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Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.06.20 18:05:00 -
[1]
I just recently took a look at this site. I'm curious what kind of experiences people have had with it, safety, etc. The information available on the site is clear and straightforward, but simultaneously a little light on certain details. What is a registered share? How exactly are the shares traded, i.e. what purpose does BSAC serve in an exchange of shares? My guess is its something Chribba-like, but I'm not certain.
Forgive my noobishness in this particular realm. My Google skills may have failed me. |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.20 18:52:00 -
[2]
BSAC Exchange is a very cool and little advertised site that does share trading via "virtualized" securities, registered or otherwise. I don't use it personally, mostly because I spend 95% of my time working on developing and running my own meta-services...but I'm a fan of Block's work.
From a safety perspective, it's as safe as safe gets around MD (purposefully ambiguous statement). Block can speak better to the technical details of how he's implemented things.
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Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:16:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Hexxx
From a safety perspective, it's as safe as safe gets around MD (purposefully ambiguous statement).
Depending on who you ask, dousing yourself in gas and setting yourself on fire is safer than most things in MD.
Nothing against Block, just saying 
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Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Fred Barbossa on 20/06/2011 19:31:32
Block posted asking for people to just send him money so he can "test code". A while back, it was very important that he receive large volumes of isk so he knows his program can handle his wallet being a larger number. He also flipped out when people asked for details on why that was important.
Phaser Inc is more legit. http://www2.phaserinc.com/
You can see them spamming market hubs asking for investments
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.06.21 00:43:00 -
[5]
Block Ships and Ammunitions Corporation (BSAC) has been in operation for over five years. We operate EVEÆs only real-time stock exchange. By registering shares electronically, shares can be traded in real-time. In addition, the exchange keeps historical data regarding trades and dividends.
What is a registered share?
We use an electronic stock ledger to register shares. Typically, one registered share in the stock ledger is the equivalent of one in-game share that has been deposited in the exchange. In instances where increase affordability is desired, shares are registered with a stock-split (see BMBE). All shares are kept in BSAC MMMÆs personal wallet and CEOÆs can easily verify the legitimacy of the ExchangeÆs share balance. Most important of all, you do not miss out on dividend payments on your registered shares; dividends are forwarded to the shareholders.
How are shares traded?
All trades are done electronically, where ownership of the share is transfer at the time of trade. Shares can be sold/purchase in the exchange by placing sell/buy orders. We do not regulate prices in the exchange and they are governed by supply and demand.
What purpose does BSAC serve in an exchange of shares?
BSAC developed the exchange website and manages the exchange. For the most part there is very little involvement of BSAC in the exchange. The most time intensive activities are share registration and ISK withdrawals.
Excellent Track Record
Over the five years we issued multiple IPOs and Bonds, with all of our Bonds closing successfully on time. We are the only corporation in the EVE universe that offers several 100% liquid stocks; meaning you can sell your stock back to BSAC at 100% market price. Since inception, over One Trillion ISK has changed hands in the exchange. There are no trading fees, and you can withdraw your ISK anytime.
Additional Services
In addition we publish the Ore Income, offer the Inter-Hub Mineral eXchange (IHMX), and sell advertisement space.
Don't hesitate to ask questions or join our in-game channel BSACPUBLIC.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.06.21 00:55:00 -
[6]
Do you put an auditor/alt/whatever into each corp that offers shares? |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 01:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mara Villoso
Do you put an auditor/alt/whatever into each corp that offers shares?
I don't believe he does. If you want to know the quality of an investment which is not his, I would advise doing your own homework and making sure an audit is done to your satisfaction. There is no substitute for doing your own homework on what makes a good or bad investment.
Not trying to pick on you here, but it does bear repeating.
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Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.06.21 01:14:00 -
[8]
No, we do not oversight any listing corporations, except for the ones BSAC manages. Investors need to do their own research about the corporations listed in the exchange. The listing requirements are fairly minimum; a business plan posted in the MD and reviewed positively, and one registered share.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.06.21 01:19:00 -
[9]
Understood. I guess I was wondering how stock fraud is avoided. |
Clambumper June
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Posted - 2011.06.21 02:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Block Ships and Ammunitions Corporation (BSAC) has been in operation for over five years. We operate EVEÆs only real-time stock exchange. By registering shares electronically, shares can be traded in real-time. In addition, the exchange keeps historical data regarding trades and dividends.
What is a registered share?
We use an electronic stock ledger to register shares. Typically, one registered share in the stock ledger is the equivalent of one in-game share that has been deposited in the exchange. In instances where increase affordability is desired, shares are registered with a stock-split (see BMBE). All shares are kept in BSAC MMMÆs personal wallet and CEOÆs can easily verify the legitimacy of the ExchangeÆs share balance. Most important of all, you do not miss out on dividend payments on your registered shares; dividends are forwarded to the shareholders.
How are shares traded?
All trades are done electronically, where ownership of the share is transfer at the time of trade. Shares can be sold/purchase in the exchange by placing sell/buy orders. We do not regulate prices in the exchange and they are governed by supply and demand.
What purpose does BSAC serve in an exchange of shares?
BSAC developed the exchange website and manages the exchange. For the most part there is very little involvement of BSAC in the exchange. The most time intensive activities are share registration and ISK withdrawals.
Excellent Track Record
Over the five years we issued multiple IPOs and Bonds, with all of our Bonds closing successfully on time. We are the only corporation in the EVE universe that offers several 100% liquid stocks; meaning you can sell your stock back to BSAC at 100% market price. Since inception, over One Trillion ISK has changed hands in the exchange. There are no trading fees, and you can withdraw your ISK anytime.
Additional Services
In addition we publish the Ore Income, offer the Inter-Hub Mineral eXchange (IHMX), and sell advertisement space.
Don't hesitate to ask questions or join our in-game channel BSACPUBLIC.
Block, if your doing so well, how is that no dividends were paid this month? You run a mineral exchange as well as many other stocks, but none had a dividend associated with them this month.
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.21 10:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mara Villoso
I'm curious what kind of experiences people have had with it, safety, etc.
I have used BSAC in the past for investing and share trading. I have had probably put a good few hundred million ISK through it, deposited shares with the exchange so I can sell them, deposited cash, bought shares and held them in the exchange, made a number of withdrawals. Always been smooth and easy to use with good customer service.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.21 10:54:00 -
[12]
In deciding whether you want to use the exchange you need to remember that you will be exposing yourself to potential losses if BSAC itself scams in addition to the risks involved if the particular businesses you invest in scam. In assessing whether BSAC itself is a good risk you may want to consider a) the historical failure/scam rate for businesses of this size (very, very high); b) the lack of transparency in BSAC's finances;* c) the rather erratic behaviour of BSAC's CEO. Some background can be found in the following two threads:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1477500
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1445225&page=1
I would also be a bit wary about Hexxx's advice; he doesn't have a great track record in assessing the safety of large businesses (look up EBANK if you want to know more).
*A major concern of mine has been BSAC's unwillingness to have a third party audit in order to confirm the existence of the assets that they claim to hold. After considerable pressure Block did eventually agree to have an audit done. However, sometime later he stated that the only method for auditing BSAC would be via specially designed in-house software. A month or so later he quietly announced the cancellation of the development of said software and started posting irrational nonsense about audits being pointless in every thread that touched on the question of auditing. As things currently stand, nearly six months after agreeing to have an audit there has still been no third party confirmation that BSAC holds assets equal in value to its hundreds of billions of isk in liabilities.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: RAW23
I would also be a bit wary about Hexxx's advice; he doesn't have a great track record in assessing the safety of large businesses (look up EBANK if you want to know more).
Confirming that contrary to popular belief, I do have the ability to be wrong once every few years. Please disregard anything else that I may have done as one failure invalidates all other efforts.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mara Villoso
Understood. I guess I was wondering how stock fraud is avoided.
This task falls mainly to the investor. Don't let other people do it for you. Use the information available to make the best choice for you.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:47:00 -
[15]
Edited by: RAW23 on 21/06/2011 12:48:52
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: RAW23
I would also be a bit wary about Hexxx's advice; he doesn't have a great track record in assessing the safety of large businesses (look up EBANK if you want to know more).
Confirming that contrary to popular belief, I do have the ability to be wrong once every few years. Please disregard anything else that I may have done as one failure invalidates all other efforts.
Now if only you could learn from those mistakes ...
I don't recall seeing you supporting any other business than BSAC in the last two years. The surprising thing is that you offer support to a business that, from the outside, looks to have many of the same structural issues as EBANK did. But perhaps you have a blindspot for large businesses with a mixture of erratic and impotent directors and completely inadequate oversight.
Edit - Why not throw in some analysis to justify your claim that BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD? I would be interested to see your working.
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Nikki West
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:59:00 -
[16]
BSAC:
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Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:08:00 -
[17]
The entirety of Block enterprises, I can't even keep track of all the different facets, is an overly-complex blackhole of interlinked "businesses" that money and shares occasionally disappear into. No one but Block has any idea what goes on behind the curtains, and there has never been an accounting for the years that it has been going on.
I'd say BSAC is far more risky than the average offer on MD simply because you are adding an additional layer of potential fraud (the business distributing the initial shares + BSAC), as well as something so large and complex being more prone to burnout, business failure "i was gonna scam anyway" fraud (the "brock"), and ponzi scheming.
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: RAW23
Why not throw in some analysis to justify your claim that BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD?
No uncollateralised investment is safe. Therefore BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD. That logic works for me.
Despite the criticism that Block has come under, which is mainly a product of bad PR meeting bored MD denizens looking for the next drama bomb, how many other investment businesses do you see still standing that have been around for as long and have never been proved to be a scam or a failure, that have consistently tried to build something professional and innovative, and contribute something to the community?
I would still maintain that the same rules of investing should be applied to BSAC as any other offering. But to refuse to acknowledge that BSAC has got anything going for it is just stubborn.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
Originally by: RAW23
Why not throw in some analysis to justify your claim that BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD?
No uncollateralised investment is safe. Therefore BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD. That logic works for me.
Despite the criticism that Block has come under, which is mainly a product of bad PR meeting bored MD denizens looking for the next drama bomb, how many other investment businesses do you see still standing that have been around for as long and have never been proved to be a scam or a failure, that have consistently tried to build something professional and innovative, and contribute something to the community?
I would still maintain that the same rules of investing should be applied to BSAC as any other offering. But to refuse to acknowledge that BSAC has got anything going for it is just stubborn.
I don't refuse to acknowledge that at all. But I also don't accept that all investment opportunities are equally risky. The logic of the first line in your post is not really logic  .
You may well be right that a lot of the criticism aimed at Block was due to bad PR but a few things did come out of it quite clearly. Primarily, Block is not at all cool under pressure and lashes out irrationally if he feels he is being challenged (I was variously charged with being a racist, schemeing to steal BSAC's confidential data, leading an MD wide attack on Block, and seeking to destroy his business when I asked him a few basic questions). This is not the ideal form of leadership for a large investment vehicle. In addition, as Elise points out, investing via the exchange adds an additional level of risk. The investor will lose their isk if either Block or the listed business scams. That means unless you assess BSAC as a zero risk of scam any investment through the exchange will be riskier than a direct investment in the same business.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: RAW23
Edited by: RAW23 on 21/06/2011 12:48:52
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: RAW23
I would also be a bit wary about Hexxx's advice; he doesn't have a great track record in assessing the safety of large businesses (look up EBANK if you want to know more).
Confirming that contrary to popular belief, I do have the ability to be wrong once every few years. Please disregard anything else that I may have done as one failure invalidates all other efforts.
Now if only you could learn from those mistakes ...
I don't recall seeing you supporting any other business than BSAC in the last two years. The surprising thing is that you offer support to a business that, from the outside, looks to have many of the same structural issues as EBANK did. But perhaps you have a blindspot for large businesses with a mixture of erratic and impotent directors and completely inadequate oversight.
Edit - Why not throw in some analysis to justify your claim that BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD? I would be interested to see your working.
I have learned from my mistakes, I've posted those lessons as I develop solutions to them (i.e. distributed withdraws, use of sub-ledgers, asset reconciliations against various API inputs for CoGs, and more). Everything must be fully accounted for...if an ISK moves, there must be a reason why. If there's not a reason why, the ISK should be flagged. I'm developing Solar to address this, and while I'm happy to talk about it even more than I already have...I've already been talking about it for a while.
Even the Insurance implementation based on Solar is taking a very conservative approach to validate a business plan, being underwritten by myself and Sencnes to 100% of potential liabilities. I even have a standing offer for an external auditor to come in, view my API, and look at my source code. (So far no one has taken me up on it)
But I digress...this is about your problem with anything positive I've said about BSAC, not you taking pop shots at my work.
On that topic, I personally like BSAC. Through conversation with people and my own reading, I've got a hunch on how he runs his business and I think it's pretty clever. I don't always agree with Block's management style as it runs somewhat contradictory to my own take on things, but it's his business.
Let's get to my analysis:
Do I think he could be more transparent? Yes.
Do I think he's not transparent enough today? Yes.
Do I recommend people use BSAC? I recommend people try it out, if for no other reason than to get a feel for how things CAN work. I would NOT put any significant amount of money in any 3rd party service today.
Which stocks do I recommend you buy on BSAC? That's for each investor to figure out for themselves.
What does "...as safe as any investment on MD?" mean? It means that while various investments may seem more or less risky than another, there is an inherent risk to all MD investments which can NEVER be mitigated. This risk is significant.
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Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
Originally by: RAW23
Why not throw in some analysis to justify your claim that BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD?
No uncollateralised investment is safe. Therefore BSAC is as safe as any investment on MD. That logic works for me.
Despite the criticism that Block has come under, which is mainly a product of bad PR meeting bored MD denizens looking for the next drama bomb, how many other investment businesses do you see still standing that have been around for as long and have never been proved to be a scam or a failure, that have consistently tried to build something professional and innovative, and contribute something to the community?
I would still maintain that the same rules of investing should be applied to BSAC as any other offering. But to refuse to acknowledge that BSAC has got anything going for it is just stubborn.
I don't refuse to acknowledge that at all. But I also don't accept that all investment opportunities are equally risky. The logic of the first line in your post is not really logic .
Deductive reasoning then? 
Originally by: RAW23
investing via the exchange adds an additional level of risk. The investor will lose their isk if either Block or the listed business scams. That means unless you assess BSAC as a zero risk of scam any investment through the exchange will be riskier than a direct investment in the same business.
I don't dispute that. It's a fair analysis (if you are investing in listed entities rather than the mineral reserve or cash reserve). My point is that there are pros, it is not all cons.
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Molic Blackbird
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: RAW23
In addition, as Elise points out, investing via the exchange adds an additional level of risk. The investor will lose their isk if either Block or the listed business scams. That means unless you assess BSAC as a zero risk of scam any investment through the exchange will be riskier than a direct investment in the same business.
That's not true. As long as the listed business owner has a list of investors, that person could still pay back those investors should the BSAC scam. The ISK raised is held by the business owner, not the BSAC. As such, the majority of potential risk for a scam lies with the business owner. The only way using the BSAC increases the potential for scam is if the business owner doesn't keep track of who the investors are.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
Originally by: RAW23
In addition, as Elise points out, investing via the exchange adds an additional level of risk. The investor will lose their isk if either Block or the listed business scams. That means unless you assess BSAC as a zero risk of scam any investment through the exchange will be riskier than a direct investment in the same business.
That's not true. As long as the listed business owner has a list of investors, that person could still pay back those investors should the BSAC scam. The ISK raised is held by the business owner, not the BSAC. As such, the majority of potential risk for a scam lies with the business owner. The only way using the BSAC increases the potential for scam is if the business owner doesn't keep track of who the investors are.
How can the business owner keep track? Unless BSAC informs each listed business of every transaction on the exchange and tells that business who the buyer was and who the seller was, AND the identities are ingame identities and not just BSAC account identities, the business owner will not know who actually owns the shares that are officially owned by BSAC. It may well be the case that this is what happens, in which case you are correct. But I'm not aware of such a mechanic myself. Could you link me to something that lays this out?
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Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
That's not true. As long as the listed business owner has a list of investors, that person could still pay back those investors should the BSAC scam. The ISK raised is held by the business owner, not the BSAC. As such, the majority of potential risk for a scam lies with the business owner. The only way using the BSAC increases the potential for scam is if the business owner doesn't keep track of who the investors are.
The shares become "virtualized", where Block is the only person who knows the actual owner. The business owner has no way of tracking with certainty who actually owns these virtualized shares once they are in the system. There is a myriad of possible ways in which Block can scam or BSAC can fail and the original share distributor will have no way of judging to whom ISK should be distributed.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:07:00 -
[25]
Edited by: RAW23 on 21/06/2011 14:07:24
Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk
Deductive reasoning then?
 What I meant is that there are a number of questionable hidden premisses within the structure of the argument (at least 'All unsafe investments are equally unsafe') that are needed to reach the conclusion. It was probably unfair to say that the argument wasn't logical. It's just that the steps need to be made explicit to make the argument deductively compelling and I think that when the hidden premisses that are necessary to reach the conclusion are spelled out they would probably not be ones you would want to subscribe to.
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Molic Blackbird
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Elise DarkStar
The shares become "virtualized", where Block is the only person who knows the actual owner. The business owner has no way of tracking with certainty who actually owns these virtualized shares once they are in the system. There is a myriad of possible ways in which Block can scam or BSAC can fail and the original share distributor will have no way of judging to whom ISK should be distributed.
Do you have a source to back up the claim that the business owner doesn't know who the investors are? While I don't have any information one way or the other, my assumption is business owners do get a list of investors.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
Originally by: RAW23
In addition, as Elise points out, investing via the exchange adds an additional level of risk. The investor will lose their isk if either Block or the listed business scams. That means unless you assess BSAC as a zero risk of scam any investment through the exchange will be riskier than a direct investment in the same business.
That's not true. As long as the listed business owner has a list of investors, that person could still pay back those investors should the BSAC scam. The ISK raised is held by the business owner, not the BSAC. As such, the majority of potential risk for a scam lies with the business owner. The only way using the BSAC increases the potential for scam is if the business owner doesn't keep track of who the investors are.
How can the business owner keep track? Unless BSAC informs each listed business of every transaction on the exchange and tells that business who the buyer was and who the seller was, AND the identities are ingame identities and not just BSAC account identities, the business owner will not know who actually owns the shares that are officially owned by BSAC. It may well be the case that this is what happens, in which case you are correct. But I'm not aware of such a mechanic myself. Could you link me to something that lays this out?
I believe you're correct here. For virtualized shares, there's no solid mechanic for identifying investors outside of Block providing that information. If it's a manual process, it's even more risky. If it's automated (I hope it is), then it's less risky....but you're still depending on him (Block) to provide you with that information.
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Elise DarkStar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Molic Blackbird
Do you have a source to back up the claim that the business owner doesn't know who the investors are? While I don't have any information one way or the other, my assumption is business owners do get a list of investors.
Sources? Claims?
Read what you quoted and use your reason. It doesn't require "sourcing", nor is it a "claim".
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Mara Villoso
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Posted - 2011.06.21 14:35:00 -
[29]
Wow. This thread blossomed while I was away.
I've been around long enough to know the classic advice of don't invest what you can't lose, do my homework, etc etc. I was poking around to see what kind of structure backs up the exchange and/or share selling/trading in general. The reason for that is that I thought maybe I had found a way that share sales could be scammed.
Here's my thought: Player creates Scam Corp [SKAM] with a disposable alt. Alt creates a million shares. Alt quits corp (which closes the corp) and is then biomassed. As long as the alt didn't send out any mail, generate kill or loss mails, or post to the forums, there is no way for a player to locate the corp or the character. Time passes. Player creates Scam Corp [SKAM], because its possible to re-use closed corp names/ticker. Player starts normal business venture. Over time he builds relationships, does business, etc. Eventually he offers shares either on the exchange or through bonds that are paid out through dividends. Player sells original million shares.
Its got a few issues. Mainly that by right clicking on the shares and then show info, the original corp name shows up with Closed next to it. You can't do that until you buy the shares though. I'm sure there are other considerations, perhaps even some more twists and turns that would work in the scam's favor.
In any event, it made me wonder. |
TomHorn
Caldari
Waffen Foreign Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.21 15:15:00 -
[30]
As soon as the name Block is mentioned Raw23 you get all excited and start rustling your tinfoil and donning your tinfoil helmet.
Who are you anyway ? You had an audit done and what did it prove. Proved that you are character trader , also proved that you had someone else buy characters for you. But it didnt give complete history on Raw23 because it ended coming up to a dead end, and the auditor then had to go to you to ask why, and take your word for the explanation given.
Why did it come to a dead end because youve got something to hide and you decided to hide it. Now thats a fact wouldnt you say.
Any investment in eve is not safe but to say Block is less safe i think is unfair. I think he is more safe than most.
He has been around for over 5 years seems to have a geniune interest in the MD area. Has run business and many bonds and has always paid them out and has recently made a stock exchange.
Block been around 5 years Raw23 how long you been around?
You the next cosmoray ?
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