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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:08:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: baltec1 Instant gratification monkies have no place in eve and should be shot on sight.
Once a year is instant gratification?
wow
It's not about instant gratification.
It's more to do with character building and having responsibility for the way you develop a character. You make it so that you can alter all you know which effects what you can do on a regular basis and you defeat the point of learning anything. You might as well do away with having to learn anything and just start with everything if you go down that road. If they were to do that at anytime in the future then that's the time I'd play something else.
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Kasriel
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:13:00 -
[62]
first off? No just no if it's a troll good job
second nobody seems to have pointed this out but here's a massive flaw for you you "redistribute" your skillpoints right? so what happens to all those shiny expensive skillbooks you've plugged into your head that you no longer have the requirements for hit remap?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:24:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch This topic is for discussion. I want to hear the pros and cons.
There are no pros ù only things that look like they might be beneficial until you think about it for more than one second and realise they are horribly destructive in every way imaginable. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:24:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:24:32
Originally by: Kasriel first off? No just no if it's a troll good job
second nobody seems to have pointed this out but here's a massive flaw for you you "redistribute" your skillpoints right? so what happens to all those shiny expensive skillbooks you've plugged into your head that you no longer have the requirements for hit remap?
That is easily coded.
Redistribution is not a free-for-all. Limitations would have to be in place so that you could not add skill points to skills you do not yet qualify for as well as removing skill points to areas that would disqualify you for those or other skills...unless you no longer wish to qualify for them.
And yes, you would still need the skill book to even add points to a new skill.
That is why it's not as big a "cheat" as some of you are saying it to be. It can get quite involved.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:29:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:24:32
Originally by: Kasriel first off? No just no if it's a troll good job
second nobody seems to have pointed this out but here's a massive flaw for you you "redistribute" your skillpoints right? so what happens to all those shiny expensive skillbooks you've plugged into your head that you no longer have the requirements for hit remap?
That is easily coded.
Redistribution is not a free-for-all. Limitations would have to be in place so that you could not add skill points to skills you do not yet qualify for as well as removing skill points to areas that would disqualify you for those or other skills...unless you no longer wish to qualify for them.
And yes, you would still need the skill book to even add points to a new skill.
That is why it's not as big a "cheat" as some of you are saying it to be. It can get quite involved.
I would not say it's a cheat as such, but it would make the whole character development and learning skill tree fairly pointless.
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:32:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 17:26:59
Well I'll just keep telling people not to train a single mining skill as they'll most probably regret it the rest of their EVE lives .. such a waste!
Please continue doing this.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:39:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:39:26
Originally by: Katra Novac
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
Made some bad investmentss? Lost a ship in low-sec? No problem...just dig into your real-world wallet and buy some plex to make up for your loss.
I can interpret THAT as not taking reponsibility for your mistakes and even as "cheapening" the game. I can also call it an "exploit" as it gives players with larger expendable incomes an advantage over someone not so afluent. Yet it's considered normal game play.
It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
No, the interesting thing is that you have to pay for your mistakes. Doing it with real money just makes that mistake (and the payment) larger.
It's not about your idea being a "cheat" or not, it's about it fundamentally altering ù to the point of completely removing ù a core design element of the game. You might as well suggest removing highsec And that's beyond the nitty-gritty details of what your suggestion is removing (eg. making attributes completely irrelevant). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:45:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 18:46:11
Originally by: Atticus Fynch It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
Give it up Atticus, you know that the average EVE player/forum poster has the autistic conservative's tendency to hold on whatever he knows, whether it's good, reasonable, logical or not.
You KNOW you're really upsetting them!
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:47:00 -
[70]
Well then, perhaps instead of it being an annual event, make it an event you can do say, every 20 - 25 million skill points.
Once you hit 25 million SP, you get one skillpoint re-adjustment.
Fair?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Well then, perhaps instead of it being an annual event, make it an event you can do say, every 20 - 25 million skill points.
Once you hit 25 million SP, you get one skillpoint re-adjustment.
Fair?
No, because it still ruins the game in exactly the same way. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:53:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tippia it still ruins the game in exactly the same way.
Your game perhaps .. not my game.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:55:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 18:46:11
Originally by: Atticus Fynch It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
Give it up Atticus, you know that the average EVE player/forum poster has the autistic conservative's tendency to hold on whatever he knows, whether it's good, reasonable, logical or not.
You KNOW you're really upsetting them!
duly noted
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 18:58:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Originally by: Tippia it still ruins the game in exactly the same way.
Your game perhaps .. not my game.
Ok, so how about this deal: we effectively remove the skill system and the choices that come with it, and screw over new players something fierce, and in exchange, we effectively remove highsec and the choices that come with it, and screw over new players even moreà
Sounds fair? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:01:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 19:01:55
Originally by: Tippia Ok, so how about this deal: we effectively remove the skill system and the choices that come with it,
I couldn't care less. I always thought that artificial restrictive things like xp or SP are a bit silly and that player skill, tactics and organisation should be far more important.
Quote: and screw over new players something fierce, and in exchange, we effectively remove highsec and the choices that come with it, and screw over new players even moreà
I don't see any reason for this. We're only discussing a one time skill remap. No need to get upset.
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Sofa Raddis
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:06:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Sofa Raddis on 11/06/2011 19:06:31
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
Yes it's relative and matter of perception.
Just think about how this is done, a player buys plex for real world currency and sells it on the ingame market to another player for isk (can now play Eve despite a bad economy). It's not a case of direct real currency for ingame currency, like in other mmos, where it's usually done by a third party, someone gets the playtime, and said profit goes to the actual developers.
I've been on just the same thought as you, but it's not entirely fair reasoning. I think it's a good solution to this issue which every mmo face.
Now, back to the topic, while appealing to the casual players (lowest common denmoninator) by lessening the rules of the game as you go can be a good business model, it makes for horrible gameplay, having goals reset by eventually getting them for less effort is the reason I don't play warcraft anymore.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:06:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling I couldn't care less. I always thought that atrificial restrictive things like xp or SP are a bit silly and that player skill and orgaisation should be far more important.
It's called balance. There's a good reason for it ù it creates roles and variety. It's the thing that makes player skill and (especially) organisation relevant.
Quote: I don't see any reason for this. We're only discussing a one time skill remap. No need to get upset.
You're discussing a fundamental redefinition of a core design element ù one dealing with planning, choice and consequences. If you're going to remove that, we should remove them all: in particular, remove the area of EVE where consequences are the most stringently enforced ù highsec. That also removes the choice of where to go and what kind of gameplay to engage in. And, just like the SP remap idea, it completely screws over new players in favour of older ones.
It is the exact same kind of change, so if there is any need for one, there's the exact same need for the other. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:08:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 11/06/2011 18:39:26
Originally by: Katra Novac
Instead of trying to correct your mistakes by cheapening the game, why don't you just take responsibility for your mistakes.
The interesting thing about EVE is that you can correct for "mistakes" with real-world money.
Made some bad investmentss? Lost a ship in low-sec? No problem...just dig into your real-world wallet and buy some plex to make up for your loss.
I can interpret THAT as not taking reponsibility for your mistakes and even as "cheapening" the game. I can also call it an "exploit" as it gives players with larger expendable incomes an advantage over someone not so afluent. Yet it's considered normal game play.
It's all relative and a matter of perception. Being held to skills I no longer use or studied while trying to find my place in EVE years ago can be looked at the same way IMO.
Buying PLEX if they are new to the game, is likely to cheapen their experience of Eve at the beginning, as the amount they can make by selling a PLEX would be a lot more that what they can make to start with by mining or mission running. However, PLEX is useful for those that have limited time to play, so although they are not ideal they do have a use. Those that have plenty of time should not need to buy PLEX with RL currency.
Would be great in RL if you could unlearn all the things you no longer require and swap what was learnt for new subjects without investing any more time in learning.
Difference is what you propose cheapens the game in general, where as PLEX mainly cheapens the game for those that buy it and that's really only the experience of those that are new to the game.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:09:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 19:09:50
Originally by: Tippia You're discussing a fundamental redefinition of a core design element ù one dealing with planning, choice and consequences. If you're going to remove that, we should remove them all: in particular, remove the area of EVE where consequences are the most stringently enforced ù highsec.
That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences. Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:13:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences.
àexcept that it had been proven at that point that there was no choice and that the consequences for the "wrong" choice was completely lopsided compared to the alternative. It was a Hobson's choice, not an actual choice.
Quote: Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
We're not talking about removing one choice here ù we're talking about removing a whole set of actually relevant choices for no good reason whatsoever. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jennifer Starling That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences.
àexcept that it had been proven at that point that there was no choice and that the consequences for the "wrong" choice was completely lopsided compared to the alternative. It was a Hobson's choice, not an actual choice.
I agree it was a very good idea to remove them.
Quote:
Quote: Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
We're not talking about removing one choice here ù we're talking about removing a whole set of actually relevant choices for no good reason whatsoever.
I don't think giving people a skill remap as the OP proposed and definitely not a one-time redistribution will remove any relevant choice and "ruin the game". You still have to face the consequences for a year (or forver if it's one-time).
Furthermore I think it's a very nice idea to let people try things out first without really knowing what they're doing and not having to pay for it the rest of their EVE lives. Because it's not even a real choice because when you start playing you don't really know what you're choosing, it's opening a door you don't really know what's behind it. I think it shouldn't have to be penalized.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:22:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Katra Novac on 11/06/2011 19:22:59
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 11/06/2011 19:09:50
Originally by: Tippia You're discussing a fundamental redefinition of a core design element ù one dealing with planning, choice and consequences. If you're going to remove that, we should remove them all: in particular, remove the area of EVE where consequences are the most stringently enforced ù highsec.
That's nonsense, they also removed learning skills which also offered a choice with consequences. Removing one doesn't mean it all falls apart, apparently. Or I must have missed something ..
Lol, not the learning skill debate again.
Learning skills offered no real choice as they were required to be learnt for the most part at the beginning. Which is why they were removed as they where not performing as intended.
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Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:28:00 -
[83]
I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
Kinta Huron
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:40:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:41:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
Shhh don't tell him! :x
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Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:45:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
Yes of course, but if this is implemented nobody will buy characters. Why spend ISK on another character when you can just swap all your skills?
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:46:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
That's true, but if you buy a character there it is very unlikely to be the exact setup (skill wise) to what you want. Plus if you buy your character, it's never truly yours in the sense you have not put the time into it and therefore can't really take the credit for it.
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Joey Moonbeam
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:53:00 -
[88]
What if once every year you could remap your last 30 days of skill points?
This would allow a re-do if you mess up badly but wouldn't allow for a complete makeover.
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Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:54:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Originally by: Kinta Huron
Originally by: Sir Oliver Midwestshire I don't like this. For the reasons stated in the second post in this thread (counting the OP).
Can you imagine how overpowered it would be if somebody decided they wanted to take their industrial account and suddenly change it into a level 5 PVP account?
You know that you can buy a character from the Bazaar right?
Yes of course, but if this is implemented nobody will buy characters. Why spend ISK on another character when you can just swap all your skills?
I know some that originally invested a lot into industry skills and no longer use them. So they would have a lot to gain with such a change, of course they don't think of the game in general, they just think about their own situation. They chose to take that route and the should accept that.
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Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.11 19:56:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Joey Moonbeam What if once every year you could remap your last 30 days of skill points?
This would allow a re-do if you mess up badly but wouldn't allow for a complete makeover.
That's a decent compromise, and It won't screw anything over significantly. This fits the original intention of the idea, to swap out skills in case you messed up.
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
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