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LazerusLong
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Posted - 2011.06.09 07:59:00 -
[1]
You know I've been pleased with the whole upgrades to do with the mining capital ships. However the bonus of these ships really doesn't help the solo miner. You either have to have a second account with a rorq pilot or know someone in your corp/alliance that has one and is online with you at the same time to increase your mining yield. Now eve has been out for over 10 years now and ships have been upgraded time and time again. However the max mining yield of a mining barge still remains about the same as when the game first came out. The max mining yield has only increased about 500m3 per cycle and I think that it is time to develop a mining capital ship with a mining laser that is specifically fitted for it and a larger cargo hold. At the moment most carebears in null sec are opting for taking on havens and such instead of doing any grav sites as the havens are making them more iskies per min and the cost of a hulk in null is sky high, in fact even in high sec you can make more by doing lvl 4 missions than with mining. and with less capital outlay. which means that once a miner reaches a certain level of BS skills they decide to start doing lvl 4 missions and only usually show up for mining ops that have newbies learning the game. I think that since in some corporations it is mandatory to show up to these ops if you are online there should be greater rewards for those of us who have maxed out our mining skills. Sure we can setup planetary, invention, and production skills but all of these things take alot of time to actually make any isk and if we had a cap mining ship to sit in while we were doing these other things then there would be alot more minerals available in null sec and lowsec systems for ship/module production. When I first heard about the cap industrial ship I thought that they were planning to have new mining lasers that we could fit onto the ships that would be proportional to the cost of the ship. However what we got was a mining support vessel. it does bring up our mining yield to over 2000m3 per 3mins but if you do the math on the cost of the support ship (which now that you have to have one for the usage of mining director 5) the difference in the mining yield means that you would have to mine (on a second account) for about 5-6 months just to make up the difference of the cost of the ship versus the gain. The truth of this is that if you have a second account it is better to simply use it for another hulk... You'll make more money in the long run as the bonuses from the cap mining ship are not more than the mining yield of a second hulk. Thank you for your time.
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Rogue1004
Caldari Genbuku. Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:08:00 -
[2]
You know i took one look at this and my eyes bled. Wall of text is very texty!
Chief Executive Officer - Black Knight Buccaneers. |
miniCarl
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rogue1004 You know i took one look at this and my eyes bled. Wall of text is very texty!
I didn't read it :D
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:31:00 -
[4]
Originally by: LazerusLong You know I've been pleased with the whole upgrades to do with the mining capital ships. However the bonus of these ships really doesn't help the solo miner. You ............................................................................................. the mining yield of a second hulk. Thank you for your time.
This is an mmo; the point of these industrial capital ships is to assist in group ops with multiple players. No one is forcing anyone to get a second hulk just to use them.. or have multiple accounts. You should investigate joining an active corp so that they could beneift from your boosting and bonuses.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: LazerusLong
.... the bonus of these ships really doesn't help the solo miner.
There's your problem. One person is not supposed to be as effective as a group a miners.
Originally by: LazerusLong
You either have to have a second account with a rorq pilot or know someone in your corp/alliance that has one and is online with you at the same time to increase your mining yield.
Have your tried running your links on a plain ol' command ship? They can do that you know. Mind you, it won't be as effective as a Rorqual but it's better than nothing (it's cheaper too!).
Originally by: LazerusLong
Now eve has been out for over 10 years now and ships have been upgraded time and time again. However the max mining yield of a mining barge still remains about the same as when the game first came out. The max mining yield has only increased about 500m3 per cycle and I think that it is time to develop a mining capital ship with a mining laser that is specifically fitted for it and a larger cargo hold.
No, it isn't.
Originally by: LazerusLong
At the moment most carebears in null sec are opting for taking on havens and such instead of doing any grav sites as the havens are making them more iskies per min ... <snip> ... in fact even in high sec you can make more by doing lvl 4 missions than with mining.
This is a merely an effect of a wider problem with mining.
Originally by: LazerusLong
and the cost of a hulk in null is sky high,
That's because CCP increased the material requirements for building one a few patches ago. Supposedly it was to make it more "cost prohibitive" for people to just jump into one and start mining away.
Originally by: LazerusLong
we can setup planetary, invention, and production skills but all of these things take alot of time to actually make any isk and if we had a cap mining ship to sit in while we were doing these other things then there would be alot more minerals available in null sec and lowsec systems for ship/module production.
3 things:
1. Prioritize. Do you WANT to mine or do other stuff? Do you NEED to mine or other stuff? There is always going to be some sacrifice regarding what you can and cannot do (or what is profitable to do and not to do) based on the time you have available and the in-game market. 2. I believe CCP has said somewhere that it will never create a ship that can outmine the Hulk. 3. The reason running level 4 missions and sanctums is more profitable than mining is because WE HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE MINING. The price for minerals isn't just made up. It's based on how much is available (supply) and how much people need it (demand). Right now, we have a situation where demand is more or less "stable" while supply has skyrocketed (and continues to go up).
Running off from my 3 point (and striking into the heart of your idea); to have a large capital class ship that can directly mine the same way a barge can WILL NOT bring profitability back into the mining profession. In fact, over the long term it will will do the exact OPPOSITE.
Lemme run you through the logic... Your ship is put into the game. People immediately begin training for and jumping into the ship. People mine in these ships for the higher mining yields. With the higher mining yields, more minerals are gained. More minerals gained means more will be on market. With more minerals on market, their value will drop. When values drop, miners must mine in greater quantities to make "decent" ISK. Then some guy proposes a NEW ship be introduced that can outmine YOUR ship so mining can again become profitable. And so we come full circle.
One last thing... paragraphs. Use them. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
EthanPow
Caldari Drakeal Inc. Drakeal Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:35:00 -
[6]
This is what I got out of all that.
I want to see a Mining Capital ship that is better than a hulk but not better than 2 hulks, costly to make but not worth it to use. Since He hasn't seen a real change in how mining is done in 0.0, pretty much a step up form the Hulk.
My resonance
I do wish there was a better miner but it would have to be a Capital Mining Barge and be like the Industrial Capital Ship and go into siege to start mining and require good boosts to really be efficient than a hulk but not 2 hulks as stated in OP. maybe you need PI and other stuff to boost your mining, like spare parts, capital Mining crystals and such to really be worth it if you have the logistics up. this may not help botting but I do agree we need something in the lines of a MINING capital ship.
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LazerusLong
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: EthanPow This is what I got out of all that.
I want to see a Mining Capital ship that is better than a hulk but not better than 2 hulks, costly to make but not worth it to use. Since He hasn't seen a real change in how mining is done in 0.0, pretty much a step up form the Hulk.
My resonance
I do wish there was a better miner but it would have to be a Capital Mining Barge and be like the Industrial Capital Ship and go into siege to start mining and require good boosts to really be efficient than a hulk but not 2 hulks as stated in OP. maybe you need PI and other stuff to boost your mining, like spare parts, capital Mining crystals and such to really be worth it if you have the logistics up. this may not help botting but I do agree we need something in the lines of a MINING capital ship.
I'm actually glad to see that one of these guys gets my point...
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Minmatar The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2011.06.09 12:48:00 -
[8]
EVE has been here for 10 years???
Feels more like 7.... 8 tops.
Maybe you are ahead of your time.
And... no Barges in 2003/2004... I am dead certain of that. -----------------------------------------------
Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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Commander IceQ
Caldari Spit and Ductape Maintenance
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Posted - 2011.06.09 14:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: LazerusLong
Originally by: EthanPow ...but I do agree we need something in the lines of a MINING capital ship.
I'm actually glad to see that one of these guys gets my point...
If you bothered reading the replies then you will have seen ShahFluffers made a very valid point.
QFT:
Originally by: ShahFluffers 3 things:
1. Prioritize. Do you WANT to mine or do other stuff? Do you NEED to mine or other stuff? There is always going to be some sacrifice regarding what you can and cannot do (or what is profitable to do and not to do) based on the time you have available and the in-game market. 2. I believe CCP has said somewhere that it will never create a ship that can outmine the Hulk. 3. The reason running level 4 missions and sanctums is more profitable than mining is because WE HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE MINING. The price for minerals isn't just made up. It's based on how much is available (supply) and how much people need it (demand). Right now, we have a situation where demand is more or less "stable" while supply has skyrocketed (and continues to go up).
Running off from my 3 point (and striking into the heart of your idea); to have a large capital class ship that can directly mine the same way a barge can WILL NOT bring profitability back into the mining profession. In fact, over the long term it will will do the exact OPPOSITE.
Lemme run you through the logic... Your ship is put into the game. People immediately begin training for and jumping into the ship. People mine in these ships for the higher mining yields. With the higher mining yields, more minerals are gained. More minerals gained means more will be on market. With more minerals on market, their value will drop. When values drop, miners must mine in greater quantities to make "decent" ISK. Then some guy proposes a NEW ship be introduced that can outmine YOUR ship so mining can again become profitable. And so we come full circle.
If you want mining to be profitable CCP should actually LOWER the Yields, so supplies can drop and mineral prices can go up. However the reverse effect of that will be that the prices of ships and modules using those minerals will go up.
It is hard to satisfy everyone. Sure I would like to make more isk with Mining (1 Orca Pilot, 2x Hulks & Hauler) but I don't see the point in breaking the market. My Signature is too large... O_o |
Shana Matika
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Posted - 2011.06.09 14:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Commander IceQ
Originally by: LazerusLong
Originally by: EthanPow ...but I do agree we need something in the lines of a MINING capital ship.
I'm actually glad to see that one of these guys gets my point...
If you bothered reading the replies then you will have seen ShahFluffers made a very valid point.
QFT:
Originally by: ShahFluffers 3 things:
1. Prioritize. Do you WANT to mine or do other stuff? Do you NEED to mine or other stuff? There is always going to be some sacrifice regarding what you can and cannot do (or what is profitable to do and not to do) based on the time you have available and the in-game market. 2. I believe CCP has said somewhere that it will never create a ship that can outmine the Hulk. 3. The reason running level 4 missions and sanctums is more profitable than mining is because WE HAVE TOO MANY PEOPLE MINING. The price for minerals isn't just made up. It's based on how much is available (supply) and how much people need it (demand). Right now, we have a situation where demand is more or less "stable" while supply has skyrocketed (and continues to go up).
Running off from my 3 point (and striking into the heart of your idea); to have a large capital class ship that can directly mine the same way a barge can WILL NOT bring profitability back into the mining profession. In fact, over the long term it will will do the exact OPPOSITE.
Lemme run you through the logic... Your ship is put into the game. People immediately begin training for and jumping into the ship. People mine in these ships for the higher mining yields. With the higher mining yields, more minerals are gained. More minerals gained means more will be on market. With more minerals on market, their value will drop. When values drop, miners must mine in greater quantities to make "decent" ISK. Then some guy proposes a NEW ship be introduced that can outmine YOUR ship so mining can again become profitable. And so we come full circle.
If you want mining to be profitable CCP should actually LOWER the Yields, so supplies can drop and mineral prices can go up. However the reverse effect of that will be that the prices of ships and modules using those minerals will go up.
It is hard to satisfy everyone. Sure I would like to make more isk with Mining (1 Orca Pilot, 2x Hulks & Hauler) but I don't see the point in breaking the market.
This. Just because you get more m¦/min dosn't mind you get more isk/min...in fact this will just cause one: more minerals who will sell for less (demand and supply as mentioned a lot of times).
BUT: There will be a place for some sort of mining ship with much better defence then a hulk but at a price (lower yield). A capital ship with 3 Highslots and a limit to fit just one capital strip miner. This would yield as much as 3 normal T2 strips and use crystals, too. The other 2 slots are for utility like cap shield transfers etc. Drone bay with 300m¦ and 125mbit/s bandwidth. 25.000 m¦ orebay and dread size fuel bay + 5000m¦ cargobay.
Bonus to shieldtransporter range.
If a gang would ambush a gang of these they won't have an easy prey like today...3 sb just uncloak, fire, pop hulk, cloak, rinse and repeat.
Everything just a short shoot but all togheter much better then just a titan-hulk...
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Digital Messiah
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Posted - 2011.06.09 20:28:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/06/2011 20:31:02
Quote: There's your problem. One person is not supposed to be as effective as a group a miners.
But one person is supposed to be as effective as your entire frigate / cruiser fleet lulzing in a titan?
Quote: If you want mining to be profitable CCP should actually LOWER the Yields, so supplies can drop and mineral prices can go up. However the reverse effect of that will be that the prices of ships and modules using those minerals will go up.
Right because the prices would go up so much you would make up the difference and more with lowered yield amounts? Or would botters / rorqual boosted 0.0 alliance miners still be making the bread?
Quote: Don't Panic
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:15:00 -
[12]
Edited by: ShahFluffers on 09/06/2011 21:17:41
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/06/2011 20:31:02
Quote: There's your problem. One person is not supposed to be as effective as a group a miners.
But one person is supposed to be as effective as your entire frigate / cruiser fleet lulzing in a titan?
Apples and oranges but the concept still stands. One large ship isn't terribly effective against a horde of smaller ships that know what they are doing.
As for supercaps in general... their ewar immunity kinda makes them OPed. But that's a separate topic altogether.
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Quote: If you want mining to be profitable CCP should actually LOWER the Yields, so supplies can drop and mineral prices can go up. However the reverse effect of that will be that the prices of ships and modules using those minerals will go up.
Right because the prices would go up so much you would make up the difference and more with lowered yield amounts? Or would botters / rorqual boosted 0.0 alliance miners still be making the bread?
Eventually it would (provided that the mining population remains as is or drops). You have to think in the long term when dealing with the market. Lower yields means supply will drop, leading to greater "scarcity" and thus higher prices. It's economics 101.
_______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
yoyomehearties
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Posted - 2011.06.10 11:03:00 -
[13]
i dont think a cap mining barge is a good idea. however, i think a better 0.0 mining ship would be awesome. have it get a base bonus of +1 or +2 to warp stability, have it able to fit like 4x guns and 3x strip miners. however, lower the yield so it doesnt mine as well as a hulk, but you gain some defense, some escape ability, give it ability to tank and maybe kill frigs and/or rats in belts.
basically a cross between a hulk and a cruiser and a transport ship. less reward, less risk, more longevity.
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Digital Messiah
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Posted - 2011.06.10 14:24:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 10/06/2011 14:25:07
Originally by: ShahFluffers Edited by: ShahFluffers on 09/06/2011 21:17:41
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/06/2011 20:31:02
Quote: There's your problem. One person is not supposed to be as effective as a group a miners.
But one person is supposed to be as effective as your entire frigate / cruiser fleet lulzing in a titan?
Apples and oranges but the concept still stands. One large ship isn't terribly effective against a horde of smaller ships that know what they are doing.
As for supercaps in general... their ewar immunity kinda makes them OPed. But that's a separate topic altogether.
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Quote: If you want mining to be profitable CCP should actually LOWER the Yields, so supplies can drop and mineral prices can go up. However the reverse effect of that will be that the prices of ships and modules using those minerals will go up.
Right because the prices would go up so much you would make up the difference and more with lowered yield amounts? Or would botters / rorqual boosted 0.0 alliance miners still be making the bread?
Eventually it would (provided that the mining population remains as is or drops). You have to think in the long term when dealing with the market. Lower yields means supply will drop, leading to greater "scarcity" and thus higher prices. It's economics 101.
It has a lot of common ground. You have one person making a huge impact in any scenario and everyone can do it. So whats the problem? Mining doesn't have to to be the ass end of eve. But everyone hates it so much and carebear teared their characters to combat so they don't have to imagine coming back to it.
Here is the problem with your economics 101 logic. The player based mining rate may deflate. But alliances and bots will always need their own fleets of miners. Lowering yield would only hurt industry in general. If CCP wants to change the market for the better, they simply should increase the total requirements and waste factor of building. Not to mention items should have building fluctuation far greater than we have now.
Simple fix for our super cap problem. Make it take 3-4 months to build one and have it require an entire pos's slots.
Quote: Don't Panic
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