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Geoff W
Caldari Fallen Angel's The G0dfathers
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Posted - 2011.06.13 00:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Geoff W on 13/06/2011 00:58:15 Edited by: Geoff W on 13/06/2011 00:57:09 Ever since i first heard about Dust i have been wondering about the effects and ease of orbital bombardment against troops planetside. i have some questions for someone in the know to answer
1. what ships will be able to strike from orbit ( a dreadnought is 3-4 km long and can be destroyed in one shot by a titan so immagine what that could do to a planet and anyone within several hundred km of ground zero / even the battleships at 500m+ would be devestating 1400mm artilery using nuclear warheads would deveatate a large area in a single volley and nuclear are supposed to be primative so railgun slugs at relativistic speeds would be even more devestating. )
2. will carriers and supercarriers be able to send down fighters / fighter bombers to assist ( again the massive yield of the warheads used in relation to planet based installations would be huge )
3. what will starships have to do to get into bombardment position ( will they have to drive off defending fleets or will they be able to hit and run even while enemy have space superiority )
4. if the battle planetside turns against your side will you be able to call down an exterminatus style strike to ensure that if you cant have the base then no-one will especially if you maintain a major presence in orbit
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Ayieka
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Posted - 2011.06.13 01:33:00 -
[2]
maybe you can orbital strike with any ship, but the size of the gun determines area of effect and damage. so like a frigate spitting at the planet would be like a mortar strike, and a dread would just be carpet bomb.
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DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2011.06.13 01:47:00 -
[3]
Just because ccp put it in a vid doesnt mean it's gonna happen. Any weapon shot from 36,000+KM (orbital range for earth-ish) will probably miss the target, it's likely that the weapons will take considerable damage passing through the atmos. On top of that if this "Feature" makes it into the game it will likely only be on the dirt side, where the game will have it's own set of balances.
----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! ! |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.06.13 01:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: DeODokktor Just because ccp put it in a vid doesnt mean it's gonna happen.
Just because CCP has it up and working on development servers doesn't mean it's gonna happen. lol
Originally by: DeODokktor Any weapon shot from 36,000+KM (orbital range for earth-ish) will probably miss the target, it's likely that the weapons will take considerable damage passing through the atmos. On top of that if this "Feature" makes it into the game it will likely only be on the dirt side, where the game will have it's own set of balances.
Low-earth orbit is like 100km, not 36,000km which is geosynchronous orbit... lol again
And we do have the equivalent of 1400mm shells hitting the earth all the time, they're called meteorites... And those will be slow, non-aerodynamic and lacking of warheads unlike what our spaceships shoot.
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Inzax
Caldari In ZAX New Eden Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:00:00 -
[5]
New ammo category with skill set?
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Discrodia
Gallente Symbiosis International Moose Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:03:00 -
[6]
I'd imagine it would be pretty focused, and not the sort of MAD-esque thing that would happen if one fired a titan superweapon at a planet. Your objective is to capture stuff, not obliterate it! =P
IIRC in the Emp. Age book a dreadnought blaster was enough to instantly destroy fortified structures and a decent area around it. The way I think of it, a frigate would be used more like an ultraheavy fighter for strafing runs, while cruisers could do pinpoint target elimination against tanks and bunkers (a-la smartbombs), and battleships could unleash saturation bombardment of large areas. Dreds would be for eliminating fortresses and the like.
Come to think of it, maybe the scale of the Dust battle could limit the size of fire support? Like, a skirmish might only rate cruiser support, while larger assaults would warrant and allow larger ships.
Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Low-earth orbit is like 100km, not 36,000km which is geosynchronous orbit... lol again
Of course, all of this assumes standard real world physics, not fishtank plot-driven physics :)
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:13:00 -
[8]
Lets see a titan go below geosync and get out (without jumping that is). Dreads would be limited too.
There's just not going to be enough speed involved for these large mass ships to get into low or medium orbits.
----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! ! |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.13 02:15:00 -
[9]
They got Antimatter so they must have antigravity too (given those flying car thingies in Amarr stations)
Originally by: Xenuria
I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.06.13 03:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DeODokktor Lets see a titan go below geosync and get out (without jumping that is). Dreads would be limited too.
There's just not going to be enough speed involved for these large mass ships to get into low or medium orbits.
Getting out of orbit would be easy. Just make sure you have a warpable on the other side of the planet.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.06.13 05:55:00 -
[11]
Originally by: DeODokktor Lets see a titan go below geosync and get out (without jumping that is). Dreads would be limited too.
There's just not going to be enough speed involved for these large mass ships to get into low or medium orbits.
If there was ever a time for a triple facepalm-Picard this is it...
You guys are playing a game about spaceships and are _THIS_ fail at orbital mechanics?
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Charles Javeroux
Gallente INTERSTELLAR CREDIT
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Posted - 2011.06.13 07:08:00 -
[12]
In my speculation, the orbit fleet would depend on the ground troops to establish a lock for orbital bombardment (ie. you would need allies on ground to tag the targets). The same things goes for ground forces to be able to target orbiting objects (you would need eyes in orbit, to tag the targets).
So all this bombarding stuff from orbit-ground-orbit, would depend heavily on close co-operation between DUST mercs and capsuleers.
Also this is the vision, got from the CCP after-hours feedback.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 07:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab If there was ever a time for a triple facepalm-Picard this is it...
You guys are playing a game about spaceships and are _THIS_ fail at orbital mechanics?
Ok.
ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Adjunta Tungsten
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Adjunta Tungsten on 13/06/2011 08:08:11 After what i've heard from his lordship our emperor, the CEO..
It seems that bombardments will be possible in both directions.. I just hope theres a limitation? I wouldn't like someone with nothing to do with the dust battle taking pot-shots for the lulz or vise versa.
Maybe there will be a Corp/party limit?
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Ford Mersombre
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:08:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Adjunta Tungsten After what i've heard from his lordship our emperor, the CEO..
It seems that in the future theres a desire for both games to be interlinked enough that a Soldier from Dust can come up to the station and talk to people on EVE walking around, and EVE able to shoot at Dust and Dust able to shoot at EVE.
I just hope theres a limitation on interaction during battles as I think it'd be spoiling the fun if someone with nothing better to do decides to start taking pot-shots at a Dust map or vise versa.
I'm all for EVE players making ammunition, weapons, vehicles and so forth for Dust though. I just hope it isnt the only way that it'll be available to people playing.
DUST and EVE players being able to interact on stations would be pretty cool. :D
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CRA5HD0WN
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tippia Ok.
fkcing win LOL
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2011.06.13 08:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DeODokktor Just because ccp put it in a vid doesnt mean it's gonna happen.
CCP already said not only will it happen, but it's already running on the test/alpha build.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.06.13 09:57:00 -
[18]
Also regarding balance of orbital bombardment, for those of you that aren't fail at orbital mechanics will realize that the ships will be in low-earth orbit rather than geosynchronous and as such will not be stationary above the target. For an earth-sized planet we're talking about once every 90 minutes or so.
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Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:01:00 -
[19]
I believe it was pointed out that things that have appeared on SiSi and in devblogs have still been pulled. (Hello, storefronts!) A lot also depends on the balance. (10MN afterburning assault frigates!)
However, I'd assume that Dreadnoughts or possibly other ships would be the EVE version of "indirect fire support". (The turrets and tanks are the heavy direct-fire support.) The best EVE weapons for bombardment, with real world physics, would likely be rocket-propelled artillery - where the fuel would be saved for the end flight - or winged sabot. Because the potential energy is enough to take the round down. Accuracy would be a problem, as would be the round burning up in atmosphere. I understand that the best possible rounds would be something along the lines of drop-shaped tungsten rounds. (Melting at 3683 K.) Artillery simply because it has the largest caliber, and therefore, the round will survive melting partially and still hit the ground, causing some huge craters. Unlike, say, antimatter rounds which would likely disintegrate in upper atmosphere and cause funny stuff to the entire hemisphere. (Solid railgun rounds would likely airburst.)
Naturally, it is important to remember that EVE is a game, so physics, most likely has no real effect, and Minmatar dreads firing nuclear bombs or even H-bombs (fusion ammo) on the field will look like a normal artillery strike instead of instantly glassing everything.
For the following calculation, I used Impact Earth: http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/
Weapon: 1000mm Dual Railgun, Tungsten ammunition Diameter: 1 m Density: 19250 kg/m3 (solid tungsten) Impact Angle: 90 degrees (straight down) Entry Velocity: 72 km/s (maximum for the simulation, likely too high, but proportional to the "artillery shell" calculations below, impact velocity on ground 38.6 km/s)
Hitting the ground, the round would release energy around 6.2 kilotons of TNT equivalent and make a crater around 175 m wide, cause a fireball just under 40 m wide.
A Moros can fire six rounds each volley.
For a Naglfar with a 3500mm firing Depleted Uranium: Diameter: 3.5 m Density: 19100 kg/m3 (uranium) Impact Angle: 90 degrees (straight down) Entry Velocity: 11 km/s (minimum for simulation - but still above what our guns can achieve, impact velocity on ground 9.2 km/s)
Hitting the ground, the round would release energy around 6.2 kilotons of TNT equivalent and make a crater around 250 m wide, no fireball due to low impact speed. One kilometer away, still a 3.0 Richter scale earthquake, air blast arrives in three seconds, breaks glass windows, 30 percent trees blown down.
A Naglfar can fire eight rounds at once.
Critique on the simulations above: The calculator is for asteroids. The drag coefficient for a round object is 0.47, whereas a streamlined round would have a drag coefficient of only 0.04, reaching much higher terminal speeds. However, as the entry speeds were absolutely too high for railguns and artillery, this would be compensated. How well the errors cancel each other is rather hard to guess.
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andeira
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:45:00 -
[20]
how about we just wait a year and see when the game comes out? -------------
Originally by: Stitcher For frak's sake, it took millions of years of evolution for that brain to get inside your skull, would it kill you to actually USE the damned thing?
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Capri Sern
Minmatar PCG Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.13 10:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: andeira how about we just wait a year and see when the game comes out?
What's the point of a forum if you can't speculate wildly and draw conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence? "There is no such thing as an effective segment of totality" Bruce Lee - the only man with a Chuck Norris Killmail |
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