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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9478
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:41:00 -
[421] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:[Damnation, loot pi+¦ata] So, not worth it, then. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:42:00 -
[422] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Depends on what ships (and how many) are needed to kill it. [Damnation, loot pi+¦ata] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Energized Thermic Membrane II [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense II [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Slave Alpha Slave Beta Slave Gamma Slave Delta Slave Epsilon Slave Omega Of course in fleet so it would benefit from small fleet boost. Frostys Virpio wrote:Whats the EHP of that 2 bill damnation? ~625k vs RF EMP Oh, I forgot mindlink...
Forgettign about mindlink, a ganker team would need to bring ~625k alpha damage at half the cost of what you haul for the gank to be worth it. If it's impossible, then you are "safe" to haul it in that ship. If it's over, you are technically juicy. The value of your ship is meaningless. It's tank and what it haul are the important point. |
Ryhss
Android Gang Stealth Syndicate
6
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:42:00 -
[423] - Quote
Another nerf high/low/null sec thread. I'm sick of these. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2118
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:42:00 -
[424] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:When someone makes it worthwhile it will be done. Are you saying that 1,8B in A-Types isn't enough? [
Yep. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
338
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:42:00 -
[425] - Quote
You know, traditionally goons have been about ruining the gameplay of others in order to harvest tears. What if their overarching plan is to ruin eve by influencing CCP to carebear-ize eve online to burn the hardcore playerbase?
That would certainly maximize the tear harvest. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:43:00 -
[426] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So, not worth it, then.
Is it about risk being too big or you don't have enough internet spaceship game friends? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9479
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:45:00 -
[427] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Is it about risk being too big or you don't have enough internet spaceship game friends? No. It's about it not carrying enough valuables.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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unloadedx16
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:45:00 -
[428] - Quote
Tippia wrote:unloadedx16 wrote:3) And yes that is exactly what I'm saying. For a big slow ship with no fitting slots and little means of defending itself, cost most definitely should equal cost. No, it really shouldn't, regardless of the ship. Quote:And in other words it's not?? Don't be silly. Of course it is. Since cost is not a balancing factor, a bunch of cheap ships ruining the day of a much more expensive one is working just as intended. If anything. 2:1 is far too low a ratio and you should be able to get the kill with far less than that, and the JF's 5:1 ratio is much more appropriate.
Ok then what do you think should be the balancing factor for ganking a freighter?
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:46:00 -
[429] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No. It's about it not carrying enough valuables.
I'll take that as "risk is too big for me" then. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:48:00 -
[430] - Quote
unloadedx16 wrote:Tippia wrote:unloadedx16 wrote:3) And yes that is exactly what I'm saying. For a big slow ship with no fitting slots and little means of defending itself, cost most definitely should equal cost. No, it really shouldn't, regardless of the ship. Quote:And in other words it's not?? Don't be silly. Of course it is. Since cost is not a balancing factor, a bunch of cheap ships ruining the day of a much more expensive one is working just as intended. If anything. 2:1 is far too low a ratio and you should be able to get the kill with far less than that, and the JF's 5:1 ratio is much more appropriate. Ok then what do you think should be the balancing factor for ganking a freighter?
How much isk worth he pupt in his cargo hold. Having thousands of m3 does nto eman it is to be used for anything. Fill a freighter with high priced T2 BPO and I am pretty sure no amount of tank buff you currently think of would be enough to prevent it from being ganked unless it's 100% unkillable |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9479
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:49:00 -
[431] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:I'll take that as "risk is too big for me" then. You do that, since you have long since shown your preference for being wrong about everything. There's no reason for you to break the streak, now is it?
GǪor you can take it for what it says: that it's not carrying enough valuables.
Oh, and since I missed unloadedx16's response due to Jorma being his usual always-wrong selfGǪ
unloadedx16 wrote:Ok then what do you think should be the balancing factor for ganking a freighter? The same as for everything else: what does it do? Is it capable of doing what it's supposed to be doing, and with how much effort? What options are available to improve its capabilities? What are its hard counters? What can it counter itself? How does it scale with other options for the same activity? Cost isn't a factor in any of that and it certainly can't balance anything out that isn't where it should be. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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unloadedx16
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:49:00 -
[432] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:unloadedx16 wrote:
I agree with you, yes the pilot did not make a very good decision for hauling so much isk worth that it would be potentially profitable to gank him (if the loot drop gods are on your side). What I'm arguing is that it should take more than 900mill to gank him in the first place.
So 6 15 mil frigates should never kill a 2 bil battleship?
A battleship has a different purpose than a freighter and has the OPTION to be tanky or ganky. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:50:00 -
[433] - Quote
That's why RFF never recommends to haul more than 1 bil worth of stuff in a freighter.
Good job taking those freighters down, nice to see that at least reasonably sized and organized group can do stuff in hi-sec these days. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:51:00 -
[434] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:No. It's about it not carrying enough valuables.
I'll take that as "risk is too big for me" then.
It's not really a risk in the case of a gank but a final cost. You will need X ship at Y price to blow up ship Z.If ship Z don't drop X * Y * 2 in loot, then it not worth the effort. The cost of the hauling ship is still meaningless. |
unloadedx16
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:53:00 -
[435] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:That's why RFF never recommends to haul more than 1 bil worth of stuff in a freighter.
Good job taking those freighters down, nice to see that at least reasonably sized and organized group can do stuff in hi-sec these days.
1bill is chump change, freighters need a slight buff so that 1bill bar can be raised. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9479
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 16:55:00 -
[436] - Quote
unloadedx16 wrote:1bill is chump change, freighters need a slight buff so that 1bill bar can be raised. Not really, no.
If you need to carry more value, use ships that are better suited for the purpose. They already exist and there's no reason to fiddle with the freighters to cover this already-covered niche. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:55:00 -
[437] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:It's not really a risk in the case of a gank but a final cost. You will need X ship at Y price to blow up ship Z.If ship Z don't drop X * Y * 2 in loot, then it not worth the effort. The cost of the hauling ship is still meaningless.
Well, Drop said it is possible to gank 600k EHP (or actually 700k if mindlink) Damnation with one Tornado in 1.0 system. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2118
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 16:56:00 -
[438] - Quote
unloadedx16 wrote: A battleship has a different purpose than a freighter and has the OPTION to be tanky or ganky.
The frieghter has the OPTION to not carry enough cargo to make it gank worthy. You even get an isk estimate on how much you have in the hold in the cargo tab so its not like you don't know theres 21 billion in there. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.12 16:57:00 -
[439] - Quote
unloadedx16 wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:That's why RFF never recommends to haul more than 1 bil worth of stuff in a freighter.
Good job taking those freighters down, nice to see that at least reasonably sized and organized group can do stuff in hi-sec these days. 1bill is chump change, freighters need a slight buff so that 1bill bar can be raised.
Maybe they were designed with hauling different things in mind. Instead of really valuable items, what if ti was bulky not so valuable items? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9479
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 17:00:00 -
[440] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Well, Drop said it is possible to gank 600k EHP (or actually 700k if mindlink) Damnation with one Tornado in 1.0 system. Eh, Drop hasn't posted in over four years. And no-one has said anything ever remotely like what you're claiming, so good job not breaking that GÇ£always being wrong about everythingGÇ¥-streak you've got going.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.12 17:03:00 -
[441] - Quote
Wrong Drop.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1912789#post1912789 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9479
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 17:08:00 -
[442] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Wrong Drop. Then maybe you should refer to their full name? The game reports 500 characters matching GÇ£dropGÇ¥, and none of them seem to have posted in this thread. Even for you, that's a spectacular level of being wrong (and you set the bar for being wrong amazingly high as it is).
GǪoh, and no-one has still said anything remotely like the claim in your strawman argument. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.12 17:13:00 -
[443] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:It's not really a risk in the case of a gank but a final cost. You will need X ship at Y price to blow up ship Z.If ship Z don't drop X * Y * 2 in loot, then it not worth the effort. The cost of the hauling ship is still meaningless. Well, Drop said it is possible to gank 600k EHP (or actually 700k if mindlink) Damnation with one Tornado in 1.0 system.
I'm pretty sure noone ever intended to gank 600k ehp worth of ship in a single tornado anywhere in high sec...
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.09.12 17:59:00 -
[444] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:It's not really a risk in the case of a gank but a final cost. You will need X ship at Y price to blow up ship Z.If ship Z don't drop X * Y * 2 in loot, then it not worth the effort. The cost of the hauling ship is still meaningless. Well, Drop said it is possible to gank 600k EHP (or actually 700k if mindlink) Damnation with one Tornado in 1.0 system.
Just stop. Stop cluttering this thread with off-topic trolling. It's an engaging read up until you start posting and some people try to engage your baffling trolling.
Why don't you go create a new thread entitled "Can a lone Tornado launch a 700k alpha strike?" because that's all you want to talk about (good for you?) despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the actual topic being discussed.
On topic - seems to be working as intended. Given the different ship options available for hauling cargo, freighters appear to be the "carry bulky, relatively inexpensive products" type of hauler. Thinking you need to jam every square meter of that hold with billions of isk worth of cargo is operator error, not design error.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.12 18:24:00 -
[445] - Quote
Why I get ganked in freighter full of Trit?
It's not even worth ganking it... |
baltec1
Bat Country
2123
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Posted - 2012.09.12 18:28:00 -
[446] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Why I get ganked in freighter full of Trit?
It's not even worth ganking it...
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
can't fly freighter yet so I would really want to make it as stupidly expensive as possible to gank my ship by using Damnation.
mmhmm... |
Agent Akari
Hobo Industries Inc
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 18:36:00 -
[447] - Quote
Don't you guys see it? Freighters are designed to be ganked. They are not designed to transfer goods, but are actually a isk sink and a target objective.
It's your job(s) to protect it, prevent it or do it at night when the goons are asleep for the next schoolday.
Perhaps it is safer to get 20 pilots with Iteron V and make a convoy, the chances of them reaching the destination is higher. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
155
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Posted - 2012.09.12 18:47:00 -
[448] - Quote
Ok, Now I have actually read through this hole mess of a thread. It seems although a few people have agreed freighters are a little to easy to gank. Nobody has agreed that running a shipment that would drop over 20 bil in loot is a wise idea.(take note OP)
Some have asked what sort of support fleet would have helped this situation. Well with such a high profit potential this load was doomed before it undocked. But there are ways of successfully supporting a freighter in high sec and beyond.
The best you can do for support on a freighter is not logistics to rep it up if it gets attacked. Usually just a waste. Most gankers will bring enough to pop it in the first volley.
You can use fleet boosts and implants to give a decent boost to your tank. Your ehp may be higher than the gankers expected.
Combine this with a scout who also has triple webs fitted.
Do not auto pilot, manually pilot and warp to zero/jump. you will not be on grid long enough to get targeted as you will jump through the gate.
your scout who jumped through the gate first will then hit you with the triple webs allowing you to warp within a couple seconds.
This set up is as safe as you can get. and with a few extra scouts watching stations, gates, and checking your route several jumps out, will even be a fairly safe way of moving through low sec. At least as safe as it can get.
I have done this in high sec and through low sec into null when needed. Planing, scouting, and preparation can keep a freighter fairly safe even traveling into null. But that involves waiting for the right time when you scouts can find you a clear route.
Running a freighter in high sec is very low risk. having an escort to scout and web you into warp drops that risk to near zero.
Unless of course you are dumb enough to run a freighter load worth more than 10 bil out of a trade hub through system known to contain gankers.
Do not be fooled by the misconception of the level of ganker risk. the risk to gank a freighter does not really fluctuate much. It is a very static risk and static cost to the gankers. any group looking to gank a freighter knows exactly what it is going to cost then in ships long before the first shot is fired.
The cost in ganknados minus the expected returns in loot and salvage from the gank ships and the basic freighter hull puts the max cost a little over 1 bil. As soon as there is a chance of over 1 bil of loot dropping your risk of getting ganked goes way up.
A gank squad using scouts and passive targeting modules can scan you several jumps before the gank and you will not even know you were scanned.(at least it used to work this way, I assume it still does.) and they select their targets well in advance. Even this risk can be reduced by not taking the most direct route. Most freighter ganking is done at pinch points where you have to pass through when traveling between trade hubs or heading to common destination systems out of Jita.They may scan dozens or even hundreds of ships before selecting a target.
A freighter with over 3 bil in cargo is juicy and pretty much guaranteed to drop move in loot than what the gank cost in ships. A freighter holding over 10 bil in its cargo is a very high risk any where near a common trade hub or highly traveled pipe. traveling these pipes with such a cargo AFK is not only high risk but insanely stupid. You are just asking to get ganked as even a poorly planed and executed freighter gank would be profitable with that kind of loot drop.
If you do not want to get ganked follow these simple rules.
1. do not ever run a freighter with more than 2 bil worth of stuff in its cargo hold. freighters are meant to hold high volume low value goods, not huge stacks of high value goods.
2. never never auto pilot. Manually warping to zero and jumping has been a good freighter pilots practice for a very long time. Now it is much easier as you can manually just select jump and you will auto warp to zero and jump. If you just find freighter piloting to be too boring and must afk a long trip, keep your cargo to high volume low value good with a total cargo worth less than 1 bil. The chances of getting ganked just for luls is almost zero.
3. If you must run a load of high value cargo such as high end battleships put some effort into minimizing the risk.
-If you have over 3 bil worth of cargo chances are you will get ganked if you are scanned. plan your route to avoid common pipes and choke points where gankers are known to operate.
-get a friend or alt to scout ahead looking for potential pirates and gate camps. use a friend or alt to web you from each gate to get you into warp faster.
- get a friend or alt with leadership and ganklink skills to fleet you and run the shield, armor, and agility gank links
-(in high sec all three of these can potentially be the same ship. you just need a ship that can fit all the mods, warp to and jump through the next gate while the freighter is still in warp. T3 cruiser work well for this but there are other cheaper ships that also work.) the friend/alt is then in next system looking for potential gankers, with the gank-links running, and ready to web as soon as you jump through. Provided you are manually piloting(warp to zero and jump) you will jump as soon as you reach the gate before they can target you.
- You can also buy the agility, armor hp, and/or hull hp implant mods. even the 1% hull hp adds a fair bit, but the 3% is still fairly cheap. this will significantly increase your ehp likely above the panned alfa allowing you to survive the first volley if you do get ganked. surviving the first volley is often all that is needed(at least when the gankers use ganknados) as CONCORD should show up before they get a second shot off.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.09.12 19:06:00 -
[449] - Quote
I didn't say anything about my alts... |
baltec1
Bat Country
2124
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Posted - 2012.09.12 19:11:00 -
[450] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:I didn't say anything about my alts...
Lets see the km then. |
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