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Miranda Stargazer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:18:00 -
[1]
This thread isn't about whether microtransactions are good or bad, but the fact AUR does not add anything to Eve that does not already exist in the current market (bar a more complicated exchange system).
What do you mean? At the base level, PLEX are purchased by RL money transactions.
Plex are sold in game for ISK, this is no different to converting them to AUR, only the rate at which they are exchanged.
Currently 1 Plex = ~380m, this value will increase/fall based on the amount of PLEX entering the market (through RL money transactions) and the demand for those PLEX - the more people buying them, the higher the price will go and vice/versa.
If 1 Plex can be broken down into a number of AUR, then 1 AUR will be worth a % of said PLEX.
i.e. if 1 plex = 10 AUR then in similar conditions to our market now, 1 AUR is worth ~38m isk. This value will rise and fall with the exchange rate of PLEX - ISK
Therefore, every item that CCP sells for AUR will have an isk value.
My point is since everything will continue to have an isk value, why add AUR in the first place - surely the simpler, less complicated and easiest way to implement all this is for CCP to put the npc sell orders on the market for ISK rather than AUR.
So am I missing something or is this simply an unnecessary complication?
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:20:00 -
[2]
Because buying a paint job with a plex is a bit silly.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:22:00 -
[3]
If its just ISK sales then it generates no extra income for CCP, as you dont need a PLEX to earn isk
But you DO need a PLEX to get AUR
Sleuthed that for you - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN! |
Rex Liberium
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:25:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Skippermonkey If its just ISK sales then it generates no extra income for CCP, as you dont need a PLEX to earn isk
But you DO need a PLEX to get AUR
Sleuthed that for you
Yep and if more plex leave eve economy for aurum, plex prices will rise, because there will be a demand for plex->aurum and plex->game-time, making it more worthwhile to sell plex for isk and getting CCP more monies in the proces.
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Miranda Stargazer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Skippermonkey If its just ISK sales then it generates no extra income for CCP, as you dont need a PLEX to earn isk
But you DO need a PLEX to get AUR
Sleuthed that for you
You can buy PLEX with ISK - therefore you don't need to spend RL Money to obtain AUR. The extra revenue for CCP will only come as a result of PLEX prices rising to a point where people feel a necessity to buy more PLEX.
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rex Liberium
Originally by: Skippermonkey If its just ISK sales then it generates no extra income for CCP, as you dont need a PLEX to earn isk
But you DO need a PLEX to get AUR
Sleuthed that for you
Yep and if more plex leave eve economy for aurum, plex prices will rise, because there will be a demand for plex->aurum and plex->game-time, making it more worthwhile to sell plex for isk and getting CCP more monies in the proces.
And making the profit margin and opportunities for your garden variety RMTer reduced?
Hmmm, i like it - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN! |
Miranda Stargazer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Rex Liberium
Originally by: Skippermonkey If its just ISK sales then it generates no extra income for CCP, as you dont need a PLEX to earn isk
But you DO need a PLEX to get AUR
Sleuthed that for you
Yep and if more plex leave eve economy for aurum, plex prices will rise, because there will be a demand for plex->aurum and plex->game-time, making it more worthwhile to sell plex for isk and getting CCP more monies in the proces.
This is my point entirely.
AUR is serving no function in the process that ISK does not already.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Miranda Stargazer You can buy PLEX with ISK - therefore you don't need to spend RL Money to obtain AUR. The extra revenue for CCP will only come as a result of PLEX prices rising to a point where people feel a necessity to buy more PLEX.
You Fail Economics Forever A PLEX only exists once CCP got its money already. How much a PLEX costs in ISK doesn't really concern CCP beyond maximizing the numbers of PLEX being used up, and for that, a LOW ISK PLEX price is best, not a high one. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:33:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 15/06/2011 13:33:59
Originally by: Miranda Stargazer You can buy PLEX with ISK - therefore you don't need to spend RL Money to obtain AUR.
You don't, but someone does. All PLEX start with someone buying one with real money, even if it's later traded to someone else in return for ISK. All AUR originate from PLEX, which originate from real money, so all AUR comes from real money too, indirectly. Just not necessarily your money.
In other words: You can buy an AUR/PLEX using ISK. This allows you to buy things with AUR/PLEX without spending your own real money. But where did the AUR/PLEX come from? Someone else bought it with real money. nullnull
My sig is not my sig. |
Miranda Stargazer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:38:00 -
[10]
Akita, Your either are misunderstanding me or simply arguing another point.
Plex via TC's are bought for RL money.
Plex are sold on the market (they have an isk value based on volume vs demand).
CCP are intending to add AUR so that we can break down PLEX to a fixed number of AUR to buy novelty items.
When this happens, one presumes the demand for PLEX will go up as there are other things to do with PLEX than spend it on game time. People will be buying more PLEX with ISK.
Following on from this, as the rate/cost of ISK per Plex rises, it follows that people will buy more PLEX (this is where CCP will generate their revenue).
If I can convert my PLEX into a fixed number of AUR or not, the item i buy in the novelty store will have a direct ISK value.
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Irulan Corinno
Caldari 714th SQN - Snowflakes
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Miranda Stargazer Akita, Your either are misunderstanding me or simply arguing another point.
Plex via TC's are bought for RL money.
Plex are sold on the market (they have an isk value based on volume vs demand).
CCP are intending to add AUR so that we can break down PLEX to a fixed number of AUR to buy novelty items.
When this happens, one presumes the demand for PLEX will go up as there are other things to do with PLEX than spend it on game time. People will be buying more PLEX with ISK.
Following on from this, as the rate/cost of ISK per Plex rises, it follows that people will buy more PLEX (this is where CCP will generate their revenue).
If I can convert my PLEX into a fixed number of AUR or not, the item i buy in the novelty store will have a direct ISK value.
Ehm no, if you sell vanity stuff for ISK people just grind a few more missions to get it. CCP gets nothing extra then.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Miranda Stargazer Akita, Your either are misunderstanding me or simply arguing another point.
You still fail at basic economics.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.15 13:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2011 14:05:33
Originally by: Miranda Stargazer Akita, Your either are misunderstanding me or simply arguing another point. Plex via TC's are bought for RL money. Plex are sold on the market (they have an isk value based on volume vs demand). CCP are intending to add AUR so that we can break down PLEX to a fixed number of AUR to buy novelty items. When this happens, one presumes the demand for PLEX will go up as there are other things to do with PLEX than spend it on game time. People will be buying more PLEX with ISK. Following on from this, as the rate/cost of ISK per Plex rises, it follows that people will buy more PLEX (this is where CCP will generate their revenue). If I can convert my PLEX into a fixed number of AUR or not, the item i buy in the novelty store will have a direct ISK value.
/facepalm
CCP cares how many PLEX are destroyed (either by being physically destroyed in "accidents", being smashed into AUR, or by being applied to account time). If they're not "destroyed" fast enough (if people buy GTCs to be turned into PLEX or PLEX directly with RL cash but do not use them up fast, stockpiling them instead for later use), that's an "in the books" financial liability, and it's actually a BAD thing in the long run, not a good thing. So, again, what CCP cares most about is PLEX CONSUMPTION rates, not PLEX purchase rates. If consumption rates go up a lot, purchase rates will eventually go up too, but if only purchase rates go up without a corresponding increase in consumption, in the long run, they're screwed.
Purchase and stockpiling without a significant consumption while ISK prices keep escalating is just a disaster waiting to happen, an accidental, involuntary and undesirable mini-pyramid-scheme-like scenario with bad side-effects for CCP eventually.
If ISK prices of PLEX go up, less people apply them to account time (because they can no longer afford to), and the ISK cost of AUR-purchased items also goes up, so LESS of them are being purchased via ISK, so less PLEX are being smashed into AUR. Basically, consumption rates go down. Which, again, I have to remind you, is a BAD thing. There is absolutely no chance in hell to have more PLEX used up when a PLEX costs a lot of ISK compared to when a PLEX costs very little ISK.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 15/06/2011 14:14:40
Originally by: Akita T *snip*
Also that CCP earns an extra $2.50 for every plex they sell (if the plex is used for game time) so they do have an interest in selling them compared to getting "normal" subscription.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:17:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Akita T on 15/06/2011 14:18:41
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Also that CCP earns an extra $2.50 for every plex they sell (if the plex is used for game time) so they do have an interest in selling them compared to getting "normal" subscription.
Only when purchased directly from CCP. If converted from GTCs sold by retailers, not so much. Afterall, the retailers need to make a profit too. EDIT : Hmm, I wonder, how large is the cut of an official GTC retailer out of the ~35 monetary units ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Akita T EDIT : Hmm, I wonder, how large is the cut of an official GTC retailer out of the ~35 monetary units ?
Akita T's GTC shop.com???
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:27:00 -
[17]
well i wouldnt mind paying what was it 300k isk of aurum for a paint job? Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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Sharon Anne
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:31:00 -
[18]
I wonder if AUR were made indestructible, as in when in cargo and your ship pops its always dropped, would that make the AUR the new gold standard? Just a thought.
The general epidemic of rectal-cranial inversion |
vr0p
Gallente Symbiosis International Moose Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:38:00 -
[19]
Why not just destroy PLEX, and have monthly subscriptions cost X Aurum, which would be bought and sold like PLEX are (and all existing PLEX converted into Aurum)? To an economics failure like me, having this currency exchange between four different currencies (real life money, isk, aurum, plex) seems uselessly complex. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:46:00 -
[20]
Just a quick though on topic in a different direction...
The exchange rate for PLEX to isk is determined by the player driven market.
AFAIK, the exchange rate for PLEX to AUR is currently unknown.
It is possible that CCP want to control this exchange rate so that the RL cost of MT isn't tied to the isk (player driven) market. By having the PLEX to AUR exchange rate controlled by CCP instead of players, they can ensure that the RL cost for a given MT doesn't fluctuate with the price of PLEX in isk.
If the cost of MT went too high, isk wise, no one would buy them. This way they can help their adoption by keeping their RL price low, without messing with the PLEX/isk market.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Iosue AFAIK, the exchange rate for PLEX to AUR is currently unknown.
It is, 1 plex = 3500 AUR
Originally by: vr0p Why not just destroy PLEX, and have monthly subscriptions cost X Aurum, which would be bought and sold like PLEX are (and all existing PLEX converted into Aurum)? To an economics failure like me, having this currency exchange between four different currencies (real life money, isk, aurum, plex) seems uselessly complex.
Agreed. The thing though is that AUR can't be converted back to PLEX so CCP's certrain of the profit made in the current construction.
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Isidore Tailleur
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 14:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Iosue Just a quick though on topic in a different direction...
The exchange rate for PLEX to isk is determined by the player driven market.
AFAIK, the exchange rate for PLEX to AUR is currently unknown.
It is possible that CCP want to control this exchange rate so that the RL cost of MT isn't tied to the isk (player driven) market. By having the PLEX to AUR exchange rate controlled by CCP instead of players, they can ensure that the RL cost for a given MT doesn't fluctuate with the price of PLEX in isk.
If the cost of MT went too high, isk wise, no one would buy them. This way they can help their adoption by keeping their RL price low, without messing with the PLEX/isk market.
They would still have control since the could control the ISK price of the items that would otherwise be sold for AUR. It is exactly the same thing.
This AUR thing is totally ****ing pointless. If I ever buy some of that crap I am gonna buy the PLEX with ISK first anyway. It is just unnecessary and annoying...
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Xercodo
Amarr Daj'Juntar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 15:01:00 -
[23]
ISK can be generated out of thin air (bounties for example)
PLEX cannot, somebody, somewhere down the line had to have bought it for real money
but PLEX on their own aren't small enough to be traded for things like these
-------------------------------------------------- The drake is a lie |
Miranda Stargazer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 15:01:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Miranda Stargazer on 15/06/2011 15:01:26
Quote: PLEX consumption is what really makes CCP keep the money, while PLEX purchases only "loans" money to CCP at a zero interest rate, and as such, CONSUMPTION rates are what really matters. With AUR, they introduced yet another way to consume PLEX. Consumption rates are higher when ISK cost of PLEX is lower.
/facepalm
Your stating things which are consistant with my point.
PLEX purchasing means CCP already have the money. At this point Time Cards have been converted, CCP has the cash in the bank.
Yes the play time is no yet 'dead' because its not been converted (to game time or otherwise), and I agree with what your saying.
However, What you are forgetting or just not mentioning is that PLEX prices are not CCPs only revenue stream.
Another major revenue stream for CCP is from subscriptions - people who play via card payments etc, this has a correlation to the market value of PLEX
If PLEX prices fall (in your ideal CCP world), yes consumption of PLEX will increase, but there is a detriment to that.
The detriment is that people cancel their subscriptions/extend their subscriptions with gametime and begin to play for free.
Don't believe me? what happens if PLEX prices fell to 10m - to do this the market would have to be saturated with a huge volume of PLEX on the market.
Would people continue to buy PLEX? for 10m isk, i doubt it, but i'm sure we can agree that the volume people bought would decrease.
Would people continue to pay $15 or whatever via card to play eve? again i'm sure some people would be too lazy to cancel but again I think we'd agree many would temporarily cancel until they found it difficult to fund via ISK.
What happens then is that PLEX prices would rise, until people begin to buy PLEX or resubscribe, at which point prices would begin to stabalize.
But none of this contradicts what i've said or really argues for it.
The discussion really and going back to the OP is what does selling items via AUR achieve that ISK doesn't?
If a novelty item would cost 380m isk, what happens? Those with ISK can buy it for 380mISK Those without ISK can buy a PLEX, convert it into 380m ISK and use that to fund their purchase. Those with patience will simply grind the ISK.
If a novelty item costs 3500 AUR, what happens? Those with ISK can buy a plex, convert to AUR and buy the item for free. Those without ISK can buy a PLEX, convert it to AUR and buy the item Those with patience can grind the ISK, buy a PLEX, convert it to AUR & buy the item.
In scenario 1, 380m isk is gone from the economy In scenario 2, 3500 AUR are gone from the economy
Both hold the same value as 1 PLEX
The price of PLEX will continue to fluctuate based on supply/demand.
People who can't afford with ISK to by novelty items will buy them via a RL PLEX purchase, those who can afford to buy them with ISK won't.
Q. Will more/same/less PLEX be purchased if items are sold for AUR? Q. Will more/same/less PLEX be purchased if items are sold for ISK?
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Isidore Tailleur
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 15:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling Agreed. The thing though is that AUR can't be converted back to PLEX so CCP's certrain of the profit made in the current construction.
Well, yeah. If people that loose interest in the game will bring some AUR out an not all ISK. Anyway they bring goods out of the economy as well as money so that don't do anything to prices.
I think some marketing dude has thought way to much about finding a way incorporate something to stimulate PLEX purchases into Incarna and came up with this ad-hoc solution. Yes, some ppl may buy an extra PLEX to get access to the AUR. But some people will not buy them with USD but with ISK will drive up the PLEX price and cause some other dude to un-sub one of his 11 accounts.
Also what about making EVE easier to grasp for new players to make them stay around ehh? Lets add another silly abbreviation for something that can only be used for something very specific ohh that makes the game more straight forward.
I think they have shot themselves in the foot. Well not that bad maybe in there pinky toe...
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Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
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Posted - 2011.06.15 15:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Isidore Tailleur They would still have control since the could control the ISK price of the items that would otherwise be sold for AUR. It is exactly the same thing.
While they can set the isk price of the MT item, if they cannot control the PLEX to isk exchange rate, they cannot control the RL cost of the MT item, unless they constantly change the isk price of the MT item.
If they set the isk cost of a paint job to 1 million isk, the RL cost of that paint job would depend on the exchange rate of PLEX to isk. Ask PLEX goes down in isk value, the cost of that paint job in RL currency goes up. At 1 PLEX to 100 million isk, the cost of the paint job is 1% of the RL cost of the PLEX. As isk value of PLEX goes up, the RL cost of the paint job goes down.
With the current state of the PLEX market, they prolly don't want their MT items to jump arount in RL cost, especially not downwards.
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Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:00:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Drykor on 15/06/2011 16:04:25 To the OP: I don't think the effect of buying this with isk would have as big of an effect on the plex market as it would with Aurum, as are a lot of people that simply would not touch plexes to get isk to buy the new stuff. So in your proposed situation, a plex is never needed, they just run missions, get isk and buy whatever. This does not really make isk worth significantly more, though it probably will have an effect. So yes, plex price may and probably will increase a little but not nearly as much as in the 'current' situation where a plex WILL be consumed no matter what.
To Akita: IMO the stuff about plex consumption is fairly irrelevant here. Overall there will be more plexes sold as there are simply more uses for them. And I don't think the percentage of plexes being consumed would change greatly in this new situation. --- Drykor - AHARM |
Katra Novac
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:13:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Katra Novac on 15/06/2011 16:16:27
Have not been really following this topic, so will Aurum actually be ingame or will they only go against your account for use in the shop, like what Sony does? You can also sometimes get Sony ones via promotions.
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Morganta
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:24:00 -
[29]
god people, its a bloody sink for PLEX
the market is saturated with PLEX and as it is PLEX is a pretty weak investment in terms of its RWC value.
380m for more than the cost of a monthly sub (even though its game value is equal to a monthly sub) 380m is chump change to the average player what with the current hyper inflation of the market.
So introduce a crap item that buys nothing of consequence that eats up the bloat on the PLEX market and gets people a better return on their real cash outlay.
I seriously do not understand what the big frigging problem is.
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I'thari
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akita T Hmm, I wonder, how large is the cut of an official GTC retailer out of the ~35 monetary units ?
my guess would be 5... at least during that price increase several years ago (one that came along with "industry standard 60d GTC") it was mentioned that since retailers sell GTCs at $15 a month (more or less), CCP must sell those to retailers for less, thus getting less money from people paying with GTCs than from people paying with credit cards. And CCP decided to increase GTC price a bit to "even things out", so to speak.
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