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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:07:00 -
[1]
A gang of burglars broke into someones house and one of them got stabbed, the police have arrested the homeowners on suspicion of murder. Hopefully its just a formality and part of the investigation and they wont be charged.
I wish we had the the self defense laws as the US.
Link to Article
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Oosel
The Nightwatch
Night Coven
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:37:00 -
[2]
what a pain it was getting in to work this morning because of this. one of our guys lives right opposite where it happened and he cant couldnt get in his house as it was closed off as part of the crime scene....
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Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:51:00 -
[3]
Even in the US you are arrested if you kill someone breaking into your home. It's a formality to be sure that not only the person was really breaking into your home but that you didn't use excessive force. Even in the US, if you kill someone who isn't trying to attack you, has no weapon, and is trying to flee, you will be charged for murder.
Lots of people, Americans included, think that Americans' houses are like embassies or something, where they are exempt from the law or something. This is most definitely not true.
I'm sure they were arrested just as a formality, but in any case, if you break into my house don't expect to leave with all your body parts or even alive, especially if you have a weapon on you. I'll go to jail to protect my family. I won't be trying to chase you away, I'll be trying to maim or kill you.
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Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.06.23 15:06:00 -
[4]
There was a case in the 90's in which someone broke into someones house got hurt in the process, and sued over it. They might have won... In which case it is better to kill them.
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Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.23 17:21:00 -
[5]
How things are treated in the U.S. also varies by where you live.
(Most) urban areas tend to have more restrictive laws to prevent lawful citizens from protecting themselves.
However, many states lean heavy towards favoring the homeowner if an actual intruder gets wasted. For example: If the home owner says "I felt my life was in danger, and I thought he had a gun." is enough in many places, even if there was no gun.
To convict, the intruder does not merely have to be unarmed and unthreating, the court has to PROVE that the homeowner KNEW there was no threat to his life. Unless the homeowner PROVEABLY KNEW there was no threat, it is INNOCENT. Lack of threat is not enough. It has to be PROVEABLY KNOWN.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.23 17:31:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Sergeant Spot
How things are treated in the U.S. also varies by where you live.
(Most) urban areas tend to have more restrictive laws to prevent lawful citizens from protecting themselves.
However, many states lean heavy towards favoring the homeowner if an actual intruder gets wasted. For example: If the home owner says "I felt my life was in danger, and I thought he had a gun." is enough in many places, even if there was no gun.
To convict, the intruder does not merely have to be unarmed and unthreating, the court has to PROVE that the homeowner KNEW there was no threat to his life. Unless the homeowner PROVEABLY KNEW there was no threat, it is INNOCENT. Lack of threat is not enough. It has to be PROVEABLY KNOWN.
In this case I believe the homeowners would have a claim that they where in fear of serious injury or of being killed. Gangs don't usually burgle houses for theft they usually invade peoples homes to take hostages or to batter the occupants around and tie them up demanding cash or access to places of work etc.
Even if the thought of that never crossed their minds being confronted in you're home by a gang of thugs is very intimidating. The burglar was only stabbed once apparently so it looks like they got frightened and grabbed a knife and somehow one of them got stabbed, either in confusion or as a fear motivated self defense action.
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Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
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Posted - 2011.06.23 18:07:00 -
[7]
I will say if you have been on the wrong side of the law the idea of 'suicide by cop' is hilarious 
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Fortress Of Solitude |
Josefine Etrange
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.23 18:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Astenion
Even in the US you are arrested if you kill someone breaking into your home. It's a formality to be sure that not only the person was really breaking into your home but that you didn't use excessive force. Even in the US, if you kill someone who isn't trying to attack you, has no weapon, and is trying to flee, you will be charged for murder.
Lots of people, Americans included, think that Americans' houses are like embassies or something, where they are exempt from the law or something. This is most definitely not true.
I'm sure they were arrested just as a formality, but in any case, if you break into my house don't expect to leave with all your body parts or even alive, especially if you have a weapon on you. I'll go to jail to protect my family. I won't be trying to chase you away, I'll be trying to maim or kill you.
I salute to you. Especially because you are aware and willing to go to jail to your actions. Nothing annoys me more than criminals who think they have to right to break to law. If you are disagreeing with the law you should be willing to face the consequences when braking it.
Why a forum in the year 2011 still has no automatic double post merge which can be done even with javascript mostly is beyond my understanding. |
Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.23 18:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Josefine Etrange
I salute to you. Especially because you are aware and willing to go to jail to your actions. Nothing annoys me more than criminals who think they have to right to break to law. If you are disagreeing with the law you should be willing to face the consequences when braking it.
The thing is if you break the law by going to far you are a criminal just the same as the burglar. Citizens do not decide the law, governments and courts do. Do you believe we should cherry pick exactly what laws we should and shouldn't follow?
Not that it would be bad certain crimes are certainly more odious than others, but if you act in the belief that "I am doing whats right and this guys is in the wrong" it is very, very different than deciding "I am a law abiding member of the public and this guys is a criminal so I can do whatever the hell I feel like to him" because then you certainly not a law abiding member of the public.
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Rikeka
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2011.06.23 18:58:00 -
[10]
Once, 2 years back, I ran over a dude that tried to rob when on a red light.
Later learned I broke his leg and 3 ribs. Got out in a couple of hours.
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Desya Dak'ann
Caldari
No Ducks Allowed
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Posted - 2011.06.23 19:28:00 -
[11]
In England, a man's house is his castle.
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Ryder 3vyn
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Posted - 2011.06.23 19:46:00 -
[12]
Noob burglar.
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Gangus
Minmatar
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vogue
I will say if you have been on the wrong side of the law the idea of 'suicide by cop' is hilarious
Mate, I've been on the "wrong side of the law" many times in my life, and ALWAYS due to my own actions, and the law only got involved in my life due to my actions, not because they are looking to ruin someone's day. The thought that destroying someone's (i.e. a police officer) life is appalling, it seems you somehow justify ruining a man (or woman's) life by forcing them to kill you as nothing more than "hilarious", all because you got caught doing something you shouldn't have been doing. The very idea of taking vengeance upon a random cop in that particular manner is offensive and quite simply selfish and juvenile, bordering on socio/psychopathic.
Most of these officers have dedicated their lives to making sure that the world is a safer place for everyone, and even thinking of that sort of revenge due to your own actions is reprehensible.
So do us all a favour mate. Meet us halfway on your "hilarious" comedy routine. Do the suicide bit, but leave the cop out of it. I feel the world would be a better place.
P.S. Regarding my own position on the "wrong side" of the law, it's been due to possession of substances that affect only myself, not anything that was causing any harm to others. You break into a house, you deserve whatever you get. A person has every right to feel safe in their own home.
I hate it when it's not clear when someone's sig begins.
Never mess with a guy in an ugly ship, he's got nothing to lose |
northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
Terran United Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:17:00 -
[14]
I bet the man who stabbed the man was a PL pilot :) ganked him hard! :)
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gangus
P.S. Regarding my own position on the "wrong side" of the law, it's been due to possession of substances that affect only myself, not anything that was causing any harm to others. You break into a house, you deserve whatever you get. A person has every right to feel safe in their own home.
Substance abuse is not a victimless crime, sure you may not have broken the law in any other way than possessing the illegal drugs but as a user you are one critical piece in a long chain of crime, violence, bribery and smuggling.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Astenion
Even in the US you are arrested if you kill someone breaking into your home. It's a formality to be sure that not only the person was really breaking into your home but that you didn't use excessive force. Even in the US, if you kill someone who isn't trying to attack you, has no weapon, and is trying to flee, you will be charged for murder.
Lots of people, Americans included, think that Americans' houses are like embassies or something, where they are exempt from the law or something. This is most definitely not true.
I'm sure they were arrested just as a formality, but in any case, if you break into my house don't expect to leave with all your body parts or even alive, especially if you have a weapon on you. I'll go to jail to protect my family. I won't be trying to chase you away, I'll be trying to maim or kill you.
This depends on which states adhere to "Castle Doctrine".
The "duty to flee" is only in what we refer to as "commie states". However the spread of Castle Doctrine started when an old man was attacked in his trailer and shot an intruder. The trailer had one small window that would have taken a more athletic sort to "flee" through. This incident occured in Florida, as I recall. Telling old people that they have to flee - when lacking the ability to do so, opened a can of worms because, and I know this as a firearms instructor, there is a lot of harm that can come within the 7 meter zone. The time it takes to turn and run inside of a threat that is within 7 meters is the same amount of time it takes for a threat to close that distance.
I must add that it's also the same amount of time for the average person to draw a weapon from a concealed holster though I can get most of my team down to around .9 but I knew a guy who did merc work for IDF who can do that in .9 starting with an empty chamber but that's another story...
So the problem with "duty to flee" was that you had to wait until it was confirmed that a threat was going to bring bodily harm in any form.
So Castle Doctrine was passed in Florida, the same state to be first to have Shall Issue Concealed Carry permits for guns and other weapons. Under common law freemen openly bearing arms is permissable but concealed carry never existed in common law or old English law as it was considered the ways of cutthroats and robbers - that's the basis for concealed carry permits (unless you live in Vermont).
Funny though, when CCWP passed in Florida in 1987, the usuall suspect claimed that people were going to be killing each other over parking spots and yet homicide rates dropped roughly 30 percent. Many other states followed.
Castle Doctrine had the same accusations, that people are going to shoot willy nilly and there were even adds taken out in major newspapers telling people that Florida was going to be a dangerous place. This was incorrect, and their portrayal of Castle Doctrine - that someone who simply "feels threatened" can kill you - was also incorrect.
(Currently in the USA, the only people who can kill by merely "feeling threatened" and get away with it are the police - and they always claim that to cover their asses.)
So under Castle Doctrine you still have to prove that indeed you didn't just feel threatened but someone who pulls a weapon and says "I'm gonna kill you!" even outside of 7 meters and you can gun them down, even outside of the house. But if they were insulting or simply being an ass and unarmed (and/or not out-weighing you by a couple hundred pounds), you will be going to jail (probably for homicide or 3rd degree murder).
Now, in reality, the concept of ones house "being like embassies or something" goes back to common law and was one of the things the English fought for many years ago back when they were not so servile and sheep like. Countries where intruders get shot - even ones with badges, always did better.
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Sarulin Farii
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:45:00 -
[17]
Hopefully you don't want their police aswell ( :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7u91A3KGQ
it is |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
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Posted - 2011.06.23 20:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer on 23/06/2011 20:48:17
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Citizens do not decide the law, governments and courts do.
That is incorrect. The basis of trial law, also going back to common law, was that a juror has the right to judge both the case and the law.
Judges giving juries strict instructions how how to deliberate, on what they can deliberate, etc, is actually against the original intent of the court system.
Heck one reason why I bother with political conventions is to hit the judges up when they are stumping to get elected, and they always say at the end (if they don't see me in the crowd) "Any questions?".
Then I ask them if they believe in the rights of the jury to judge both the case and the law. They usually give a non-answer and find some way to finish up and leave. One tried to have some goons from his campaign intimidate me (didn't work).
If you think I am wrong, then try this (but be advised that I had two friends nearly get arrested for this). Go to the nearest County Seat or city court complex and legally - public place, no noise, stick to the sidewalk, etc. - try to hand out pamphlets on Jury Nullification.
See what happens to you. Judges live in fear of this because every time they boss a jury around, they are breaking the law.
And the very idea of people having the power to deem a law (passed by people who think they lord over us) to be too stupid so as to send people to prison (profitable and privatized ones owned by fat cats who give money to politicians to pass more laws and "mandatory minimum sentence laws) really bothers those people who inhabit smokey backrooms and like "the system" just as it is now.
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Gangus
Minmatar
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2011.06.23 21:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Originally by: Gangus
P.S. Regarding my own position on the "wrong side" of the law, it's been due to possession of substances that affect only myself, not anything that was causing any harm to others. You break into a house, you deserve whatever you get. A person has every right to feel safe in their own home.
Substance abuse is not a victimless crime, sure you may not have broken the law in any other way than possessing the illegal drugs but as a user you are one critical piece in a long chain of crime, violence, bribery and smuggling.
This may be true in many cases (e.g. where is the long chain of crime when you're growing your own weed for personal use?) but my main point was the comparison between the personal affront of directly attacking someone/house breaking in order to profit from it and ingesting a substance that affects only oneself. There is a big difference (in my opinion) in the positions between a lawbreaker who is willing to cause direct harm to another for profit, and one who is simply wanting to alter their state of mind, and not inflict any harm upon others.
Also, as a side argument, only reason there is organised crime involvement in the drug trade is due to the profits to be made due to it's illegal status. Legalising many drugs would remove this link between drugs and crime, and I believe it would also empty many prisons around the world as a massive proportion of prisoners are there simply due to drug offences. Legalisation of things like pot and ****** would enable a system whereby governments could control quality and purity, and also recieve taxation benefits, all while removing a lucrative earner for criminals. It would also remove the incentive for many crimes, as it would be a simple matter of buying a shot of ****** at a local pharmacy for $5, rather than needing to steal $100's per day to fuel one's habit.
I hate it when it's not clear when someone's sig begins.
Never mess with a guy in an ugly ship, he's got nothing to lose |
spongebobbb
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.23 21:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Desya Dak'ann
In England, a man's house is his castle.
and also in england it dosnt even belong to you, the government can take it away, if and when they want, and there nothing you can do to stop them. for EG if they want to build somting on that land, you gotta let them buy it or they chuck you out and give you a pittance.
the land of the free!!!!
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.24 02:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gangus
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
Originally by: Gangus
P.S. Regarding my own position on the "wrong side" of the law, it's been due to possession of substances that affect only myself, not anything that was causing any harm to others. You break into a house, you deserve whatever you get. A person has every right to feel safe in their own home.
Substance abuse is not a victimless crime, sure you may not have broken the law in any other way than possessing the illegal drugs but as a user you are one critical piece in a long chain of crime, violence, bribery and smuggling.
This may be true in many cases (e.g. where is the long chain of crime when you're growing your own weed for personal use?) but my main point was the comparison between the personal affront of directly attacking someone/house breaking in order to profit from it and ingesting a substance that affects only oneself. There is a big difference (in my opinion) in the positions between a lawbreaker who is willing to cause direct harm to another for profit, and one who is simply wanting to alter their state of mind, and not inflict any harm upon others.
Also, as a side argument, only reason there is organised crime involvement in the drug trade is due to the profits to be made due to it's illegal status. Legalising many drugs would remove this link between drugs and crime, and I believe it would also empty many prisons around the world as a massive proportion of prisoners are there simply due to drug offences. Legalisation of things like pot and ****** would enable a system whereby governments could control quality and purity, and also recieve taxation benefits, all while removing a lucrative earner for criminals. It would also remove the incentive for many crimes, as it would be a simple matter of buying a shot of ****** at a local pharmacy for $5, rather than needing to steal $100's per day to fuel one's habit.
I am in total agreement with you, governments sink huge amounts of money into "the war on drugs" and its a total waste of time. If governments where not so stubborn about it and drugs where available legally it would wipe billions off the income of the the various people around the world who produce drugs. The farmers who live in poverty would get a better cut and better quality of life and the drugs could offered cheaply enough so addicts and users didn't cause as much as a problem for society as they do at the moment.
Hell it would be cheaper for governments to give the addicts the damn drugs instead of all the money they have to sink into the penal system, border security and law enforcement to deal with the drugs "problem". The police would be able to concentrate on other crimes and it would free prison spaces and generally reduce the pressure on the whole criminal justice system.
Everyone wouldn't become addicts or users overnight and the governments could tax it and the industry would become legit. The huge mountain of cash would end up in the hands of legitimate business and would create jobs instead of pouring into the hands of the Taliban or insurgents and cartels in south America.
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Mutant Caldari
Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.24 07:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran
I wish we had the the self defense laws as the US.
The self defense laws in the States are a joke, as is the legal system. I've learned this first hand since May 27th of last year. 
Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it?
Killboard link is not allowed to be used in a signature.Applebabe
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Creepy Goat
Collateral.
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:45:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Creepy Goat on 24/06/2011 11:52:24
This actually happened a couple of years ago as well. A young guy (23 I think) was visiting his mum when thieves broke into her house and threatened her, the son grabbed a knife and got into a struggle with the theives, killing one by severing an artery in his shoulder.
He was due to stand trail for over a year and honestly believed he would end up in prison. It seriously ****ed with his head, not only having killed a man but that he could have his entire life ruined, just for protecting his mum.
He finally had the charges dropped (last year I beleive) after re-interviewing the other burglar. Funny that the main witness for the case was a criminal with a violent history. Heh.
e; ammended post, some parts were wrong. Full article here
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Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:51:00 -
[24]
USA's war on drugs is a total absolute failure. And will continue to be so they see the issue as a hammer to hit everything as if it was a nail.
Other countries that have 'harm reduction' health measures - syringe access and treatment with substitute medications like methadone have 5x less HIV infection between drug users.
Many that are taking part in the illegal drug market that are 'mules' are themselves the victims of violence and intimidation. Unlike those in charge of trafficking 'mules' do not usually have an extensive and violent criminal history.
European countries that have adopted ****** substitution or prescribed ****** programs instead of criminalization see a reduction in ****** use andcriminal behavior. In particular Holland has seen a third reduction in total number of ****** users through adopting these policies.
The USA practices 'drug control imperialism'. The Bolivian government wanted to allow people to chew coca leafs from a 1961 convention that banned 'non medical uses'. The practice of coca leaf chewing has none of the harms of international ******* markets. Bolivia and neighboring nations supported this change but '******* consumer' countries led by the US objected to an amendment of the 1961 convention.
Many US politicians know that repressive strategies will not solve the drug problem but won't articulate these views. Countries that enact laws that have implemented widespread imprisonment of drug users and low level dealers have far higher levels of drug use and related problems than countries with more tolerant approaches.
Poor drug users are sterotyped as a 'amoral a pitiful addict' but 10% are classified as 'problem drug users'. In the middle and upper classes in the west coke has a chic image. I confess I tried coke two and three times and really enjoyed the rush It gave me. But I was fortunate not to socialize in peer groups where coke recreational use was deemed cool.
Most people involved in the illicit cultivation of coca, opium poppy or cannabis are small farmers struggling to make a living for their famalies. Alternative livlihood opportunities are better investments than destroying their own means of survival.
The factors that contribute to the development of problematic or dependent patterns of use have more to do with childhood trauma or neglect, harsh living conditions, social marginalization and emotional problems, rather than moral weakness of hedonism.
Resources would be better spent on fighting the core of drug trafficking organizations and their supply chains than criminalizing the 'mules' and drug users themselves.
In many parts of the world the violence, intimidation and corruption perpetrated by these groups is a significant threat to individual and national security and to democratic institutions. Efforts to curtail their activities remain essential.
It is very hard to fight entrenched drug cartel interests in countries like Columbia but supply reduction efforts can be effective in a new and undeveloped market. Which is the case in West Africa.
However going at drug cartels in a poorly thought out way can result in am 'arms race' where the most ruthless and dangerous drug traffickers prevail.
~ All of this is from the UN war on drugs report. Which will explain the better than normal grammar in this post
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Fortress Of Solitude |
Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.24 15:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Oosel
what a pain it was getting in to work this morning because of this. one of our guys lives right opposite where it happened and he cant couldnt get in his house as it was closed off as part of the crime scene....
That would suck if the cops told you "sorry you cannot go home tonight its a crime scene across the street" and I bet the city would not even get you a hotel either or let you collect stuff like your laptop so you could play EVE from a wifi hotspot.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.24 15:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vogue
Post
Good post, have you got a link to the report by any chance?
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Holy One
Quiet.Storm
Frater Adhuc Excessum
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Posted - 2011.06.24 19:31:00 -
[27]
If I find a desperate hoodie in my house at night: imma shank him till he stops screaming hug him. GL with the court case gais. The law is an ass! :Os
BBQ makes me hungry for more... |
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