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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:04:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Glad to help.
IN the end, I guess its for the court to decide (on the specifics). If CCP wants to make a big deal out of things.
I think the only questionable issue is the definition of what "knowledge" is.
EFT is not an MMO, that is crystal clear. Internet browsers are not an MMO, crystal clear. EveMon is not an MMO, crystal clear.
So they are safe, the only issue is "publishability" which pivots on "knowledge".
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Zag'mar Jurkar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:07:00 -
[62]
Can't wait to see you making it and see what happens, either it being you in court or you running free.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:08:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Can't wait to see you making it and see what happens, either it being you in court or you running free.
Or just building apps for learning and fun? Awesome concept.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:09:00 -
[64]
The court will make CCP win, laws or not.
You are the small fry, powerless and with less money / lawyers / bribed witnesses than the strong ones.
That's 101 law for you, in a lot of states. Hope you live in some other.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:10:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 22:10:44
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The court will make CCP win, laws or not.
You are the small fry, powerless and with less money / lawyers / bribed witnesses than the strong ones.
That's 101 law for you, in a lot of states. Hope you live in some other.
Not always.
EU != USA :)
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:14:00 -
[66]
EFT doesnt compete with the current in game fitter. Why not?
Because the in game fitter is a feature of the client that you always get. EFT is only going to be useful if you have client, so in terms of the market they are not competing.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:15:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 22:16:42
Originally by: Ghoest EFT doesnt compete with the current in game fitter. Why not?
Because the in game fitter is a feature of the client that you always get. EFT is only going to be useful if you have client, so in terms of the market they are not competing.
I don't believe you can divide up the product, I beleive you have to take the product as "ADVERTISED" as a whole. A holistic product view..: What is eve? It is an MMO, a game universe.
What is EFT? It is certinaly not a MMO game universe. - That would be false advertising and misrepresentation of the product.
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Sciencegeek deathdealer
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:28:00 -
[68]
CCP is a private entity, and you agreed to a EULA and TOS when you signed up. They can terminate your account at any time, for whatever reason.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:29:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer CCP is a private entity, and you agreed to a EULA and TOS when you signed up. They can terminate your account at any time, for whatever reason.
Yes both sides can, so we are now onto the legality of EULA's and "changing" contract terms?
I can argue those too.
Feel free to start a thread on that so we can battle :)
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Sciencegeek deathdealer
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:44:00 -
[70]
I'm not going to sit here and argue with you, the fact of the matter is that CCP can deny you service any time they want, in order to play the game. It's not that complex. Key points:
Quote: REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY To play EVE, you must: (i) purchase a license to the Software (this may be available with the purchase of a boxed version of the Game and/or from the EVE web site http://www.eveonline.com); (ii) establish online a valid account (an "Account") and keep that Account active by paying the subscription fees on a timely basis; (iii) obtain and maintain your own Internet access (Internet access is required to play EVE; CCP is not responsible for your access to the Internet); and (iv) comply with the EULA.
If you do not comply with the EULA, then you cannot play, it is a requirement to use the software.
Quote: By clicking the "ACCEPT" button below, and confirming your acceptance by clicking the "CONFIRMED" button (or if you bypass or otherwise disable the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons, and still install, copy, download, access or otherwise use the Software or the Game), you accept the terms and conditions in the EULA.
You agree to these terms every time you log in, if you do not agree to them, then you are not permitted to use the software.
Quote: CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons. If the amendment alters a material term of the EULA that is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below.
CCP may change the agreement at any time.
Quote: You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.
You cannot reverse engineer the system, and you agree to this contract every time you log in. If you do:
Quote: CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section.
Fly safe.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:45:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer I'm not going to sit here and argue with you
You just did.
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:47:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer I'm not going to sit here and argue with you
You just did.
No he didn't. He posted a few facts.
Arguing would be if he actually responded to you to counter what you have said... like what I'm doing.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:47:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Sciencegeek deathdealer I'm not going to sit here and argue with you
You just did.
No he didn't. He posted a few facts.
Arguing would be if he actually responded to you to counter what you have said... like what I'm doing.
I win.
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:49:00 -
[74]
if you are going to use it, at least avoid the wikipedia page
Quote: Article 6 Decompilation 1. The authorization of the rightholder shall not be required where reproduction of the code and translation of its form within the meaning of Article 4 (a) and (b) are indispensable to obtain the information necessary to achieve the interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, provided that the following conditions are met: (a) these acts are performed by the licensee or by another person having a right to use a copy of a program, or on their behalf by a person authorized to to so; (b) the information necessary to achieve interoperability has not previously been readily available to the persons referred to in subparagraph (a); and (c) these acts are confined to the parts of the original program which are necessary to achieve interoperability. 2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall not permit the information obtained through its application: (a) to be used for goals other than to achieve the interoperability of the independently created computer program; (b) to be given to others, except when necessary for the interoperability of the independently created computer program; or (c) to be used for the development, production or marketing of a computer program substantially similar in its expression, or for any other act which infringes copyright. 3. In accordance with the provisions of the Berne Convention for the protection of Literary and Artistic Works, the provisions of this Article may not be interpreted in such a way as to allow its application to be used in a manner which unreasonably prejudices the right holder's legitimate interests or conflicts with a normal exploitation of the computer program.
______
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:16:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Miilla
Pretty much means we can reverse engineer eve to interop with it under EU law. CCP can do nothing without breaking EU law of which Iceland is an Observer.
No news for german developers. Disassembling/reverse engineering is already allowed in Germany for the stated reasons. And it doesn't matter where the software originates from.
That's why I always laugh at those "You're not allowed to disassemble, reverse engineer ... " paragraphs in common software EULAs. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Zag'mar Jurkar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Can't wait to see you making it and see what happens, either it being you in court or you running free.
Or just building apps for learning and fun? Awesome concept.
I meant if you wanted to publish it for everyone's use.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:31:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 23:32:01
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Can't wait to see you making it and see what happens, either it being you in court or you running free.
Or just building apps for learning and fun? Awesome concept.
I meant if you wanted to publish it for everyone's use.
I guess my code COULD get stolen :( *g*
At the present time I am focusing on "app components" so no need to worry about their stinky license.
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Sciencegeek deathdealer
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:33:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween
Originally by: Miilla
Pretty much means we can reverse engineer eve to interop with it under EU law. CCP can do nothing without breaking EU law of which Iceland is an Observer.
No news for german developers. Disassembling/reverse engineering is already allowed in Germany for the stated reasons. And it doesn't matter where the software originates from.
That's why I always laugh at those "You're not allowed to disassemble, reverse engineer ... " paragraphs in common software EULAs.
You can legally reverse engineer the game, but if you don't agree to the EULA, you cant play the game. So yes, you can reverse engineer the game to interop with any application you want, however you cant play the game. CCP can still ban you, and anyone who uses the software, because agreement to the EULA is required to play the game. There is no exception. Read my post.
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Sciencegeek deathdealer
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:41:00 -
[79]
I may be wrong, convo me ingame.
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Zag'mar Jurkar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:59:00 -
[80]
Something we shouldn't mention is if making a Web service of some sort from the API and people would use that service to access the API, if it would be prohibited, but my first guess is that it would be.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:00:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Something we shouldn't mention is if making a Web service of some sort from the API and people would use that service to access the API, if it would be prohibited, but my first guess is that it would be.
Now we are down to arguing over the definition of "application".
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Zag'mar Jurkar
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:06:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Something we shouldn't mention is if making a Web service of some sort from the API and people would use that service to access the API, if it would be prohibited, but my first guess is that it would be.
Now we are down to arguing over the definition of "application".
3 2 1 FIGHT!
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:07:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween No news for german developers. Disassembling/reverse engineering is already allowed in Germany for the stated reasons. And it doesn't matter where the software originates from.
you may, IF you need to for interoperability AND the information required has not been made available AND you don't use it to breach copyright. ______
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:08:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Miilla on 17/06/2011 00:08:23
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Something we shouldn't mention is if making a Web service of some sort from the API and people would use that service to access the API, if it would be prohibited, but my first guess is that it would be.
Now we are down to arguing over the definition of "application".
3 2 1 FIGHT!
This is exactly what we will ( should ) be doing with the license terms, picking them appart and getting clear definitions of pivotal terms such as we did this thread.
They can be a deal maker or breaker.
Then again, just make your apps sit on the Internet Browser then register IE or Firefox as your app :)
CSS anybody? :)
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Zag'mar Jurkar
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 17/06/2011 00:08:23
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar Something we shouldn't mention is if making a Web service of some sort from the API and people would use that service to access the API, if it would be prohibited, but my first guess is that it would be.
Now we are down to arguing over the definition of "application".
3 2 1 FIGHT!
This is exactly what we will ( should ) be doing with the license terms, picking them appart and getting clear definitions of pivotal terms such as we did this thread.
They can be a deal maker or breaker.
Then again, just make your apps sit on the Internet Browser then register IE or Firefox as your app :)
CSS anybody? :)
I think we will need to wait for it to be official and licenses terms to be exposed before tho, but I'll keep that in mind.
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Sciencegeek deathdealer
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:12:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Originally by: Hel O'Ween No news for german developers. Disassembling/reverse engineering is already allowed in Germany for the stated reasons. And it doesn't matter where the software originates from.
you may, IF you need to for interoperability AND the information required has not been made available AND you don't use it to breach copyright.
-_-
I guess I'm just talking to a wall. Back to coding my servers then.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.17 09:49:00 -
[87]
Iceland isn't in the EU*, its in the EEA. As such EU directives do not have to be incorporated in the law of Iceland. The rest of your argument is invalid.
*the chances of Iceland joining the EU are in fact zero. For them to join they'd have to compensate the UK, Netherlands and various other countries that got screwed when Icelands banks went up in smoke. Wisely (IMHO) they've decided to tell foreign govts that they will NOT be held personally liable for the failure (fraud really) of commercial banks. The Greeks will follow very soon then the whole house of cards will collapse.
tl;dr Iceland isn't in the EU, doesn't want to be in the EU and has ZERO chance of being accepted in the next decade.
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Shpenat
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:51:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Shpenat on 17/06/2011 11:53:42 To make a things more clear: Miilla is right. you are free to reverse engineer Eve client and make any application you want and SELL it. Hence selling of the bots and macros is legal. On the other hand access to the CCP data is subjected to the terms of service and hence you must not USE the bot or macro.
Same with API. you are free to make any program that uses the API data dump. But to access the APi you sill need to have licensed application. Hence using Firefox or Internet Explorer to access API will be illegal as neither Mozilla nor Microsoft will get the license from CCP.
EDIT: typo
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:58:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Ghoest on 17/06/2011 11:58:54
Originally by: Shpenat But to access the APi you sill need to have licensed application. Hence using Firefox or Internet Explorer to access API will be illegal as neither Mozilla nor Microsoft will get the license from CCP.
Actually this is not clear. You may in fact be allowed as an individual to access your OWN API through any sort of APP if its on your own machine.
But if they do try to stop this then you are right and they would have to also stop the common browsers.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Cheekyhoe
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:10:00 -
[90]
ITT, Oh look I think I found a loophole in the law that allows me to do something.
Try it i dare you.
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