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dosperado
Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
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Posted - 2011.06.13 15:49:00 -
[1]
Hey CCP,
just remove the Skill "Margin Trading" and you will remove 99 % of all market trade scam from Jita!
This skill is totally useless. If you want to set a buy order for something, u should have the ISK anyway.
So remove that skill and free the skillpoints to reallocate them. ____________________ Security Status 9.0
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Marchocias
Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:14:00 -
[2]
I disagree... It's extremely useful for margin trading. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:27:00 -
[3]
If I want to trade on margin I will want this skill. Not supported.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.13 17:33:00 -
[4]
Something being used for a scam is not reason enough to remove it ù that's like saying they should remove laser cannons because they are used to make pretty screenshots.
The skill most certainly have a use, and the way it's set up, it ensures that neither buyer nor seller gets hurt in the process.
And finally, scams are allowed in this game, so why should they be prevented, especially ones that are blindingly obvious as the margin trade scam?
So no. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.13 18:46:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 13/06/2011 18:47:22
Originally by: dosperado Hey CCP,
just remove the Skill "Margin Trading" and you will remove 99 % of all market trade scam from Jita!
This skill is totally useless. If you want to set a buy order for something, u should have the ISK anyway.
So remove that skill and free the skillpoints to reallocate them.
Not only will this not reduce attempts to scam but it will reduce sandbox type play from the market. Do we really want to remove all necessity for the buyer to beware?
I vote no.
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DetKhord Saisio
Caldari UnchainedPotential Hand That Feeds
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:02:00 -
[6]
/not supported
Also, the buy order scam can be countered by actually manufacturing the item and selling to the buy order. This tact requires pre-plannning and patience but the reward is very fulfilling.
<Nothing important to see here, move along.> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Norse'Storm Battle Group Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:17:00 -
[7]
Not supported.
Remember the adage - If it seems to good to be true, it probably is. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Retard Guy
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Posted - 2011.07.09 11:31:00 -
[8]
In all other scamming its a 2 party transaction. For example, if I buy something from someone unknowing that they switched the item, I click the button and get a lame ship. This can be considered fair, I clicked the button after all. On the other hand, margin trading exploits a part of the game that was supposed to be secure. Having a CCP sanctioned 3rd party telling you there is someone buying an item at a certain price shouldn't be gray area. There should at least be a penalty for failing at filling the order. IRL there would at least be the option for lawsuit or physical attack... we can't even see who the scammer is in eve, making this a scam without a chance of repercussion. That isn't sandbox game play, they are exploiting the market hiding behind a mechanic, and the victim never gets a chance to see the person violating them. What happens to trade when vendors put up phantom buy orders just to move there regularly priced products? |
Monstress
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Posted - 2011.07.09 12:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Monstress on 09/07/2011 12:39:22 As a margin trader with the skill trained to 5, I find it actually very useful... at margin trading. You should try it some time.
Not supported at all.
EDIT: Just noticed this got necro'd. In response to above, it's been mentioned before that a different color should be used for buy orders created by players with the margin trading skill to make it obvious to the seller - I'm not against this if it ever happened. |
Material Research
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Posted - 2011.07.09 12:47:00 -
[10]
The ones saying the skill is fine as it is are most likely the ones that use it for the exploit. Not to mention the guy a few post ago that doesn't have a clue what we are talking about here.
If CCP's market fronts you the money CCP's market needs to verify the product will be purchased as claimed. Its simply a flaw in the system, you can't loan money then let people default without repercussions. I've seen a suggestion for standings to factor in, this sounds like a good starting place.
Margin Trading needs to be fixed. |
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.07.09 13:47:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Tippia on 09/07/2011 13:49:11
Originally by: Material Research If CCP's market fronts you the money CCP's market needs to verify the product will be purchased as claimed. Its simply a flaw in the system, you can't loan money then let people default without repercussions.
Except that this is not what happens. No money is fronted; there is no loan. Quite the opposite, in fact. The way the skill it set up means that both parties are being protected from loss ù the buyer does not risk running into red, and the seller does not risk losing his goods without getting paid.
The skill simply lets you defer part of the payment until the trade actually takes place.
The only thing that's being exploited is people's greed and inability to recognise that they're paying way over market price for something they don't need. |
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.07.12 04:25:00 -
[12]
The reason that the currently Margin Trading mechanic is problematic is because it can be exploited, not because every use of it is an exploit, so a fix to the problem should eliminate the exploitive uses while retaining as much of the utility of the mechanic as possible:
Originally by: Tippia The way the skill it set up means that both parties are being protected from loss ù the buyer does not risk running into red, and the seller does not risk losing his goods without getting paid.
The reason to fix the the mechanic is because there are better ways to offer the "protection" Tippia sees. E.g., the system could:
- cause the Buy Order to be filled to the extent possible with the ISK in escrow before being cancelled;
- require enough ISK in escrow to cover at least the minimum quantity set in the Buy Order; or
- require that a Pilot or Corporation division using the Margin Trading skill have enough ISK in their wallet so that each Buy Order, considered one at a time, could be filled at any time, with any unfillable orders cancelled with a loss of Broker Fee to the would-have-been Buyer.
Each of these options maintains most of the usefulness of the Margin Trading skill, while better protecting of Sellers from intentionally false offers in the market. The problem is not Margin Trading, it is the ability granted in the current mechanism to set orders that the putative Buyer knows will not be honoured.
A RL trader making bogus order like that would find his or her trading career cut short, so why do Brokers in New Eden keep taking orders from deadbeat Pilots?
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.07.12 06:38:00 -
[13]
A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.07.12 11:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: EnderCapitalG A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.
The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.
There's plenty of scamming opportunity for scammers out there without reliance on broken mechanics... that's just weak scamming. This broken market mechanic is not a necessary feature for the existence of scamming in New Eden.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Norse'Storm Battle Group Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.07.12 13:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: EnderCapitalG A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.
The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.
There's plenty of scamming opportunity for scammers out there without reliance on broken mechanics... that's just weak scamming. This broken market mechanic is not a necessary feature for the existence of scamming in New Eden.
The only thing broken is people's inability to recognize when something is too good to be true. Unfortunately, there's not a damned thing CCP can do to fix that.
I mean honestly, if someone is paying twice the going rate for a minimum order of a million units of something, doesn't some small part of your brain go "Hey. Hey! Don't click that yet! I smell something funny!" --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.07.12 17:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: EnderCapitalG A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.
The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.
There's plenty of scamming opportunity for scammers out there without reliance on broken mechanics... that's just weak scamming. This broken market mechanic is not a necessary feature for the existence of scamming in New Eden.
Again, your problem not CCP's.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.07.13 03:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Thoraemond The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.
Again, your problem not CCP's.
To be more clear, and I'm sorry you missed my point above, the "problem" I have is that CCP is choosing to maintain a lacklustre Margin Trading mechanic rather than improving that mechanic, where there are specific and relatively-straight-forward improvements available.
While this is a problem I would like to fix, I consider the coding of game mechanics, such as this one, to be squarely in the domain of things controlled by CCP, and hence their "problem".
I have no hesitation suggesting that, as a general principle, broken or poorly-designed game mechanics should be fixed or improved. Fixing the currently-broken Margin Trading mechanic is just an example.
P.S. If you imply that my "problem" is that I was scammed by someone using this exploit, please know that such did not occur. Moreover, the only scams I have ever seen taking advantage of this exploit have only been up to the 3 or 4 billion ISK range, so even if I had fallen victim to such a scam, that loss would not be a big deal.
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TheFifteenthTry
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Posted - 2011.07.13 03:58:00 -
[18]
The reason you want margin trading is because it allows you to have many orders up at once. Some of these may not fill for months and while that happens your wallet goes up and down. If I buy a very high cost item that makes 10% or more I may not have the money to cover the rest of my buy orders but they generally won't fill. Once I sell that item I can then fill those orders. So fixing this skill is NOT needed it is actually the best skill for a market trader to have.
Whiners: Get scammed, learn lesson, move on.
This happened to me I am better off for it. Now I use margin trading legitimately to make lots of money if this skill was modified in the least it would drastically affect my fun in EVE.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2011.07.13 11:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: TheFifteenthTry The reason you want margin trading is because it allows you to have many orders up at once. Some of these may not fill for months and while that happens your wallet goes up and down. If I buy a very high cost item that makes 10% or more I may not have the money to cover the rest of my buy orders but they generally won't fill. Once I sell that item I can then fill those orders. So fixing this skill is NOT needed it is actually the best skill for a market trader to have.
An explanation of how the skill currently functions is not a reason to leave it like that; it is simply a description of the status quo. If you have read my post above, you will have seen that there are possibilities to improve the Margin Trading mechanic that retain its usefulness for traders such as you and I.
Originally by: TheFifteenthTry Whiners: Get scammed, learn lesson, move on.
I didn't get scammed and I'm not whining, but I agree with you that those who were scammed and who do nothing but whine about it are contributing little to the discussion.
Originally by: TheFifteenthTry Now I use margin trading legitimately to make lots of money if this skill was modified in the least it would drastically affect my fun in EVE.
It looks like you are failing to distinguish between (i) removing Margin Trading altogether (which I do not support), and (ii) improving how the mechanic works. If you are truly claiming that the current implementation of Margin Trading is the only possible implementation that would be useful to you, I you probably failed to understand the options for improvement I suggested.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.07.13 16:37:00 -
[20]
Again, working as intended.
Sorry that you/your brother/friend/mother/dog got scammed but welcome to Eve Online.
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.07.13 20:26:00 -
[21]
How does the seller actually lose out?
do they lose their isk? no. do they lose the goods? no.
Sell the items to someone else and profit. Unless you bought at an inflated price, which goes against the basic rule of "buy low, sell high" and means you deserve the loss.
Any situation that is "buy high, sell higher" should ring alarm bells. ______ Tippia's analysis of NEX/Incarna |
Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.07.13 22:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Glyken Touchon How does the seller actually lose out?
do they lose their isk? no. do they lose the goods? no.
Sell the items to someone else and profit. Unless you bought at an inflated price, which goes against the basic rule of "buy low, sell high" and means you deserve the loss.
Any situation that is "buy high, sell higher" should ring alarm bells.
Gold star for you.
It's really that simple. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
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