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Sister Vherokior
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Posted - 2011.06.13 20:41:00 -
[1]
I've followed the character bazaar for months in preperation for buying a few alts and retiring from trading to go pew away all my isk. In the last 30 days i've seen an absolute torrent of amarr spec'd characters rolling in for sale. I'm tempted to snap one up because they're just dropping like stones in price, but given the huge number being sold i'm wondering if there was a nerf I missed?
What happened?
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Baraka Saibot
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Posted - 2011.06.13 20:48:00 -
[2]
All the races have much nicer barbie faces, race specific bling bling and stick-on-tattoos.
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Tenzeck
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Posted - 2011.06.13 20:50:00 -
[3]
Maybe it's just that autocannons are the new pulse lasers. Lasers are like, totally 2009 and stuff.
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Abby Boline
Caldari Abysmal Bottom Line
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Posted - 2011.06.13 20:50:00 -
[4]
I'm confused about the location of this thread.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:01:00 -
[5]
RR battleships are a thing of the past
Projectile Boost moved the FOTM from lasers to projectiles.
Legion is terrible compared to the other T3 offerings. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:05:00 -
[6]
Quote: projectiles
Goin with this. And as an amarr pilot myself, i'm quite jealous.
vOv
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:08:00 -
[7]
Amarr have their strong points, but it has to be said if you want a really versatile all-round PVP race you don't have to look further than Minmatar, which also combined with Gallente have the strongest pirate ship lineup. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:19:00 -
[8]
Amarr are inflexible. Lasers are awesome. Armor is awesome. One trick ponies with a couple of oddball cousins... are not.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:20:00 -
[9]
Nothing wrong with amarr, just resurgence of shield fleets and minmatar. AHAC and sniper hac gangs are less common and shield BC gangs more common, which is where minmatars really shine.
Gallente are still rotting in ditch like they`ve been for two years for everyhing except capitals and few token ships.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.13 21:31:00 -
[10]
A few thoughts: - If its for capital pilots, they're probably offloading before the coming SC nerf. - It could be because shields have basically taken over for any sub BS fleet. This tends to make (for example) the capless, better shield tanked Hurricane preferred over the shield Harbinger, even though the Harby really is much better at applied DPS. - It could be the surge in alpha fleets, though I'm not totally sure why they wouldn't just train a really well skilled Amarr alt for projectiles in that case.
Overall: NFC. I wouldn't sell my Amarr characters for any reason. Waaaaay too awesome. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Sister Vherokior
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Posted - 2011.06.13 22:54:00 -
[11]
Rather dissapointing news, was looking forward to getting a good deal, but it seems as though paying premium for minmatar is worth it.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.13 23:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sister Vherokior Rather dissapointing news, was looking forward to getting a good deal, but it seems as though paying premium for minmatar is worth it.
Amarr is not a bad path, second only to Minmatar really (as far as purists go), especially if you are a nonconformist and think outside the box.
The biggest hurdle flying Amarr has is the distinct lack of speed. But again... think outside the box.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Valentina Valentia
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.13 23:22:00 -
[13]
Path??? what path??? the factions are in game terms totally the same - other then starting frigate skills basically (oh no how ever shall I overcome that!!!).
Faction = looks (who cares, my avatar is a ship, bodies are for Orcs!) SP = the more the better Skills = GET EVERTHING... my main is a Amarr, I trained Hulks first (Gallente, and shield tanking) then drones, then mining stuff, and had trade block all around before that for courier stuff being my first career was as a Providence pilot, and my other ship was a shuttle.
I am now into AFs and HACs and doing all the ships and weapons in the game - I can do T2s in most of the frigate sized and some cruisers, eventually it will be BS and caps all around... why do you think you have to choose,you have all the time in the world and nothing is exluded from any factions choice??
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.13 23:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Valentina Valentia Path??? what path??? the factions are in game terms totally the same - other then starting frigate skills basically (oh no how ever shall I overcome that!!!).
Faction = looks (who cares, my avatar is a ship, bodies are for Orcs!) SP = the more the better Skills = GET EVERTHING... my main is a Amarr, I trained Hulks first (Gallente, and shield tanking) then drones, then mining stuff, and had trade block all around before that for courier stuff being my first career was as a Providence pilot, and my other ship was a shuttle.
I am now into AFs and HACs and doing all the ships and weapons in the game - I can do T2s in most of the frigate sized and some cruisers, eventually it will be BS and caps all around... why do you think you have to choose,you have all the time in the world and nothing is exluded from any factions choice??
Silhouettes should be seen and not heard.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Mona X
Caldari Missions Mining and Mayhem Merciless.
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Posted - 2011.06.13 23:31:00 -
[15]
It's only a week. :P
Join Eve-Online, meet interesting people, grief them.1 |
Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.06.13 23:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Val'Dore ... think outside the box.
I too, would like to know more about this box. I mean, the outside of it. What are we talking about again?
vOv
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.14 02:08:00 -
[17]
-SC Nerf inbound maybe? There's speculation. I dont think that its been confirmed anyway. The Nyx and the Aeon were good SC. I'm pretty sure the Nxy was more popular. This is bad for Amarr.
-Sniper HACs are dead. Sometimes FCs try to reanimate them. Its creepy watching the twitching corpses amble along for a short period of time before going still again. Zealot was a great sniper HAC. Mach HACs fill that role somewhat. 1400mm Arty Machs and the rest of the fleet is support for keeping light **** off. Amarr don't have much of a place in Mach HACs. This is bad for Amarr
-AB HACs are on life support. AB HACs are a great counter when you know the enemy is bringing a BS fleet. AB HACs are horrible when the enemy know you are bringing them. A properly FCed Hellcat fleet can do in AB HACs. AB HACs have some difficulty roaming because running away from the blob at half a klick isn't really that great. The proper application of EWAR seems alot more devastating to an AB HAC fleet then to other kinds of fleets. They're still useful but have moved from mainstream to niche. The zealot is an AB HAC mainstay and this is one of the few pvp environments a legion might be sighted. This is bad for Amarr.
-Thundercat Fleet These are more of a novelty than anything else. Like Mach HACs the main ship is incredibly expensive and even a few losses can make a battle where you held the field a financial loss. These fleets will probably only be fielded by the elite PVP groups with onl a few pale imitations. If you aren't the best its alot better to have mistakes not represent horrible losses. Nobody cares if someone ****s up in a drake or when giving a drake orders. This illustrates how lacking the T3 Amarr ship is. A bunch of legions might manage to be called a failcat fleet. T3 balance is horrible for Amarr.
-Drake Fleet is dead. Shield BC fleet is alie and well. Shield BC are great roaming ships. Lots of DPS, very fast and agile and pilots can lose one without breaking a sweat. Shield BC gangs are made up with Drakes, Hurricanes, and then whatever random BC people decided to bring. The Harbinger is seen as a slower Hurricane with cap dependent guns and avoided if possible. The Prophecy is the one BC that can't be shield tanked. This is bad for Amarr.
-Armor BC fleets are like unicorns. People speculate about them but noone has ever seen one. This is bad for Amarr.
-Hellcats are still a good fleet. Abaddons with tackle support and Gaurdians. This is the pureist form of the Amarr one trick pony. Sitting behind a bulky armor tank and shooting things. This is good for Amarr.
-Of the traditional solopwnmobiles the only Amarr one is the Curse. It doesn't even use lasers. The projectile buff covered the solopwnmobile lineup with duct tape. This is very bad for Amarr.
-Alpha Fleet is still kicking. Its a shield fleet. This isn't good for Amarr. Gives Hellcats soemthing to shoot at. Hellcats don't seem weaker or stronger than Alpha Fleet.
Don't buy an only Amarr speced pvp alt unless you are ((A) going to use it with an FC who regularly fields Hellcats and/or AB HACs AND (B) are going to buy another alt to fly another race) OR ((B) Don't mind putting slightly subpar bastard shield tanks on things so you can participatein the other PVP activities.)
While Caldari have a few very nice ships I recomend not getting a Caldari only pilot. Caldari/Gallente, Caldari/Minmatar, or Caldari/Amarr would all be more useful than sticking to the weak pure Caldari ship lineup.
Galente have a subpar ship lineup but they have a much larger number of ships than Caldari that are 'ok,' 'meh,' or just 'not bad.' They can find a home in almost any kind of fleet but the only time they will field welcome is when bringing the long points of the lachesis and the Arazu.
Minmatar are FOTM and can do almost everything well.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.14 02:13:00 -
[18]
Just to clarify the Caldari ship lineup of standout ships is: Drake/Tengu/Falcon The other ECM boats aren't bad but not too exciting. The frigates are workable. Weak Hybrids cripple half the ships. Large missiles aren't particularly appealing for pvp in most applications.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.14 02:33:00 -
[19]
Wow, that's a very 0.0 centric viewpoint. Most of your anti Amarr arguments seem almost totally irrelevant for low sec/WH small gang PVP. But hey, lots of people have to be into that blobbing thing or it wouldn't be so common. /shrug -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.06.14 03:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 14/06/2011 03:16:31 Not to pretend that I know anything about recent developments in pvp (I don't), but my understanding is that lowsec is even more shield/mobility centric than nullsec. So if half of what Hiro was on about is close to accurate, that doesn't say much for amarr sub-capital pvp.
vOv
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Sister Vherokior
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Posted - 2011.06.14 03:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita -
Good lord, that's a wall of text. Thanks for the analysis though, very revealing for someone who's never really been in the fleet doctorine loop.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.14 03:37:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/06/2011 03:39:03
Originally by: Judicator Saturnius
Not to pretend that I know anything about recent developments in pvp (I don't), but my understanding is that lowsec is even more shield/mobility centric than nullsec. So if half of what Hiro was on about is close to accurate, that doesn't say much for amarr sub-capital pvp.
Wait what? His entire post revolved around Sniper HACs, Thundercats, Hellcats, Draek Fleets, and Alpha fleets. Those concepts NEVER existed in low sec - and most of them can't exist in low sec. Sentry guns and small gang sizes are too strong of a limitation for them to really work. Really, the only really meaningful thing that got said was that the shield cane is better than the cap dependent shield harby.
Ed: And while Minmatar having the 'best' BC is nice (though I contend this title belongs rather firmly to the Draek), it hardly invalidates the much harder hitting Harbinger.... especially given the prevalence of shield tanking. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Valentina Valentia
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.14 03:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Val'Dore Silhouettes should be seen and not heard.
I resent that! I had a face, it was removed and I can't make one as nice + I hate the idea of having a body... >:O
... *shrugs and walks away*... I used to be so beautiful... *sniffle*
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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.06.14 03:42:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 14/06/2011 03:44:43 Liang, I was responding in conjunction to both of your posts. You said his post was very null-centric. I inferred that you meant there might be more amarr ships flying about lowsec. I found that to be a dubious assumption.
Coincidentally, I would certainly agree the drake is at least as popular and effective as the hurricane.
vOv
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2011.06.14 04:09:00 -
[25]
Probably because all I see lately is drakes, ecm, canes, supercarriers...
--signature-- My latest pvp video: Link |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.14 04:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Wow, that's a very 0.0 centric viewpoint. Most of your anti Amarr arguments seem almost totally irrelevant for low sec/WH small gang PVP. But hey, lots of people have to be into that blobbing thing or it wouldn't be so common. /shrug
Well you get 500 on 500 in blob fleet actions. And you get maybe 20-20 in lowsec and WH. The absolute great majority of my lowsec experience has been 5 or less. I'd make a guess that more people participate in blob warfare, have blob warfare on their mind rather than small gang lowsec stuff.
Amarr doesn't fare all that well in lowsec tbh. Being plated and trimarked leads to less escapes and less targets you can catch, sentries remove a lot of the dedicated smaller tackler ships and logistics are fairly rare.
Honestly, in lowsec, I see the majority of gangs heavy with shield BCs, with the :DRAEK: being king and the Hurricane being queen. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.14 04:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Judicator Saturnius
Liang, I was responding in conjunction to both of your posts. You said his post was very null-centric. I inferred that you meant there might be more amarr ships flying about lowsec. I found that to be a dubious assumption.
Hmmmm... a couple comments: - I'm not arguing about relative population density... I'm what I'm saying is that Amarr aren't really gimped in low sec. They do just fine. - I'm not going to argue that there's more Harbies than Canes - that would be patently false. But otherwise I'm not really seeing any real lack of Amarr ships in low sec (comparatively speaking). I think its more the ubiquity of Tier 2 BCs (read: Draeks and Canes) that causes the impression than anything else. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.14 05:16:00 -
[28]
Well if there is a 500vs500 fleet fight in 0.0 everytime there is a 20vs20 fight in lowsec then theoretically 1000 pilots would care about the ins and outs of 0.0 pvp for every 40 that cared about lowsec. I'm pretty sure that most of the market would be driven by those 1000 pilots as well which is an assumption I made when discussing "Why arent Amarr pilots in high demand?"
I don't particularly beleive thats the case. 500vs500 fleet fights aren't that regular although I would argue that 0.0 sees just as many fleet fights as lowsec. I will concede that 0.0 is more blobby and uses a different set of tactics than lowsec. Personally I spend most of my time in 15-30 man fleets. Some people call us the blob but I really don't feel any guilt about roaming with an average of 20 people.
Lowsec is a different can of worms than highsec. With smaller fleet sizes ranged setups aren't as valuable. It can take a small ranged fleet a long time to chew through someone's tank during which they are more likely to be able to dock or jump out. With smaller fleet sizes people are more willing to field bulky armored battleships because the chances of those BS getting run over by overwhelming numbers is much lower.
I've seen several distinct aproaches to PVP in lowsec. The first is using light fast ships to travel quickly and search for targets of opportunity, often off gate. Assault frigates, vagabonds, cloaky recons. The second is to pvp in a small area with a number of scout alts and an armor BS fleet supported by armored cruisers like the proteus. The third is the gatecamp with a dedicated RR group and armored sensor boosted arazu/rapier type ships for tackle. Then there are the faction warfare kind of fleets that look like 0.0 fleets fielded by fail alliances.
Amarr have nice BS. I personally don't use them for small BS gangs because of their slot configurations. They favor pure gank and tank setups without as many utility slots.
An RRBS fleet with small numbers needs the battleships to be able to do many things. DPS/RR/Tank/Neut/Web/Scram/TP/Ewar. A small gang RRBS fleet needs its BS to be swiss army knives so they can deal with all the the situations being slow and few brings. There arent 20 other guys each of whom is performing a specialized role. In those cases only the Armageddon even has a utility high and all the Amarr ships feel to have to few midslots. The Tempest can neut with an RR fit and has plenty of ewar. As a pilot who can fly both Minmatar and Amarr BS with T2 fittings I feel that bringing an Amarr ship to an RRBS fleet is not in the best interests of the fleet.
IF the fleet already has dedicated logis and tackle how is it any different than what I said about the Hellcat fleet? Abaddons are the best ships to bring to a Hellcat fleet. Abaddons are the best ship to bring to a short range armor BS fleet with dedicated Logis and tacklers. Tempests aren't as good. Megathrons aren't as good. Like I said about the Hellcat fleet, "This is good for Amarr."
If I had to say anything about small RRBS and straight up BS fleets I would say, "This is good for Gallente."
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.14 06:42:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Justification for 0.0 centric thinking
I don't really care man. I was just saying its not the only kind of PVP in Eve. Also, its not blobbing unless its bigger than the biggest reasonable gang you think you will face... and then you need to lighten up so you can get more fights.
Quote:
Lowsec is a different can of worms than highsec. With smaller fleet sizes ranged setups aren't as valuable. It can take a small ranged fleet a long time to chew through someone's tank during which they are more likely to be able to dock or jump out. With smaller fleet sizes people are more willing to field bulky armored battleships because the chances of those BS getting run over by overwhelming numbers is much lower.
I think you too quickly discount the power of ranged setups/weapons. Its not at all uncommon that the fight is fairly fast moving gangs where range is an important attribute of dealing damage, and nor is it uncommon to start a fight at 40km as you jump with someone. I've found that lasers are typically better damage dealers than either projectiles or blasters because of this.
Quote: A small gang RRBS fleet needs its BS to be swiss army knives so they can deal with all the the situations being slow and few brings. ... If I had to say anything about small RRBS and straight up BS fleets I would say, "This is good for Gallente."
Drones are generally pretty ****ty in low sec. They die to sentry fire way too easily, and thus you not only normally lack large parts of your DPS but also its expensive. This is really bad for Gallente, because it greatly hinders the effectiveness of the only good Gallente RR ship (the Domi). I contend (as someone that can fly all the battleships) that I'd rather fly a Geddon or Abaddon for RR gangs in low sec. Well, or the 3 RR Typhoon. :swoon:
-- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.14 07:40:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Hiroshima Jita on 14/06/2011 07:45:49
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Justification for 0.0 centric thinking
I don't really care man. I was just saying its not the only kind of PVP in Eve. Also, its not blobbing unless its bigger than the biggest reasonable gang you think you will face... and then you need to lighten up so you can get more fights.
The op asked why Amarr alts are less valuable now. There are more pilots in 0.0 therefore the factors of 0.0 are a heavier weight.
If the main factor was that all the highsec carebears had been using Apocs but now the projectile buff made the Tempest a better ship I would be explaining the intricacies of highsec lvl 4 mission running asw best I knew how.
WE ARENT DISCUSING SOMETHING LIKE "Why does Amarr suck now?" although you can never discount the possibility of a stealth whine. If that was the case there might be an argument against 'Amarr suck.' by pointing out they do well in lowsec. I'm not seriously contesting Amarr doing well in lowsec. I'm seriously contesting that Amarr lowsec perfomance has a significant impact on the demand for Amarr characters given Amarrs abilities in lowsec.
Also when you outnumber the enemy you expect to encounter Im pretty sure the proper tactic is 'bait' rather than 'bring a weaker fleet' although you want to make sure you have good tackle. That I would say is blobbing.
Originally by: Liang Nuren I think you too quickly discount the power of ranged setups/weapons. Its not at all uncommon that the fight is fairly fast moving gangs where range is an important attribute of dealing damage, and nor is it uncommon to start a fight at 40km as you jump with someone. I've found that lasers are typically better damage dealers than either projectiles or blasters because of this.
40km is mid range. Start pushing 100 and we can talk about long range. Lasors are the best turret. I feel no need to contest this either. The optimal range on scorch is great at its tracking and DPS. Are you trying to tell me that people do use sniper hac or sniper bc fleets in lowsec? Because on one hand you're telling me I'm out of touch not talking about lowsec but on the other hand you're implying that an old 0.0 type fleet that isn't very popular anymore that I talked about is seeing use in lowsec. Or are we talking about sniper BS fleets? I mean those happen in 0.0 too on occasion but not enough for me to feel the need to mention them.
If we really want to talk about sniper BS fleets my favorite model is the one used by Burnt Eden. I think it would do ok in lowsec. Its uses nightmares which require Amarr skills.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Drones are generally pretty ****ty in low sec. They die to sentry fire way too easily, and thus you not only normally lack large parts of your DPS but also its expensive. This is really bad for Gallente, because it greatly hinders the effectiveness of the only good Gallente RR ship (the Domi). I contend (as someone that can fly all the battleships) that I'd rather fly a Geddon or Abaddon for RR gangs in low sec. Well, or the 3 RR Typhoon. :swoon:
I don't like the Abaddon in RRBS because of its slot layout. I guess you could remove a turret to fit an RR. Will withdraw the Gallente comment after further thinking about how sucky blasters are.
On a note that is more related to the thread than being upset that your favorite playground wasn't discussed by someone else who lives somewhere else and does something else and didn't really say anything bad about pvping in lowsec: Would you recomend at this time buying an Amarr specced character with no cross race skills to pvp with anywhere given the bargain basement price?
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