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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.09.11 03:50:00 -
[241] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's not often I say this, but I'll go ahead and say it.
That (clearing out rookie system belts) is something you shouldn't be allowed to do.
It's a waste of time if you're in a barge anyhow. You pop a roid in less than a full cycle of your strip miner more often than not. I never did understand why miners would bother with 1.0 or .9 systems. .8 is barely worth the effort, and that's only because that's the first time Pyroxeres start showing up.
The weird thing is that there is a whole raft of roid-heavy .5 and .6 systems further out that are almost deserted. Systems with no stations are wide open, and that's a natural habitat for an Orca-led mining crew.
I guess I would chalk it up to laziness -- they don't want to haul ore and minerals too far to a trade hub. But if you're a miner by profession (which you are by definition if you're driving an Orca), then I can't understand why you wouldn't do everything you could to maximize your ISK/hr...and you're not gonna do that by hoovering up the scraps in noob systems. (Not to mention the dickishness involved in forcing the noobs to venture further afield to get their pathetic little gobs of ore for missions.)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9447
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Posted - 2012.09.11 03:52:00 -
[242] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:The way I see it if you're an older player you really have no business messing about in rookie systems. GǪand that's why the density should be so low that anyone that has gone beyond the most basic frigate will be wasting their time going there. Even more so when any larger ship will be wasting tons of time on all the moving around (between rocks and between sites) that they'd go through, unlike said frigate, which would be nippy enough to go wherever without any real loss.
Paul Oliver wrote:Right because people who can barely fly their ship to an asteroid belt much less mine should be forced to fly out to systems Quite the opposite, actually. Again, that's why the density should be much lower. But sure, if you say so. I don't see how your suggestion would be good for newbies, though.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
502
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Posted - 2012.09.11 03:54:00 -
[243] - Quote
Ghazu wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Paul Oliver wrote:It does seem kind of strange that a ship capable of hauling that much cargo which aligns and warps as slowly as a freighter does would not have the ability to fit any sort of defensive modules or atleast a method to avoid being tackled. Also the fact that a ship type that didn't even exist when freighters were introduced is being used exclusively to do the ganking implies that an imbalance exists and should be corrected, after all it's only logical that when a weapon is created that gives one side an advantage over another that a counter is also created. Tier 3 BCs trade off firepower for weak tank. You don't get to have everything in one ship, if you want tanking power use properly fitted orcas or transport ships or take 2 trips with the freighter.
I think you missed the part where I'm quoting Paul.... those are his words, not mine.
Also, to play devil's advocate, orca's and transport ships have very limited cargo capacity compared to freighters, and hence are often not viable. And to safely carry 10+b by freighter, you probably need to make 5+ trips or so (which is a significant amount of time!!!). A more viable, albeit still moderately risky method, is to double wrap your packages to prevent gankers from determining the value of your cargo. This itself is not without problems though, as insider information can still get you caught, it's also possible that gankers might risk the gank anyway, and I'm not 100% sure double-wrapping still works to inhibit cargo scanning.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9447
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Posted - 2012.09.11 04:02:00 -
[244] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Also, to play devil's advocate, orca's and transport ships have very limited cargo capacity compared to freighters, and hence are often not viable. And to safely carry 10+b by freighter, you probably need to make 5+ trips or so (which is a significant amount of time!!!). GǪto which the standard counter-question is: which takes more time, a second and third trip or earning back the 10bn you just lost? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1465
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 04:04:00 -
[245] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Karl Hobb wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:That's... a thing, huh.
That shouldn't be a thing. That's exactly what I thought about that link in your sig... The sig made me rage cuz I saw a french name then nothing else in french. WTF??? As for ganking to be on topic, people need to stop loading thier ship with that much isk... I'm sure there's french stuff in the "proceedings".
But yeah, you load your freighter to the gills with expensive stuff, well then ... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
503
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 04:17:00 -
[246] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Also, to play devil's advocate, orca's and transport ships have very limited cargo capacity compared to freighters, and hence are often not viable. And to safely carry 10+b by freighter, you probably need to make 5+ trips or so (which is a significant amount of time!!!). GǪto which the standard counter-question is: which takes more time, a second and third trip or earning back the 10bn you just lost?
It always boils down to, is the risk worth the reward... or how can I mitigate the risks while maximizing the long-term rewards...
If 5 trips takes you 5 hours to complete, and 1 trip takes you an hour.... and perhaps you gamble that you'll only get ganked once out every 10 times.... then the 1 hour trips could easily be worth it!!
Personally, I'd recommend breaking it into 10 1b isk trips, and courier contract them all to redfrog with collateral....
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Agent Akari
Hobo Industries Inc
31
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Posted - 2012.09.11 04:18:00 -
[247] - Quote
So to make this short, nobody likes to play support and use remote armor ships to prevent a Freighter from getting destroyed? |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1657
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 04:21:00 -
[248] - Quote
Agent Akari wrote:So to make this short, nobody likes to play support and use remote armor ships to prevent a Freighter from getting destroyed? I would totally offer that service were I able to. Seems the best way to deal with situations like this isn't to complain, but to adapt, and make some isk off it. I still think freighters should be looked at though, if only to provide them the ability to fit a few warp core stabilizers. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1692
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 04:22:00 -
[249] - Quote
look man, it's unreasonable to expect people to actually defend their 21 billion in assets when they're autopiloting them through highsec. defending it just wouldn't be worth it m8 |
Ghazu
157
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 04:26:00 -
[250] - Quote
I think the Maelstrom's bullshit shield boosting bonus should be rebalanced to 10% shield resist or 10% hp per level. |
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.09.11 04:51:00 -
[251] - Quote
Reading about all that ganking happening in that system reminds me of my 2 pod trip in there back when I didn't know about shuttle. Newbie make stupid moves sometime... |
Orzo Torasson
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
63
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:03:00 -
[252] - Quote
Mohamad Transporte wrote:just few minutes ago... Goons has destroyed 4 freighters in high sec (u can check eve-kill.net), total drop worth 21.5 billion isk!!!
21.5 Billion isk people!!!!
that beats 10/10 DED, FW Missions and incursions all together!!
if u want all alliances to leave their 0.0 systems and just go fun terrorizing high sec and earn money for that... stay cool about it CCP... as it will destroy the game
u gave protection for miners... its time for freighters/ JF revamp...
TEST occasionally ganks freighters too. But in return, we lose them more often than any other entity in EVE. Nerf gankers. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
273
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:21:00 -
[253] - Quote
I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives.
It's obvious logic. You don't make a ship out of tinfoil and throw it on the ocean, then send it through pirate territory or even into potentially hazardous waters. You make it tough as hell, give it at least some means to fight off attackers for a short time and if it's carrying valuable cargo, you send an escort with it.
Even with an Escort fleet, the chances are it is going to have to survive for a time and will sustain damage, so the previous logic holds.
No reason why EVE should be any different except to favor gank bears and give them easy kills.
Nations and Corporations don't design stuff and field it with a high potential risk of profit loss. Most of the 'Industrial ships' in games however, are designed to be so easily destroyed and incapable that it makes you wonder. Even single player spaceship games suffer from this oversight.
On the other hand, provided appropriate armament, a skilled pilot, and a little focus and determination a Fighter Jet could do significant damage to a transport ship before it ran out of ammunition. It might even sink it, but for whatever reason, those things are practically capsizing just from the loads they carry. That's what happens when people grow complacent in the absence of danger I guess.
Of course, it is a heck of a lot of cargo containers to search, and most of it will probably end up on the bottom of the ocean if you even attempt to attack it with any significant armament anyway, so I'm not sure anyone would bother. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1692
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:24:00 -
[254] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1664
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:54:00 -
[255] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? Moot point, shuttles don't need lots of hitpoints because warp almost instantly. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1692
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:00:00 -
[256] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? Moot point, shuttles don't need lots of hitpoints because warp almost instantly. How does that make it a moot point? Say they bring an instalocking frig, I should be entitled to tens if not hundreds of thousands of EHP on my shuttle right? |
Borlag Crendraven
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
83
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:00:00 -
[257] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? Moot point, shuttles don't need lots of hitpoints because warp almost instantly.
Moot point because you can't balance freighters or anything else for that matter to withstand attacks from far greater group. Or did you perhaps ignore the fact that the killmail had 15 battlecruisers in it, that's how many it took to kill it. At what point would you consider it balanced? When it requires 150? Simply put, it's working as intended as a solo pilot should not be able to survive after making a mistake and getting cauhgt in a camp like that.
And for those asking for a nerf to the profits. That's almost like asking for the gankees to start thinking and fitting/filling their boats smarter so that they are not aloot pinata like was with these freighters that got ganked. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
504
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:02:00 -
[258] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives.
It's obvious logic. You don't make a ship out of tinfoil and throw it on the ocean, then send it through pirate territory or even into potentially hazardous waters. You make it tough as hell, give it at least some means to fight off attackers for a short time and if it's carrying valuable cargo, you send an escort with it.
Even with an Escort fleet, the chances are it is going to have to survive for a time and will sustain damage, so the previous logic holds.
A freighter does have a significant amount of EHP.... ~200k EHP. This is enough to withstand bombardment by multiple ships while it waits for concord to arrive.... However, no matter how much EHP you give it, there will always be a number of ships that when working together, can destroy it before concord arrives. Just like, no matter what escort your bring, nor how tanky a ship on the ocean is, if an enemy through's enough fighter bombers at it, they'll sink the ship.
The 21b Obelisk on evekill took 6 gankfit talos to destroy it.... At 80m per ship, that's about 500m to gank it, meaning they need to carry 1b in goods before it becomes statistically likely they'll break even on the gank. Where should that limit be?? Personally, I find 1b is a reasonable limit, especially when there are tricks and techniques you can use to limit your "risk of gankage"!
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Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:25:00 -
[259] - Quote
I actually wouldn't bother increasing a freighters ehp; it has enough already. I'd just like to see it have a fitting or two becuase it is boring.
The industrials and such are pretty wimpy though for the most part. High align times, slow, slower with tank or otherwise just easy targets that are easy to catch and kill. Not really worth much. I imagine most people just train them to get transports or to haul cheap trash around like I did.
Nicola is being his usual self I see; grossly over-exagerating and making erroneous assumptions about my intent with little or no indication as to what it might be. Not in a literal sense or directed at anything specific anyway.
Really, I just posted because I noticed it was gank-heavy in here and needed a little balance.
T1 Industrials could use some changes if anything, and Freighters could use some tuning options that wouldn't be highly exploitable. There isn't much that wouldn't be exploitable obviously, but something would be nice.
T2 Industrials could simply use a little adjustment to bring them in line with any changes to their T1 counterparts, but really, they aren't bad as they are. Maybe a little extra ehp on the non-covops transports or some changes to resistances or transport level bonuses. Guns would be nice, (just because), and it would go with the Bustards camo-scheme.
..actually, that's not a bad idea, and would make for some interesting fits, but I don't imagine it would really be that impressive or change much with regard to how they are used.
On the other hand, it would be neat to see a fleet of 20 Heavy Transports get on a kb to the detriment of some poor, unsuspecting ganker.
I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4570
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:56:00 -
[260] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? Moot point, shuttles don't need lots of hitpoints because warp almost instantly.
Doesn't help them when they're outpiloting though.
Honestly all this "a bloo hoo Freighters can't fight back" is bullshit, because it would matter if you gave freighters 8 doomsdays each, they'll still die because PEOPLE AUTOPILOT THEM. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:01:00 -
[261] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Paul Oliver wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? Moot point, shuttles don't need lots of hitpoints because warp almost instantly. Doesn't help them when they're outpiloting though. Honestly all this "a bloo hoo Freighters can't fight back" is bullshit, because it would matter if you gave freighters 8 doomsdays each, they'll still die because PEOPLE AUTOPILOT THEM.
Maybe they autopilot them because there isn't anything else you could do with them. What are you going to do, cycle a module? I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Ghazu
159
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:05:00 -
[262] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Malcanis wrote:Paul Oliver wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I'm still firmly of the opinion that anything without guns to defend itself, flying through any space that has potential hostiles should have been designed to survive most attacks until support arrives. how many tens of thousands of EHP should shuttles have exactly? Moot point, shuttles don't need lots of hitpoints because warp almost instantly. Doesn't help them when they're outpiloting though. Honestly all this "a bloo hoo Freighters can't fight back" is bullshit, because it would matter if you gave freighters 8 doomsdays each, they'll still die because PEOPLE AUTOPILOT THEM. Maybe they autopilot them because there isn't anything else you could do with them. What are you going to do, cycle a module? Read what you wrote again and tell me if it sounds stupid. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4570
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:06:00 -
[263] - Quote
Maybe you could be actively cooperating with a corp mate to web warp Your freighter? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
GOTMYEYEONYOU
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:11:00 -
[264] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Maybe you could be actively cooperating with a corp mate to web warp Your freighter? so ganker shoots the webber first. was that your awesome solution? cause its pretty fail.
edit: also, let me point out that bumping the freighte renders all efforts moot what, not relevant enough? or have you decided to make it personal? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1693
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:22:00 -
[265] - Quote
- wow, theres 8 paragraphs gone |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:25:00 -
[266] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote:I actually wouldn't bother increasing a freighters ehp; it has enough already. I'd just like to see it have a fitting or two becuase it is boring. The industrials and such are pretty wimpy though for the most part. High align times, slow, slower with tank or otherwise just easy targets that are easy to catch and kill. Not really worth much. I imagine most people just train them to get transports or to haul cheap trash around like I did. Nicola is being his usual self I see; grossly over-exagerating and making erroneous assumptions about my intent with little or no indication as to what it might be. Not in a literal sense or directed at anything specific anyway. Really, I just posted because I noticed it was gank-heavy in here and needed a little balance. T1 Industrials could use some changes if anything, and Freighters could use some tuning options that wouldn't be highly exploitable. There isn't much that wouldn't be exploitable obviously, but something would be nice. T2 Industrials could simply use a little adjustment to bring them in line with any changes to their T1 counterparts, but really, they aren't bad as they are. Maybe a little extra ehp on the non-covops transports or some changes to resistances or transport level bonuses. Guns would be nice, (just because), and it would go with the Bustards camo-scheme. ..actually, that's not a bad idea, and would make for some interesting fits, but I don't imagine it would really be that impressive or change much with regard to how they are used. On the other hand, it would be neat to see a fleet of 20 Heavy Transports get on a kb to the detriment of some poor, unsuspecting ganker.
You must have had a point to quoting this; I'm just not sure what it was. Actually, I'd guess that you think I just validated your previous post indicating that I wanted to boost Freighter ehp to some monstrous level that would require maybe another 3-4 Battlecruisers to gank effectively.
..except that I just indicated the only thing I'd like to see on Freighters is some unexploitable mods to make them more interesting instead of the floating beachballs they are currently.
Do you read?
..nevermind, it was shuttles, which are hardly industrials with only 10 m3 of cargo capacity. Either way.. if it had been freighters, at least your point would have been at least partially relevent. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1693
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:28:00 -
[267] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote: You must have had a point to quoting this; I'm just not sure what it was. Actually, I'd guess that you think I just validated your previous post indicating that I wanted to boost Freighter ehp to some monstrous level that would require maybe another 3-4 Battlecruisers to gank effectively.
..except that I just indicated the only thing I'd like to see on Freighters is some unexploitable mods to make them more interesting instead of the floating beachballs they are currently.
Do you read?
No actually the forum ate my lengthy post in reply. Settle down beavis. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:30:00 -
[268] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Mars Theran wrote: You must have had a point to quoting this; I'm just not sure what it was. Actually, I'd guess that you think I just validated your previous post indicating that I wanted to boost Freighter ehp to some monstrous level that would require maybe another 3-4 Battlecruisers to gank effectively.
..except that I just indicated the only thing I'd like to see on Freighters is some unexploitable mods to make them more interesting instead of the floating beachballs they are currently.
Do you read?
No actually the forum ate my lengthy post in reply. Settle down beavis.
ah.. you do know the forum has a draft feature right? click, copy, pasty, and we're all good. Bit late now though maybe. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
111
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:31:00 -
[269] - Quote
Wow this is still not dead? |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:48:00 -
[270] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Maybe you could be actively cooperating with a corp mate to web warp Your freighter?
I've actually done that. Not my freighter, but someone elses. Wasn't much fun.
@previous poster: It was deeply entrenched sarcasm. Freighters don't have modules.
My point was the Freighter can't really do anything and aside from that little trick, (which doesn't help much), is essentially a large beach ball that you pop in the air and wait for it to land. Hopefully nobody pops it with a fork along the way.
Sure, you can bring a big fleet to escort it, but how does that help against the gang of 30 Tornados come to one shot gank it, and the Neutral ship to scoop the loot?Sure, you could also be present and accounted for and warp to zero, but it doesn't stop somebody from bumping you off course when you are trying to align from a gate and preventing you warping.
Now all they need is the fork and the bumper is a neutral party.
You could get a Fleet member to gank the Neutral party, (bumper or grinder), but what if they have more than one? Industrials are cheap; they could have a dozen, or a couple dozen.
Beachball < Fork
..or spork if you like.
So all the tricks in the book will net you one thing: The gankers will counter them with the appropriate measure. It's not even challenging for them; just spend ISK and receive cookies.
So, why not autopilot?
Because it's so much more fun ganking a Freighter with an active pilot than the one where the autopilot is on and the guy isn't going to know until he gets back from watching 4 hours of that Red Dwarf marathon.
No juicy tears to savor until he posts a whine thread in C&P or comments on the killboards, no screams in local until he comes back and sees his pod floating in space next to a can labelled "We pwned you and has your stuffz," long after you're gone, etc...
So really, no reason.
I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
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