasoning they would indeed be entitled to 50+48+25%. Or are we to believe that even judgement calls should be applied inconsistently? What if it had been two destroyers for example, or maybe three? Rules > Judgement Calls. Transparency and as much fairness as this game can provide are essential if the integrity of the Tournament is to maintained in the eyes of all its fans.
Motty 007 Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.06 18:06:00 - [37] Being cynical I guess one of the reasons is 14,500,000,000 or maybe that is more than one. But apart from TT and one other I think the majority of the eve community sits on the side of the EMO team. It is a shame that this has not been handled much more professionally by CCP. A lot of teams put in a lot of effort for this to basically be slapped in the face with the proverbial wet fish. EMO - guys I am sorry and feel bad about the REDS going through like that I feel your pain. Womble seems a decent bloke/girl/pilot whatever. Rant over - will get on with the job at hand now. Motty excarebear expiwate exhausted
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2011.06.06 18:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Motty 007 Being cynical I guess one of the reasons is 14,500,000,000 or maybe that is more than one. But apart from TT and one other I think the majority of the eve community sits on the side of the EMO team. It is a shame that this has not been handled much more professionally by CCP. A lot of teams put in a lot of effort for this to basically be slapped in the face with the proverbial wet fish. EMO - guys I am sorry and feel bad about the REDS going through like that I feel your pain. Womble seems a decent bloke/girl/pilot whatever. Rant over - will get on with the job at hand now. Bloke but i can be a your girl for the night with enough isk as an incentive . Actually on a slightly weird but related note i have actually volunteered to be the model/test subject/whatever for the daughter of one of the people i work with who is doing a effects make-up course thing. So on Wednesday she is attempting to make me look like a woman unfortunately i don't have the guts to post before and after pics here.
Xan Drakov Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.06.06 19:12:00 - [39] Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 19:13:09 Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 19:12:36 Originally by: Random Womble Originally by: Motty 007 Being cynical I guess one of the reasons is 14,500,000,000 or maybe that is more than one. But apart from TT and one other I think the majority of the eve community sits on the side of the EMO team. It is a shame that this has not been handled much more professionally by CCP. A lot of teams put in a lot of effort for this to basically be slapped in the face with the proverbial wet fish. EMO - guys I am sorry and feel bad about the REDS going through like that I feel your pain. Womble seems a decent bloke/girl/pilot whatever. Rant over - will get on with the job at hand now. Bloke but i can be a your girl for the night with enough isk as an incentive . Actually on a slightly weird but related note i have actually volunteered to be the model/test subject/whatever for the daughter of one of the people i work with who is doing a effects make-up course thing. So on Wednesday she is attempting to make me look like a woman unfortunately i don't have the guts to post before and after pics here. Share much? ;-) +1 for before and after pics
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.06.07 08:24:00 - [40] Sort it the Eve way: With blood and tears. Set up a three way (5v5v5) between Ronin, EMO and RvB-R. Televise it as the first match to kick of the weekend frolicking.
Motty 007 Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.07 09:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Sort it the Eve way: With blood and tears. Set up a three way (5v5v5) between Ronin, EMO and RvB-R. Televise it as the first match to kick of the weekend frolicking. Why RVB-R, I just do not think the decision is right for R0NIN. May as well say Paisti / WI / PL / etc etc Motty excarebear expiwate exhausted
Icylce Frost Palace	Posted - 2011.06.07 11:18:00 - [42] Originally by: M4n1c M1n3r Originally by: Icylce I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules: Victory Conditions 1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner. If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in: - no handicap 0-34 - points for win 01.25 - 0 points for winning team. U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part. I'm afraid there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here... Originally by:* From AT9 Rules Unused points will be added to the opponents score. The Ronin are VERY CLEARLY entitled to: 0 = Points killed 50 = Their opponent's unused points 25% = Win bonus Grand Total = 62.5 points. This no longer potentially affects RvB's standing BUT it is very disappointing that the rules should not be fully and consistently applied where they are very clear about a particular point. This isn't about opinions or judgement calls, IT'S THE RULES! Fake Edit Finally read the later comments and Womble makes the same point better than I do :) but I've typed it so I'm posting it. I would like to say finally (perhaps) to CCP that correcting an earlier mistake is much less damaging than not strictly applying the rules for one team. Opps. I missed that rule. You are tottaly right then Ronin should have gotten 50(unused)x1.25
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.07 12:34:00 - [43] buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu your anal rules lawyering isn't going to change the fact that not showing up for a match is completely different from fielding fewer points for a ranking advantage the handicap rule wasn't designed with no-shows in mind so a judgement call was required and made (they also got it right for a change, making a decision that benefits the quality of the tournament, ronin historically being a strong team unlike the team that would otherwise have been in 28th place which is just another average non-contender)
Xan Drakov Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.06.07 12:49:00 - [44] Edited by: Xan Drakov on 07/06/2011 12:52:38
Faffywaffy Fremen Sietch DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.06.07 12:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk your anal rules lawyering isn't going to change the fact that not showing up for a match is completely different from fielding fewer points for a ranking advantage Since there is no minimum required number of points to field, I have to conclude that a team is allowed to field 0 points. Now please explain how fielding 0 points would differ from what happened in the ronin match. Yes, it is "anal lawyering", but that is what the rules are for. If there is no rule that applies, then a judgement call needs to be made. But if there is a rule that applies, then people will base their decisions on that rule. If you later ignore the rule, people lose trust in your impartiality. There are many cases in a real-life court where the judge has to enforce some law even though everyone in the courtroom knows that the law wasn't meant to apply to the situation at hand. It was just a poorly written/thought out law. But it still gets enforced. You can't change the rules mid-game just because the rules were bad.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:52:00 - [46] So why would there be alternate teams if it's perfectly acceptable to field 0 points ? Anyways it's a moot point, you think that rule applies, I don't - judge already made his ruling.
The Hardman Amarr Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe	Posted - 2011.06.07 14:12:00 - [47] The way you guys are arguing is that the sure fire way to make a team go out that needs 63 points is to not field a team. This is obviously wrong. I think CCP made the right call here. Forfeiture does not equal handicap.

CCP Mindstar	Posted - 2011.06.07 14:21:00 - [48] Originally by: M4n1c M1n3r Originally by: Icylce I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules: Victory Conditions 1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner. If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in: - no handicap 0-34 - points for win 01.25 - 0 points for winning team. U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part. I'm afraid there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here... Originally by:* From AT9 Rules Unused points will be added to the opponents score. The Ronin are VERY CLEARLY entitled to: 0 = Points killed 50 = Their opponent's unused points 25% = Win bonus Grand Total = 62.5 points. This no longer potentially affects RvB's standing BUT it is very disappointing that the rules should not be fully and consistently applied where they are very clear about a particular point. This isn't about opinions or judgement calls, IT'S THE RULES! Fake Edit Finally read the later comments and Womble makes the same point better than I do :) but I've typed it so I'm posting it. I would like to say finally (perhaps) to CCP that correcting an earlier mistake is much less damaging than not strictly applying the rules for one team. This reasoning is correct if you assume that a total forfeit is treating the score as 0 fielded points. That assumption is however, incorrect. We treat forfeits as if the winning team face a full team and kill them all, and this is done for a reason. Low ranking teams who decide to not show up to their match can essentially grief other teams out of the tournament if they are trying to legitimately use the handicap rule to get extra points. The argument that The R0NIN did not kill a ship and still managed to progress is a compelling one, and to be honest they could be considered lucky that the other team didn't show up (given how many points they handicapped by). That said, that they killed no ships in their second fight is no fault of their own and they should not be penalized for it. In our opinion it is the only way to fairly call this match. This call was made long before the cutoff point was known for the group stage, and at that time we discussed at length the possibility that another team might be bumped out of contention if The R0NIN did make the cut. Ultimately though, we feel that it would be unfairly penalizing The R0NIN to make any other call. --

Marcus Grisbius Gallente Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe	Posted - 2011.06.07 15:28:00 - [49] Then what is the purpose for the unfielded ship rule? That is supposed to be the counter to the ships killed points in case the team fields fewer or in this case no points. There is no difference in fielding a destroyer and not showing up. The opponent still has the opportunity to collect the full points from the fight. Handicapping is a risk. We came in with a 9 point handicap but only received 4 because our opponent only fielded 45 pts. To say the situation is different because of a forfeit makes no sense because they already received the compensation for a no show with the unfielded points rule. Giving them a double bonus is not right since other teams that did fight opponents had no chance for the second bonus. That is completely unfair. Apply the rules as written during the competition. If there are changes to be made then adjust the rules for the following year. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
The Hardman Amarr Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe	Posted - 2011.06.07 18:21:00 - [50] Edited by: The Hardman on 07/06/2011 18:21:14 Yes. The rules that are written. Which is that a forfeiture is an automatic lost. It is not a 50 point handicap. It is impossible to have a 50 point handicap, because it is impossible to win with 0 points.
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2011.06.07 20:12:00 - [51] Edited by: Random Womble on 07/06/2011 20:14:22 Originally by: CCP Mindstar This reasoning is correct if you assume that a total forfeit is treating the score as 0 fielded points. That assumption is however, incorrect. We treat forfeits as if the winning team face a full team and kill them all, and this is done for a reason. Low ranking teams who decide to not show up to their match can essentially grief other teams out of the tournament if they are trying to legitimately use the handicap rule to get extra points. The argument that The R0NIN did not kill a ship and still managed to progress is a compelling one, and to be honest they could be considered lucky that the other team didn't show up (given how many points they handicapped by). That said, that they killed no ships in their second fight is no fault of their own and they should not be penalized for it. In our opinion it is the only way to fairly call this match. This call was made long before the cutoff point was known for the group stage, and at that time we discussed at length the possibility that another team might be bumped out of contention if The R0NIN did make the cut. Ultimately though, we feel that it would be unfairly penalizing The R0NIN to make any other call. Mindstar if a match is forfeited then the setup used is irrelevant the fact that one of you guys said that you made the descion based on the fact that you thought it was a viable setup but someone else could come with a horrible setup that you think was not viable but they may think is genius however even if they would have lost to almost anyone under the sun if your deciding this is a forfeit then that setup becomes irrelevant. As i mentioned if this was football (soccer for those strange people and mindstar himself) the other team would never be given an addition +10 goal difference (which is tbh effectively what this comes down to) just because you thought they might have won by that much anyway. The problem with the ruling is effectively you are arbitrarily deciding that UNIT would come with 50 points which may or may not be the case. Additionally you are then saying that you think R0NIN would win. TBH i actually have (or had possibly by now) an alt in UNIT i could happily have shown up in a single ship and R0NIN would have had no handicap. In fact if they really want a fight....... As i have stated before this is not about getting R0NIN out of the tournament i accepted that we are out because we lost when we should have won and that is our fault. This is about making sure that things are better next year. Also Tyrrax made a comment in the other thread about R0NIN being better than us so the tourney would be better unfortunately the thread seems to have gone now so i cant reply there but i will make my point here instead. The R0NIN may or may not be better than us so far this tournament they have shown nothing to indicate that they are. I would say setups wise we could quite happily compete with most people and you may look at what we lost with on Sunday and disagree but i know having fought in that fight we were winning until a small mistake was made and having tested it against a lot of other setups i was very happy with it. In terms of execution well we made some mistakes in our second fight which were costly and some in our first which were not but then i seem to remember one of the R0NINs pilots having a boundary violation in the first fight that lost it for them so not a great showing there. The truth of the matter is most of our pilots have barely touched eve recently so were a little rusty but then life > eve. Being a known entity or a celebrity does not make you good and having contacts doesn't either it also doesn't make you any more or less deserving of a place in the tournament. And the reason you will never hear of us is because were not big egos (except splash but most of his characters are currently elsewhere) we enjoy the small group nature of our alliance and if people want to do other things they have alts.
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2011.06.07 20:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Random Womble Also Tyrrax made a comment in the other thread about R0NIN being better than us so the tourney would be better unfortunately the thread seems to have gone now so i cant reply there but i will make my point here instead. The R0NIN may or may not be better than us so far this tournament they have shown nothing to indicate that they are. My last post was getting too long so I could not edit this in but I would just like to say I would find it very amusing if they are knocked out next round or just sc**** through against some horrible teams.
Tyrrax Thorrk Amarr Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.07 20:51:00 - [53] ronin made it to finals in a previous tournament, i forget if they won or were second place ;O Anyways no point in yelling at mindstar about it, not like ronin being better than you would factor into CCP's decision, they're not me. xD
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.06.08 06:27:00 - [54] Getting through the qualifiers without killing a single ship is a joke. Something different should have been done. The tournament rules are a joke. They reward teams for getting their stuff exploded. The best strategy is to wait until you have the last enemy ship in low structure, and then have every ship except one self destruct just in case you run into a tie like EMO and RVB did. You don't get penalized for losses. You get rewarded.
Saxton Hale	Posted - 2011.06.08 08:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk ronin made it to finals in a previous tournament, i forget if they won or were second place ;O R0NIN have changed quite a lot since then. They cascaded last autumn and a single corp rejoined to use the name for the tourney. And U'K beat them quite handily it seems, partly due to very poor piloting from one of the team.
SuperSlow	Posted - 2011.06.10 18:28:00 - [56] Should just do a frigate hull duel to the death, like the only the did for alliance tournament 3.
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.06.10 18:36:00 - [57] I think CCP made the right call with respect to the Ronin. Yes, they didn't really suffer from not having the full points on their team (and so maybe the "handicap" points are not really deserved), but it's not absolutely not fair to the Ronin to penalize them for their opponents not showing up. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)

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