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Godiever
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 10:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Question:
If you only have 2 Pantheon style fitted carriers, is the approach spider tanking strategy still feasible, or do you need to rely on additional implants etc for the setup to work?
I was wondering if there was a GÇ£critical numberGÇ¥ of carriers required.
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NoNah
Hyper-Nova
16
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Posted - 2011.09.28 11:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Godiever wrote:Question:
If you only have 2 Pantheon style fitted carriers, is the approach spider tanking strategy still feasible, or do you need to rely on additional implants etc for the setup to work?
I was wondering if there was a GÇ£critical numberGÇ¥ of carriers required.
There sort of is, but the term is wildlly used where it doesn't really belong now anyway.
Basically, you won't run a pantheon gang very well without 2 energy transferring carriers, at minimum, which in turns mean you need the remote reps to use up all that cap aswell. I'd say something like 8 carriers is minimum for pantheon to be effective rather than the alternative, and then some space before that where it's annoyingly situational.
Would you find some sort of mutatoin where you rely entirely on high resist and remote reps, but bouncing cap of support ships or going only cap recharge rigs etc I guess you could force the number down, but also the per ship effectiveness. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
51
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Posted - 2011.09.28 11:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Older style Pantheon carriers used dedicated rigs and implant sets to generate their capacitor -- egress port maximizers for cap generation and remote repair augmentors to conserve it. In this style, you'd need at least two energy-fitted carriers to generate the capacitor, and then about 3 repair carriers to use it.
You can drop the egress port maximizers and spread the energy transfers among the armor repping carriers. The result will be less effective, but you could just take two carriers, spider them, and call it a "Pantheon" tank. The result wouldn't be very impressive, however. You might get as much as 7000 EHP/s per carrier repping the target, but triage can outperform that trivially.
The thing is, Pantheon is useful because you can apply the tank of a dozen carriers on the single person getting primaried. If you've only got two people tanking, you'd probably get better results out of staggered triage. I could go into detail, but there's more than enough videos describing that to make it unnecessary. Google is your friend.
If you really want me to, I can work up a fitting for you, but this really needed to be said first.
Edit: It's worth noting that Pantheon carriers have evolved rather significantly since their original incarnation. In their original incarnation, they used local capacitor recharge to supplement the energy spider. They later dropped this and used rigs to generate and conserve capacitor. More recently, they've had to transition to trimarks in order to get enough buffer. At this point, remote capacitor gains come entirely from capital energy emissions 5. Per-carrier tank is lower, but it lets them get enough buffer to survive bomber waves. Sometimes.
The upshot is that you no longer have a dedicated energy spider, and any carrier can refit to give either more repair or more capacitor on the fly. This makes them less specialized and therefore less efficient -- but the redundancy makes them more robust, too. |
Godiever
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 12:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Firstly, thank you for that information, never knew how they had evolved over time. Interresting.
Secondly, set me set the scene:
Smallish alliance gets caught with their pants down, a super has been naughty and been ratting and has now got caught by a roaming gang in a cyno-jammed system. The bad guys rapidly bring in subcaps (GÇ£welp fleetGÇ¥ etc) to kill the super.
Now alliance members want to help, but a regular carrier will just get neuted and/or dps killed rapidly. A triage carrier might last slightly longer, but will go the same way fairly quickly.
Thus, the question is if they could muster 2-3 carriers with a Pantheon style fit, could they not all survive a lot longer?
The fit I was thinking of was something like this. ________________________________________
[Archon, Pantheon]
Capital Energy Transfer Array I Capital Energy Transfer Array I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Damage Control II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Large Egress Port Maximizer II Large Egress Port Maximizer I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I ________________________________________
Would this work? |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
51
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Posted - 2011.09.28 14:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's basically the fit that I had tested out earlier. Three RR's per carrier with lowslots full of hardeners. As I said, You'll get about 7k EHP/s per carrier.
Just FYI, you'll get better capacitor life if you just use three remote repair augmentors. Cheaper too. Take a look at mindflood drugs, while you're at it -- none of the penalties affect pantheon carriers. |
beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate Mad Scientists
17
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Posted - 2011.09.28 15:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Five is usually needed to make it work at a minimum, couple of energy and a few repair carriers. The problem with a small number is that Pantheon carriers is ECM. You need the larger numbers to combat a carrier getting jammed and breaking link. Probably better sticking to Triage and getting efficient with that, until you have the numbers to really make Pantheon work. |
Andy Landen
Cryptonym Sleepers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.29 03:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
As with any spider tank set-up, three is the minimum to see strong spider benefit. Ideal spider fleet has 5 or more ships with as much RR as possible plus strong resists and ECCM. 1 DC2, 3 EANM, and everything else for cap. You can fully power 5 cap RR. if one carrier is neuted or jammed, a fleet of 5 or more will get along fine until the offender is crushed. Supers change only the dps of the equation, so a group of 5-6 smart bombing BS is probably the best answer to those in killing off the fighter bombers (and/or fighters) and protecting the carrier's tank. That's what I hear anyway. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
54
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Posted - 2011.09.29 08:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:1 DC2, 3 EANM, and everything else for cap.
No way. Not even remotely. A pantheon spider uses all the low slots for hardeners. DC2, rainbow hardeners, two EANMs. Capacitor is generated remotely, not locally. If you need extra capacitor, you can use egress port maximizers and remote repair augmentors, but sacrificing the low slots is not an option. |
Mem Moriaty
Katzbalger Industries
0
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Posted - 2011.09.29 11:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
When you're talking about 3 carriers you're better of using 3 triage in staggered cycles. Pantheon is a setup for situations where triage can't tank the incoming dps anymore and where scaling up the numbers of carriers as triage setup is not working that well. If you bring in mixed support the synergy with a triage is probably better anyway since pantheon setups require a lot of effort to setup with support (longer locktimes, less targets locked etc).
Also if you're specificly talking about welpfleets your small carrier group, regardless of the fits and setups, will probably die to cap pressure of 100s of canes running dual med neuts. Best you can do in such a situation is probably suicide some triage to allow the scap to logoff.
The really best thing you can really do however is just kick the idiot ratting in a super. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
21
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Posted - 2011.09.29 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
You'd be much better off bouncing the 2 carriers between triage than having them both in a pantheon style fit.
2 pantheons are at massive risk of neuting. Shoot the primary neut the secondary and you have instantly dropped to 0 rep. I know the same is sort of true for a triage pair but at least they have local tanks and generate a lot more cap, they also use the cap more efficiently.
Swap between the 2 fits as required, but try and keep it subtle as to which is in triage. For example if they carriers are in different corps and one has fighters out the enemy will easily see which is in triage and kill it if you aren't quick enough.
Primary carrier
Pantheon lows (4X hard, DC, 2 X EANM) Triage fit
Secondary carrier
Full triage, with a tonne of cap regeneration
Triage lows (2 X CAR, 1-2 EANM, DC, CPRs) Triage fit
The risk of this is of course one being bounced out of refit range, or them discovering which of the pair is in triage early in the cycle when the might be able to kill it before the 2 swap roles.
For carrier groups I'd suggest doing something like, of course this is just a guideline but it seems about the right scales.
1 Carrier - Triage fit
2-3 Carriers - Triage-swapping fits
3-5 Carriers - Single fit 'pantheon' (3 CRAR + 2 CETA)
6+ Carriers - True pantheon (dedicated cap/armour carriers) |
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Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
54
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Posted - 2011.09.29 12:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
That seems pretty rational. I personally think 3 is too few to really do a proper pantheon even with a single fit, but you could make an argument either way.
You might want to add trimark pantheon to that list -- at a certain point, incoming alpha damage becomes high enough that you need the extra buffer and you can't afford to use those cap and armor rigs anymore. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
22
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Posted - 2011.09.29 16:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:That seems pretty rational. I personally think 3 is too few to really do a proper pantheon even with a single fit, but you could make an argument either way.
You might want to add trimark pantheon to that list -- at a certain point, incoming alpha damage becomes high enough that you need the extra buffer and you can't afford to use those cap and armor rigs anymore.
I was considering adding that on the bottom for like 15-20+ or something but in today's eve the sad truth is they are really ineffective at that scale its all about supers and FB alpha is too great for any sub-super, if they prime something its unlikely the trimarks would make much difference.
Maybe after the winter fixes carriers will be more viable in larger groups. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
54
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Posted - 2011.09.29 16:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Here's hoping! |
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