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Destructo Wisen
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Posted - 2011.06.20 01:16:00 -
[1]
I too want a bot free Economy. I understand such a thing is nearly impossible to obtain, what could stop botting?
Solution: A Capche, say if you get "Report Botter, gold seller, etc" It will send a Capche to that player, they have to enter a 6 digit/letter code to continue playing. Now you have 2-3 Chances to enter the correct code.
This will only apply to anyone in High-Sec. Sometimes, an annoying security question every now and then, can help more than it hurts. It won't hurt your gameplay for the fact that it helps the economy.
If you fail to enter the correct code you get a temp 15 minute ban and you have to relog in via Capche to continue. Possibly add a "3 strikes you're out" rule if you fail to enter the capche, then you get a day ban and put under investigation or something.
You can only ping an account every 30 minutes that way players don't get bombarded with CAPCHE requests.
Even better ---------- If you fail the Capche twice you can be marked as killable. lol buddy in corp came up with that.
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Velator Nador
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.06.20 02:07:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Velator Nador on 20/06/2011 02:12:53 It would have to be like once an hour. And it's still going to be bad to be creating false positives. I would go away while I'm mining because.. well the world makes you do it. Then you get that and you are banned... What happens when they say 5 of these and a permaban. No amount of Chances to be permabanned can avoid banning players who are simply going AFK while playing. Then you band probably 50% of the normal populace.... I don't think that would help the game. 8)
It would be too annoying to players who are just tired and go afk. You do that alot mining because you have to play doing almost nothing for long periods of time. It goes against the psychology of a person who has to mine. It attacks the natural player first and formost. It's like carpet banning players to get handfull of wrongdoers. Won't work.
In the end if the game becomes a lot more complicate they could just make it so macros are a part of the game... They were along time ago in muds. In fact they will be needed if games every become complex enough. That is what macros in games were originally. They are a part of AI and other aspects of game development. Just wait till they are good again...
Besides they could probably more easily make the needed in the game than get rid of them. They would just have to change the economy and what it takes to make stuff, or whatever else, and design the game around them. It can be done.
The whole anti macro thing is just a demonization concept. It's idiotic and because the internet has been flooded by endless people who never had to really learn to program properly and understand game developtment or other programming the proper way. (Before the modern attachment of ignorance as the way to program with OOP. Which isn't proper for OOP either.) There realy isn't a problem with macros. Just lazy game developers. If they knew enough math or had the skills they could deal with it in a jiffy one way or the other.
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Destructo Wisen
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Posted - 2011.06.20 02:17:00 -
[3]
That's the complete idea. You're missing the point, of the purpose of mining. Not just an "AFK" task, it's a profitable economy task.
Mining is what makes the Market go round, thus creating a profitable profession that is in demand and has a purpose.
What's the point of playing if you're AFK. That doesn't make sense and provides reason for bots to exist. In short, Learn to Play?
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.20 03:28:00 -
[4]
I can just imagine the griefing in PvP that would rsult from this. ..at least until enough people got banned.
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Destructo Wisen
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Posted - 2011.06.20 03:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mars Theran I can just imagine the griefing in PvP that would rsult from this. ..at least until enough people got banned.
I could imagine, but could you discuss along with the idea of how to change it to a compatible way that would be useful and non-griefing?
For example, the last action within 30 minutes would have to include actually mining an asteroid? I'm sure there could somehow be a script that would check this as a past action.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2011.06.20 04:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Destructo Wisen I could imagine, but could you discuss along with the idea of how to change it to a compatible way that would be useful and non-griefing?
For example, the last action within 30 minutes would have to include actually mining an asteroid? I'm sure there could somehow be a script that would check this as a past action.
Trouble is, your idea to solve the issues with your orininal idea, (quoted) means the game has to keep a timer for every player to see how long it was since they last mined an asteroid. Now I am not a programmer, but this seems to me like it would add extra work for the servers. ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.20 04:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Destructo Wisen I too want a bot free Economy. I understand such a thing is nearly impossible to obtain, what could stop botting?
Everytime I "new" idea for ending mining bots gets posted here.. I hold my breath and cross my fingers that maybe we'll get to hear a new and orignal idea. but so far... no one ever comes up with anything new or interesting.
I agree botters should be stopped somehow; Captcha is stupid.
CCP has their own version which is plentiful sabatours and other rats that break your targets.. and there is nothing you can do to stop them before you lose your targeting and have to re-target. You can send your drones at them as soon as they are in range but your targets will be gone before you can make the kill. If you bot and tank these rats you will not be mining for more than one cycle unless you have a macro that also targets, kills the rats, and retargets rocks. I'm not going to discount this completely as there are mission bots out there (I estimate more mission bots than there are miners in eve by the way).
Captcha is just another pain in the butt for miners that don't bot. I hate captcha on websites..half the time you can't even read the text to enter it. Many times I have had to just give up on activity on the web where I couldn't figure out and input the mindless words or not even real words to continue.
And a ban for what..not being able to copy some barely legible text? If you make the text too legible, of course, some bot maker adds a way to scan the text with ocr to contiunue.. so it stops real miners due to its cumbersome nature and you have only the botters left.
This is not a solution I like.. at any rate it certainly isn't a new idea as it is suggested about 3 times a day here..mainly by people who don't mine.
I mine every day; I do house work at the same time... heaven forbit that I don't get back to my computer before your idea marks me a botter.. Though I'm not usually afk for long, stuff happens; sometimes taking laundry out of the dryer and hauling it to the computer to fold takes longer than I expect and my miners shut down..this is hassle enough with out also missing some immersion killing code that will ban me or get me shot at by non-suiciders while I'm gone.
and can you imagine the hassle this could pose for multi-boxers?
If you think you have found a bot there are mechinisms already in game by which you can kill them if it bothers you that they are mining.
There has to be a better way.
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.20 04:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 20/06/2011 04:45:15
Originally by: Destructo Wisen That's the complete idea. You're missing the point, of the purpose of mining. Not just an "AFK" task, it's a profitable economy task.
Mining is what makes the Market go round, thus creating a profitable profession that is in demand and has a purpose.
What's the point of playing if you're AFK. That doesn't make sense and provides reason for bots to exist. In short, Learn to Play?
AFK is not breaking the EULA...botting is. Are we now going to ban people for not being at their keboard? That is a dumb idea.
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shady trader
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:11:00 -
[9]
The idea is not new. It has been suggested several times this year (and in the years gone by).
If you do a search on Catcha you find all the old threads about it, you will also find why it will not stop the bots. Catcha's are known pretty much useless now as bots can solve them better the some humans. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Resender
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Posted - 2011.06.20 08:28:00 -
[10]
It won't work, a better solution would be to ask a random Y/N question at the log in screen. Or some other mechanism. Like when we had to redo our characters there was a temporary drop in mining bots around where I mine.
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.20 10:27:00 -
[11]
If I may add, it won't solve any problems. Why? Oh, it's simple: the majority of macrominers are 0.0 players, so even if you fix hisec bot mining, it will only increase the influx of raw minerals from nullsecs. After a while, prices will return to normal, and the only persistent result you'll get from this is that hisec will be a lot more dependant on nullsec supplies. ___ Remove insurance payouts for concord kills Make wardecs expensive and declinable Make SS go -1.0 per offense Remove L4 agents from hisec Allow non-corp hisec POS and moon mining |
Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.06.20 13:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga If I may add, it won't solve any problems. Why? Oh, it's simple: the majority of macrominers are 0.0 players, so even if you fix hisec bot mining, it will only increase the influx of raw minerals from nullsecs. After a while, prices will return to normal, and the only persistent result you'll get from this is that hisec will be a lot more dependant on nullsec supplies.
Well, that and the bots will have the captcha cracked in a day or two at most, so all you'd be doing is punishing everyone else.
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Shantie en'Lewarx
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Posted - 2011.06.20 13:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Shantie en''Lewarx on 20/06/2011 13:33:53 Exactly my point. The whole mining system is ruined beyond repair.
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Resender
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Posted - 2011.06.20 13:54:00 -
[14]
It isn't broken. The problem lies that bots are automated from login even, the best fix is to force human interaction at the login process. Something like a popup before you log in.(With a random question)
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Shantie en'Lewarx
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Posted - 2011.06.20 14:02:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shantie en''Lewarx on 20/06/2011 14:03:33 Nooooooooooooooooooooo! I'm pfssed off enough, needing to enter my char's name when logging on account management.
ed: curse that triple-damned message parser that you can't turn off in your message settings.
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sYnc Vir
Caldari Wolfsbrigade ShadowWolves.net
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Posted - 2011.06.20 14:10:00 -
[16]
Or even better without the ****ing annoying messages you could simply stop all mining ships from fitting Shield Boosters.
But i would want another 40 powergrid in exchange cause having a Battleship size and cost ship with the powergrid of a AF is kinda ******ed. ... I fly carelessly, without focus and semi afk all the time. ... |
Myfanwy Heimdal
Caldari Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
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Posted - 2011.06.20 14:12:00 -
[17]
I would need a bot to resolve the gibberish of Capache.
If that is ever the solution then I need a new game because in my advancing years my eyes aren't that good. Heck, my reactions aren't what they used to be hence the reason why I spend most of my time mining - even the rocks are too slow to get away.
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Darwin Edison
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Posted - 2011.06.20 15:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Myfanwy Heimdal I would need a bot to resolve the gibberish of Capache.
If that is ever the solution then I need a new game because in my advancing years my eyes aren't that good.
Glad to see I'm not the only one.
Why only pick on miners? Let's add it for everyone in the game who doesn't watch the screen 100% of the time! This would solve those pesky AFK cloakers, station spinners, multi-boxers and the pests who clutter up my overview by auto piloting their Iteron MKI's through hi sec. Maybe we should talk to the folks at Ventrilo about adding this as a feature of Vent too! Why stop there? Think about how much internet bandwidth would be saved if all of the ISP's in the world started popping them up and booting people for inactivity? Let's make it happen! Who do we call?
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.06.20 17:41:00 -
[19]
I'm sorry, but unless the Captchas are really clear, I can't read them. So essentially, myself and people like me aren't allowed to mine.
Not supported... again (this is like the 50th time this year its come up, and it is still a bad idea).
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Yulinki Atavuli
Minmatar Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Yulinki Atavuli on 20/06/2011 21:26:44 seriously, it's a good idea. but, it would be a thousand times better if, when, someone turns on their mining turrets, from that moment on for the next 30 minutes afk their mining turrets turn off and in order to turn them back on they have to type in a capche or a security question.
i just read people already complaining about capchas. so what would be awesome is a security question. something funny would work.
example; "what do you say when someone is talking about quitting?" answer "can i have your stuff?"
idk there can be alot of good ones that can be created.
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Yulinki Atavuli Edited by: Yulinki Atavuli on 20/06/2011 21:22:26 seriously, it's a good idea. but, it would be a thousand times better if, when, someone turns on their mining turrets, from that moment on for the next 30 minutes afk their mining turrets turn off and in order to turn them back on they have to type in a capche or a security question.
i just read people already complaining about capchas. so what would be awesome is a security question. something funny would work.
No, that would not be awesome. That would be stupid.
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Ore Grinder
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Posted - 2011.06.21 01:17:00 -
[22]
Don't ban for failing to enter the text, just keep track of who enters them and who does not. Botters will enter zero times and legit miners will enter >50% of the time. Those that enter close to zero of them can be monitored more closely and banned by a GM if they see fit. It's just a way to filter out likely offenders. Those who are not offending will have to get back to their screen before the end of a second cycle or the lasers quit anyway. If they eject a can, but fail to answer a simple question from a GM checking them out they are likely a bot.
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sYnc Vir
Caldari Wolfsbrigade ShadowWolves.net
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Posted - 2011.06.21 01:17:00 -
[23]
Edited by: sYnc Vir on 21/06/2011 01:18:01
Originally by: sYnc Vir Or even better without the ****ing annoying messages you could simply stop all mining ships from fitting Shield Boosters.
But i would want another 40 powergrid in exchange cause having a Battleship size and cost ship with the powergrid of a AF is kinda ******ed.
Yo DUMBASSES, Bots can run cause they tank rats with a booster, lose it and they cant.
****ing question in game every 30 minutes is f u c k i n g r e t a r d e d. It would have to be for everyone and I have fleet fights that last longer then that. I die because im answering some question. Im ticketing that ****. ... I fly carelessly, without focus and semi afk all the time. ... |
Velator Nador
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.06.21 02:03:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Velator Nador on 21/06/2011 02:07:20
Originally by: Destructo Wisen That's the complete idea. You're missing the point, of the purpose of mining. Not just an "AFK" task, it's a profitable economy task.
Mining is what makes the Market go round, thus creating a profitable profession that is in demand and has a purpose.
What's the point of playing if you're AFK. That doesn't make sense and provides reason for bots to exist. In short, Learn to Play?
If bots are going to keep your guy playing what does detecting AFK have to do with it. You will not catch botters this way... Simple test cannot detect bot from normal player except consitancy and the botter is at the advantage. It would be pointless. What would a normal person being caught up in real life have to do with solving botters. You are going after the wrong thing.... And bot is program. It would take 2 seconds to write something to bypass anything. Tehy can write code in mass if they want and the game developers could never catch up. I don't think you are aware of how easy it is to write logic. Those stupid things you see on forums could be overidden if "anyone" felt like writing one. None of it works.
Bots equal efficiency of simple tasks. In this case against another program taking away the advantage. Even person versus bot detection is hard and messy and you can ban someone falsely for doing nothing wrong. YOu don't detect a program by looking for afk. Period... It doesn't work. If you want to stop bots you have to know about programming. And alot compared to the average person. more than most "security" programmers do since they are just lazy undertrained programming specialists. Which mean they don't know anything. There is no specialties in programming. The only solution is knowledge. it will fight back and forth until full AI is developed and we learn all you can about the human brain etc and you have to allow and work around them. That is the honest to goodness end result. Not me exagerating. I know about programming. That is actually what bots were designed for originally. it was about AI and game concepts. So they will continue even if you stop them until it exists and games are more fully developed. Then you will have them made by the game developers too! AGAIN!
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Avrien
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.06.21 04:08:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Avrien on 21/06/2011 04:09:47
Originally by: Ore Grinder Don't ban for failing to enter the text, just keep track of who enters them and who does not. Botters will enter zero times and legit miners will enter >50% of the time. Those that enter close to zero of them can be monitored more closely and banned by a GM if they see fit. It's just a way to filter out likely offenders. Those who are not offending will have to get back to their screen before the end of a second cycle or the lasers quit anyway. If they eject a can, but fail to answer a simple question from a GM checking them out they are likely a bot.
Botters will not enter 0% of the time. They will enter 100%(which you can't ban for as a logical test. It doesn't separate anything) or purposelly less making the even more indistinguishable if that is more to begin with....
Both because they will enter manually and because they can write programs to both do it and do it randomly time to simulate human interaction. If you have math understanding you can do that easily and beyond any detection for logical test for computer randomness! It would be a waist of money and just make the game more expensive to do it anyway. A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference.Thomas Jefferson
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Resender
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:24:00 -
[26]
Best way to lower bot amount is by interrupting the log in process. For example when they introduced the new character crerator and forced people to redo their toons a lot of bots failed to log in. Off course once they allowed people to log in without redoing their characters bots were able to log in en mass again.
The introduction of QC might also temporary limit bots, al tough the old UI is still available so it might not.
Introducing an extra login question that requires a simple Y/N answer but where the question is posed on an image instead of copyable text might help.
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Valei Khurelem
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:02:00 -
[27]
Hey, I've got an idea, instead of making all these useless fixes for a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, why not make mining actually engaging and fun?
EVE as it stands now:
Combat:
. Lock on target, wait for enemy shield, armour and structure to go red ( You win depending on whether you've picked the right skills, ship or equipment )
Mining:
. Lock on asteroid, wait for cargo hold to fill up, empty into container or sell at station and repeat
Manufacturing
. Purchase blueprint, gather materials from market or mining, pick the settings for manufacturing and log
None of this is interesting! If you don't want people to use bots then the answer is simple! Make game mechanics that won't make them want to use the bots in the first place and actually enjoy the game, make the mechanics complex so that stupid bots will be absolutely useless when in this game.
Also, speaking as someone who's actually trying to keep a forum clean of spambots, capche simply doesn't work, a clever programmer will get round this half-assed system and you will actually enrage the people you want to use the game if they get banned because I'm someone with pretty good eyesight and I have trouble figuring out what the hell the letters on the capche images are.
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Resender
Introducing an extra login question that requires a simple Y/N answer but where the question is posed on an image instead of copyable text might annoy everyone and punish the non/poor English speakers who don't have their own localised client yet.
ftfy
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j1tabug IWINIWINIWIN
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:00:00 -
[29]
I cant read these things even with my glasses on half the bloody time and the amount of ways this idiotic idea can be exploited is unimaginable so you have a big NO from me
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Xeatrana
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Valei Khurelem Hey, I've got an idea, instead of making all these useless fixes for a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, why not make mining actually engaging and fun?
EVE as it stands now:
Combat:
. Lock on target, wait for enemy shield, armour and structure to go red ( You win depending on whether you've picked the right skills, ship or equipment )
Mining:
. Lock on asteroid, wait for cargo hold to fill up, empty into container or sell at station and repeat
Manufacturing
. Purchase blueprint, gather materials from market or mining, pick the settings for manufacturing and log
None of this is interesting! If you don't want people to use bots then the answer is simple! Make game mechanics that won't make them want to use the bots in the first place and actually enjoy the game, make the mechanics complex so that stupid bots will be absolutely useless when in this game.
Also, speaking as someone who's actually trying to keep a forum clean of spambots, capche simply doesn't work, a clever programmer will get round this half-assed system and you will actually enrage the people you want to use the game if they get banned because I'm someone with pretty good eyesight and I have trouble figuring out what the hell the letters on the capche images are.
See and there you go totally wrong wrong wrong. Do you think botters bot because its boring to do missions and mine ? A player botting bots out of the need to make money to fly expensive spaceships or finance your newly bought extension on your house. yeah they are boring as hell but there are enough players that enjoy them allot.
Then what is the real solution?
Simple there is no ultimate solution against popular believe! Whatever CCP makes the botters program something to counter it. Look at world of newbcraft. They may well have the most advanced game bots I have ever seen. Complex walking patterns flying object detection (walls, trees, mountains and more ****) they can even freeking pvp and do it well. Why and how did they get this advanced? Simple they are forced to evolve bigger better and faster.
There is not a single mechanic besides having a sensor implanted in your hand that registers your presence behind the computer and makes a comparison to the data the server it is getting from your mouse actions or keyboard actions.
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