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Lamda Korr
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2012.09.11 21:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have a miner buddy that I want to follow around on security duty. This is especially important when she starts hauling minerals around. The problem is that I don't have a ton of experience and no experience in PVP. I've search through the guides but there is just too much information. So here are my questions:
- What is a good beginner ship and equipment to protect against player pirates? (~30/40m budget atm) I guess the main goal is to get them out... not necessarily kill the pirate. Not yet anyways.
- Are there certain skills that I can't live without?
- I'm aware I can warp to 0m and jump... are there other tactics that will help our survival?
- What should my miner/hauler buddy have (skills,modules)
- Is there any other questions you think I might be missing?
At the moment I'm running in a Osprey with Light Missils and shield modules and an after burner. My buddy just has cargo expansions. |
CorInaXeraL
Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz
188
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Posted - 2012.09.11 21:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
In Hi-Sec, you won't be doing much. Gankers will Alpha the daylights out of your buddy before you can do anything. Protection is all on them.
Lowsec, you'll want something that can lock down and shut down threats while keeping itself alive. But to effectively fly something like that you're a bit limited by having lower SP. In truth, I would venture into cloaky ships, a Pilgrim or Curse, maybe, or a T3 with similar setups. |
Lamda Korr
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 21:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'll look up both "Alpha" and the ships you mentioned. I'm assuming you mean I will be cloaked. If that's the case what is my tactic? Cloak until the hauler gets attacked but then surprise gank them?
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
649
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Posted - 2012.09.11 21:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lamda Korr wrote:I'll look up both "Alpha" and the ships you mentioned. I'm assuming you mean I will be cloaked. If that's the case what is my tactic? Cloak until the hauler gets attacked but then surprise gank them?
Pretty much.
Alpha just means doing enough damage that there's no time to respond. In high sec, the response comes from NPCs which will nuke anyone attacking, so if a ganker wants to get the hauler, there's really nothing you can do.
In low sec, the safest support you can likely provide is a cloaky ship that can help the hauler escape (even if you don't get any kills with it). A Falcon comes to mind here. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
326
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 22:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is generally very little you will do as a solo pilot to "defend" a hauler.
As others have said that in HS you cannot do much. Gankers will be able to one shot the hauler before you can do anything.
In lowsec the best method is simply to be a cloaky scout. You jump ahead to check for threats on the other side, letting your pilot know when it is safe to jump.
if most industrials are actually attacked, they will die before you can react.
The only other thing would be to use an ECM ship, like a rook or falcon. With these you could try and jam out enemies on a gate letting the industrial through. But you'd have to be able to tank the gate guns. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
206
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 22:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lamda Korr wrote:I have a miner buddy that I want to follow around on security duty. This is especially important when she starts hauling minerals around. The problem is that I don't have a ton of experience and no experience in PVP. I've search through the guides but there is just too much information. So here are my questions:
- What is a good beginner ship and equipment to protect against player pirates? (~30/40m budget atm) I guess the main goal is to get them out... not necessarily kill the pirate. Not yet anyways.
- Are there certain skills that I can't live without?
- I'm aware I can warp to 0m and jump... are there other tactics that will help our survival?
- What should my miner/hauler buddy have (skills,modules)
- Is there any other questions you think I might be missing?
At the moment I'm running in a Osprey with Light Missils and shield modules and an after burner. My buddy just has cargo expansions.
Logistics ship, like a schimi or Onerios cap stable with AB on, orbiting at 7500 with reps on the protected, also Booster skills to boost his armor/shields.
Constantly Dscanning and warning your buddy over eve voice that you picked up something like a few destroyers inbound.
This will get very boring after no more then 3 days and the cost of a logistics ship, not to mention the time that it takes to train a cap stable character, not realistic. |
Pipa Porto
895
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 22:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
For a Hauler gank, which is done on gates where the damage from Gate guns limits the effectiveness of any suicide gank type other than an Alpha gank (doing a whole lotta damage with one shot and only expecting to get one shot off), there's not much you can do other than web your friend to limit their exposure to scanners and gankers. I suppose a logistics ship might help if your timing ends up perfect and their timing's not quite right, but it's a long shot.
For protecting a mining ship in a belt, a Tornado running 650mm ACs will do enough damage to destroy enough catalysts fast enough that a reasonable gank squad won't end up killing the mining ship. A blackbird running Gallente Jammers (maybe 1 or 2 Minnie) and a stack of medium ECM drones on the mining ship will also do wonders, jamming out the gank ships. Basically, you lock the gank ships up as they land and start firing/jamming as soon as they go GCC. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
37
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Posted - 2012.09.11 22:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Damn, no wonder so many haulers get ganked. Nothing he can do???
#1 Make sure your hauler isn't carrying billions more than it's worth. Make a few trips to minimize the guarantee of a good drop in comparison to the ships you need to sacrifice in high sec to gank it. The loot fairy can be cruel so a freighter with 2 billion in loot isn't that great of a target considering the amount of alpha ships you need to guarantee the kill.
#2 If you are in the same corp you can fire mods at your buddy with no repercussions. Web him. Spend the money you have on a faction web to reach as far as possible with it and put it on a really fast frigate with a sensor booster. You'll end up moving him so fast you'll have to lag behind at certain points because of the aggro timer. With 2 or 3 corpmates you can make the trip really fast. (not for low sec docking or jumping blind into gate camps)
#3 If you're talking low sec use a transport ship and a scout to make sure there are no bad camps in the route. If you don't have the skills for a transport learn the cloaky warp trick and scout. Once you know there aren't any camps the web trick works here too but I wouldn't suggest the faction jobber at first.
#4 Don't attack low sec camps after they attack your hauler. If the hauler isn't built right for the occasion it's dead and you'll probably die, too. If it isn't a cloaky transport it shouldn't even be near a camp. If the way is shut find another way or wait....or learn how to bust a camp.
#5 Make insta-warp spots from the stations you intend to use.
#6 Don't haul stuff during war. |
Diarca Elsman
tech-legion AAA Citizens
1
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Posted - 2012.09.12 03:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you are talking about hisec, you don't protect the miners by shooting down the ganker. You protect them by just being there and letting any would be gankers know that they won't be able to get any loot out of it. If they loot the wrecks they get pvp flagged for your fleet. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
60
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Posted - 2012.09.12 03:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
The answer is Black Bird.
It is your best prayer of saving a hauler getting shot at.
Logi comes 2nd to this ship but in low sec moves it's good to have 2 ecm and 1 logi running with you.
Odds are you will still end up dead in high sec but some chance is better then no chance. |
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Dystopia Arkaral
test and tag
11
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Posted - 2012.09.12 04:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Other option might be a dual web rapier to get the ship into warp faster. Gives the people looking at your cargo less time to decide if its worth the gank or not. Also gets you to the end faster |
Pipa Porto
897
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Posted - 2012.09.12 04:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Diarca Elsman wrote:If you are talking about hisec, you don't protect the miners by shooting down the ganker. You protect them by just being there and letting any would be gankers know that they won't be able to get any loot out of it. If they loot the wrecks they get pvp flagged for your fleet.
No, they don't. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 05:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Diarca Elsman wrote:If you are talking about hisec, you don't protect the miners by shooting down the ganker. You protect them by just being there and letting any would be gankers know that they won't be able to get any loot out of it. If they loot the wrecks they get pvp flagged for your fleet. No, they don't.
Yeah, isin't ship wreck blue like abandonded loot?
Highsec - tell your hauler pilot to fit a damn tank. Buffer tank, not active tank. Train support skills to make buffer tank better. And don't haul more than the cost of a ship capable of blowing the hauler up.
Lowsec - don't ask me, I'm a filthy rotten carebear.
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Lamda Korr
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 06:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thank you for your feedback. From the sound of it there is a ton of things to do and NOT do. I might be better off learning the ropes with a corp rather than us trying to duo everything. |
Sturmwolke
276
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 06:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Way too many vague questions, while I understand it makes perfect sense to anyone unfamiliar with EVE, they're perplexing to long-time EVE players. Understand a few things :
- It's is a long term game with no end goals (except on what you decide) and you *will* encounter long periods of boredom. As such, players tend to manage their playtime as efficiently as possible or make it as easy as possible. Running escorts or bodyguard for routine hauling jobs gets old very fast, as it's neither effective nor great way to spend your time online. Fix the root problem, not the symptom : non-AFK, reasonably tanked hauler and do not haul more than 50-100mil worth of goods in a T1 hauler, have insta-warp exit bookmark from trade stations.
- Learn how successful highsec ganks are accomplished - tactics (bumping, scout scanner etc.), gank fleet composition (typical gank ships), numbers (which vary depending on system sec), favourite gank systems (Niarja pipe, Uedama pipe, all trade hubs), quiet times (typically late US TZ, early EU TZ) .... and many others. With this picture, you will know what to expect and how to deal with it when the time comes.
- If you lack the skills or infrastructure, then don't try to do everything yourself (for the short-term). Instead, do something which you're good at, example getting isk from mission running and using it to pay for public services being offered by other players. Always evaluate the time you spend to generate isk vs the time you waste that generates nothing. For hauling, the most well-known atm are Red Frog Freight (which also spawned Black and Blue Frog services for lowsec/null and high-value respectively) and probably Push Industries as well (though I haven't personally used their services).
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Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
87
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Posted - 2012.09.12 07:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lamda Korr wrote:Thank you for your feedback. From the sound of it there is a ton of things to do and NOT do. I might be better off learning the ropes with a corp rather than us trying to duo everything.
this.
have fun and good luck finding the right bunch of people to hang out with. they can make or break eve for you.
"Gotta spend money to make money" "A fool talks, a wise man listens" "He who doesn-Št wanna listen, talks the most"
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Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
696
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 07:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
I can't think of any situation you could be a body guard in eve in general, scout? yes Logi to help them survive longer? sure but there will probably be very few times you are orbiting your bro and a guy warps in to try and kill him and you actually fight and kill the person first. |
Backfyre
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 12:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
1. Watch your loot to EHP ratio. A destroyer in hisec can dish out 5000 damage before getting concorded.
2. Tank the hauler. Replace some of those cargo expanders with a DCU, plates and a passive explosive hardener.
3. As a "guard", you can slightly improve a hauler's tank against alpha with shield and armor warfare links. These are not active in warp so you must play "leap frog
4. Always jump to zero. Never autopilot. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
152
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 13:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
As others have said about alfa strike. Any T1 hauler can be popped in a single shot by a tornado with a full rack of 1400mm arttys. The key is, at least in high sec, to keep your cargo value low enough that is not worth the loss of the tornado. Once they fire it is only a matter of seconds before CONCORD shows up and pops them. There is nothing you can do to protect a T1 hauler. It is all on the hauler pilot to avoid being an easy profitable target.
In low and null there is no CONCORD so there is nothing to stop a Ganknado or pretty much any ship or gate camp from pretty much insta popping any T1 indy. there is nothing you can do fitting wise to give a T1 hauler more ehp than a poorly fit cruiser. I have yet to see a T1 hauler fit that hits 10,000 ehp without totally gimping cargo space. Only hope there is to scout ahead for him and tell him when it is clear to jump. But even then there can be a pirate cloaked off the gate waiting for an easy target. T2 haulers are much better. A blockade runner is almost ungankable once you know how to fly it properly. but they are only good for at most 10,000m3 of cargo. A deep Space transport can be good as they can get near battleship level ehp and have natural +2 warp strength. These can be fit very tanky with a couple of extra warp stabs and still have a decent cargo. However if you hit a organised gate camp kiss your 100m transport good bye. I have gotten through gate camps with a DST when they were not expecting me to have +4 warp strength but it is a big risk. A camp of only 2-3 ships is generally not a problem though.
As far as protecting miners. Since the buff mining ships are much tougher. T1 barges are still very easy to gank but are not a big loss for the miner and worthless as far as loot/salvage goes for the ganker. these are mostly ganking for fun. Exhumers however now take some planing to successfully gank. personally I have several Kill mails from my macks not only surviving gank attempts but getting credit for the kill. you can fit a mack for max yield and still get over 20,000 ehp with good skills and the right implants(I fit 3 active hardeners and one passive resistance amp in the mids). Cargo expanders do nothing for mining ships now. the ore hold is unaffected. They are a total waste. for a max yield fit I run a ice harvester rig and a overclocking rig. this lets me fit two mining upgrades and have enough left for a good tank.
For a pure tank fit I would recommend an EM rig and a shield extender rig. then put a damage controller and reinforced bulk heads in the lows, and as much shield hardeners in the mids as you can fit. you will find if it takes more than one ganknado or 5-6 destroyers to gank you, most gankers won't bother. It just costs them to much. Keep in mind though no ship is ungankable. freighters with over 200,000 ehp get ganked if their cargo is worth the risk. Some gankers fit passive targeting modules so they can target and scan you without you even knowing. |
Obsidiana
White-Noise
185
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 15:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Down the line, you should get a Skiff for mining. Fit well, it can easily get over 100k EHP. The ore hold is respectable and the speed is amazing, letting you get out faster if needed. |
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
140
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Posted - 2012.09.12 15:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Well in hi sec your only real defence is against those who are already outlaws, in which case a fast locking jammer (griffin) can completely ruin their day. The chances of you remaining alert through an entire mining op waiting on a gank that probably wont happen is rather slim though. ECM is a great defensive tool for escorting generally though, especially for a low sp player. Blackbird and griffin are your friends. You can even pre-emptively suicide jam a likely ganker if its really desperate.
On the other hand in unsecure space a scout is what will save your friend, so you need to train towards cov ops. Combine the two and you are basically a falcon pilot and that is pretty much the best protection one guy can give. |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
99
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 17:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lamda Korr wrote:I'll look up both "Alpha" and the ships you mentioned. I'm assuming you mean I will be cloaked. If that's the case what is my tactic? Cloak until the hauler gets attacked but then surprise gank them?
You want to run "protection" for the guy and you don' t even know what Alpha is? Wow... I have a suggestion: go back to missioning. :) If your buddy is ganked there isn't a damn thing you can do except get to his & the attackers cargo first (fit a couple T2 tractors). Maybe web him off-gate to get him into warp a little faster, but that's about it. |
Huttan Funaila
222 EVE 2 2 2
13
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Posted - 2012.09.12 17:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
For a good video on how the "cloaky warp trick" combination works, check out this video from Eve University. It takes practice to get right, so you'll want to set up a ship (any will do) until you can do it automatically before doing in under pressure.
Logistics (think of it as a "healer" class found in other online games) is a skill path that takes months to be able to fly the current Logi ships (Scimitar, Basilisk, etc). The winter updates will add some of the logistical bonuses to frigates and T1 cruisers so as to make it something that a player can do in less than 6 months. A simple low-skill logistical ship is commonly referred to as a "POSprey" (a play on the ship commonly used - Osprey - and what it usually is aimed at healing - a POS).
When hauling lots of loot, have a scout. One of the techniques used to pop freighters is to use 2 teams, one on each side of a jump gate. The first team blows most of the shields and armor away, while the team on the other side finishes off the freighter with one non-combatant who loots & scoots with what drops.
When leaving stations, you are already moving at top speed, so you *could* warp away, and many folks do exactly that. However you still have to align to the new heading and that gives folks more than enough time to lock and pop your ship. Instead, set up bookmarks ahead of time about 200-400km outside of the major stations you'll likely use. Use a smaller ship with a MWD and just cruise until you are a suitable distance away. Generally, stations squirt you out in a cone thats about 15 degrees, and if your bookmark is straight out from the station, you get squeezed out and aligned at the bookmark, so you may warp away before enemies can lock and shoot. My advice is to set up your own bookmarks, not use corporate ones. |
Lamda Korr
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2012.09.12 17:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thanks for this video and the info. All the scouting suggestions are starting to make sense.
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Celgar Thurn
Department 10
54
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Posted - 2012.09.12 17:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lamda Korr wrote:I have a miner buddy that I want to follow around on security duty. This is especially important when she starts hauling minerals around. The problem is that I don't have a ton of experience and no experience in PVP. I've search through the guides but there is just too much information. So here are my questions:
- What is a good beginner ship and equipment to protect against player pirates? (~30/40m budget atm) I guess the main goal is to get them out... not necessarily kill the pirate. Not yet anyways.
- Are there certain skills that I can't live without?
- I'm aware I can warp to 0m and jump... are there other tactics that will help our survival?
- What should my miner/hauler buddy have (skills,modules)
- Is there any other questions you think I might be missing?
At the moment I'm running in a Osprey with Light Missils and shield modules and an after burner. My buddy just has cargo expansions.
Hmmm. The details of your operation and questions are somewhat vague but I will give you my opinion :
1) Profit. By having a ship trying to defend other ships in a fleet is at best lessening and probably halving your profitability. In high sec it almost certainly won't save your mining vessel. Don't do it! 2) Don't bother mining in low sec. There is additional risk and with the current mineral prices it just plainly isn't worth it. Tbh I'll be surprised if anyone is seriously mining there nowadays. For nul sec you have to be well set up. You won't be well set up. No offense intended. 3) You don't state what hauling vessels you are using. Mammoths or their racial equivalents don't really cut the mustard. Any serious miner will have access to their own or a corp freighter (Fenrir etc.). Alternatively use Red Frog Freight whom I have used in the past and heartily recommend. Watch the values and don't make your hauler stand out. 'Pinatas' will get blown up. 4) Regarding mining locations don't mine in Caldari space. All the mining vessels are better now. Pick one and fit as much tank as you can. You want 20,000 ehp minimum really. Find a quiet system/s to mine in. Systems with no stations in it are often best but you have more hauling time then. Watch local channel all the time and investigate all visiting pilots. Mark up other miners and obvious anti-pirates as neutral contacts. High sec isn't as dangerous as some will tell you it is. Low and nul is far more dangerous. That's about all I think for the moment. |
Lamda Korr
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 17:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Celgar Thurn wrote:You don't state what hauling vessels you are using.
She has a coveter and I have a badger. (To make things easier I'm talking about two of my personal accounts. I have a minor which I put all my ISK into to get the coveter. I didn't have much left over for better combat/hauling ships).
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stoicfaux
1571
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 18:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lamda Korr wrote:I have a miner buddy that I want to follow around on security duty. This is especially important when she starts hauling minerals around. The problem is that I don't have a ton of experience and no experience in PVP. I've search through the guides but there is just too much information. So here are my questions:
Have your miner buddy fly a Retriever. They're pretty resilient nowadays and have huge ore bays.
A fully gank catalyst can put out 566 DPS and at a max of 20s in 0.5 space before concord shows up that's 11,320 in damage. An untanked Retriever has 9,643 EHP against Void ammo. Add on a Damage Control II and three Core Defense Field Extender Is and you have 16,960 EHP against Void. Add two Reinforced Bulkhead IIs and a Invulnerability Field II and you're up to 23,535 EHP against Void ammo.
Worst case, fly a Procurer which has 21,214 EHP against Void out of the box. Getting a 50,000+ EHP tank out of it is easy. It may "only" have room for 12,000m3 for ore, but hey, how much can your hauler carry?
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Pipa Porto
917
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 21:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ave Kathrina wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Diarca Elsman wrote:If you are talking about hisec, you don't protect the miners by shooting down the ganker. You protect them by just being there and letting any would be gankers know that they won't be able to get any loot out of it. If they loot the wrecks they get pvp flagged for your fleet. No, they don't. Yeah, isin't ship wreck blue like abandonded loot?
No. A ship's wreck is owned by the person who was last flying the ship. This means that if you steal from it, you get aggro flagged to that player and their corp. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 10:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Ave Kathrina wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Diarca Elsman wrote:If you are talking about hisec, you don't protect the miners by shooting down the ganker. You protect them by just being there and letting any would be gankers know that they won't be able to get any loot out of it. If they loot the wrecks they get pvp flagged for your fleet. No, they don't. Yeah, isin't ship wreck blue like abandonded loot? No. A ship's wreck is owned by the person who was last flying the ship. This means that if you steal from it, you get aggro flagged to that player and their corp.
Right, so its the ganker's ship wreck that gets blue'd ?
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
167
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fleet has no rights over cans, its corp that does it.
When a suicide gank occurs the gankers wreck will be blue and free for anyone to take from without flaging, the ganked ship will belong to the corp of the pilot, thus someone from the same corp can shoot the gankers looter if they come in and loot it. Of course this may delight the gankers if they loot with a pvp ship and thus get to kill the guard as well. |
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Metal Icarus
Endless Destruction Against ALL Anomalies
282
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Posted - 2012.09.14 18:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
a disposable black bird is always a great thing to have when protecting an indy. |
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