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Sobek Thoth
Minmatar Choking Goat Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.12 23:47:00 -
[1]
THIS IS A VALID POINT:
I have been in-game for almost 7yrs. I come to Eve to unplug and zone out and get away from people, I do not come here to 'mingle'. If I wanted to mingle, I'd stay at work or go to a bar.
When I run a mission, it's MINE, is it not? I am referring to the loosely phrased, "High Security Space".
NPC's were removed from the gates in "High Sec" space some years ago because of the ludicrous notion that gate-rats could exist in "High Security" where Concord supposedly rules the roost. I was all for this because it seemed foolish. As for running a mission in "High Sec", now we not only contend with the NPC's trying to kill us, but now with pirates invading and looting our mission. I have enough excitement in my own life, I do not need for you to create it for me.
First there was "Ore Looting": Instead of making use of Concord, CCP took the route of "kill rights"? Now, IRL, I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy. But this is a game, a game where running a mission, salvaging a wreck and selling the loot OR mining ore, refining it, building ships/modules is a source of INCOME for a LOT of us and we CHOOSE to do it in "High Sec" so we won't be bothered. Some may say that seems boring, but for some of us, we're willing to pay $15 a month for it because that is what we WANT. Bending to a few that wanted the opportunity to fight, but not go to 0.0 or be at war, "kill rights" was invented. I saw this as a bad idea and a further degeneration of what "High Sec" space is at it's core.
Thieving should be strongly encouraged to stay out of "High Sec" space.
New Players: I have seen multiple people come in on a trial account. I endeavor to be an ambassador for Eve and help them with questions and even give them a decent frigate once in a while from my Industry Alt (from one of my THREE accounts). It was done for me when I joined up, so I am passing along the good intentions. BUT, after the trial is over, I've seen far too many of these people leave and NOT stay. A HUGE factor is them trying to build up isk and having their mission loot or mining ore stolen. Do we want a challenge? Sure, we're human. Do we want our GAME to become WORK? Not remotely. Some of us prefer to be 'less challenged' than others.
If I wanted to deal with that garbage, I would move BACK out to 0.0 I don't know if you are trying to "force" something onto mission runners or what, but if the line between "Low Sec" and "High Sec" is going to be allowed to be blurred, why have a difference?
Having the two different types of space is a fantastic idea for garnering a wider range of players/income. But if some of the annoyance of "Low Sec" is going to be allowed to spill over into "High Sec", you will lose players.
In-Game Technology: If the technology exists to have multiple cameras follow your ship in space so you can see, if it exists to have implants put into your BRAIN to make you smarter or more agile, the technology certainly exists to put an alarm on cans to alert Concord of unauthorized access to something that is not yours. It's called LowJack and it exists in THIS world, so to not have it in Eve is a serious lack of foresight.
I don't think we'll be able to steal ships/ore/modules from other players inside a station once we're walking around in them, so why is Concord left to be so ineffective in "High Sec" space?
Set alarms on cans/wrecks, Lock the mission to only the player and/or fleet members, I don't care what you do, but I want to run my mission in my own way........ALONE and UNHINDERED.
In closing, for the players who will read this and shout to the heavens, "stop whining!" or "Go play X3 or Star Trek then!". CCP, these ARE options.
Obviously this post is not for the likes of those people as THEY are happy with their lawlessness, but rather the exceptionally large amount of players that enjoy "High Sec" for the same reasons I used to, to relax and unplug.
Graphics does not a game make, CCP.
[orange]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Shufo (mods@cc |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.06.13 00:00:00 -
[2]
Concord is there to support bit vets exploiting game mechanics and gank new players for them. The same using market bots, mining bots, mission bots, grieffing everything in their path, shooting blues, shooting guys in their own corp, scaming, stealing corps assets etc. and oc: "It's a game, c'mon."
But yes call "High sec space" where all this is possible is the first and biggest scam all new player deals with and for most of them, that makes them go away and leave grieffers with the well know rage "gime ya stuff" "kkthxbye".
Then you start seeing threads pop here and there because scum got ass kicked by bigger scum *whaaa lost my e-peen capital moon*
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 00:07:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Sobek Thoth When I run a mission, it's MINE, is it not?
No. It's just a place in space where you've been tasked to do certain things. It's not your patch of space, and anyone and everyone is allowed to fly there.
Quote: As for running a mission in "High Sec", now we not only contend with the NPC's trying to kill us, but now with pirates invading and looting our mission.
Yes. Welcome to EVE.
Quote: we CHOOSE to do it in "High Sec" so we won't be bothered.
Then you choose it for the wrong reason. High sec is not a place where you can lock yourself off from the rest of the universe ù it's just a place where aggression comes at a cost.
Quote: Thieving should be strongly encouraged to stay out of "High Sec" space.
Why? You're given plenty of opportunity and ability to dissuade the thieves ù if it was anything like lowsec, you wouldn't have that opportunity ù you'd just get blown up.
Quote: I don't know if you are trying to "force" something onto mission runners or what, but if the line between "Low Sec" and "High Sec" is going to be allowed to be blurred, why have a difference?
Because that difference causes different behaviour ù the fact that aggression comes at a cost means that people behave differently in highsec.
Quote: the technology certainly exists to put an alarm on cans to alert Concord of unauthorized access to something that is not yours.
àexcept that theft is not CONCORD's business.
Quote: Set alarms on cans/wrecks, Lock the mission to only the player and/or fleet members, I don't care what you do, but I want to run my mission in my own way........ALONE and UNHINDERED.
You're playing the wrong game ù alone and unhindered is not something EVE supports. You'd think that after 7 years, you'd know this. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Sir Oliver Midwestshire
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.13 00:08:00 -
[4]
Solution: Go to less popular mission sites.
Problem solved.
...Oh and I'm the guy who founded the city between Eastshire and Westshire. Nobody visits it though. |
Sobek Thoth
Minmatar Choking Goat Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.13 01:22:00 -
[5]
Swynet, grammar girl!..lol I do understand your point though, the covert actions, spying, etc. But it doesn't apply to the effort/isk one puts into working up to a high level agent and the effort/isk one puts into clearing a mission. AGAIN, if we wanted to deal with that, we'd move back to Fountain space (wow, showing my age).
Tippia, you TOTALLY missed the point. Get a few more years under your belt, stop being a drone and then come back. I believe Eve is more complex than you give it credit for and YOU may be playing the wrong game. Simple Example: When a miner's ore is stolen or his indy destroyed, that only raises the price of the ships he builds for YOU. Years ago (before you were in-game), my alt was getting $400 mil for Machariels, now they go for 8. That is just a minor, miniscule example, but for cause, there's effect. You'd think that after 3.5 years, you'd know this.
Sir Oliver, that IS a valid and exceptional option, and sadly, one that I and others are being forced to do now. But for many, it's not so much 'Problem Solved', as it is 'Problem Tolerated', but thank you for your input/ideas.
Anyway, this was on behalf of a few. After petition, I was directed here by a GM to post this opinion. It wasn't posted for any player benefit but in hopes it would be brought to the attention of a Developer.
I'm not coming back here to educate. This is just for CCP, who will know what aspect I'm pointing out.
God I miss Anaconda Mines...
[orange]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Shufo (mods@cc |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 01:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sobek Thoth Tippia, you TOTALLY missed the point.
So what was your point? That you don't want to play an MMO where your actions affect others and their actions affect you? So play another game, because EVE cannot function without that interaction.
Quote: I believe Eve is more complex than you give it credit for
Not really, no. It's far more complex than you've managed to figure out over the years, though. At least that's the only explanation I can think of why you haven't even understood those simple facts about highsec, for instanceà
Quote: Simple Example: When a miner's ore is stolen or his indy destroyed, that only raises the price of the ships he builds for YOU.
Yes? If anything, this is a good thing. But more importantly, what is it an example of?
Quote: Years ago (before you were in-game), my alt was getting $400 mil for Machariels, now they go for 8.
Ah, so you're an RMTerà an overpriced RMTer at that. But again, what is this an example of?
Are those supposed to be examples of complexity? Well, I'm sorry, they're not. They're just examples of supply and demand ù the simplest of market forces. And what do they have to do with your point? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:20:00 -
[7]
I tend to agree with the OP. More improvements to aggression mechanics are needed, Thieves, criminals and vagabonds should be punished, and highsec should be a place for good guys that pwn bad guys who come there. You scam, you thieve, you gank for fun and lawls, you belong in lowsec. I should be able to make a point of enforcing that, along with other players. If you have -2 or worse security status, Concord may not show up, but I will under their authority.
I will not recieve a negative security status hit, I will not get shot by gate guns, I will not get shot by station guns, and I will not get criminally flagged or blown up by Concord. You will not get Kill Rights. You are a criminal and should be treated as such. This is our game to, and you came to High Security space. Our space, because we are High Security, law abiding citizens of New Eden. We can and will hunt you down, even in Lowsec and Nullsec, where we will be just as within our rights to do so. The difference being, that is your home and there you have advantages. Lowsec is but the border zone between the two.
Thieves will get negative security status when they steal, and I'm sure we could ut in a scammer reporting feature that takes a picture of the last message by the indivdual, and results in a contestable security status hit. Only contestable should it be fake of course, where the offender will recieve twice the penalty in return or be set back to 0 if they have any + status at all.
Every crime will put a 72 hour timer on the indivdual person perpetrating it, where they cannot gain security status from ratting or other means, and any gank by a high security status player will set their security status to zero, coupled with this penalty to prevent exploitation.
I will live in an iron state, and you will be my prisoners!
disclaimer: Please ignore any comments by obvious gankers and griefers in this thread, as their opinions are counter-productive and set forth in their own preferred interests.
I'm serious btw
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sobek Thoth
I have seen multiple people come in on a trial account. I endeavor to be an ambassador for Eve and help them with questions and even give them a decent frigate once in a while from my Industry Alt (from one of my THREE accounts).
Stop being such a terrible ambassador. You are almost certainly answering the questions in such a way that gives them a false sense of what the game is about. Eve is an almost exclusively PVP game - and if they aren't mentally prepared for that, they'll quit. Your duty as a veteran player is to tell them that they can be PVP'ed anytime, anywhere. And then you should go on to tell them that PVP comes in many forms - from asploding their ship to competing with them on the market to stealing their loot/ore. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tippia on 13/06/2011 02:36:29
Originally by: Mars Theran Thieves, criminals and vagabonds should be punished, and highsec should be a place for good guys that pwn bad guys who come there.
So punish them. If life is too easy for these people, it's because you make it too easy. This is not a flaw in the game ù it's a flaw in the character of the average highsec dweller who falsely believe that "highsec" means "safe sec" and that the game will (or should) protect them.
Quote: You scam, you thieve, you gank for fun and lawls, you belong in lowsec.
No, that's not what the sec levels are for. The difference between highsec and lowsec is very simple: in highsec, aggression comes at a cost. That is all. You can pay with ISK through a wardec, or with your ship, but that is the only distinction.
What you're asking for already exists, and no-one is taking advantage of it. Giving people more of that will not make them enforce it more, so that's doesn't solve anything (assuming anything actually needs solving).
Quote: Our space
Again, no, it's not yours, by very definition. If you want to make it your space, where you can hunt down those who do you wrong according to your perceived sense of right and wrong, there is a place for that: it's called nullsec. Go out and do it and create your iron state. As long as you sit in someone else's space, you abide by their laws. These laws tell you to take car of your own grievances when it comes to theft. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:34:00 -
[10]
Quote: Thieves will get negative security status when they steal
Only if mission wrecks no longer belong to the mission runner but to the rat that got killed.
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 04:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mars Theran on 13/06/2011 04:34:58
Originally by: Tippia *snip*
What part of enabling game mechanics to allow Highsec players with good security status to kill Criminal security status characters anytime and anywhere they want do you not understand. I am not an NPC.
The reason why we can't shoot them is because the game mechanics prevent it, so long as they do not have a GCC. Pirates, griefers and gankers use the game mechanics to avoid situations where they are at threat from other players. That means the mechanics currently work in their favor.
Actually, that is exactly what security levels are there for. They just don't work as intended. -2.0 player is not allowed in 1.0 space.
Lowsec is intended to be a haven for Criminals, and Highsec is intended to be relatively safe for Non-criminals. Highsec is in fact perfectly safe for criminals, and only partially safe for non-criminals. All that is needed is a bit of ratting, and the criminal flies straight on through no problems. The game mechanics allow them to control when they PvP, and when they do whatever else they want, while giving them complete free run over Lowsec and Null, minus other players doing the same thing getting them.
I don't really expect you with your inane responses to understand this, but the mechanics would serve better if Criminals had a playerbase counter that did not include other pirates in lowsec. High security status players should be able to gank criminals in Highsec. You want to play that game, then you sshould suffer the repercussions of your actions, rather than being protected by station games and agression mechanics.
I also think it would be a relatively good idea to remove ratting bonuses to security status from Nullsec, or at least reduce them a bit.
I've had enough of playing a game where griefers have every right to do whatever they want anywhere, and the only way to fight them is to join them. I don't want to be indistinguishable from a pirate and ganker. I also don't want to for a fleet and have my allies start doing the same thing the guys we're fighting are doing.
I want Black and White.
..and maybe a little grey.
edit: the game is seriously unbalanced in favour of griefing and piracy; what I propose would change this and balance it out into zones. Criminals, (you really don't seem to get the concept of thieving murderer here), would be counterable in Highsec as if every high security status player had a Wardec against them at all times. High Security status players are already fair game in every other area of space, so that's fair.
Maybe later we could see the inclusion of additional levels of influence on both parts, once all the players have ironed out their allegiances.
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 04:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Quote: Thieves will get negative security status when they steal
Only if mission wrecks no longer belong to the mission runner but to the rat that got killed.
Mission wrecks should belong to the player that destroyed them, until he or she chooses to give them up. It's already possible to take the greatest reward, by simply salvaging the wrecks and leaving the often useless contents alone. I would propose an unclaimed timer on the wrecks however, where they turned blue if more than 10 minutes had passed.
The only problem that remains is dealing with can flippers that get aggression, get shot and run to grab their friends. That I would deal with very simply: When they steal and get flagged for aggression, they automatically lose the ability to transfer aggression on them to fleet or Corp allies. They are alone in this. That doesn't mean they can't go jump in a Claymore and come back to gank the offending party. No killrights if they get ganked though, as long as they're flagged.
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Arctic Thunder
Choking Goat Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.13 04:44:00 -
[13]
I can see that some people here, or a single person for that matter, are/is trying to make it seem like EVE is about being an outlaw, and that under no circumstances should that be disallowed. Don't worry, I won't name any names, It's all too obvious.
That or they like to argue other people's points.
Anyway, onto the Real topic here. Mission thieving has become an increasing problem and it seems like the thieves get nothing more than a slap on the wrist when it happens. Sure, blow up their little salvage/ninja ship with your mission fit ship, then they come back in in their PvP fit ship and kill your hard earned mission runner. It sets you back a ton of ISK to get a new mission boat. Yes, I fully understand losing a ship is part of the game, but losing it in a way that is complete bogus like that is unimaginatively annoying.
Now.. Say they don't steal your loot, but salvage Your wrecks. In my mind, salvaging a wreck that belongs to another player should fall under the same principal as Stealing from that player. Thus can be met with by lethal force... of course, That would lead back to what I previously said about various ships popping here and there.
What is the way to fix this? Simple. Include a gate at the start of Each mission area, and have that gate Locked to that person and his/her fleet. Maybe only do this in High Sec, let the Low Sec people continue to have their fun with PvP, as that's what Low Sec is more oriented towards.
There doesn't need to be some righteous calling to kill all the high sec pirates, just make it so they go pirate in the Proper places. Low Sec. I'm pretty sure they pirate high sec for one simple, perhaps pathetic, reason; They are not good enough to hang with the low sec baddies
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Kharylien
Gallente Masked Rider Project
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Posted - 2011.06.13 04:44:00 -
[14]
Posting with my main here, to make a couple of specific points about my reply you can check by looking at my profile.
1) I am not a pirate. (Check out my 5.0 security status, yo.) 2) I am a mission-runner. (Check out my ridiculously high standings with the Gallente, Minmatar, and certain corporations.) 3) I'm basically a total carebear. (Check out my total lack of kills, anywhere.)
And yet I say:
I disagree with your post.
Yeah, it can be annoying when people come into your mission. There are ways to deal with that, though - don't mission in high-traffic systems, clean up your trash so you don't have dozens and dozens of wrecks lying around, if someone *does* come into your mission, react appropriately.
Appropriately means: In a way that gets them nothing. Warp out so they'll get aggro on the NPCs, if you can. If you've been clearing up your wrecks as you go and can survive it okay, stop fighting anything and let them realise that you're not going to kill things for them.
I've chatted with ninja looter types who've gone so far as to filter me out of their future scans, because we established that I would always be a waste of their time.
If you want to play in a way that lets no-one interact with you in any way, play a single-player game, not an MMO.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.13 04:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mars Theran What part of enabling game mechanics to allow Highsec players with good security status to kill Criminal security status characters anytime and anywhere they want do you not understand.
You already can.
Quote:
The reason why we can't shoot them is because the game mechanics prevent it, so long as they do not have a GCC. Pirates, griefers and gankers use the game mechanics to avoid situations where they are at threat from other players. That means the mechanics currently work in their favor.
I would argue that carebears use the game mechanics to avoid situations where they are at threat from other players. That means the mechanics currently work in their favor.
Quote: Actually, that is exactly what security levels are there for. They just don't work as intended. -2.0 player is not allowed in 1.0 space.
That's actually not true. I frequently enter 1.0 space and I'm hovering around -9.5
Quote: Lowsec is intended to be a haven for Criminals, and Highsec is intended to be relatively safe for Non-criminals. Highsec is in fact perfectly safe for criminals, and only partially safe for non-criminals. All that is needed is a bit of ratting, and the criminal flies straight on through no problems. The game mechanics allow them to control when they PvP, and when they do whatever else they want, while giving them complete free run over Lowsec and Null, minus other players doing the same thing getting them.
Every region of Eve - high, low, or null - is for PVP. Its just a matter of what kind of PVP it caters to.
/shrug
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 04:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mars Theran What part of enabling game mechanics to allow Highsec players with good security status to kill Criminal security status characters anytime and anywhere they want do you not understand. I am not an NPC.
So stop living in NPC space. While you live there, you have to abide by their rules. Want to have your rules, then you have to get your own space. What you want already exists in the game ù you just don't actually want to make use of it.
Quote: The reason why we can't shoot them is because the game mechanics prevent it, so long as they do not have a GCC.
Actually, if someone has criminal security status, you're free to engage them at any time. Again, what you want is already in the game.
Quote: Actually, that is exactly what security levels are there for.
The game (and, indeed, CCP) says otherwise.
Quote: Lowsec is intended to be a haven for Criminals, and Highsec is intended to be relatively safe for Non-criminals.
Lowsec is intended for people who want to be able to shoot others without particularly harsh repercussions; highsec is intended for people who want aggression to cost. Highsec is most certainly not intended to be safe, and it is not intended to be free of criminals.
Quote: Highsec is in fact perfectly safe for criminals, and only partially safe for non-criminals.
If it's perfectly safe for criminals, it is just as safe for non-criminals. If it's only partially safe for non-criminals, it is only partially safe for criminals as well. And that's if we completely ignore the increased risks that exist for criminals at the hands ofà wellà everyone else ù if those are not being enforced, it's the fault of the players who are meant to enforce it, not with the game.
Quote: I don't really expect you with your inane responses to understand this
And I couldn't give a flying **** what you expect when those expectations have exactly zero connection to reality, and when you feel the need to insult me just because you have no clue about how the game works. If you want to do it that way, then fine ù let's.
Learn the game and STFU. How's that for a suggestion? If you can't, then stop playing because this game is not for you and should absolutely not be adjusted in any way to cater to your needs.
Quote: I want Black and White.
Then you don't want EVE. Can I have your stuff when you leave?
Quote: ..and maybe a little grey.
EVE does not support "a little grey". It's a grey-vs-black environment. White does not exist. The game does not support it. It was never meant to support it ù it quite literally would cease to function properly if there was any white mixed in. If you don't like that, go play some other game that suits your play style.
Quote: the game is seriously unbalanced in favour of griefing and piracy
No, it's not. It's unbalanced against idiots, weaklings, cowards, and other worthless people who refuse to take any kind of responsibility for their own actions and safety and who want the game to protect them from themselves. This is a very very good thing. There should be no balance for these useless persons ù they are a plague on this game and need to be kicked out if they lack the cognitive ability to figure out for themselves that this is not the game for them. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:01:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tippia on 13/06/2011 05:01:49
Originally by: Arctic Thunder Mission thieving has become an increasing problem and it seems like the thieves get nothing more than a slap on the wrist when it happens.
How is it a problem?
Quote: Sure, blow up their little salvage/ninja ship with your mission fit ship, then they come back in in their PvP fit ship and kill your hard earned mission runner.
If you're not prepared to defend your stuff, then that's your problem, not a problem with the game.
Quote: Now.. Say they don't steal your loot, but salvage Your wrecks.
Impossible. The wrecks aren't yours, so there is never a situation when anyone can "salvage your wrecks".
Quote: In my mind, salvaging a wreck that belongs to another player should fall under the same principal as Stealing from that player.
Maybe it should. Unfortunately, since wrecks don't belong to anyone, that would be a completely hypothetical situation, so why bother implementing rules for a situation that will never actually happen?
Quote: What is the way to fix this?
Fix what?
Quote: Simple. Include a gate at the start of Each mission area, and have that gate Locked to that person and his/her fleet.
Worst idea ever. Do you have any idea how many issues this would create and how it would ruin the game? And for what? Something that isn't even a problem. You are asking for completely safe pockets of space in a game where the whole idea is that there cannot be any safe pockets of space.
Quote: Maybe only do this in High Sec
No. Highsec is not safe.
Quote: There doesn't need to be some righteous calling to kill all the high sec pirates, just make it so they go pirate in the Proper places. Low Sec.
Just one problem: if highsec is where the mark is, than that's the proper space for the pirates to be. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:12:00 -
[18]
People still believe EvE is a single player game with instant messaging built in?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Sir Substance
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sobek Thoth THIS IS A VALID POINT:
I have been in-game for almost 7yrs. I come to Eve to unplug and zone out and get away from people, I do not come here to 'mingle'. If I wanted to mingle, I'd stay at work or go to a bar.
When I run a mission, it's MINE, is it not?
If you don't want to "mingle", you probably shouldn't be playing a massively multiplayer online game. Go play solitare and quit your *****ing, and no, its not yours. This isn't guild wars, where you get your own instance of the world every time you leave town. Every square inch of space outside the docking bay is communal territory. Get over yourself.
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Valdik Wolfgang
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 13/06/2011 05:01:49 How is it a problem?
If it was not a problem, people would not be complaining about it.
Quote: If you're not prepared to defend your stuff, then that's your problem, not a problem with the game.
Honestly, I should not Need to defend myself in High Sec, or in a MISSION for that matter, at least not from other Players.
Quote: Impossible. The wrecks aren't yours, so there is never a situation when anyone can "salvage your wrecks".
Then the wrecks need to be changed so they belong to the person/fleet/corp that destroyed that ship, just as the cargo within it already is.
Quote: Maybe it should. Unfortunately, since wrecks don't belong to anyone, that would be a completely hypothetical situation, so why bother implementing rules for a situation that will never actually happen?
Who says it will never happen? CCP Changes the game quite often, or have you not been playing at all?
Quote: Fix what?
The problem that you can not seem to comprehend with your meager mind.
Quote: Worst idea ever. Do you have any idea how many issues this would create and how it would ruin the game? And for what? Something that isn't even a problem. You are asking for completely safe pockets of space in a game where the whole idea is that there cannot be any safe pockets of space.
How would it create issues? Most missions have a starting gate anyway, not hard to edit them a bit. It is a problem, again you do not understand. No, the pockets are not safe, they are filled with whatever mission objectives you have to accomplish, along with all of those obstacles.
Quote: No. Highsec is not safe.
Then that defeats the purpose of HIGH SECURITY.
Quote: Just one problem: if highsec is where the mark is, than that's the proper space for the pirates to be.
the Proper space for pirates to be is Low Sec, as that is where they can pretty much get away with their outlaw tactics. Look at the map, most of the space is low sec, go have fun.
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Digital Messiah
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:32:00 -
[21]
Working as intended
Quote: Don't Panic
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Valdik Wolfgang Honestly, I should not Need to defend myself in High Sec, or in a MISSION for that matter, at least not from other Players.
CCP has made enormous efforts to dispel this myth, yet still people like the OP persist in misguiding people when they join the game. High sec is safer, not safe. Concord provides consequences, not protection. All space is meant to be PVP'ed in, and CCP isn't going to start instancing space for you to mission in, because that isn't the kind of game that they want.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tippia on 13/06/2011 05:51:22
Originally by: Valdik Wolfgang If it was not a problem, people would not be complaining about it.
So how is it a problem?
Quote: Honestly, I should not Need to defend myself in High Sec, or in a MISSION for that matter, at least not from other Players.
Of course you should. It's only high sec, not absolute sec.
Quote: Then the wrecks need to be changed so they belong to the person/fleet/corp that destroyed that ship, just as the cargo within it already is.
No they don't, because then missions would have to be altered so that they didn't give any LP or so that no mission rats ever had any bounties.
Quote: Who says it will never happen?
The game mechanics.
Quote: The problem that you can not seem to comprehend with your meager mind.
So what's the problem? You can explain what the problem is, right, or are you too stupid? Or is it that you're just a lying little git who makes claims you can't back up with even the slightest little smidgen of facts? Please prove that you are neither stupid nor a git by explaining what this supposed problem actually consists of.
Quote: How would it create issues?
It would create impenetrable sections of space where whole fleets could hide out and not be touched.
Quote: Most missions have a starting gate anyway, not hard to edit them a bit.
It's not that it's hard ù it's that it's harmful.
Quote: It is a problem
What is?
Quote: No, the pockets are not safe, they are filled with whatever mission objectives you have to accomplish, along with all of those obstacles.
If missions are dangerous, then you're doing them wrong. So yes, the pockets are indeed 100% safe.
Quote: Then that defeats the purpose of HIGH SECURITY.
No it does not. It is only high security, not absolute security. The purpose of highsec is that aggression comes at a cost. The hope is that this cost will provide a general disincentive to pointless attacks. It does, and thus a zone with a relatively higher level of security is created.
Quote: the Proper space for pirates to be is
àquite obviously where there are plenty of ships to pirate. I.e. in highsec space. All they have to do is be willing to pay the price, and they do have to because there's no escaping those costs since that inevitability is the entire point of highsec. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 06:13:00 -
[24]
Well, there's obviously no compromise with this one. Quite the opposite in fact; yet another individual that believes their playstyle and supporting mechanics are the only ones that should exist. Be a pirate or be a carebear; there is no in between.
Right.. and I insulted you. That makes you rather petty actually, and I'm fairly certain I didn't say a damn thing that was intended to insult you directly. Not.one.word.
Anyway.. I really don't give a **** about your opinion Tippia, as biased as it is. You certainly seem to share it, welcome or not, but that is what these forums are here for. It's unfortunate you abuse that right as much as you do, with all your plain text griefing, name calling, and discharging of verbal abuse. You can take that as an insult if you wish; it is the first I've offered you.
Bottom line, your opinion is skewed. You don't see that other players should have the right to enjoy this game as much as you do.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 06:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mars Theran yet another individual that believes their playstyle and supporting mechanics are the only ones that should exist. Be a pirate or be a carebear; there is no in between.
Of course there's no in-between ù that would be silly. The same rules should apply to everyone. And seeing as how no proper reason for changing the mechanics has brought up, I'll keep believing that it is indeed the only one that should exist. And no, your dreams for how you think it works is not a reason for changing reality to align with that fantasy ù you need to explain why that change should happen.
Quote: Right.. and I insulted you. That makes you rather petty actually,
No, it makes you lacking in arguments.
Quote: You don't see that other players should have the right to enjoy this game as much as you do.
They should enjoy a game as much as I do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they must enjoy this game, in particular if this game does not cater to the kind of gameplay they're after. Now, if you want to change the game, you need to present a coherent argument for that change, including arguing why it will not go against the fundamental design philosophy of the game and explaining how it will not ruin anyone else's gameplay.
Can you do that? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.13 06:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Valdik Wolfgang
Quote: Impossible. The wrecks aren't yours, so there is never a situation when anyone can "salvage your wrecks".
Then the wrecks need to be changed so they belong to the person/fleet/corp that destroyed that ship, just as the cargo within it already is.
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Aredeth
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Posted - 2011.06.13 07:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Aredeth on 13/06/2011 07:52:39 Edited by: Aredeth on 13/06/2011 07:50:12 Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
why should ninja salvager's be immune? its my mission my loot my salvage if some tard wants to come into my mission and take my salvage then give me the option of shooting them! allowing them to take what they want from me and giving them concord backing is not right. where is the risk/reward system there? if they enter my deadspace mission area i should be allowed to open fire not just sit there and watch them take a third of my hard work and have no option to stop them
EDIT: to clarify i am not asking for them to br concorded just allow me to deal with thieves in my mission deadspace pocket
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:05:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Tippia on 13/06/2011 08:06:44
Originally by: Aredeth why should ninja salvager's be immune?
They're not immune. They have to face the same competition as everyone else.
Quote: its my mission my loot my salvage
Wrong. It's your mission and your loot ù you actually have to earn the salvage.
Quote: if some tard wants to come into my mission and take my salvage then give me the option of shooting them!
If they take your salvage, you already have the option of shooting them. Of course, at that point, chances are you will no longer have anything to shoot them with, unless you've been very carelessà
Quote: allowing them to take what they want from me and giving them concord backing is not right.
If they take from you, then CONCORD gives you free hands to punish the miscreant.
Quote: where is the risk/reward system there?
You mean aside from the fact that you already get the full rewards for the complete lack of risks you face? Or do you mean the risks the salvagers face for their rewards ù risks that are exactly the same for them as they are for you? The risks and rewards are there and plain as day.
Quote: if they enter my deadspace mission area
It's not your mission area ù it's just a patch of space, and everyone can go everywhere in this game.
Quote: i should be allowed to open fire not just sit there and watch them take a third of my hard work and have no option to stop them
If they take any of the things you've worked for, you're already allowed to shoot them. What you're missing here is that you haven't earned the salvage yet ù to do that, you actually have to scoot over to the wreck and salvage it. Before that, it's not yours. End of story.
Quote: just allow me to deal with thieves in my mission deadspace pocket
And let's be clear: you already can. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Aredeth
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:18:00 -
[29]
so explain to me where the risk is for ninja salvages and how i can shoot them as you say i can
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aredeth so explain to me where the risk is for ninja salvages
The risk is exactly the same as for you: the other guy might get to the wreck first, making all the effort to get to that wreck a waste of time. And seeing as how the ninjas have to work harder to get to those wrecks than the mission runner, they actually run a higher risk.
Quote: and how i can shoot them as you say i can
Once you've made the salvage yours, there's only two ways anyone can steal it: by blowing your ship up, thus giving you kill rights or just a normal GCC response, after which they'll take it from your wreck, which gives them standard theft aggression; or by taking it from the jetcan you foolishly dumped that salvage into, which gives them standard theft aggression.
Either way, once they've stolen your salvage, you can blow them out of the sky without second thought. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Aredeth
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:26:00 -
[31]
you still havent explained there the risk is how i can shoot them
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:31:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Aredeth you still havent explained there the risk is how i can shoot them
What?
I've explained where the risk is: you might lose against the competition. I've explained how you can shoot them: because you always can after the kinds of acts that make it possible for them to take your salvage. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.06.13 09:00:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tippia once they've stolen your salvage
Stolen??? Your Smarter then this Tips
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 09:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Tippia once they've stolen your salvage
Stolen??? Your Smarter then this Tips
Nah. It's entirely possible to steal people's salvage ù it just requires the salvage owner to either be rather silly and dump it into space, or to be blown up. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.06.13 09:06:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tippia Nah. It's entirely possible to steal people's salvage ù it just requires the salvage owner to either be rather silly and dump it into space, or to be blown up.
Right I reread that, no more posting after an all nighter.
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j1tabug IWINIWINIWIN
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:03:00 -
[36]
As mars and the other guy seem not to understand how eve is meant to work i believe its in eves best interest for them to be re-educated so i beg my fellow eve pilots to run there locators on these unfortunate people and help them better understand eve in the only way we know how remember in the end itull be for the greater good.
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Aredeth
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:04:00 -
[37]
when people salvage MY wrecks they dont get flagged so i can NOT shoot them
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j1tabug IWINIWINIWIN
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Aredeth when people salvage MY wrecks they dont get flagged so i can NOT shoot them
And if it was mad so they where flagged for salvaging these kinda whine threads would be replaced with tearful carebears wanting the old way back because they shot a ninja and got there precious mission ship blown up when the ninja comes back in his pvp ship
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Aredeth
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Posted - 2011.06.13 11:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Aredeth you still havent explained there the risk is how i can shoot them
What?
I've explained where the risk is: you might lose against the competition. I've explained how you can shoot them: because you always can after the kinds of acts that make it possible for them to take your salvage.
might? they are there 9 out of every 10 missions salvaging while i am still fighting the mission rats!
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Aredeth
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Posted - 2011.06.13 13:03:00 -
[40]
Originally by: j1tabug IWINIWINIWIN
Originally by: Aredeth when people salvage MY wrecks they dont get flagged so i can NOT shoot them
And if it was mad so they where flagged for salvaging these kinda whine threads would be replaced with tearful carebears wanting the old way back because they shot a ninja and got there precious mission ship blown up when the ninja comes back in his pvp ship
that would be there own fault. i just want the chance to shoot anyone that wants to salvage my wrecks right under my nose
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2011.06.13 13:13:00 -
[41]
Quote: When I run a mission, it's MINE, is it not?
It is not. I have 9.9 amarr faction so Ive done plenty missions.
Quote: New Players: I have seen multiple people come in on a trial account. I endeavor to be an ambassador for Eve and help them with questions and even give them a decent frigate once in a while from my Industry Alt (from one of my THREE accounts). It was done for me when I joined up, so I am passing along the good intentions. BUT, after the trial is over, I've seen far too many of these people leave and NOT stay. A HUGE factor is them trying to build up isk and having their mission loot or mining ore stolen. Do we want a challenge? Sure, we're human. Do we want our GAME to become WORK? Not remotely. Some of us prefer to be 'less challenged' than others.
Ive had my part in creating 2 pretty big corps and approximately ~10,000 new players from the internets Ive had my part in creating because I was sharing eve online sadism. Ive seen like 9000-9500 new players leave eve. Most of the time it's the inability to deal with sadism or cant pay subscription or whatever. This cant be fixed they want WoW or Hello Kitty online. The 2nd biggest issue I have seen is war. Newby traveling to/from jita or wherever to get to the edge of 0.0 to join us is pretty much on their own. Most of the time they undock and die to war targets. Lose everything they own and they quit. More often then not when someone quits and gives us a reason. It's war targets killing their badger.
It's certainly not losing a bit of ore from jetcans. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.13 16:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Aredeth when people salvage MY wrecks they dont get flagged so i can NOT shoot them
Let's be clear on ownership: - Wreck: Owned by you - Loot inside wreck: Owned by you - Salvage inside wreck: First come first serve
CCP has repeatedly affirmed this as intended behavior. I suggest you stop beating your head against a wall that simply won't ever move. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Aston Martin DB5
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:00:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Aston Martin DB5 on 13/06/2011 17:01:24 I agree with some of your concerns and I think gates should be locked .....
Edit: don't mind, Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops -- class B- forum troll
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Daedalus II
Helios Research
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:09:00 -
[44]
You can complain if you wish, I don't really care, and I don't think CCP will change anything.
What is more constructive to do though is MOVE OUT OF THE FREAKIN' MISSION SYSTEMS!
The number of times someone has scanned me down while doing a mission can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and that was almost exclusively in Dodixie.
Nowadays all lvl 4 agents are equally good, just pick another one and your whole list of problems will be gone!
___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:19:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Tippia on 13/06/2011 17:21:16
Originally by: Aredeth might? they are there 9 out of every 10 missions salvaging while i am still fighting the mission rats!
Exactly. The competition is fierce in the salvaging profession, so there's a pretty significant risk that someone else will beat them to the punch, making all their work for naught.
Quote: when people salvage MY wrecks they dont get flagged so i can NOT shoot them
That's because they're not taking anything that's yours ù the wreck isn't yours in the sense you're thinking of, and the salvage is definitely not yours at this stage.
Salvage only becomes yours when you create that salvage. You create salvage by successfully finishing a cycle with a Salvager module. Before that, no salvage exist, and thus there is nothing to be owned. Once created, the Salvage sits in your cargo hold and is therefore unequivocally yours. Only now can it actually be stolen. In order to steal salvage, someone has to take it out of your cargo hold, and the only way to do that is to blow you up. In doing so, and in looting your ship's wreck afterwards, they will become a legitimate target for you to shoot.
Alternatively, once the salvage is yours ù i.e. once you've created it in your cargo hold by using a salvager ù you can choose to jettison it. Anyone stealing your salvage from that jetcan can be shot because they gain standard theft aggression from rummaging through your jetcan.
So, again: if someone actually steals your salvage, you can shoot them.
The problem here is that you presumptively assume to own things you haven't earned yet; in fact, you presume to own things that don't even exist yet. You're acting as if it's stealing when someone who comes along and mines the same asteroid as you, disregarding the fact that the asteroid is there for anyone and everyone to extract ore from, and that no ore actually exists until extracted. Wrecks are exactly the same: they are there for anyone and everyone to extract salvage from, and nothing exists to be owned until someone has actually extracted that (potential) salvage. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:22:00 -
[46]
If people come into MY space I can blow them up. Why? Because I own the sov so I set the rules and do my best to try to enforce them. In hisec it's NPC space. Their rules not yours. You want your own rules. Get your own sov. simples.
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Mograph
Caldari Conspiracy Theorists M-A-L-E-V-O-L-E-N-C-E
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:49:00 -
[47]
unprobable tengu
kthnxbai and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing. |
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.13 19:09:00 -
[48]
I too hang around in the coward arena (high sec) of an mmo when I want to 'plug in and get away from people'. ~~~
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 22:19:00 -
[49]
Originally by: j1tabug IWINIWINIWIN As mars and the other guy seem not to understand how eve is meant to work i believe its in eves best interest for them to be re-educated so i beg my fellow eve pilots to run there locators on these unfortunate people and help them better understand eve in the only way we know how remember in the end itull be for the greater good.
Go ahead, next time you see me log in, or any of the rest of you for that matter. I'll even give you a hit where I might be found: It's either going to be my +5 Implant jump clone in Jita 4-4, or it's going to be my +5 Implant jump clone in Kiainti 7 - Genolution Biotech Production.
Had to log in for that other location, where I found this neat message:
hi there From: Gin G Sent: 2011.06.13 10:25 To: Mars Theran,
Hi
I just saw your posts of the eve o F&D forum and i goto say i goto agree with you you are a compleat idiot so without more waffle i give you two options
1. You pay me a 500 million isk fine for your stupidity and we will forgive you in the eyes of your true god the flying spaghettie monster
Or
2. You dont pay and you will be submitted into our re education program where your missions will be scanned out your wrecks salvaged and your loot stolen and if you get archy about this i will be happy to blow up your mission ships and any other ships that you decide to bring for that matter.
This will hopefully teach you that high sec isnt a safe place and never will be.
Also If you had half a clue about pvp you would firstly know that locking mission gates means a corp at war could put there entier fleet in the mission pocket and be untouchable to those who they are at war with and also low sec is crap for pvp and nullsec is where the money is.
PPS. As you have insaulted both me and your trying to have my way of life removed from the game those that gives me two very good reasons to take these actions against you which i am perfectly in my right to do and is in no way breaking any in game rules just incase you want to go running to a GM to report me. :-)
PPPS. <3 my spanglish so please cry about my spelling also three reasons make for a very strong case
0/
I already know how this game works, you cheap bunch of tin cans.
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Herping yourDerp
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Posted - 2011.06.13 22:23:00 -
[50]
make it harder to scan down mission sites people who invade your mission are more annoying then anything, the fear of an incoming gank, or that your drones will aggro him or something is scarier then what he can actually do
make wrecks scannable so salvaging mission sites people leave behind a profession. this means people like me ( who rather just salvage and loot missions people werent gonnna loot anyways) can do something other then ask for permission
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Zixie Draco
The Queue
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Posted - 2011.06.13 22:36:00 -
[51]
"An eccentric California salvage diver is fishing for proof that al Qaeda overlord Osama bin Laden is really dead." (national news clip)
..what a world we live and play in...what a world...
__________________________________________ ~"Oh bother", said Pooh as he chambered another round.~ |
Gin G
Organized Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.06.13 23:36:00 -
[52]
Mars you sound mad bro |
Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.14 00:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Gin G Mars you sound mad bro
Actually, I thought you sounded mad. Insanely mad. Are you?
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Gin G
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.14 01:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mars Theran
Originally by: Gin G Mars you sound mad bro
Actually, I thought you sounded mad. Insanely mad. Are you?
How exactly is being nice and trying to help you now being mad are you really that dumb...on second thought dont answer that Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.14 03:07:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Mars Theran on 14/06/2011 03:17:34
What part of ransoming my next 3 month's in EVE was nice? I'm apparently missing something.
I wouldn't worry about my being mad anyway. I haven't played EVE on Mars in months, (if ever really), and don't intend to for quite some time. I've still got about 6 months of skill training on him before he's really ready for anything.
When I do play EVE, it's on alt accounts which are in no way associated with my main. You don't know who they are, and I could be right next to you mining or PVPing in your corp, and you'd never know it. Have a nice day.
edit: I never mentioned locking mission gates btw. No idea where you got that from.
PPS Daedalus II is right btw. Most highsec griefers and gankers that target missioners never travel more than 7 jumps in any direction from a Mission Hub like Dodixie, even for a Wardec.
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Diva Bara
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Posted - 2011.06.14 15:13:00 -
[56]
OP is right in one aspect. Many new players (my friends among them) are discouraged and even disgusted because they feel just like targets for bored griefers. A guy wants to mine in peace and all he gets are red can flipping thieves orbiting his Bantam. Guy doing tutorial scanning missions is likely to get blown up because he picked "proof of discovery" from griefer's container. Etc. And to all of you advising that "the thief gets standard aggro" - so what, what is that good for? Can a week (or month...) old char go after the flashy thief? The first time he'll most likely try, after losing a frig he may even switch to his brand new cruiser and get blown to pieces as well... and then he quits Eve trial and tells everyone that Eve sucks because noob has absolutely no protection.
Just like every other MMO, Eve should have noob zones which are protected and killing or harrasing new players there should either be impossible, or carry a strong penalty.
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Woodman2
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Posted - 2011.06.14 16:01:00 -
[57]
The theives can't shoot at you until you shoot at them. As far as pilots salvaging your wrecks, you can shoot the wrecks and leave them nothing, perhaps they'll get bored and find someone else to pester. While doing a mish, check your dscan, if you see combat probes out, there are probably ninjas in the system. You can prepare ahead of time, maybe ask a corp mate to keep guard or salvage for you. If you're doing a multi room mish, check local, if someone has stolen your loot in a room you've already done, they'll show up flagged in local, you can go get your pvp ship and go after them.
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Sarah Steelringer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 00:42:00 -
[58]
It took the OP 7 years to figure out EVE is multiplayer?
Damn
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 01:15:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Herping yourDerp make it harder to scan down mission sites people who invade your mission are more annoying then anything, the fear of an incoming gank, or that your drones will aggro him or something is scarier then what he can actually do
make wrecks scannable so salvaging mission sites people leave behind a profession. this means people like me ( who rather just salvage and loot missions people werent gonnna loot anyways) can do something other then ask for permission
You cannot scan down mission sites.
To the OP, you are stupid. End of discussion.
Hint: No.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.15 01:22:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Diva Bara Just like every other MMO, Eve should have noob zones which are protected and killing or harrasing new players there should either be impossible, or carry a strong penalty.
EVE already has such zones. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 01:29:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Diva Bara Just like every other MMO, Eve should have noob zones which are protected and killing or harrasing new players there should either be impossible, or carry a strong penalty.
EVE already has such zones.
Several of them to be exact.
Hint: Noob systems.
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Diva Bara
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Posted - 2011.06.15 11:29:00 -
[62]
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Diva Bara Just like every other MMO, Eve should have noob zones which are protected and killing or harrasing new players there should either be impossible, or carry a strong penalty.
EVE already has such zones.
Several of them to be exact.
Hint: Noob systems.
Really? How exactly are noobs protected in those systems? Hint: not at all.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 11:58:00 -
[63]
Originally by: ShahFluffers your quotes are garbage..I've told you that before...
Okay I'll start here. As much as I would love the Idea that convincing you guys would be enough to change something in eve,it sadly wont. If the ideas that are brought to the csm and passed up to ccp don't get acknowledged then neither will mine. And to an extent I agree that this change would most likely be too much work for ccp for the small change that it would bring forth. That said my main goal in this thread was not to change anything but to simply state my opinion. Apart from that the people who would have to vote on my behalf would be the mission runner crowd which for the most part have no interest in pvp what so ever. Because while being a solution to much confusion it would do just that,offer a new opportunity for pvp in high sec while eliminating a risk free way to earn isk.
Originally by: ShahFluffers I personally don't see an issue with ninja-salvaging (and the quotes I posted on the first page show CCP doesn't have an issue with it either). And skimming through this thread I think it's safe to say that many others here do not see it as a problem.
First off I have to say I disagree that ninja salvaging doesn't cause a problem. So being a topic that has been beaten to death I'm not too sure where to start. I think I'll start with your quotes on page one that everyone values so highly.Lets break them down and see what they actually bring to the table. Keep in mind that I will treat what ccp says as gods word just for the sake of argument. After all it is their game.
1. CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
In quote one the link doesn't work so all I have to go on is the quote itself and not what was said in the thread. And the quote says nothing other than that ccp wants it to be a mini profession and doesn't consider salvaging as theft.
2. GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
In quote two say the same thing basically,that its an intended game mechanic and not an exploit. I for one never said it was an exploit but that it was a bad game design. But I'll get to that later on in this post. The key part of this quote is the bottom half.
Originally by: GM Faolchu Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along.
"Eve is a harsh place....it's a do or die world". What is harsh about scanning down a player who cant shoot you,and salvaging his wrecks while he tanks the mission? Nothing at all. Its free isk. Not only that but it takes nothing to train an alt which can do this,I estimate two weeks if not less. Even faster now that we have the 100% training time bonus on new characters.
Continued below...
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 12:01:00 -
[64]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 3. Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
This one is very very interesting and a major key in my argument. You quoted the part that you wanted to see but not the relevant part. One of the most used arguments are "it's not your wreck and only the loot inside is yours". I am going to kill this argument once and for all. Now again,keep I'm mind that we are taking the word of CCP as the word of god. The part you should have quoted is this...
Originally by: GM Ytterbium The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission.
Wow..now this brings a whole new light on the subject now doesn't it? This is a senior GM who states that the wreck does in fact belong to the pilot who accepted the mission. This along with the fact that the wreck has my corp name on it,can not be shot or tractor beamed by anyone but myself and my corp clearly proves that the wreck is in fact...mine. He doesn't say It belongs to me as long as my loot is in there,but that it is plain and simple..mine.
4. CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
In this quote CCP Prism x took it upon himself to get a little sarcastic.
Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window.
No **** Sherlock. But he doesn't address any of the key points players bring up in this or any other thread on this subject. All he says is that "It's not stealing" which clearly contradicts what Senior GM Ytterbium stated in the quote above. As far as I know taking anything from a wreck that is mine (which we have proven to be mine) is stealing. So either they need to talk it over what it is exactly that they want,or to fix the game mechanic to reflect this choice. Like change the ownership of the wreck when looted. So until they decide what it is they want,I will call it bad game design. Simple as that. Why? Because the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they say it is intended to be.
5. CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
This quote confirms my statement from above and again contradicts what Senior GM Ytterbium stated in his post. It confirms my statement that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what the designers intend it to be hence its bad game design as I have said many times in this thread. Bad game design which causes confusion and these threads that keep arising on this subject. He has spoken with the designers and they have concluded that the wreck is not mine but the loot is. Why then after the wreck is looted,does it remain unchanged? I still can't shoot it or tractor beam it as a salvager or someone not in that corp. This again confirms a problem and a contradiction in the game design as far as salvaging goes.
Continued below...
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 12:14:00 -
[65]
Quoted posts above come from this thread..
Linkage
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Sir Hillary
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:06:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Diva Bara
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Diva Bara Just like every other MMO, Eve should have noob zones which are protected and killing or harrasing new players there should either be impossible, or carry a strong penalty.
EVE already has such zones.
Several of them to be exact.
Hint: Noob systems.
Really? How exactly are noobs protected in those systems? Hint: not at all.
They can petition acts of griefing that prey on poor game mechanic knowlage (things like can baiting for example), and people entering tutorial mission sites. CCP have a history of reimbursing losses and banning persistant offenders in these cases.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:47:00 -
[67]
And because Tippia seems to be repeating the same thing after being proven wrong..I'll just leave this here as ammo for the "the can is yours not the wreck" argument.
"In Kali all ships (player and NPC) will spawn wrecks upon destruction. This will replace the loot can."
But that's as far as I go into this argument. Just dropping off some ammo for the op
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salty Milk
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:45:00 -
[68]
Edited by: salty Milk on 15/06/2011 14:46:08 Something from Kali is your "proof"?
Do you know what Kali is and what happened since Kali?
EDIT: QUITE IMPORTANT BIT AT THE TOP:
confessions of a married man reported by CCP SoniClover | 2006.07.07 10:42:43 | Comments
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 15:01:00 -
[69]
Originally by: salty Milk Edited by: salty Milk on 15/06/2011 14:46:08 Something from Kali is your "proof"?
Do you know what Kali is and what happened since Kali?
EDIT: QUITE IMPORTANT BIT AT THE TOP:
confessions of a married man reported by CCP SoniClover | 2006.07.07 10:42:43 | Comments
Wut?
Way to go.. read around the relevant part and really think that I care lol. The only words you need to be reading are wreck, replace and can. Take it slow I'd say..you gotta crawl before you walk.
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salty Milk
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: salty Milk Edited by: salty Milk on 15/06/2011 14:46:08 Something from Kali is your "proof"?
Do you know what Kali is and what happened since Kali?
EDIT: QUITE IMPORTANT BIT AT THE TOP:
confessions of a married man reported by CCP SoniClover | 2006.07.07 10:42:43 | Comments
Wut?
Way to go.. read around the relevant part and really think that I care lol. The only words you need to be reading are wreck, replace and can. Take it slow I'd say..you gotta crawl before you walk.
yes i run not walk i know which 3 words you want me to read
the issue is the other hundred words on the subject you dont wanna read and believe
in particular, the words that came from ccp long after 2006
you are bent on CCP's words appearing in 2006 BEFORE kali appeared (pro tip it wasn't called kali when it came out) but you have no interest in CCP's words appearing in any year after that
you are so unbelievably wrong its difficult to assume you are trolling thats how unfeasibly wrong you are
bill oreilly cant explain you
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:00:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Diva Bara Really? How exactly are noobs protected in those systems? Hint: not at all.
By banning people who break the rules.
Originally by: HeIIfire11 And because Tippia seems to be repeating the same thing after being proven wrong..I'll just leave this here as ammo for the "the can is yours not the wreck" argument.
And none of that changes the fact that salvaging a wreck is never stealing, so regardless of what you think of it, the ownership of the wreck is 100% irrelevant.
You keep getting tripped up by a heuristic that explains what you can and cannot do to the wrecks and why. The easiest of these heuristics is "the wreck is not yours, the can inside it is" because that explains everything you need to know. Whether that model is following the exact wording of every dev statement ever doesn't matter ù the model is in line with what actually happens in game and is therefore a better representation and explanation. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Vaju Katru
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:49:00 -
[72]
rofl @ ****** carebears failing to understand EvE Online.
World of CarebearCraft -----------------> its over their, bye.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:57:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Diva Bara Really? How exactly are noobs protected in those systems? Hint: not at all.
By banning people who break the rules.
Originally by: HeIIfire11 And because Tippia seems to be repeating the same thing after being proven wrong..I'll just leave this here as ammo for the "the can is yours not the wreck" argument.
And none of that changes the fact that salvaging a wreck is never stealing, so regardless of what you think of it, the ownership of the wreck is 100% irrelevant.
You keep getting tripped up by a heuristic that explains what you can and cannot do to the wrecks and why. The easiest of these heuristics is "the wreck is not yours, the can inside it is" because that explains everything you need to know. Whether that model is following the exact wording of every dev statement ever doesn't matter ù the model is in line with what actually happens in game and is therefore a better representation and explanation.
No..I'll tell you what the problem is. The "miniprofession" is unfinished like every other profession in eve. The only reason this is so confusing is because they would either have to change all the wrecks to flag the salvager..or create a seperate wreck model to use in missions. Both is too much work. You keep defending them lol. Makes you look just as stupid..I don't mind. There is no can inside the wreck but you can continue to make pretend there is and ignore what I quote. Only what you quote is true right? You may also continue to think ccp is perfect and salvaging is perfectly as intended
What an idiot..I'm done with it fanboy.
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Haiyai Higashi
Caldari Bridgeburner Brigade
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Posted - 2011.06.16 19:01:00 -
[74]
As someone who has run quite a few missions i offer up a tip for those of you having issues with people salvaging your wrecks.
shoot the wreck
if i can't have it, they can't have it
its really that simple
if that doesn't work for you and you would say that missions should be perfectly safe, id agree on one condition. Remove the NPC corps and make you be in an actual corp. This way risk-reward is maintained by letting people war dec you. Still, some of you may not like that. So i would suggest a major reduction in high sec money making if you want it perfectly safe. The basic problem with the suggestion of making missions a locked area is that you get reward with very little risk. So what about explorers? Why should we make less isk per hour on average then someone who is perfectly safe assuming we implement the idea of locked areas? If people could run level 4s with even less risk then they do, which is minimal currently, then no one would do anything else for isk making because there is a risk associated with the isk making when compared to running a level 4.
as a side note, level 4s are already too profitable for their level of risk
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Xythe Marstolt
Minmatar Stark Industries PtyLtd
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Posted - 2011.06.17 10:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You may also continue to think ccp is perfect and salvaging is perfectly as intended
I think you're confusing "working as intended" with "working how I think it should work". You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you think the system is stupid as it exists and think it should be changed then so be it, but that doesn't make it broken.
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Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.17 10:37:00 -
[76]
This topic again?
Time and time again it has come up and shot down due to CCP themselves basing it on maritime law.
You can salvage the hull but the contents still belong to the owner(s).
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:26:00 -
[77]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 The only reason this is so confusing is because they would either have to change all the wrecks to flag the salvager..or create a seperate wreck model to use in missions.
Why would they have to do either of those? Flagging the salvager wouldn't serve the purpose of making the roles clearer ù it would in fact do the opposite. Creating separate wreck models for missions wouldn't make much sense either, since they'd still be free for all.
Quote: You keep defending them lol.
Not really, no. I'm simply explaining how the game works.
Quote: There is no can inside the wreck but you can continue to make pretend there is and ignore what I quote.
How is this so hard for you to understand: what you wrote is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the wrecks are free for all. This is best explained through the model of saying "wrecks are not yours, the can inside them are". Whether that is what happens code-wise isn't important. What is important is for people to understand what they can and cannot do, and that model ù short and simple as it may be ù explains it fully.
Quote: salvaging is perfectly as intended
Wrecks being free for all to salvage is working just as intended, yes. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:35:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 The only reason this is so confusing is because they would either have to change all the wrecks to flag the salvager..or create a seperate wreck model to use in missions.
Why would they have to do either of those? Flagging the salvager wouldn't serve the purpose of making the roles clearer ù it would in fact do the opposite. Creating separate wreck models for missions wouldn't make much sense either, since they'd still be free for all.
Quote: You keep defending them lol.
Not really, no. I'm simply explaining how the game works.
Quote: There is no can inside the wreck but you can continue to make pretend there is and ignore what I quote.
How is this so hard for you to understand: what you wrote is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the wrecks are free for all. This is best explained through the model of saying "wrecks are not yours, the can inside them are". Whether that is what happens code-wise isn't important. What is important is for people to understand what they can and cannot do, and that model ù short and simple as it may be ù explains it fully.
Quote: salvaging is perfectly as intended
Wrecks being free for all to salvage is working just as intended, yes.
Really? Fascinating! I don't need you of all people to tell me how the game works. I on the other hand am telling you what causes these countless threads of confusion and that is bad game design..same bad game design you constantly try to justify and thus make yourself look like a narrow minded fanboy. But do carry on.
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Unbendable McRib
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:40:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Unbendable McRib on 17/06/2011 11:41:33
Originally by: Sobek Thoth
When I run a mission, it's MINE, is it not? I am referring to the loosely phrased, "High Security Space".
NPC's were removed from the gates in "High Sec" space some years ago because of the ludicrous notion that gate-rats could exist in "High Security" where Concord supposedly rules the roost. I was all for this because it seemed foolish. As for running a mission in "High Sec", now we not only contend with the NPC's trying to kill us, but now with pirates invading and looting our mission. I have enough excitement in my own life, I do not need for you to create it for me.
First there was "Ore Looting": Instead of making use of Concord, CCP took the route of "kill rights"? Now, IRL, I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy. But this is a game, a game where running a mission, salvaging a wreck and selling the loot OR mining ore, refining it, building ships/modules is a source of INCOME for a LOT of us and we CHOOSE to do it in "High Sec" so we won't be bothered. Some may say that seems boring, but for some of us, we're willing to pay $15 a month for it because that is what we WANT. Bending to a few that wanted the opportunity to fight, but not go to 0.0 or be at war, "kill rights" was invented. I saw this as a bad idea and a further degeneration of what "High Sec" space is at it's core.
Thieving should be strongly encouraged to stay out of "High Sec" space.
New Players: I have seen multiple people come in on a trial account. I endeavor to be an ambassador for Eve and help them with questions and even give them a decent frigate once in a while from my Industry Alt (from one of my THREE accounts). It was done for me when I joined up, so I am passing along the good intentions. BUT, after the trial is over, I've seen far too many of these people leave and NOT stay. A HUGE factor is them trying to build up isk and having their mission loot or mining ore stolen. Do we want a challenge? Sure, we're human. Do we want our GAME to become WORK? Not remotely. Some of us prefer to be 'less challenged' than others.
Having the two different types of space is a fantastic idea for garnering a wider range of players/income. But if some of the annoyance of "Low Sec" is going to be allowed to spill over into "High Sec", you will lose players.
I don't think we'll be able to steal ships/ore/modules from other players inside a station once we're walking around in them, so why is Concord left to be so ineffective in "High Sec" space?
Set alarms on cans/wrecks, Lock the mission to only the player and/or fleet members, I don't care what you do, but I want to run my mission in my own way........ALONE and UNHINDERED.
In closing, for the players who will read this and shout to the heavens, "stop whining!" or "Go play X3 or Star Trek then!". CCP, these ARE options.
Obviously this post is not for the likes of those people as THEY are happy with their lawlessness, but rather the exceptionally large amount of players that enjoy "High Sec" for the same reasons I used to, to relax and unplug.
Graphics does not a game make,
Quote:
I agree with that! Poeple who like to Play pvp can Play in Low Sec or 0.0 (W.H.) Space. Pilots who want to play PVE can stay in High Sec an Fly Mission or Mine! Stop that Crime in High Sec its boring! Stop High sec Gatecamps this is also ****!
Someone write EVE is only for PVP!! Great Please CCP Stop Mining remove Asteroids, POS, Planetary Indu and Productions remove Haulers and Mining Ships! Its not nessesary for PVP!
Please CCP find an Solution where both sites can live with it and have fun to play!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:56:00 -
[80]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Really? Fascinating! I don't need you of all people to tell me how the game works.
No, but others do, and you're only confusing them by futzing over irrelevancies.
Quote: I on the other hand am telling you what causes these countless threads of confusion and that is bad game design.
àwhich doesn't help in clearing up the confusion.
Quote: same bad game design you constantly try to justify
No, I'm explaining it. Different thing. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:17:00 -
[81]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 12:18:24
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 I on the other hand am telling you what causes these countless threads of confusion and that is bad game design.
àwhich doesn't help in clearing up the confusion.
You justifying it doesn't help either. And while you highjack every thread on this subject with your arrogant opinion no solution or ideas on how to make it better can be established.
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 same bad game design you constantly try to justify
No, I'm explaining it. Different thing.
You explain the bad game design...right. Look at what you're posting please.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:28:00 -
[82]
I don't understand why you argue about this. It is clear that this game is full....full of flaws.Fw is broken and unfinished, PI is broken and under constant work, the bounty system is worthless, hybrids being broken have taken Gallente out of the competition, npc ewar is broken, the rr mechanic was broken which you defended and was fixed just like I said it would be as incursion came out..there is so much unfinished work in this game and the wreck mechanics which cause confusion is one of them.
Who says these things are broken? A forum full of people complaining about them..thats who.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:45:00 -
[83]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You justifying it doesn't help either.
It's a good thing that I'm not doing that, then.
Quote: And while you highjack every thread on this subject with your arrogant opinion no solution or ideas on how to make it better can be established.
Sure they can ù it's just that no-one ever wants to offer any ideas for how to solve the problems.
Quote: You explain the bad game design...right.
No, I explain the mechanics.
Quote: I don't understand why you argue about this.
Argue what? I'm saying that wrecks are free for all to salvage. I'm saying it because they are. There's nothing broken about that.
Quote: there is so much unfinished work in this game and the wreck mechanics which cause confusion is one of them.
Fortunately, those mechanics can be explained very easily by saying "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside it is".
Quote: Who says these things are broken? A forum full of people complaining about them..thats who.
There's a difference between "broken" and "not working the way I want them to"à A vast majority of the people claiming salvaging is broken is actually saying "I want that salvage to be mine without any additional work", which isn't really the same thing. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:58:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You justifying it doesn't help either.
It's a good thing that I'm not doing that, then.
Quote: And while you highjack every thread on this subject with your arrogant opinion no solution or ideas on how to make it better can be established.
Sure they can ù it's just that no-one ever wants to offer any ideas for how to solve the problems.
Quote: You explain the bad game design...right.
No, I explain the mechanics.
Quote: I don't understand why you argue about this.
Argue what? I'm saying that wrecks are free for all to salvage. I'm saying it because they are. There's nothing broken about that.
Quote: there is so much unfinished work in this game and the wreck mechanics which cause confusion is one of them.
Fortunately, those mechanics can be explained very easily by saying "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside it is".
Quote: Who says these things are broken? A forum full of people complaining about them..thats who.
There's a difference between "broken" and "not working the way I want them to"à A vast majority of the people claiming salvaging is broken is actually saying "I want that salvage to be mine without any additional work", which isn't really the same thing.
Your arguments are no longer worth quoting because they are the same worthless crap you always say "the can blah blah". The can was replaced and this was said by a dev who introduced wrecks. No Tippia your make believe can does not exist. Keep defending your perfect game and while you are at it pull apart this thread why don't you.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529511
I will no longer read or respond to any of your posts. Those that have eyes...let them see. You are not worth another second of my time.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:50:00 -
[85]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Your arguments are no longer worth quoting because they are the same worthless crap you always say "the can blah blah".
And you still don't get it.
It is a model. An illustration. A heuristic. A simplification.
It is an explanation ù not a description ù of the entirety of the wreck behaviours.
You have yet to show that it doesn't work like that.
Quote: The can was replaced
Irrelevant. The model still works.
Quote: and this was said by a dev who introduced wrecks.
Irrelevant. The model still works.
Quote: No Tippia your make believe can does not exist.
Irrelevant. The model still works.
Quote: Keep defending your perfect game
You have never read anything I've written, have you?
Quote: and while you are at it pull apart this thread why don't you.
Why would I?
Quote: Those that have eyes...let them see.
Those who have eyes will be able to look at the model, then look at the game, then look at the model again and see that the two match. They will also understand why this heuristic is helpful.
Regardless of how much you dislike it, the model works perfectly for its purpose and you haven't been able to argue its usefulness as a learning tool. Instead, you only try to confuse people, for no good reason. It's almost is if you want people to not understand salvaging and lootingà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:35:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Tippia Bunch of useless bull****
You really are one stupid mother ****er. One thing is sure..you have made an enemy in this game. Don't say you weren't warned.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:44:00 -
[87]
I am Tippia please war dec my corp. :) -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 18:03:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Tippia on 17/06/2011 18:10:12
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You really are one stupid mother ****er.
At least I know what a "model" is, unlike some simpletons.
Do you want me to go through the model, step by step, and explain why it works? It's a very short and simple model ù it's only eight words ù which is a large part of why it works. So you don't have to be afraid: the step-by-step won't be long and complicated.
Quote: One thing is sure..you have made an enemy in this game.
Awwwà snookums. If you didn't understand, you just had to ask. No need to get angry, especially not with other people, but not with yourself either, even if it is you who has the problem.
Quote: Don't say you weren't warned.
Why would I need to be warned? You are irrelevant. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Baaldor
Ascendent. Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.06.17 18:15:00 -
[89]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia Bunch of useless bull****
You really are one stupid mother ****er. One thing is sure..you have made an enemy in this game. Don't say you weren't warned.
That is some funny **** right there.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.17 19:37:00 -
[90]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia Bunch of useless bull****
You really are one stupid mother ****er. One thing is sure..you have made an enemy in this game. Don't say you weren't warned.
I can haz your enemy too?
Because i think your argument is full of crap, you have been unable to make your point other than to say that you want it to work your way because you are used to getting your way with everything in life.
Awaiting war dec
Riedle
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:04:00 -
[91]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 20:06:24
Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia Bunch of useless bull****
You really are one stupid mother ****er. One thing is sure..you have made an enemy in this game. Don't say you weren't warned.
I can haz your enemy too?
Because i think your argument is full of crap, you have been unable to make your point other than to say that you want it to work your way because you are used to getting your way with everything in life.
Awaiting war dec
Riedle
My point has been made perfectly clear. If you are too ******ed to read blame your mother.
Also..don't think everyone is as stupid as you. I don't post with my main you fing muppetBe carefull for what you ask. Same goes for the two above you.
Oh and Tippia you are nothing but talk..I've done my homework and if you would log on for more than 5 min a day your ass would have been mine long ago. Start playing the game or give me your main and we can have at it.
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garus banta
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:13:00 -
[92]
A HA HA HA HA HA!!!
I didn't come to an MMO to mingle or play with others...
Eve online is a social scifi game, not a "moron with a ship waving a gun alone" in space game.
Go play Mass Effect you numbnut!!!
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Baaldor
Ascendent. Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:14:00 -
[93]
Hahaha, holy **** dude you have truly made my day.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:17:00 -
[94]
the biggest misconception about eve is that lowsec is somehow more dangerous then highsec. Not really, in my experience it's actually safer, only 10% or less of the player base is in lowsec, usually the 0.4 systems leading into highsec are camped but since bubbles don't work it's really easy to slip through eve n in a shuttle. There are many opportunities in lowsec not available in highsec and it's relatively quiet.
If you want to be left alone go into deep lowsec and enjoy a virtually player free environment!
I'm serious yes.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:23:00 -
[95]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 20:28:16
Originally by: cyndrogen the biggest misconception about eve is that lowsec is somehow more dangerous then highsec. Not really, in my experience it's actually safer, only 10% or less of the player base is in lowsec, usually the 0.4 systems leading into highsec are camped but since bubbles don't work it's really easy to slip through eve n in a shuttle. There are many opportunities in lowsec not available in highsec and it's relatively quiet.
If you want to be left alone go into deep lowsec and enjoy a virtually player free environment!
I'm serious yes.
Who said anything about being alone? I don't get ninja salvaged nor do I play alone. Why would you want to play this game alone? My argument is just in general when it comes to the salvaging mechanic.
Infact I've said it many times before..I don't even salvage. It doesn't take a genius to see it's not working right when people keep complaining about it.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:26:00 -
[96]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Oh and Tippia you are nothing but talk.
àand yet, you haven't been able to prove an of that talk wrong.
Quote: I've done my homework
àand yet you think the model is wrong? Would you care to point out how? With all that homework, it shouldn't be hard to point out something that it doesn't cover.
Quote: if you would log on for more than 5 min a day
Maybe you should do your homework. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:35:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Oh and Tippia you are nothing but talk.
àand yet, you haven't been able to prove an of that talk wrong.
Quote: I've done my homework
àand yet you think the model is wrong? Would you care to point out how? With all that homework, it shouldn't be hard to point out something that it doesn't cover.
Quote: if you would log on for more than 5 min a day
Maybe you should do your homework.
It's all been said before..you can kiss my ass really. The key points are on the last page..reread them. Those are the reasons people start these threads. Because the only thing telling people that the wrecks are not theirs are you and ccp. The game mechanic sure doesn't.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:40:00 -
[98]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 It's all been said before..you can kiss my ass really.
No thanks.
Quote: The key points are on the last page..reread them. Those are the reasons people start these threads.
Nope. Nothing there to show that there's anything wrong with the model.
Quote: Because the only thing telling people that the wrecks are not theirs are you and ccp. The game mechanic sure doesn't.
Hence the usefulness of the model.
Oh, and the mechanics sure hint at it since you can remove wrecks without any repercussion. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:44:00 -
[99]
Edited by: ShahFluffers on 17/06/2011 20:45:30
Originally by: HeIIfire11
My point has been made perfectly clear. If you are too ******ed to read blame your mother.
Dude... you haven't proven your point. Anyone with any semblance of logic can see that. Your "masterful" dissection of the CCP quotes to "prove" your point is merely a semantic shell-game.
Quite basically, your entire argument hinges on 2 quotes from GM Ytterbium. In the first quote GM Ytterbium says...
Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
... and in the second quote he says...
Originally by: GM Ytterbium The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission.
Isn't it reasonable to assume (especially in light of the first quote) that he was referring to wrecks in the sense that the "loot" inside the wrecks would belong to the person who accepted the mission and NOT everything in the mission? And before you say "then he should have said it like that, but he didn't, so thus I'm right" bear in mind that GMs are people too and they will usually say things in the "simplest/easiest" way possible... which unfortunately leads to confusion if people take them too literally (as you seem to).
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Also..don't think everyone is as stupid as you. I don't post with my main you fing muppetBe carefull for what you ask. Same goes for the two above you.
Oh and Tippia you are nothing but talk..I've done my homework and if you would log on for more than 5 min a day your ass would have been mine long ago. Start playing the game or give me your main and we can have at it.
Ahhh bravado. You sure showed them (and me). Tell ya what... if you do want to follow through on your bark, come to the system of Auga in the Hed constellation. I'm usually on after 9pm PST. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:46:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 It's all been said before..you can kiss my ass really.
No thanks.
Quote: The key points are on the last page..reread them. Those are the reasons people start these threads.
Nope. Nothing there to show that there's anything wrong with the model.
Quote: Because the only thing telling people that the wrecks are not theirs are you and ccp. The game mechanic sure doesn't.
Hence the usefulness of the model.
Oh, and the mechanics sure hint at it since you can remove wrecks without any repercussion.
You and your model..what fing model. And the fact that you can remove a wreck that only I can shoot,tractor beam and has my corp name on it is the problem. Period.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:46:00 -
[101]
Edited by: cyndrogen on 17/06/2011 20:47:23
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 20:28:16
Originally by: cyndrogen the biggest misconception about eve is that lowsec is somehow more dangerous then highsec. Not really, in my experience it's actually safer, only 10% or less of the player base is in lowsec, usually the 0.4 systems leading into highsec are camped but since bubbles don't work it's really easy to slip through eve n in a shuttle. There are many opportunities in lowsec not available in highsec and it's relatively quiet.
If you want to be left alone go into deep lowsec and enjoy a virtually player free environment!
I'm serious yes.
Who said anything about being alone? I don't get ninja salvaged nor do I play alone. Why would you want to play this game alone? My argument is just in general when it comes to the salvaging mechanic.
Infact I've said it many times before..I don't even salvage. It doesn't take a genius to see it's not working right when people keep complaining about it.
The salvaging mechanic is a bit of a pain since tractor beams don't work on wrecks that do not belong to you. So while you CAN salvage other peoples wrecks it's much slower then salvaging your own, you lose money by spending more time salvaging another persons loot when you can make more by running the mission AND salvaging yourself. It's also much easier to accept a mission then deploy probes to scan for the wrecks.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:53:00 -
[102]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You and your model..what fing model.
"The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
Quote: And the fact that you can remove a wreck that only I can shoot,tractor beam and has my corp name on it is the problem.
àwhich is easily explained by "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is." ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 20:54:00 -
[103]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 20:56:05
Originally by: ShahFluffers Isn't it reasonable to assume (especially in light of the first quote) that he was referring to wrecks in the sense that the "loot" inside the wrecks would belong to the person who accepted the mission and NOT everything in the mission? And before you say "then he should have said it like that, but he didn't, so thus I'm right" bear in mind that GMs are people too and they will usually say things in the "simplest/easiest" way possible... which unfortunately leads to confusion if people take them too literally (as you seem to).
YOu throw these quotes in every thread on this subject..I just took them apart. I take them as literally as you do. Simple as that.
Originally by: ShahFluffers
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Also..don't think everyone is as stupid as you. I don't post with my main you fing muppetBe carefull for what you ask. Same goes for the two above you.
Oh and Tippia you are nothing but talk..I've done my homework and if you would log on for more than 5 min a day your ass would have been mine long ago. Start playing the game or give me your main and we can have at it.
Ahhh bravado. You sure showed them (and me). Tell ya what... if you do want to follow through on your bark, come to the system of Auga in the Hed constellation. I'm usually on after 9pm PST.
Right..follow through on my bark and war dec someones troll alt with my mission alt..even better come looking for you and waste my time Hold your breath I'll be there soon.
As for Tippia..he wont throw his main out there and since I will be leaving this game for lack of content..I will do the best I can by liquidating around 40 bill in assets and making sure his "alt" has some fun out of it for the next few months. Either that or he will ***** up and leave the corp. Either way is fine. And that without even logging on lol.
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You and your model..what fing model.
"The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
Quote: And the fact that you can remove a wreck that only I can shoot,tractor beam and has my corp name on it is the problem.
àwhich is easily explained by "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
No..there is no can.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:02:00 -
[104]
Originally by: cyndrogen Edited by: cyndrogen on 17/06/2011 20:47:23
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 20:28:16
Originally by: cyndrogen the biggest misconception about eve is that lowsec is somehow more dangerous then highsec. Not really, in my experience it's actually safer, only 10% or less of the player base is in lowsec, usually the 0.4 systems leading into highsec are camped but since bubbles don't work it's really easy to slip through eve n in a shuttle. There are many opportunities in lowsec not available in highsec and it's relatively quiet.
If you want to be left alone go into deep lowsec and enjoy a virtually player free environment!
I'm serious yes.
Who said anything about being alone? I don't get ninja salvaged nor do I play alone. Why would you want to play this game alone? My argument is just in general when it comes to the salvaging mechanic.
Infact I've said it many times before..I don't even salvage. It doesn't take a genius to see it's not working right when people keep complaining about it.
The salvaging mechanic is a bit of a pain since tractor beams don't work on wrecks that do not belong to you. So while you CAN salvage other peoples wrecks it's much slower then salvaging your own, you lose money by spending more time salvaging another persons loot when you can make more by running the mission AND salvaging yourself. It's also much easier to accept a mission then deploy probes to scan for the wrecks.
The main point is that it is risk free. It is a pvp encounter that the mission runner can't respond to.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:03:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Tippia on 17/06/2011 21:04:21
Originally by: HeIIfire11 As for Tippia..he wont throw his main out there
Sure I will.
Quote: I will do the best I can by liquidating around 40 bill in assets and making sure his "alt" has some fun out of it for the next few months.
Good luck finding that "alt"
Quote: No..there is no can.
Irrelevant. The model still works.
Quote: The main point is that it is risk free. It is a pvp encounter that the mission runner can't respond to.
If it's salvaging you're talking about then it has the same risk for both participants, and the mission runner most certainly can respond to this pvp encounter. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:10:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 As for Tippia..he wont throw his main out there
Sure I will.
What are you waiting for?
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 The main point is that it is risk free. It is a pvp encounter that the mission runner can't respond to.
If it's salvaging you're talking about then it has the same risk for both participants, and the mission runner most certainly can respond to this pvp encounter.
No he can't when he's doing the mission.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:12:00 -
[107]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 20:06:24
Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia Bunch of useless bull****
You really are one stupid mother ****er. One thing is sure..you have made an enemy in this game. Don't say you weren't warned.
I can haz your enemy too?
Because i think your argument is full of crap, you have been unable to make your point other than to say that you want it to work your way because you are used to getting your way with everything in life.
Awaiting war dec
Riedle
My point has been made perfectly clear. If you are too ******ed to read blame your mother.
Also..don't think everyone is as stupid as you. I don't post with my main you fing muppetBe carefull for what you ask. Same goes for the two above you.
Oh and Tippia you are nothing but talk..I've done my homework and if you would log on for more than 5 min a day your ass would have been mine long ago. Start playing the game or give me your main and we can have at it.
Careful everyone - he's an internet tough guy. respect his authority!
lols
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:12:00 -
[108]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 What are you waiting for?
I'm not waiting.
Quote: No he can't when he's doing the mission.
Sure he can. Tractor, salvager, AB/MWD ù all tools of the tradeà hell, the guns will work if he wants to go for a scorched-earth kind of win. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:19:00 -
[109]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
YOu throw these quotes in every thread on this subject..I just took them apart. I take them as literally as you do. Simple as that.
You did no such thing. You simply used smoke and mirrors to try and confuse what they were saying... which is more or less along the lines of "the loot inside the wreck is yours, the salvage that can be gained from the wreck is not" and "it is working as intended."
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Right..follow through on my bark and war dec someones troll alt with my mission alt..even better come looking for you and waste my time Hold your breath I'll be there soon.
Dude... this IS my main. And I WANT you to come after me. My corpies and I are bored to tears with no Amarr militia to shoot at.
Originally by: HeIIfire11
As for Tippia..he wont throw his main out there and since I will be leaving this game for lack of content..I will do the best I can by liquidating around 40 bill in assets and making sure his "alt" has some fun out of it for the next few months. Either that or he will ***** up and leave the corp. Either way is fine. And that without even logging on lol.
Your stuff? Can I haz? I'll even make you a deal... give me your stuff and I'll edit all my posts in this thread to say you are right and that people should support this motion (no, seriously, I would).
_______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:21:00 -
[110]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 21:24:36
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 What are you waiting for?
I'm not waiting.
Quote: No he can't when he's doing the mission.
Sure he can. Tractor, salvager, AB/MWD ù all tools of the tradeà hell, the guns will work if he wants to go for a scorched-earth kind of win.
So you're saying this is your main? If so I'm out of luck I guess because you do nothing but play forum warrior and hardly log on.
Originally by: Riedle Careful everyone - he's an internet tough guy. respect his authority!
lols
Not claiming the inet tough guy but I have enough isk if not more to do anything you can do in this game. There are plenty of people who want to earn isk.
Originally by: ShahFluffers Your stuff? Can I haz? I'll even make you a deal... give me your stuff and I'll edit all my posts in this thread to say you are right and that people should support this motion (no, seriously, I would).
As if I give a **** about your saying I'm right Get a life you aren't nearly important enough. And if you want my stuff show me some Tippia kill mails (because you and your corp are bored) and you can get payed.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:25:00 -
[111]
Careful everyone - he's an internet toughRICH guy. respect his authority!
lols
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:28:00 -
[112]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 21:28:13
Originally by: Riedle Careful everyone - he's an internet toughRICH guy. respect his authority!
lols
40 bill isn't rich really but I guess to someone like you it is. And when you're rich you don't have to be tough.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:30:00 -
[113]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 So you're saying this is your main? If so I'm out of luck I guess because you do nothing but play forum warrior and hardly log on.
Like I said: do your homework.
àincidentally, that would also have revealed to you what tools the MR has at his disposal to respond to a competing salvager. Unsurprisingly, they're the tools of a salvager. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Baaldor
Ascendent. Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:31:00 -
[114]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 21:28:13
Originally by: Riedle Careful everyone - he's an internet toughRICH guy. respect his authority!
lols
40 bill isn't rich really but I guess to someone like you it is. And when you're rich you don't have to be tough.
Sup, I'll be your huckleberry....
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:32:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 So you're saying this is your main? If so I'm out of luck I guess because you do nothing but play forum warrior and hardly log on.
Like I said: do your homework.
àincidentally, that would also have revealed to you what tools the MR has at his disposal to respond to a competing salvager. Unsurprisingly, they're the tools of a salvager.
Ahh..so you are a ***** just like I thought.
As far as th mr goes I mean fighting and not salvaging which the mr can't do without aggro.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:35:00 -
[116]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 As far as th mr goes I mean fighting and not salvaging which the mr can't do without aggro.
So when you wrote "no he can't", you didn't actually read what it was you were responding to.
Goodie. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:37:00 -
[117]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 21:37:56
Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 17/06/2011 21:28:13
Originally by: Riedle Careful everyone - he's an internet toughRICH guy. respect his authority!
lols
40 bill isn't rich really but I guess to someone like you it is. And when you're rich you don't have to be tough.
Sup, I'll be your huckleberry....
Your killboard looks nice I might get back to you on that.
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 As far as th mr goes I mean fighting and not salvaging which the mr can't do without aggro.
So when you wrote "no he can't", you didn't actually read what it was you were responding to.
Goodie.
I was right about the b i t c h part though...Goodie.
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:49:00 -
[118]
Thread cleaned of some trolling and off-topic posts. Please only reply if you have something constructive and on topic to contribute to the discussion.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us |
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:52:00 -
[119]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Thread cleaned of some trolling and off-topic posts. Please only reply if you have something constructive and on topic to contribute to the discussion.
And the post above yours is constructive
Guess good ole Tip had enough and reported me
Baaldor I will look you guys up and if you meet my needs we can talk buisness. Will contact you in game soon. If not c&p is full of opportunities Tipp
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 22:03:00 -
[120]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You and your model..what fing model.
"The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
Quote: And the fact that you can remove a wreck that only I can shoot,tractor beam and has my corp name on it is the problem.
àwhich is easily explained by "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
No..there is no can.
àand there are no electrons whizzing around the nucleus in discrete orbits, but Bohr's model still explains the spectral lines of a helium atom.
Whether there is a can or not is completely irrelevant ù the model explains the behaviour of wrecks.
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: cyndrogen The salvaging mechanic is a bit of a pain since tractor beams don't work on wrecks that do not belong to you. So while you CAN salvage other peoples wrecks it's much slower then salvaging your own, you lose money by spending more time salvaging another persons loot when you can make more by running the mission AND salvaging yourself. It's also much easier to accept a mission then deploy probes to scan for the wrecks.
The main point is that it is risk free.
And the main counter-point is that both salvagers face the same risks: being slower than the other guy and not getting the swag. In this competition the mission-runner has some distinct advantages, and in terms of risk vs. effort, the ninja is far more deserving of that reward.
àand in a sense, the same can be said about loot: both parties run the risk of being too slow and not getting the reward, but with the added risk of the mission runner being blown up by the NPCs (negligible) and of the theif being blown up by the MR (negligibleà as long as the MR isn't stupid).
And either way, the mission runner most certainly can respond to the competition. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 22:10:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You and your model..what fing model.
"The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
Quote: And the fact that you can remove a wreck that only I can shoot,tractor beam and has my corp name on it is the problem.
àwhich is easily explained by "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
No..there is no can.
àand there are no electrons whizzing around the nucleus in discrete orbits, but Bohr's model still explains the spectral lines of a helium atom.
Whether there is a can or not is completely irrelevant ù the model explains the behaviour of wrecks.
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: cyndrogen The salvaging mechanic is a bit of a pain since tractor beams don't work on wrecks that do not belong to you. So while you CAN salvage other peoples wrecks it's much slower then salvaging your own, you lose money by spending more time salvaging another persons loot when you can make more by running the mission AND salvaging yourself. It's also much easier to accept a mission then deploy probes to scan for the wrecks.
The main point is that it is risk free.
And the main counter-point is that both salvagers face the same risks: being slower than the other guy and not getting the swag. In this competition the mission-runner has some distinct advantages, and in terms of risk vs. effort, the ninja is far more deserving of that reward.
àand in a sense, the same can be said about loot: both parties run the risk of being too slow and not getting the reward, but with the added risk of the mission runner being blown up by the NPCs (negligible) and of the theif being blown up by the MR (negligibleà as long as the MR isn't stupid).
And either way, the mission runner most certainly can respond to the competition.
So you're just going to report me and come back with your same old lame arguments? rofl
No point in arguing with you..I wont be in this game much longer anyways.Just long enough to see you burnNo turning back now..I hope for your sake that this isn't your main. If it is I will have gotten the chance to teach you something about this gamme after all...never start a forum war with your main. Unless it's all you do which might be the case knowing you
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 22:16:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Tippia on 17/06/2011 22:17:19
Originally by: HeIIfire11 So you're just going to report me and come back with your same old lame arguments? rofl
There has to be some appeal to ithem since you can't seem to come up with any argument to dispute them.
So, once again: what's wrong with the model? Can you provide an example of a situation where it does not work? And can you demonstrate why it's riskier for the mission-runner to salvage or pick up loot than it is for the ninja? Can you also show how the tools available to the mission-runner does not, in fact, help him in the competition against the ninja? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.18 01:10:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Riedle on 18/06/2011 01:10:42 This is my main even if my trolls were removed. Remember Riedle!
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Aston Martin DB5
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Posted - 2011.06.18 02:48:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Aston Martin DB5 on 18/06/2011 02:50:38 What makes matters worse......the players that do come out to these mission sites are in their fully fitted pvp ships. They basically have complete advantage .... it's not like we're going to fire back at them or something. I guess the counter argument is go dock up and get a bigger and better ship ... lol Well, it's what the Sobek Thoth mentioned, "If I wanted to deal with that garbage, I would move BACK out to 0.0" So basically some people would like to do pve things by themselves without being bothered by other people, which can agree!
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ion Utama
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Posted - 2011.06.18 04:05:00 -
[125]
Sobek Thoth ****ing big baby
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 05:06:00 -
[126]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 05:06:09
Originally by: Riedle Look mom..I'm on the internet!!!111
No you reject..I don't wanna play with you
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.18 08:05:00 -
[127]
Hi, I'm new to this game.
Could you please change it so it fits with my preconceived notions of how an mmo should work?
I dont see what's so hard to understand.
Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is. Competition for the wrecks is the risk for both parties. If they decide to take your can you can choose to attack them, or come back in a pvp boat. That is their risk.
I've been playing for less than a month and have managed to grasp this simple concept. What's the problem?
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 08:38:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Snake Scofield Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is.
Nope.
Originally by: GM Ytterbium The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission.
And nope.
Originally by: CCP SoniClover In Kali all ships (player and NPC) will spawn wrecks upon destruction. This will replace the loot can.
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand either really.
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.18 08:47:00 -
[129]
Very good. Nice quotes.
Maybe easier to say that the salvage rights to a wreck don't belong to anybody.
It doesn't matter though, it's obvious you're going to persist regardless of what anyone says. I don't care if it's changed or not, I'll just play it the way it is now.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:55:00 -
[130]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 09:59:56
Originally by: Snake Scofield Edited by: Snake Scofield on 18/06/2011 09:05:40 Very good. Nice quotes.
Maybe easier to say that the salvage rights to a wreck don't belong to anybody.
It doesn't matter though, it's obvious you're going to persist regardless of what anyone says. I don't care if it's changed or not, I'll just play it the way it is now.
Edit:
Actually come to think of it, why should you have any rights to anything? If there's a can sitting in space, first come first served. That's a bit more realistic and more fitting with the eve style in my opinion. Make it all up for grabs, no flagging.
The point I am making is not that it should change really..I don't want the stinking salvage tbh. People assume it belongs to them because of how it works. My point is that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they want it to be. I know they want it free for all and they can have it. But then let everyone tractor beam wrecs, don't protect empty or full wrecks by concord, don't leave my corp name on it empty or not, make wrecks scannable and not players. These are the misleading facts that cause these threads.
Unfinished , sloppy, lazy coded and typical ccp mini profession. Nothing new.
Edit: I have..within the many huge discussions proposed many changes yes and even my favorite (flag the salvager) but what it boils down to is that it's just another unfinished bunch of crap like many other professions in eve and on top of it all in my opinion it is risk free and nothing but a griefer tool. (risk free for the ninja that is)
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 10:03:00 -
[131]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 10:06:02 Honestly I'm sick of the topic. If you really are intrested in this topic read through this which contains all arguments from both sides pretty much. Here you go..have fun.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1501137&page=1
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Bubbles Udan
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Posted - 2011.06.18 11:34:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Sobek Thoth
I have been in-game for almost 7yrs.
*snip*
New Players: I have seen multiple people come in on a trial account. I endeavor to be an ambassador for Eve and help them with questions and even give them a decent frigate once in a while from my Industry Alt (from one of my THREE accounts). It was done for me when I joined up, so I am passing along the good intentions. BUT, after the trial is over, I've seen far too many of these people leave and NOT stay. A HUGE factor is them trying to build up isk and having their mission loot or mining ore stolen.
I am new so I feel qualified to speak on this. Making money as a noob is incredibly easy, so much that I have more money than I can possibly spend. My low skillpoints simply do not allow me to fly anything expensive and this will be true for another couple months.
This point of yours is not valid at all, and it might be because you are not being helpful to the noobs that you help. You should direct them to level social and connections to 3, then complete the sisters of eve missions and storyline missions that come with it. Doing this will let a noob run level 3 missions with almost any agent in the game and the isk will flow quite well from there.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 15:50:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 15:52:35
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Snake Scofield Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is.
Nope.
You're missing the important part of that quote:
"Hi, I'm new to this game. à I dont see what's so hard to understand."
Do you understand why this model is so handy now? Because it explains the mechanics in full in such a way that even new players can pick it up instantly. If you want to tack on "yes, yes, the mechanics are screwed up and things aren't all that clear, but that's the gist of it" at the end, then feel free to, but the fact remains: the entire thing can be explained in that very short sentence:
The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is.
Quote: I'm not sure what's so hard to understand either really.
It's not hard to understand. It is just completely irrelevant because it doesn't actually provide any solution to the problem of people being confused by the mechanics ù the model does. Why you are so opposed to a simple model to educate people is quite beyond meà
Quote: People assume it belongs to them because of how it works. My point is that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they want it to be.
And once you slap them in the face with the model, they have a much easier time not assuming that any more. Would it be nice if the mechanics changed so they fully matched the intent, and thus gave salvagers a nice buff? Yes, of course. Until then, the best we can do is educate players and rid them of that assumption, and the model does exactly that. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:02:00 -
[134]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 16:07:11
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 15:52:35
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Snake Scofield Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is.
Nope.
You're missing the important part of that quote:
"Hi, I'm new to this game. à I dont see what's so hard to understand."
Do you understand why this model is so handy now? Because it explains the mechanics in full in such a way that even new players can pick it up instantly. If you want to tack on "yes, yes, the mechanics are screwed up and things aren't all that clear, but that's the gist of it" at the end, then feel free to, but the fact remains: the entire thing can be explained in that very short sentence:
The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is.
Quote: I'm not sure what's so hard to understand either really.
It's not hard to understand. It is just completely irrelevant because it doesn't actually provide any solution to the problem of people being confused by the mechanics ù the model does. Why you are so opposed to a simple model to educate people is quite beyond meà
Quote: People assume it belongs to them because of how it works. My point is that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they want it to be.
And once you slap them in the face with the model, they have a much easier time not assuming that any more. Would it be nice if the mechanics changed so they fully matched the intent, and thus gave salvagers a nice buff? Yes, of course. Until then, the best we can do is educate players and rid them of that assumption, and the model does exactly that.
The players may be new but they are not stupid. Most of the complaints about this comes from newer players thinking they are being robbed for "their" stuff. If your "model" was working right they wouldn't even think it belonged to them in the first place.
So no...it doesn't do what it's intended to do.
Edit: And the game should slap them with the model...not you. Hence my point..it's bad game design.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:27:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 16:28:14
Originally by: HeIIfire11 The players may be new but they are not stupid. Most of the complaints about this comes from newer players thinking they are being robbed for "their" stuff. If your "model" was working right they wouldn't even think it belonged to them in the first place.
You're still confused about what the model does.
No, if every last mechanic worked completely in line with the model, then they wouldn't be confused. As it is now, however, only the totality of mechanics work that way, and that is the purpose of that model: it tells the player "this is how the game actually works and what you should expect from the game, regardless of individual mechanics".
Quote: So no...it doesn't do what it's intended to do.
It does ù you just keep misunderstanding the intention. It's an educational tool, not a design manual. Again, think of how incorrectly the Bohr model is, but how well it explains the helium atom's spectra. It teaches new players like Snake Scofield what to expect, rather than trying to deduce the whole thing from contradictory mechanics (which they most likely will fail to do anyway).
Quote: And the game should slap them with the model...not you. Hence my point..it's bad game design.
àand like I said, until the game does work like that ù at which point no slapping would be needed ù the education is needed, and so far I haven't seen any better model to do that.
Again: not even you, who dislike it so much, has been able to demonstrate a game behaviour that contradicts that mode. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:49:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Tippia ]You're still confused about what the model does.
And you are still saying that it is intended to be exactly as it is when it is infact poorly coded. It was thrown together with minimal effort to change as little as possible on the wreck mechanic..thus causing confusion. This...is all I am saying, nothing more.
It is in no way an "educational tool"..you give it way too much credit.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:56:00 -
[137]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 And you are still saying that it is intended to be exactly as it is
No, I'm not. Quite the opposite: if it were, the model wouldn't be needed. The model is there to explain, or give a short-hand for a total effect of seemingly contradictory individual mechanics.
I would dearly like to see the salvaging profession buffed through a nuber of mechanics fixes to match CCP's stated intentions.
Quote: It is in no way an "educational tool"..you give it way too much credit.
àand yet, it lets people understand what's going on. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:01:00 -
[138]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 17:05:26
Originally by: Tippia Again: not even you, who dislike it so much, has been able to demonstrate a game behaviour that contradicts that mode.
And with this you are dead wrong..everything I mentioned contradicts the fact that ccp wants it to be free for all. Everything but the fact that others can salvage it without getting concorded. If no one ever talked about this game anywhere and you were just thrown in and let loose to play, there is no way you would be able to tell that those mission wrecks don't belong to you..the wrecks and everything that comes with them.
You would see that only you can tractor beam them. You would see that your corp name is on them. You would see that only you can shoot them without getting concorded. You would see that they are a part of your mission and that you killed it and did the work. And you would see that because they can't be scanned down that you are the only one meant to get at them.
All the game shows you is that this is infact..your wreck. This is my point when I say it is bad game design.
Originally by: Tippia until the game does work like that ù at which point no slapping would be needed ù the education is needed
And with this you are even agreeing with me that it is infact lacking clarity.
Edit: And you would see that you are the only one that can abandon them..and you cant abandon anything that isn't yours. There would be no need to if it were free for all. Forgot that one.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:07:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Tippia and yet, it lets people understand what's going on.
No..you do when they come crying on the forum.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:24:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 17:25:52
Originally by: HeIIfire11 And with this you are dead wrong..everything I mentioned contradicts the fact that ccp wants it to be free for all.
And how does any of that contradict the model?
Quote: You would see that only you can tractor beam them.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", so you can't move it.
Quote: You would see that your corp name is on them.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", and where else to put the ownership info?
Quote: You would see that only you can shoot them without getting concorded.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", and you can't shoot the wreck without shooting the can.
Quote: You would see that they are a part of your mission and that you killed it and did the work. And you would see that because they can't be scanned down that you are the only one meant to get at them.
àand yet, it's obviously possible to do, and the ninja is doing just as much work as the mission runner to get the salvage. But fair enough, the model doesn't touch the environment, just the distinction between loot and salvage.
Quote: And with this you are even agreeing with me that it is infact lacking clarity.
If you had bothered to read anything I eve wrote, rather than rage about a model you never took the time to understand, you would have known this ages ago.
Quote: And you would see that you are the only one that can abandon them..and you cant abandon anything that isn't yours.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", and that this is what I abandon.
Quote: No..you do when they come crying on the forum.
Yes, that is the purpose of the model: to explain these things to people who ask.
Quote: The ones that don't cry on the forum accept that they have been "ninja salvaged" which is pretty much the same as being stolen from. And you can't steel what should be free for all.
àand yet, the wreck is obviously free for all to salvage, since nothing bad comes from it. Their perception that they've been stolen from comes from not having heard that "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is".
Quote: Like I said..the only thing supporting what you say is the fact that they can (without getting concorded) salvage the wrecks
In other words, it explains the sum total of the mechanics ù the game as a whole ù rather than the individual parts. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:40:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 17:41:02
Originally by: HeIIfire11 So it all comes down to your "can".
Seeing as how the virtual existence of such a can actually manages to explain all the oddities going on with wrecks, yes.
Quote: But lets say you are a new player and were not around before wrecks were introduced, you would know nothing of this can since the only time it is shown is to carry the loot which very well cant just go off and float around on it's own.
You would learn about it the first time you saw a wreck salvaged, either by yourself or by someone else. Also, I seem to recall that there are some odd drone ships that only leave behind cans (with worthless drone partsà not even alloys), rather than wrecks, but those might only show up in L4s, which are a bit beyond the new player's reach.
Quote: The model..for a new player is not as clear as you see it. The model does not really explain itself. If it did we wouldn't be having this discussion.
That's just because you've gone through far too much effort digging around for specific dev quotes to pick apartà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:47:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Tippia but those might only show up in L4s, which are a bit beyond the new player's reach.
So you would think yes..then explain to me why people have 2 week old players in their lvl4 missions salvaging their wrecks. Which brings me back to another argument that a player that new has not earned the right to salvage a lvl 4 mission which in some missions can bring you up to 15 million isk. But that's another argument for itself.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 18:26:00 -
[143]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia but those might only show up in L4s, which are a bit beyond the new player's reach.
So you would think yes..then explain to me why people have 2 week old players in their lvl4 missions salvaging their wrecks.
àin which case the first situation ù "you would learn about it the first time you saw a wreck salvaged, either by yourself or by someone else" ù kicks in and the new player learn about it.
Quote: Which brings me back to another argument that a player that new has not earned the right to salvage a lvl 4 mission
Sure he has. He has learned the skills to fly a good probing/salvaging ship. He has learned the skills to probe. He has learned the skills to salvage. That is all you need to earn the right to take part in the competition over salvage. It might be a bit less than what's needed to rake in the same amount through mission rewards, bounties, LP and loot, but that's the reward you get for going for an inherently competitive PvP profession, rather than one with guaranteed, non-competitive rewards. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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